Mechanics not finished during the p2 are transitioning to p3 and killing people. Maybe add invunerabily for 2s and cleanense all effects
Halaster Charges sometimes connect to dead people in the ground.
Valindra & stormvald: Sometimes ice will appear in a location where there is noone. No clue if someone was trapped but showed outsdie due to desync, but there is no player tag on it
Stormvald hypo mechanic can target people that have miasma at same time
Stormvald is only doing the ice mechanic once
Not sure if is a bug: But necrotic slam from P4 is hitting twice.
Obliterate, Telikinesis, and Withering Ray were fixed to not carry over into Phase 3.
Magnetic Attraction targeting dead people has been fixed
Storvald should now use his Permafrost regularly
Oooof, yeah I was wondering why Slam was killing the tanks so handily. Double damage has been fixed.
before the explosion you can see that there is no debuff in Bonk
however moments after is occuring around the player Bonk as well on me
It was clear 2 hits, one for 614419 and another for 254949. The damage was shielded because i use avalanched of steel (which bugged because the necrotic blast occured during the windup animation of the skill). Additionally it proc ealier than 20s, and proc again at the end of the 20s.
And here are two examples of occuring on me while I dont have the debuff icon.
Here, 2 beams shot out properly, but another shot out about 75 seconds after. I can also say that sometimes Necrotic Blast detonates on a person even if they do not have a debuff, did not get damaged over time, did not have a pink beam from the boss hit them, or anything like that. Seems to only happen in Phase 1, did not see it happening in Phase 2 or later.
Here is a clip example of this P1 just one mirror got delayed, and it counted as hit (verified by hp on tank going down and my dodge status)
Our party almost get to last phase, but we struggling with some very annoying bug on phase 4 which have critical value if you wanna pass this phase: Hypo sometimes deal more damage than it should ,as well ,as necrotic slam on this phase. We tested and 3 people enough to survive 1 hypo , there 9 peoples and also saves.I almost didn't get damaged ,but 2 other dps from my group died, no debuffs on them.If purple artifact spawn - this restart run. 0:24 timing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRvPNDJFmTI
Our party almost get to last phase, but we struggling with some very annoying bug on phase 4 which have critical value if you wanna pass this phase: Hypo sometimes deal more damage than it should ,as well ,as necrotic slam on this phase. We tested and 3 people enough to survive 1 hypo , there 9 peoples and also saves.I almost didn't get damaged ,but 2 other dps from my group died, no debuffs on them.If purple artifact spawn - this restart run. 0:24 timing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRvPNDJFmTI
Overlapping soaks are intended to kill, the bug here is that it didn't kill everyone.
Slam was doing far more damage than intended and that's been corrected.
The Trial will be made available again this weekend for additional testing. We're planning for the same time frames as the last test, 3pm PT on Friday to 3pm PT on Monday.
Slightly reduced the rotation speed of Gzemnid's powers
Reduced Halaster and Palhavorithyn's hp
Reduced Tiamat and Demogorgon's hp
Slightly reduced the rotation speed of Halaster's powers
Taking too long in the Hallucination (Phase 3) will now lead to bad things
Fixed an issue where the Mirror artifacts weren't always using their Energy Beams right away when summoned
Slightly increased the amount of time before the Mirror Artifacts use Energy Beam
Slightly reduced the hp of Phase 1 minibosses
Removed the Charge power from the Minotaur boss
Minotaur boss will now put much more focus on the tank and his move speed has been increased
Reduced the damage of the Minotaur's Chop and Cleave attacks
Fixed an issue where Zariel's Sword Clusters weren't rendering
Reduced the resource drains on the Draining Artifact
Reduced the damage on the Atropal's soak power
Increased the damage on Valindra's soak power
Reduced the damage of Gaseous Expulsion
Halaster's Magnetic Attraction will no longer target dead players
Halaster will now align Permafrost with Whiteout
Fixed an issue where Gzemnid's Slam attack was dealing its damage twice
Reduced the hp of Gelatinous Cubes
Fixed an issue where the final DoT tick of Withering Ray would overlap with its expiration detonation
Removed collision from objects hovering around the ceiling
The debuff from colliding Magnetic Attraction is now cleansed at the campfire
Telekinesis Ray, Obliterate, and Chains of Undeath are now cleansed when entering Phase 3
Possibly Fixed: *These are issues I couldn't reproduce but made changes that will potentially fix the problem
Storvald's Duumvirate should no longer have situations where it is aimed away from the intended target
Artifacts should no longer be able to be relocated
Some adjustments were made to improve the Chains of Undeath to better repel players apart when they are in close proximity upon it being applied. Additionally, the distance to trigger the explosion was slightly lowered and the grace period before the explosion can occur was increased. Let me know if this is still an ongoing problem as dodging during activation can cause weird behavior that is hard to control.
