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The foundry and controlling the influx of overpowered gear

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  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 5,050,278Member Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2011
    baraquel wrote: »
    Is there anything in place that will prevent user made content from flooding the game with an abundance of overpowered equipment? One of my biggest problems with DDO is how silly the magic item overload is. I understand that Forgotten Realms is high magic, but not every level 5 fighter should run around with a +5 Blade of Dancing.

    It really all depends. If loot obtained via foundry quest is based on the same loot tables available in standard Cryptic-made quests, then it really won't be much of a problem.

    One way to control this is to limit opportunites for loot to be gained only from what is in the mission. For example, a treasure chest, a fallen enemy, etc. No special loot rewards for completing the mission.

    And it should only be standard loot. Foundry missions will be the most common missions in the game. Cryptic will not be able to churn out content faster than the community will. So I would like to see the best lootable gear come from official content.

    But under no circumstances should foundry authors be able to determine specific loot rewards. To be able to do so would open up the door to highly exploitable mechanics.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 5,050,278Member Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2011
    I used a mutation a of Silicon Scouts treasure system. converted it to sql and made a treasure database table to control loot. It did not matter what powerful loot my builders tried to put in if it wasnt entered into the table via open office it didn't show up in the persistant world.

    I can see Cryptic doing something like this in nevewinter. The treasure will have to be controlled whenver players are able to interact with eachother.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 5,050,278Member Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2011
    Play STO's Foundry content.

    It's clear that overpowered gear in the Foundry isn't an issue at all, when better gear can be earned faster in other portions of the game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 5,050,278Member Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2011
    Play STO's Foundry content.

    It's clear that overpowered gear in the Foundry isn't an issue at all, when better gear can be earned faster in other portions of the game.

    Most specifically in Cryptics featured episodes. They are pure win on so many levels. Intriguing storylines, New and awesome environments. New loot rewards each week of a series and a limited edition reward at the end of the series.

    It is my hope that this is the nature of Cryptic's campaign modules. Let the Foundry authors create the meat of the average gameplay. If the real gear comes from regularly released official modules, then there will always be something to look forward to, AND there will always be something to do...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 5,050,278Member Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2011
    It really all depends. If loot obtained via foundry quest is based on the same loot tables available in standard Cryptic-made quests, then it really won't be much of a problem.

    One way to control this is to limit opportunites for loot to be gained only from what is in the mission. For example, a treasure chest, a fallen enemy, etc. No special loot rewards for completing the mission.

    And it should only be standard loot. Foundry missions will be the most common missions in the game. Cryptic will not be able to churn out content faster than the community will. So I would like to see the best lootable gear come from official content.

    But under no circumstances should foundry authors be able to determine specific loot rewards. To be able to do so would open up the door to highly exploitable mechanics.

    Then why have the foundry. The an entire concept of Dungeons and Dragons revolves around a Dungeon Master deciding what is appropriate for this players. If the foundry is just a way you can organize some tilesets and throw in some mission text and objectives, than its a waste of time. If this game isn't going to be actually true to Dungeons and Dragons, and is just going to be generic fantasy RPG number 5432 but with some basic user created missions, its an utter failure.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 5,050,278Member Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2011
    malakili wrote: »
    Then why have the foundry. The an entire concept of Dungeons and Dragons revolves around a Dungeon Master deciding what is appropriate for this players. If the foundry is just a way you can organize some tilesets and throw in some mission text and objectives, than its a waste of time. If this game isn't going to be actually true to Dungeons and Dragons, and is just going to be generic fantasy RPG number 5432 but with some basic user created missions, its an utter failure.

    I was waiting for someone to say pretty much what you just said.

    Look at it this way. If Foundry Authors had direct control of xp payout and loot payouts, then they could conceivably put a chest in a room stick whatever they want in it and use it to fully deck out their friends with the best gear. Or give them a 1 million GP reward, or an XP payout that would take the player all the way to maximum level.

    You have to remember that this is the internet. Not everyone who plays an online game does so to experience the content. You have people who look for every little way to exploit legitimate gameplay functionality to get the absolute best. And when you give players the freedom to create content and designate the rewards, then you get instant gratification kiddies looking for and finding freebies.

    It's being done to a degree with Star Trek Online's foundry missions, though Cryptic removes them when they find them.

    Here's a compromise on the issue. A DM could be allowed to set rewards and put whatever they want into chests. However, the foundry system should read what those things are and require that apropriate challenges are seeded and when overcome, a mob drops the key to the chest. Also, certain powerful loot should have a level and/or class requirement attached to it, and if a foundry author puts said loot into his quest, it would automatically require that the player be of that level and/or class.

    The mobs that are placed in the quest should also dictate the level requirement.

    I would rather players flock to my module because they like the story I am telling than because it gives them an easy road to max level/gear.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 5,050,278Member Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2011
    You need to remember that before any player made content goes into the game it has to be approved by a board assigned to examine them.

    I am pretty sure that there will be criteria they are looking for including gear play ability and appropriate content.

    I can't imagine what they will do if pws are allowed. I imagine there will need to be a lot thought put into anything they decide.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 5,050,278Member Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2011
    The argument that builders/DMs should be able to build and do what they want with loot, etc. is a moot issue as this is a shared world. In a shared world you have to stay within the rules for the world, including magic, loot, xp, etc.

    If Cryptic creates the ability to create persistant worlds (they mentioned maybe having virtual ones) then I would agree that the DM/Builder should be able to do what they want in their mod. However, I hope that if they do this the characters that play on those servers are forever locked on them. I do not want a character to play in a monty haul module/world then go back to the generic one.