Made some adjustments that should prevent situations where Withering Ray is applied to a target but they don't have the debuff
Known Issues:
Overlapping Gzemnid's Soak power does not always do the intended damage to all affected targets.
Gzemnid can cast Chains of Undeath while Mirror Artifacts are active, resulting in players getting repeled into Energy Beams.
Permafrost from Halaster is not always providing protection from Whiteout with correct positioning. Whiteout's damage has been adjusted to be survivable without the protection while this problem is getting resolved.
Artifacts are not playing FX when they are destroyed and are simply vanishing out of existence instead
You're currently able to cheese the Minotaur by kiting him around the arena. Though he moves quickly, when he stops to perform an attack, it gives enough time to maintain a lead distance where he won't hit you. However, I think the changes have mitigated the issue to have limited impact, because for DPS to attack him efficiently he will still have to be held still and tanked properly.
Necrotic Blast is still occuring on targets that do not have a Withering Ray debuff icon. Additionally, at one point two such icons were observed on a player simultaneously.
Once, we had a tank waiting on top of the purple artifact with the Obliterate AOE to destroy it, but then we phased to P3. We were all teleported to the same position as part of the phase transition, and Obliterate detonated on the whole group. The purple artifact debuff was still active (Obliterate was teleported away from the artifact and could not destroy it, and the phase transition had not (yet) cleared the debuff). This resulted in mass permadeath and a wipe.
Storvald is casting Permafrost on companions, not just players.
Valindra's Defiling Beam can occur at the same time as Storvald's Winter's Fury, and with 4 people covering runes for the latter mechanic, the Defiling Beam becomes too much for the remaining players. Both mechanics feel balanced on an individual basis.
Getting turned into a chicken during phase 3 with Halaster and Palha is very frustrating as a Healer, when you cannot do anything, but watch your Tank die. Heatwave seems to hit for a bit much with this combo too.
We had Atropal activate the push-pull mechanic without any animation.
We've had the green line "chains of Undeath" brought into phase 3, and since your bunched together, it immediately kills people.
Necrotic Blast is still occuring on targets that do not have a Withering Ray debuff icon. Additionally, at one point two such icons were observed on a player simultaneously.
One thing I saw that may lead to necrotic explosion casting without the wintering ray debuff is when the player dies with the withering ray debuff and ressurect before the explosion. Also sometimes when cleansethe withering ray debuff the necrotic blast will cast twice: one when it gets cleansed and another during the normal expire time (it sounds that event necrotic blast isnt getting removed from the queue).
Additionally the dispite the player not getting the debuff, in one instance I saw the withering ray being applied to me but didnt apply the debuff, however 20s later I had the necrotic blast explosion
You're currently able to cheese the Minotaur by kiting him around the arena. Once, we had a tank waiting on top of the purple artifact with the Obliterate AOE to destroy it, but then we phased to P3. We were all teleported to the same position as part of the phase transition, and Obliterate detonated on the whole group. The purple artifact debuff was still active (Obliterate was teleported away from the artifact and could not destroy it, and the phase transition had not (yet) cleared the debuff). This resulted in mass permadeath and a wipe. :
Good afternoon. The trial is amazing! My group loves it. So far we have reached phase 5. Even so, we have a problem that we cannot understand. Last week we put the eyes together with the wizards' singu to be able to remove both at the same time. Because the red area to remove one of the eyes appears too soon and we can only eliminate one eye with the second area that appears. This is on purpose and we are forced to add a permanent debuff or is there a way to remove the two eyes from phase two?
Good afternoon. The trial is amazing! My group loves it. So far we have reached phase 5. Even so, we have a problem that we cannot understand. Last week we put the eyes together with the wizards' singu to be able to remove both at the same time. Because the red area to remove one of the eyes appears too soon and we can only eliminate one eye with the second area that appears. This is on purpose and we are forced to add a permanent debuff or is there a way to remove the two eyes from phase two?
Pretty sure the intention is for the players chosse only one of the eyes, since lassor already said in one of the fixes is for them not to move.
Phase 5 starts when the second set of beholders show up, so you probably saw that during phase 4, 3 eyes will spawn and both tanks will have the circles to elminated it, so you will have choose which one of the 3 you will permantly have.
Uncontrollable Turmoil is still hitting very hard. It appears to not be splitting the damage between players.
Player alone in soak, crit no deflect
Group together in soak, no crit no deflect:
Edit: It is also hitting the area where it first targeted a player. After the player moves, the player continues to have the FX for the soak but it still hits that original area whether the targeted player is there or not.
Uncontrollable Turmoil is still hitting very hard. It appears to not be splitting the damage between players.
I found the problem and it's now fixed internally. Technically it is splitting damage but not in a meaningful way. For the current build, your best option is to sacrifice the targeted team member, which it seems that teams are already doing that I've been watching.
After Halaster returned to the platform in P3 with Death From Above, I was unable to move him from the center of the platform throughout the entirety of the subsequent "ice phase" he did, so people had difficulty hitting him as a result of the dragon's hitbox.
There seem to have been some major bugs introduced with the fixes
If you are perma dead but have not released, you are brought back to life from P3 to P4
An artifact (I think Wand of Domination) causes Gzemnid to cancel the mechanic he is doing, like not detonating Immolation Blast or initiating mirrors
Players can still get stuck in the ceiling objects
Necrotic Blast still has issues detonating on people who were not hit by Withering Ray/had no icon
Atropal + Zariel seems to get off sync with the 2nd cycle, causing runes to detonate DURING the pull part of pull/push, but this may be caused by Wand of Domination canceling stuff
Charges can form on people who released back to campfire
Gelatinous Cubes are not consistently trapping people fast
Withering Ray can expire at the same time Immolation Blast explodes, leading to unavoidable deaths, either they stay away and die to Immolation Blast alone, or they group up and everyone dies from the combined damage.
It seems like the Hypo mechanic of Ghezmid can crit which makes double hypo extremely unpredictable, sometimes 4 people per hypo group is enough, sometimes it is not, and there is no way to tell beforehand.
Obliteration Wave and blue swirl can sometimes still carry over into the Phase 3 transition.
Halaster and Palhavorithyn can get stuck in the middle of the platform
Halaster Permafrost isn't properly blocking damage sometimes
The changes to Minotaur make him much more interesting, good job there, but he could probably use more health since the minibosses got their health reduced
Gzemnid seems to lock onto a target during the 2 second grace period and then use his attack on that target after the two seconds pass even if aggro switches, not sure if this is intended or a bug The artifacts are still unequal in impact, Draining and Soulshatter are still by far the worst, Hastening doesn't feel very impactful, and Weakening isn't too noticeable. My opinion will likely change since I haven't reached final phase to see how steep the DPS check is.
Even with the Atropal bug fix the Phase 3 bosses aren't even in difficulty. Valindra + Storvald is on the easy side, maybe increase the damage miasma does to make it more threatening Halaster + Palhavorithyn mechanics can easily lead to multiple deaths, but their health may be a bit low Demogorgon + Tiamat is more of a race against the clock rather than a mechanically interesting fight, a very strong group doesn't have many difficulties, could change mechanics to make it more interesting Zariel still attacks during pull/push which makes it hard for tanks and healers to keep up, she also seems to do tank swap during 2nd pull/push which is a pretty stupid, but that could have been caused by desync.
Phase 4 beholders seem to retain aggro across the arena and can hit targets across the arena which means that tanks can sometimes be getting hit by 2 Disintegration Rays and Immolation Blast at the same time, there should probably be a maximum range to their abilities.