    Once you go Virtual PW you should never be able to take that character back.

    I have seen too much cheating in NWN PWs to think that they will all be fair, etc.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 5,050,278Member Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2011
    Play STO's Foundry content.

    It's clear that overpowered gear in the Foundry isn't an issue at all, when better gear can be earned faster in other portions of the game.
    Most specifically in Cryptics featured episodes. They are pure win on so many levels. Intriguing storylines, New and awesome environments. New loot rewards each week of a series and a limited edition reward at the end of the series.

    It is my hope that this is the nature of Cryptic's campaign modules. Let the Foundry authors create the meat of the average gameplay. If the real gear comes from regularly released official modules, then there will always be something to look forward to, AND there will always be something to do...
    Pretty much this.

    Neverwinter will likely have premium modules by the developers for purchase (in exchange for no monthly sub). These will likely bestow better xp and rewards.

    Leveling to 10 isn't that involved to begin with either, the bulk of the game might be spent there.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 5,050,278Member Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2011
    Look at it this way. If Foundry Authors had direct control of xp payout and loot payouts, then they could conceivably put a chest in a room stick whatever they want in it and use it to fully deck out their friends with the best gear. Or give them a 1 million GP reward, or an XP payout that would take the player all the way to maximum level.

    As tlantl pointed out any player made content has to be approved by the gatekeepers before it is let into the game. I mean what would otherwise prevent players from creating a dungeon where a horde of enemies is placed next to the spawn point. Go in, kill all, loot, repeat.

    It also applies to griefing. What prevents players from creating a room filled with so many traps, or deadly enemies, that any player stepping inside will die instantly? Gatekeepers I presume.

    Finally if we get too paranoid about stuff like this Foundry will lose a lot features that actually make it worthwhile for content creators. No custom placement of enemies/chests/rewards because they can be exploited, no NPC allies because those can be exploited, no turning hazards against dungeon denizens because that can be exploited, no granting buffs/boons to players because those can be exploited etc etc.

    Not everyone is going to be satisfied with "read/skip walls of text, go in, kill all, repeat" style of gameplay. For example for me it is basically the opposite of what any interesting adventure is about, though I do realise there are going to be people for whom it is exactly what they are looking for.

    Anyhow. If we get down to it. Who really is going to be hurt if someone ends up creating "level instantly to max level" dungeon or "get epic loot" dungeon? This is no MMO after all. No reason to compete. I think the only ones hurt will be the people who exploit fun out of the game for themselves. It is likely that loot is level restricted anyways.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 5,050,278Member Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2011
    I was waiting for someone to say pretty much what you just said.

    Look at it this way. If Foundry Authors had direct control of xp payout and loot payouts, then they could conceivably put a chest in a room stick whatever they want in it and use it to fully deck out their friends with the best gear. Or give them a 1 million GP reward, or an XP payout that would take the player all the way to maximum level.

    You have to remember that this is the internet. Not everyone who plays an online game does so to experience the content. You have people who look for every little way to exploit legitimate gameplay functionality to get the absolute best. And when you give players the freedom to create content and designate the rewards, then you get instant gratification kiddies looking for and finding freebies.

    It's being done to a degree with Star Trek Online's foundry missions, though Cryptic removes them when they find them.

    Here's a compromise on the issue. A DM could be allowed to set rewards and put whatever they want into chests. However, the foundry system should read what those things are and require that apropriate challenges are seeded and when overcome, a mob drops the key to the chest. Also, certain powerful loot should have a level and/or class requirement attached to it, and if a foundry author puts said loot into his quest, it would automatically require that the player be of that level and/or class.

    The mobs that are placed in the quest should also dictate the level requirement.

    I would rather players flock to my module because they like the story I am telling than because it gives them an easy road to max level/gear.


    Why should Cryptic dictate what is an appropriate challenge. They've said this isn't an MMORPG. If thats so, then competitive balance doesn't matter. If some guys want to cheese their way to max level and full "epic" gear, fine, what the hell do I care. I want a game that lets me move a PnP group online (I'm willing to make SOME concessions obviously, an editor can never match imagination). Cryptic shouldn't be able to dictate how our group plays.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 5,050,278Member Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2011

    Here's a compromise on the issue. A DM could be allowed to set rewards and put whatever they want into chests. However, the foundry system should read what those things are and require that apropriate challenges are seeded and when overcome, a mob drops the key to the chest. Also, certain powerful loot should have a level and/or class requirement attached to it, and if a foundry author puts said loot into his quest, it would automatically require that the player be of that level and/or class.

    The mobs that are placed in the quest should also dictate the level requirement.


    There's actually better ways to do it. Players earn loot points as they progress thru the dungeon to the final "boss chest". (The better loot drops from a certain table)

    Upon opening the end chest, it recalls points earned in dungeon, - any traps triggered, deaths, mistakes etc and comes up with a loot table to match based on time, level / exp and number of players and perhaps even further into that.

    That's just for the boss chest, other chests and loot drawers can have less simple algorithms
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 5,050,278Member Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2011
    Bugmaster wrote:
    There's actually better ways to do it. Players earn loot points as they progress thru the dungeon to the final "boss chest". (The better loot drops from a certain table)

    Upon opening the end chest, it recalls points earned in dungeon, - any traps triggered, deaths, mistakes etc and comes up with a loot table to match based on time, level / exp and number of players and perhaps even further into that.

    That's just for the boss chest, other chests and loot drawers can have less simple algorithms

    This is something that might actually work, but only as long as the game is the one that determines what and how much loot there is.
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