Still a ton of fun and even better now that music is added, Kevin Manthei did a great job
Have just completed the trial. DPS check was intense Accidentally I as a paladin was rewarded with a rogue weapon, had no choice to pass it to the actual rogue. Is it normal? Quiestion solved
Some unfair combinations of mechanics I've experienced leading to unavoidable deaths in Phases 1 and 2:
- Ettercap miniboss can pull you in front of the mirror last second; - The same player can be targeted by both Withering ray and Red fire ray. Two dots are a bit too much to survive even with timing the health stone. That is especially unfair when the Red ray targets you 2-3 seconds before Necrotic Blast detonates. - Chains of Undeath can still push you in front of the mirror; - Mr. Minotaur's Axe Throw can push you in front of the mirror. This one is debatable, as you can immunity-frame this attack, however it's almost impossible to tell which player exactly is being targeted by it. - Gaseous Expulsion can still be carried from P2 into P3, leading to everyone but tanks dying immediately.
Tiamat & demorgorgon feels it has more hp than the other bosses combinations, maybe is due the delusion debuffs Zariel sword cluster attacks are still targeting a different person that has the lines Withering Blast is still occuring in players without the debuff Withering Blast still happens after the 20s expiration time, despite being cleansed by a bard (it exploders when cleansed and when 20s ends) Killing Bosses in P3 when the 5 Beholders are up to not progress us to Phase 4: https://clips.twitch.tv/DoubtfulHardCobraPraiseIt-9u9urkuLfCJ8FJqS Buttercup miniboss (Ettercap) is pulling people during mirror beams and killing them IF you get charged (lightning mechanic) while turned in a chicken you cannot see which charge you have
Sometimes Duumvirate remains on tank after killing Storvald (must be killed last in combo) and goes to P4, laying stun on tank and causing tank's wipe when the rotating fire ray strikes him. Duumvirate cannot be cleansed with healers' skills (it's ok I suppose), and there's no way to save the tank from the ray.
IMO, Ettercap yanking people is hard to fix without removing the unit. You can outplay the situation by putting yourself in the path of the beam and then have him yank you to safely, but it is tricky to remember. Axe Throw is similar to the Ettercap, he has a tell and if you are on the closer side of the safe area to him you do not get knocked back into the other beam, just need to pay good attention. Disintegration Ray + Necrotic Blast isn't an issue if healer is on top of healing whoever gets Disintegration Ray Demo + Tiamat does have the most HP out of all the boss combinations, which makes their fight a little boring since a lot of it is just whacking away at big HP pools.
Some other bugs that I have noticed in addition to the ones in my above post:
Rain of Swords from Zariel seem to go wherever they please, my bet is that they are not updating from where the person was standing initially
Like others have said, Duumvirate will keep the tank stuck into Phase 4
Chains of Undeath now cancel momentum, but they leave the players stuck for about half a second afterwards unable to move from their new position which leads to even more deaths from mirrors
Players downed by another mechanic can scroll even when the black chains on P7 pass them, not sure how often it occurs or if it was a one-time thing
Both Gaseous Expulsion can sometimes only do one hit of damage if the target is hit by both at the same time
Many of Gzemnid's powers create seemingly placeholder entities for the effect, but some of them are targetable/take damage, and others take 0 damage from players, but fill the screen with 0s
The various Artifacts, Petrifying Ray, "Artifact Target" and the underground hands in P5/P7 seem to be the abilities causing these placeholder entities, the artifacts also being damage-able
These placeholders may be causing some player items/powers to work unintentionally with counting as additional targets when they shouldn't, but it is hard to test this.
I haven't seen it happen, but I suspect Valindra's bomb can persist during the Phase 3 to 4 transition
There are some safe pockets for mirrors on the left side of the room when an safe area probably isn't meant to exist
Immolation Blast also seems to be able to critical which is probably shouldn't, raise the damage of it to compensate
Comments
here is the clip of the debuff not showing party members
https://clips.twitch.tv/StrongMiniatureLardOneHand-q-X89EG4hya-3xhz
before the explosion you can see that there is no debuff in Bonk
however moments after is occuring around the player Bonk as well on me
It was clear 2 hits, one for 614419 and another for 254949. The damage was shielded because i use avalanched of steel (which bugged because the necrotic blast occured during the windup animation of the skill). Additionally it proc ealier than 20s, and proc again at the end of the 20s.
And here are two examples of occuring on me while I dont have the debuff icon.
https://clips.twitch.tv/SucculentCloudyOpossumRuleFive-F3c2dcOq4eolEX5B
https://clips.twitch.tv/DirtySolidStarlingHassanChop-261mNGo_Q62yk01K
Edit.: you can also see this bug happening in video posted by morgan below at 35s mark
P1 just one mirror got delayed, and it counted as hit (verified by hp on tank going down and my dodge status)
https://clips.twitch.tv/ColdbloodedOilyAmazonTwitchRaid-0OQneamRaLwQvVc3
And on P2, one side didnt fire at all
https://clips.twitch.tv/DrabLovelyHabaneroTBTacoRight-kJTI1m52R5ovD8pH
Mirrors started to behaved weird when the instance was on 3hrs+ already
Slam was doing far more damage than intended and that's been corrected.
And that is why you are our most respected dev that gave us the most interesting bosses.
.
- Slightly reduced the rotation speed of Gzemnid's powers
- Reduced Halaster and Palhavorithyn's hp
- Reduced Tiamat and Demogorgon's hp
- Slightly reduced the rotation speed of Halaster's powers
- Taking too long in the Hallucination (Phase 3) will now lead to bad things
- Fixed an issue where the Mirror artifacts weren't always using their Energy Beams right away when summoned
- Slightly increased the amount of time before the Mirror Artifacts use Energy Beam
- Slightly reduced the hp of Phase 1 minibosses
- Removed the Charge power from the Minotaur boss
- Minotaur boss will now put much more focus on the tank and his move speed has been increased
- Reduced the damage of the Minotaur's Chop and Cleave attacks
- Fixed an issue where Zariel's Sword Clusters weren't rendering
- Reduced the resource drains on the Draining Artifact
- Reduced the damage on the Atropal's soak power
- Increased the damage on Valindra's soak power
- Reduced the damage of Gaseous Expulsion
- Halaster's Magnetic Attraction will no longer target dead players
- Halaster will now align Permafrost with Whiteout
- Fixed an issue where Gzemnid's Slam attack was dealing its damage twice
- Reduced the hp of Gelatinous Cubes
- Fixed an issue where the final DoT tick of Withering Ray would overlap with its expiration detonation
- Removed collision from objects hovering around the ceiling
- The debuff from colliding Magnetic Attraction is now cleansed at the campfire
- Telekinesis Ray, Obliterate, and Chains of Undeath are now cleansed when entering Phase 3
Possibly Fixed:*These are issues I couldn't reproduce but made changes that will potentially fix the problem
- Storvald's Duumvirate should no longer have situations where it is aimed away from the intended target
- Artifacts should no longer be able to be relocated
- Some adjustments were made to improve the Chains of Undeath to better repel players apart when they are in close proximity upon it being applied. Additionally, the distance to trigger the explosion was slightly lowered and the grace period before the explosion can occur was increased. Let me know if this is still an ongoing problem as dodging during activation can cause weird behavior that is hard to control.
- Made some adjustments that should prevent situations where Withering Ray is applied to a target but they don't have the debuff
Known Issues:(will update here, if I see them get moved by it or not, when I run with this next build, tomorrow)
Have not ran into the issue of them getting moved, as of the latest build.
Necrotic Blast is still occuring on targets that do not have a Withering Ray debuff icon. Additionally, at one point two such icons were observed on a player simultaneously.
Once, we had a tank waiting on top of the purple artifact with the Obliterate AOE to destroy it, but then we phased to P3. We were all teleported to the same position as part of the phase transition, and Obliterate detonated on the whole group. The purple artifact debuff was still active (Obliterate was teleported away from the artifact and could not destroy it, and the phase transition had not (yet) cleared the debuff). This resulted in mass permadeath and a wipe.
Storvald is casting Permafrost on companions, not just players.
Valindra's Defiling Beam can occur at the same time as Storvald's Winter's Fury, and with 4 people covering runes for the latter mechanic, the Defiling Beam becomes too much for the remaining players. Both mechanics feel balanced on an individual basis.
Surprise Beholder Bingo did not disappoint
Heatwave seems to hit for a bit much with this combo too.
We had Atropal activate the push-pull mechanic without any animation.
We've had the green line "chains of Undeath" brought into phase 3, and since your bunched together, it immediately kills people.
One thing I saw that may lead to necrotic explosion casting without the wintering ray debuff is when the player dies with the withering ray debuff and ressurect before the explosion. Also sometimes when cleansethe withering ray debuff the necrotic blast will cast twice: one when it gets cleansed and another during the normal expire time (it sounds that event necrotic blast isnt getting removed from the queue).
Additionally the dispite the player not getting the debuff, in one instance I saw the withering ray being applied to me but didnt apply the debuff, however 20s later I had the necrotic blast explosion
https://clips.twitch.tv/PunchyTiredGullStoneLightning-SFWIvOxDpIWJT_tl
Phase 5 starts when the second set of beholders show up, so you probably saw that during phase 4, 3 eyes will spawn and both tanks will have the circles to elminated it, so you will have choose which one of the 3 you will permantly have.
Player alone in soak, crit no deflect
Group together in soak, no crit no deflect:
Edit: It is also hitting the area where it first targeted a player. After the player moves, the player continues to have the FX for the soak but it still hits that original area whether the targeted player is there or not.
https://clips.twitch.tv/SavoryArborealJuiceEagleEye-kn43wsUhQ6G6Yj5e
The changes to Minotaur make him much more interesting, good job there, but he could probably use more health since the minibosses got their health reduced
Gzemnid seems to lock onto a target during the 2 second grace period and then use his attack on that target after the two seconds pass even if aggro switches, not sure if this is intended or a bug
The artifacts are still unequal in impact, Draining and Soulshatter are still by far the worst, Hastening doesn't feel very impactful, and Weakening isn't too noticeable. My opinion will likely change since I haven't reached final phase to see how steep the DPS check is.
Even with the Atropal bug fix the Phase 3 bosses aren't even in difficulty.
Valindra + Storvald is on the easy side, maybe increase the damage miasma does to make it more threatening
Halaster + Palhavorithyn mechanics can easily lead to multiple deaths, but their health may be a bit low
Demogorgon + Tiamat is more of a race against the clock rather than a mechanically interesting fight, a very strong group doesn't have many difficulties, could change mechanics to make it more interesting
Zariel still attacks during pull/push which makes it hard for tanks and healers to keep up, she also seems to do tank swap during 2nd pull/push which is a pretty stupid, but that could have been caused by desync.
Phase 4 beholders seem to retain aggro across the arena and can hit targets across the arena which means that tanks can sometimes be getting hit by 2 Disintegration Rays and Immolation Blast at the same time, there should probably be a maximum range to their abilities.
Still a ton of fun and even better now that music is added, Kevin Manthei did a great job
P.S.: Got a video. Our teammate have tested the arti.
Accidentally I as a paladin was rewarded with a rogue weapon, had no choice to pass it to the actual rogue. Is it normal?Quiestion solvedhttps://clips.twitch.tv/EmpathicTransparentTriangleDancingBanana-8zwsEQB0aMAEIv_3
- Ettercap miniboss can pull you in front of the mirror last second;
- The same player can be targeted by both Withering ray and Red fire ray. Two dots are a bit too much to survive even with timing the health stone. That is especially unfair when the Red ray targets you 2-3 seconds before Necrotic Blast detonates.
- Chains of Undeath can still push you in front of the mirror;
- Mr. Minotaur's Axe Throw can push you in front of the mirror. This one is debatable, as you can immunity-frame this attack, however it's almost impossible to tell which player exactly is being targeted by it.
- Gaseous Expulsion can still be carried from P2 into P3, leading to everyone but tanks dying immediately.
Zariel sword cluster attacks are still targeting a different person that has the lines
Withering Blast is still occuring in players without the debuff
Withering Blast still happens after the 20s expiration time, despite being cleansed by a bard (it exploders when cleansed and when 20s ends)
Killing Bosses in P3 when the 5 Beholders are up to not progress us to Phase 4: https://clips.twitch.tv/DoubtfulHardCobraPraiseIt-9u9urkuLfCJ8FJqS
Buttercup miniboss (Ettercap) is pulling people during mirror beams and killing them
IF you get charged (lightning mechanic) while turned in a chicken you cannot see which charge you have
Axe Throw is similar to the Ettercap, he has a tell and if you are on the closer side of the safe area to him you do not get knocked back into the other beam, just need to pay good attention.
Disintegration Ray + Necrotic Blast isn't an issue if healer is on top of healing whoever gets Disintegration Ray
Demo + Tiamat does have the most HP out of all the boss combinations, which makes their fight a little boring since a lot of it is just whacking away at big HP pools.
Some other bugs that I have noticed in addition to the ones in my above post: