@eugeeco I just want fairness. I know the class deserves improvement, but making pointless comparisons doesn't help much.
In my st rotation I start with Arcane Conduit and then with Ray of Enfeeblement + 2 encounters. How much buff Magic Missile does this get? Also remember the synergy of this at-will with the weapon enchant.
Hi, I wish to report that Directed Flames feat is bugged, on both preview and live : it only hit once, whatever spell you cast after. Rimefire smolder hits sometimes only once, sometimes more, maybe depending on chill stacks reinitialization. Anyway the 1s (preview) or 12s (live) cooldowns don't work.
Moreover, if smolder has a cd, Glowing rays doesn't, meaning it will damage nearby foes anytime fire (or chill with rimefire) is added on a target. This occures on both live and preview versions.
Class Features: Swath of Destruction | 10% smolder dmg works, but 3% damage on smolder targets did not work Tested using Magic Missile (5 arcane stacks) then added smolder and continued. Magic Missile damage did not change. Tried on training room and enclave dummies. I also tried spamming Repel (no cooldown) till it was 5 stacks, then added a Smolder to compare. Again the exact same damage.
I tested these both with same powers, and Swath of Destruction seemed to debuff enemy and make it take more damage.
Repel spam test NO Swath:
Repel spam test WITH Swath:
If I'm reading it correctly, that is roughly 3% more damage after smolder is applied. I tried this without Critical Conflagration, manually adding smolder with Scorching at-will, and also automatically with class feature applying smolder on crit. Likewise, I tested with and without Directed Flames, and always got the same results.
@aday that's a good catch, I didn't notice the effectiveness went up. So it's not modifying the base damage, just the final damage (lowering target damage reduction probably). I was so used to looking at the change to Base Damage that I didn't notice the effectiveness changing.
Using a Fire Spell then a Chill Spell (Furious Immolation > Icy Terrain > Scorching Burst to maintain Smolder) Will maintain Chill, Smolder, and Rimefire Smolder ticking separately as long as you continue to use a Fire Spell once before Smolder wears off. This effect will last until the enemy dies.
This wasn't intended behavior before, is it now?
Smolder Test:
Rimefire Smolder Test:
Overview: Smolder has 1 more hit than Rimefire Smolder.
Class Setup: (notice not using Chilling Advantage. Not using Critical Conflag. Using 2 boujee feats)
Feedback: This should be intended behavior. Let me explain why.
The Added Effect for all Fire Powers states "Adds Smolder." Correct? Good. But it doesn't actually add Smolder if you're already under the effect of Chill or Rimefire Smolder(duh!). What should happen is exactly what the tooltip states. It should add the effect of Smolder, dealing damage over time independently from Rimefire Smolder. So if you're under the effect of Chill, and use a Fire Power, you'll proc Rimefire and Add Smolder because that's what Fire Powers do, right? Still allowing it's duration to be refreshed by Chill Effects. And if you want to squeeze every ounce of DPS out the class you'll want to be sure to maintain Smolder once every 5s.
Giving the player the ability and most importantly the OPTION to maximize their DPS potential at the high risk of maintaining Smolder. *cough* old-school *cough* Master Of Flames *cough*.
In the end interactions will need additional checks. Rimefire Weaving's tooltip would need adjustments allowing it to stack to 15% + giving the Arcanist back their x5 Arcane Empowerment or if under the effect of both Smolder/Rimefire Smolder - Critical Mass; Causes certain powers (Furious Immolation, Fireball) to consume Smolder + Rimefire Smolder (that are ticking independently) dealing additional X00 mag damage to the target and X00 to all targets within 20'?
Post edited by nova#2306 on
Nova - Thaumaturge Wizard Bardtholomew - Minstrel Bard Mariah Carries - Devout Cleric Darth Bane - Thaumaturge Wizard on Xbox
I tried to keep up with the posts on earlier pages, but might have missed something. Overall I understand the need to change Arcane Empowerment to counter those cd bugs but I think the goal was to make wizard better for both paragon paths. So I jumped over to the preview and tried to check all possible changes I could see. And with that in mind I made a list of suggestions that I think would benefit the class. I know there is only so much that can be done, so I tried to keep it to minimum.
Let's start with something simple, like problems: - animation is often stuck for several powers (mostly at-wills); - cast time of powers takes too long to actually see benefits of them (mostly AoE dailies, but also pre-change Shield encounter); - AoE powers (again, mostly dailies) have weird caps for the number of targets they can affect; - and lastly, magnitudes and cooldowns.
So here is a rough list of changes for at-wills, encounters and dailies:
At-wills: Name | Live magnitude | Proposed changes - Magic Missile | 40 | 55; - Ray of Frost | 55 | 65; - Storm Pillar | 30-80 | 50-90 and reduced cast time by 33%; - Arcane Bolt | 60 | 100 and reduced cast time by 33% for each animation; - Scorching Burst | 30-80 | 60-100 and reduced cast time by 33%; - Chilling Cloud | 65 | 75 and making all hits into AoE similar to final hit.
Note: Many of those powers can be stuck in animation after they are used (ray of frost, storm pillar, scorching burst) or player can be unable to move until animation finishes completely (magic missile), so if something could be done about it, it would be great.
Dailies: Name | Live values | Proposed changes - Arcane Singularity | radius 42', cast time 1.8s, magnitude 800 | radius 50', cast time 1.2s, magnitude 1000 - Oppresive Force | magnitude 325/375 | magnitude 450/350 - Maelstorm of Chaos | radius 8', cast time 2.13s, magnitude 600 | radius 25', cast time 1.13s, magnitude 1200 - Furious Immolation | radius 35', cast time 2s, magnitude 700 | radius 45', cast time 1.5s, magnitude 900 - Ice Storm | radius 40', cast time 1.9s, magnitude 600 | radius 45', cast time 1.4s, magnitude 1000
Note: As previously noted, many of those powers have really weird caps on the number of targets they can affect. At least it seems so after tests I've done. For example, Arcane Singularity can affect up to 6 targets, Furious Immolation pulls 3-4 and affects up to 8 and Ice Storm can affect 5 targets. As far as I know, Oppresive Force can affect up to 15 enemies. Can they please all be brought up to at least 10 targets or if possible to be the same as Oppressive Force (15 target cap)? Didn't mention Ice Knife because magnitude increase mentioned before sounds good to me and Arcane Empowerment is changing already.
Note: Some changes suggested before sounded good so I only included things I would add/change. Other that bug fixes of course. I also suggest reducing cooldowns by 1s for shorter ones and 2s for longer ones.
Ok, this was a long post. I can make another one regarding class features and feats (more of arcanist side unfortunatelly, didn't play much thaum lately).
Ok, so as mentioned here is a rough list of suggestions to class features, both arcanist and thaumaturge:
Name | Live values | Proposed changes - Arcane Presense | 0.5% per stack | 1.2% per stack; - Evocation | 10% AoE damage buff | 12% AoE damage buff; - Chilling Presence | 0.5% per stack | 1% per stack; - Orb of Imposition | Increase duration of control effects by 20% | Increase Control Bonus (stat) by 25% and deal additional damage equal to 10% of Control Bonus rating to control immune targets (total of 9% buff if Control Bonus is capped at 90%);
Note: Those are mostly value changes. Orb of Imposition was in weird spot, where no one would use it. Proposed change would open a bit more diversity for builds I think and doesn't go too far as well. After all, who builds a wizard based on Control Bonus nowadays?
Note: There could be so much more changes done for not utilised powers (such as Eye of the Storm), but given the time and resource limit, I think it's better than it was. Storm Spell was indirectly nerfed by the fix, so I think a bit of buff to compensate is in order. Arcane Power Field is supposed to be used mainly for Arcane Empowerment, as it can utilise the Arcane Mastery stacks the most, so a bit longer duration wasn't such a bad idea I think. Making Storm Fury an AoE is also something that would help while just running around and doing quests I think.
- Critical Conflagration | 10% Crit Severity, smolder on crits | 6% Crit Chance and Crit Severity, smolder on crits can grant Combat Advantage for 4s; - Swath of Destruction | Smolder deals 5% extra damage, affected targets take 2% more damage | Smolder deals 10% extra damage, affected targets take 3% more damage from all sources (party, trial group); - Frost Wave | Daily applies 3 stacks of chill and freeze targets, radius 30' | Daily applies 6 stacks of chill and freeze, radius 30', targets affected by chill deal 1% less damage per stack;
Note: As I didn't play thaumaturge for a long time, I think proposed changes does not make things weirder for cold and fire users. Buff to smolder effects (debuff, possible CA from it) are needed here in my opinion, simply because it already was made before and wasn't a bad thing. Arcanists have access to Nightmare Wizardry feat to have CA source, thaumaturges didn't have that (iirc). Now they do. Frost Wave was in weird spot, where I don't think anybody would use it, and applying debuff for chilled targets surely isn't such a bad thing, right? Didn't include Combustive Action, as I think changing 1% AP to 5% AP on kill is a nice thing.
Will make one more post about feats, but they are a bit wider topic, so I can already see not everybody to be happy with the way they are and want something diffrent for them.
Name | Live values | Proposed changes - Alacrity | Daily reduce cooldowns by 2s | Each stack of Arcane Mastery reduce cooldown of Encounter powers by 0.2s, works with feat "A Step Above Mastery"; - Spell Twisting | 4 stacks, 1% AP for stack consumed | 4 stacks, 1.5% AP for stack consumed;
- Assailing Force | 10% chance | 15% chance; - Snap Freeze | Magnitude 40 for each stack of chill | Magnitude 60 for each stack of chill, (works separately for every wizard);
- Chaos Magic | 5% chance for 5s | 7% chance for 8s; - Iced Lightning | 10% more damage vs chilled | 12% more damage vs chilled, each stack of Chill increase value by 0.5%;
- A Step Above Mastery | 10 stacks, extra 0.5% damage per stack, 10s | no change; - Elemental Reinforcement | 5% damage buff for 10s, double if spells of same element are not repeated | 7% damage buff for 10s, refreshes with each same element spell cast;
Note: Now, for several of those it could be done better and my suggestions here are probably not the best, but values changes alone would make a small diffrence. Alacrity was in weird spot and while proposed change from 2s to 5s sounded... well, better, I think continous buff is better than one-time thing. Elemental Reinforcement makes my head ache as I don't really know what could be done with this feat. It might drop from potential 30% buff to 21% with all elements buffs, but keeping said 30% all the time was a hassle.
And here are my suggestions for Thaumaturge (as mentioned before, didn't play much lately so all of them are... smaller in scale I think):
Name | Live values | Proposed changes - Glowing Flames | Smolder radiates, 20% of damage to nearby enemies, radius 15' | Smolder radiates, 30% of damage to nearby enemies, radius 20'; - Icy Veins | Encounters apply 1 stack of chill, radius 15' | Encounters apply 2 stacks of chill, radius 20';
- Chilling Advantage | Chill spells apply Rimefire instead | Chill spells apply Rimefire instead and targets affected by Rimefire deal 5% less damage; - Shatter Strike | 20% to shatter, 5s stun, magnitude 250, control immune targets take extra 150 magnitude | 20% to shatter, 5s stun, magnitude 300, control immune targets take extra 200 magnitude;
- Critical Burn | Crit Severity increase by 10%, smolder deals 25% more crit damage | Crit Severity increase by 10%, smolder deals 30% more crit damage; - Frigid Winds | Deal 1.25% more damage per chill stack | Deal 1.75% more damage per chill stack;
- Directed Flames | Smolder deals 80% of damage instantly but is no longer DoT, cooldown 12s | Smolder deals 30% of damage instantly but is no longer DoT, cooldown 1s; - Rimefire Weaving | Chill or Smolder reduce damage resistance by 5%, Rimefire by 10%, don't stack | Chill or Smolder reduce damage resistance by 5%, Rimefire by 10% from all sources, don't stack;
Note: As mentioned, Thaum isn't my strong side so I tried to keep changes to minimum. I believe thaums should have a buff/debuff possibility and with this in mind I tried to think about possible options. Those feats that were not mentioned were already changed to my liking previously. Idea for Rimefire Weaving was to make it a debuff for party/trial group where everybody would benefit from it. Same for Chilling Advantage. Of course, those debuffs shouldn't stack with other wizards, as it would lead to many "fun" situations.
Think the proposals of @erevel09 are what I'd like to see as baseline of Wizard buffs as well. The class still needs a buff across the board, with Thauma more in need than Arcanist. Without a fixed Directed Flames however it's hard to really see where Thauma is currently at.
Ok, so as mentioned here is a rough list of suggestions to class features, both arcanist and thaumaturge:
- Orb of Imposition | Increase duration of control effects by 20% | Increase Control Bonus (stat) by 25% and deal additional damage equal to 10% of Control Bonus rating to control immune targets (total of 9% buff if Control Bonus is capped at 90%);
Note: Those are mostly value changes. Orb of Imposition was in weird spot, where no one would use it. Proposed change would open a bit more diversity for builds I think and doesn't go too far as well. After all, who builds a wizard based on Control Bonus nowadays?
You can't be serious? There isn't enough Control Bonus gear in the game to get 90% unless you're using the Valindra Set (kekw) + old school weapons, at that point not everyone would have access to said pieces of gear and even that why would you spec into Control Bonus when there hasn't been anything to control since post M6.. enemies die too quickly.. wizards can't even get 6 stacks of chill on aoe mobs before they die from other classes..
The new suggestion to Orb of Imposition giving control powers 5% more damage against control immune targets is as good as it's going to get.
As you said yourself After all, who builds a wizard based on Control Bonus nowadays? Answer: No one.
Nova - Thaumaturge Wizard Bardtholomew - Minstrel Bard Mariah Carries - Devout Cleric Darth Bane - Thaumaturge Wizard on Xbox
The class still needs a buff across the board, with Thauma more in need than Arcanist. .
Are you sure ?
Don't feed a troll, but for the sake of feedback: The reporting in this thread and elsewhere has been pretty consistent and conclusive in that the capstone DPS build of the Wizard is down 10-15% compared to live, depending on the situation and who you ask. That's bad because the Wizard needed a buff even before that. The rework makes the class more balanced between Paragons but weaker overall. Which isn't ideal, to say the least. So yeah, I'm sure.
You can't be serious? There isn't enough Control Bonus gear in the game to get 90% unless you're using the Valindra Set (kekw) + old school weapons, at that point not everyone would have access to said pieces of gear and even that why would you spec into Control Bonus when there hasn't been anything to control since post M6.. enemies die too quickly.. wizards can't even get 6 stacks of chill on aoe mobs before they die from other classes..
The new suggestion to Orb of Imposition giving control powers 5% more damage against control immune targets is as good as it's going to get.
As you said yourself After all, who builds a wizard based on Control Bonus nowadays? Answer: No one.
This might be out of the scope of this balancing pass, but a Wizard with a control focus and spec isn't such a bad idea. Maybe some folks like to run it during solo content to have an easier time, maybe it'll serve a purpose in group content again at some point. Either way, as currently constructed Thauma and Arcanist compete for the same roles so you might as well do something completely different with one path.
Imho if you really want to give Wizards choices, you should cover four specs: Single Target, AoE, Group Utility / Buffing and CC. Because much depends on class features and feats I think it would be possible.
Ok, so as mentioned here is a rough list of suggestions to class features, both arcanist and thaumaturge:
- Orb of Imposition | Increase duration of control effects by 20% | Increase Control Bonus (stat) by 25% and deal additional damage equal to 10% of Control Bonus rating to control immune targets (total of 9% buff if Control Bonus is capped at 90%);
Note: Those are mostly value changes. Orb of Imposition was in weird spot, where no one would use it. Proposed change would open a bit more diversity for builds I think and doesn't go too far as well. After all, who builds a wizard based on Control Bonus nowadays?
You can't be serious? There isn't enough Control Bonus gear in the game to get 90% unless you're using the Valindra Set (kekw) + old school weapons, at that point not everyone would have access to said pieces of gear and even that why would you spec into Control Bonus when there hasn't been anything to control since post M6.. enemies die too quickly.. wizards can't even get 6 stacks of chill on aoe mobs before they die from other classes..
The new suggestion to Orb of Imposition giving control powers 5% more damage against control immune targets is as good as it's going to get.
As you said yourself After all, who builds a wizard based on Control Bonus nowadays? Answer: No one.
Idea was to make that class feature dynamic, make it an extra option to build character around. And I know there is not enough equipment in the game and companions or bonuses to cap Control Bonus without sacrificing something else. Here is a thing though: my wizard (77k IL) has 48.5% Control Bonus without any buffs (17.5% from INT alone). That's already pretty much 5%. With my suggestion that number jumps to 73.5%, which translates to 7.35% damage buff.
Of course it's only a suggestion and I am happy that other idea was already presented.
Think the proposals of @erevel09 are what I'd like to see as baseline of Wizard buffs as well. The class still needs a buff across the board, with Thauma more in need than Arcanist. Without a fixed Directed Flames however it's hard to really see where Thauma is currently at.
Track 1: Buff Arcanist powers (10-15%), then re-evaulate Track 2: Fix major Thaum bugs, then re-evaluate
The class still needs a buff across the board, with Thauma more in need than Arcanist. .
Are you sure ?
Don't feed a troll.
Are you sure thaum needs more buffing than arcanist, even AFTER arcanist is buffed 10 percent? It was a valid question, because I do not know how did you reach this conclusion. .
The class still needs a buff across the board, with Thauma more in need than Arcanist. .
Are you sure ?
Don't feed a troll.
Are you sure thaum needs more buffing than arcanist, even AFTER arcanist is buffed 10 percent? It was a valid question, because I do not know how did you reach this conclusion. .
My apologies then. I try to post some logs later today to back up my claims.
Think the proposals of @erevel09 are what I'd like to see as baseline of Wizard buffs as well. The class still needs a buff across the board, with Thauma more in need than Arcanist. Without a fixed Directed Flames however it's hard to really see where Thauma is currently at.
Track 1: Buff Arcanist powers (10-15%), then re-evaulate Track 2: Fix major Thaum bugs, then re-evaluate
You can't be serious? There isn't enough Control Bonus gear in the game to get 90% unless you're using the Valindra Set (kekw) + old school weapons, at that point not everyone would have access to said pieces of gear and even that why would you spec into Control Bonus when there hasn't been anything to control since post M6.. enemies die too quickly.. wizards can't even get 6 stacks of chill on aoe mobs before they die from other classes..
The new suggestion to Orb of Imposition giving control powers 5% more damage against control immune targets is as good as it's going to get.
As you said yourself After all, who builds a wizard based on Control Bonus nowadays? Answer: No one.
This might be out of the scope of this balancing pass, but a Wizard with a control focus and spec isn't such a bad idea. Maybe some folks like to run it during solo content to have an easier time, maybe it'll serve a purpose in group content again at some point. Either way, as currently constructed Thauma and Arcanist compete for the same roles so you might as well do something completely different with one path.
Imho if you really want to give Wizards choices, you should cover four specs: Single Target, AoE, Group Utility / Buffing and CC. Because much depends on class features and feats I think it would be possible.
Trust me I would love to have a wizard with a control focus spec, I was a huge advocate for it in discussions with the devs. Unfortunately it typically ended with it 'not being in the scope of resources'. Before M16 there was a Control/Damage/Buff Paragon Skill Tree's that made what you said a reality. Unfortunately according to Cryptic "Often times an entire feat tree wasn’t worth taking." So I don't think it would be wise to dedicate a spec(paragon path) to control as it would end up not being used in a majority of scenarios. sad to say.
Nova - Thaumaturge Wizard Bardtholomew - Minstrel Bard Mariah Carries - Devout Cleric Darth Bane - Thaumaturge Wizard on Xbox
Trust me I would love to have a wizard with a control focus spec, I was a huge advocate for it in discussions with the devs. Unfortunately it typically ended with it 'not being in the scope of resources'. Before M16 there was a Control/Damage/Buff Paragon Skill Tree's that made what you said a reality. Unfortunately according to Cryptic "Often times an entire feat tree wasn’t worth taking." So I don't think it would be wise to dedicate a spec(paragon path) to control as it would end up not being used in a majority of scenarios. sad to say.
Sadly I agree. Could see it being useful in newly released dungeons to slow down rampaging mobs, or where the party is a bit too weak/inexperienced to reliably complete a dungeon, or just for fun in open-world solo play. But I don't think the pace and style of gameplay presents enough opportunities for it to shine - unless it was to morph into a "tank" that used control to prevent damage.
1.In mtos there is no campfire after bosses so we go semi ST half the dungeon. And the mobs until 1 boss need no cc even at 70k IL party. 2.Also, there are other classes with cc, some more efficient than ours. 3.There are support players that have cc and can summon a cc comp.
If we could agree that after mod 16 it is imposed trinity roles and our role is dps, and not buffer or controller, we might have a chance to pass those soft and hard dps checks that is our responsibility to pass. .
My main point for a buffing / CC spec is that it might come in handy in the future or for solo. Plus you can easily merge both Arcanist and Thaum and probably preserve both Arcane, Chill and Smolder playstyles as well as viable AoE and ST options.
I get that in the current state CC is not a viable spec.
Ok so I've been doing some testing and I must admit, I'm pretty happy with these changes. I've tested every possible rotation and this one's my favorite so far:
That being said, like many others I too believe the wizard would benefit from a more control-oriented path, it would be very useful at the moonstone mask, since it's become clear the plan is for us to stick to roleplay.
P.S. Still WTT my mom's house for a class reroll token.
There is a second round of changes (details posted at the top of the thread).
The dps data I had requested came in recently (I wanted to be sure I was looking post Band of Air changes!), and that gave me a chance to compare Wizards with other dps classes across the board. I had expected Wizards would be lower, which they were. They were not as much lower as I might have guessed -- around 10% overall, although there was a LOT of variation (based on type of content, difficulty, even PC vs. Xbox vs. PS!).
For those who are curious, I was looking mostly at Hellbringer and Assassin for comparison, although in the end I tended to look at Hellbringer more, just because it's sometimes hard to compare melee with ranged in a meaningful way.
In the end, we decided to increase Wizard dps by around 15% on top of the previous changes. That's 10% for what we're seeing in the data, plus another 5% for Arcane Empowerment (those changes were meant to address problems with AE specifically, not to be an overall nerf to Wizards, so I wanted to compensate for them). At first 5% may not seem like much, but keep in mind that's 5% to *everything*, which is quite a bit for one spell.
My hope is that the first round of changes brought Thaumaturge up to where Arcanist is, and that this second round of changes lifts both paragon paths to where they should be.
There is a second round of changes (details posted at the top of the thread).
The dps data I had requested came in recently (I wanted to be sure I was looking post Band of Air changes!), and that gave me a chance to compare Wizards with other dps classes across the board. I had expected Wizards would be lower, which they were. They were not as much lower as I might have guessed -- around 10% overall, although there was a LOT of variation (based on type of content, difficulty, even PC vs. Xbox vs. PS!).
For those who are curious, I was looking mostly at Hellbringer and Assassin for comparison, although in the end I tended to look at Hellbringer more, just because it's sometimes hard to compare melee with ranged in a meaningful way.
In the end, we decided to increase Wizard dps by around 15% on top of the previous changes. That's 10% for what we're seeing in the data, plus another 5% for Arcane Empowerment (those changes were meant to address problems with AE specifically, not to be an overall nerf to Wizards, so I wanted to compensate for them). At first 5% may not seem like much, but keep in mind that's 5% to *everything*, which is quite a bit for one spell.
My hope is that the first round of changes brought Thaumaturge up to where Arcanist is, and that this second round of changes lifts both paragon paths to where they should be.
I checked the changes in the post and while I'm happy with increased magnitudes overall I have to ask: are the any more noticeable changes made for specific powers? Like AoE dailies target caps? Or changing Fireballs or Arcane Tempest Spell Mastery properties?
Thanks. That's definitely a step in the right direction and was sorely needed. Stil having issues getting the performance of Thauma because of the Directed Flames bug that have been mentioned in this thread. Without it I'm seeing a 10-15% decrease in single target dummy damage compared to the AE Arcanist build.
AoE damage is mostly fine for both paths imho. Thauma is still a bit behind above the 70k plateau, but my tests indicate that lower item levels could benefit more from Thauma. I tested a naked 40k char and was able to almost double my DPS (from 33k to 59k dps/s) using a Chill/Smolder build compared to Arcanist. I haven't look into the number to figure out why this Thauma advantage flips on higher item levels, but I assume it's because it's still easier for Arcanist to maintain Ribcage et al stacks for example and hence that path has a better synergy with endgame builds.
One random example: I'm getting way more Smolder ticks using Conduit of Ice, but that power's magnitude is not able to proc Ribcage. So if I slot another more potent power I'm losing Smolder damage, so it's a bad tradeoff.
There is a second round of changes (details posted at the top of the thread).
The dps data I had requested came in recently (I wanted to be sure I was looking post Band of Air changes!), and that gave me a chance to compare Wizards with other dps classes across the board. I had expected Wizards would be lower, which they were. They were not as much lower as I might have guessed -- around 10% overall, although there was a LOT of variation (based on type of content, difficulty, even PC vs. Xbox vs. PS!).
For those who are curious, I was looking mostly at Hellbringer and Assassin for comparison, although in the end I tended to look at Hellbringer more, just because it's sometimes hard to compare melee with ranged in a meaningful way.
In the end, we decided to increase Wizard dps by around 15% on top of the previous changes. That's 10% for what we're seeing in the data, plus another 5% for Arcane Empowerment (those changes were meant to address problems with AE specifically, not to be an overall nerf to Wizards, so I wanted to compensate for them). At first 5% may not seem like much, but keep in mind that's 5% to *everything*, which is quite a bit for one spell.
My hope is that the first round of changes brought Thaumaturge up to where Arcanist is, and that this second round of changes lifts both paragon paths to where they should be.
I'll try to be as clear as possible, Ice Terrain didn't need to gain magnitude, but the cd reduction that I had already described in this post. In groups where the DPS has very high damage, you don't perform the aoe rotation as desired, as it lacks Ice Terrain due to its long cd.
Please, we need time, the changes are not on preview yet. When they come, we must do more than hit the PE dummy with the build we had on live. We must build 2-3 builds of each paragon, test it on INSTANCES. Thaum was not behind arcanist ST after last changes, in fact it was enough above to force us all to respec. Please wait for changes to be uploaded tomorrow on preview and test during weekend.
There is a second round of changes (details posted at the top of the thread).
The dps data I had requested came in recently (I wanted to be sure I was looking post Band of Air changes!), and that gave me a chance to compare Wizards with other dps classes across the board. I had expected Wizards would be lower, which they were. They were not as much lower as I might have guessed -- around 10% overall, although there was a LOT of variation (based on type of content, difficulty, even PC vs. Xbox vs. PS!).
Curious, does this mean the team looks at data from random samples across all instances? If we go comparing random player's performances on the live server to the more experienced, focused players on preview, anything will look like a buff
Update: I just checked in the fix to make Arcane Empowerment %-based rather than a flat 1s per tick. That change may or not make the build with the other changes. (I added a "they" to the tooltip just so there was a visible difference for anyone testing, since otherwise it's a fairly subtle change.)
with these 15% increase on top of the buffs before , is getting me very excited for the wizard class now. looking much better! please dont forget to fix lightning bolts problem of not hitting nothing due to the landscape. once that is fixed lightning bolt gonna be a very good AOE skilll. cant wait to see wizard will do now in dps.
Not wizard-specific, but has the idea of having increased cd-reduction out of combat ever been brought up as a combat-QoL improvement? I think it would make it easier to use the proper encounter combos throughout dungeons, making combat more dynamic and enjoyable.
Comments
In my st rotation I start with Arcane Conduit and then with Ray of Enfeeblement + 2 encounters. How much buff Magic Missile does this get? Also remember the synergy of this at-will with the weapon enchant.
Moreover, if smolder has a cd, Glowing rays doesn't, meaning it will damage nearby foes anytime fire (or chill with rimefire) is added on a target. This occures on both live and preview versions.
My Wizard Guide:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JezPmehRjvkrHQKwEJ9tGGesDuekj2mcfKiWxlx56ns/edit?usp=sharing
My Arbiter Cleric guide:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UZGOcQIMLCh5I4lrH63REK5YVsa3Kpk1hOyfic21z8k/edit?usp=sharing
Repel spam test NO Swath:
Repel spam test WITH Swath:
If I'm reading it correctly, that is roughly 3% more damage after smolder is applied. I tried this without Critical Conflagration, manually adding smolder with Scorching at-will, and also automatically with class feature applying smolder on crit. Likewise, I tested with and without Directed Flames, and always got the same results.
Strange!
This wasn't intended behavior before, is it now?
Smolder Test:
Rimefire Smolder Test:
Overview:
Smolder has 1 more hit than Rimefire Smolder.
Class Setup:
(notice not using Chilling Advantage. Not using Critical Conflag. Using 2 boujee feats)
@rgutscheradev
Feedback: This should be intended behavior. Let me explain why.
The Added Effect for all Fire Powers states "Adds Smolder." Correct? Good.
But it doesn't actually add Smolder if you're already under the effect of Chill or Rimefire Smolder(duh!).
What should happen is exactly what the tooltip states.
It should add the effect of Smolder, dealing damage over time independently from Rimefire Smolder. So if you're under the effect of Chill, and use a Fire Power, you'll proc Rimefire and Add Smolder because that's what Fire Powers do, right? Still allowing it's duration to be refreshed by Chill Effects. And if you want to squeeze every ounce of DPS out the class you'll want to be sure to maintain Smolder once every 5s.
Giving the player the ability and most importantly the OPTION to maximize their DPS potential at the high risk of maintaining Smolder. *cough* old-school *cough* Master Of Flames *cough*.
In the end interactions will need additional checks. Rimefire Weaving's tooltip would need adjustments allowing it to stack to 15% + giving the Arcanist back their x5 Arcane Empowerment or if under the effect of both Smolder/Rimefire Smolder
- Critical Mass; Causes certain powers (Furious Immolation, Fireball) to consume Smolder + Rimefire Smolder (that are ticking independently) dealing additional X00 mag damage to the target and X00 to all targets within 20'?
Bardtholomew - Minstrel Bard
Mariah Carries - Devout Cleric
Darth Bane - Thaumaturge Wizard on Xbox
Discord ◆ Youtube ◆ Twitter ◆ Twitch
Let's start with something simple, like problems:
- animation is often stuck for several powers (mostly at-wills);
- cast time of powers takes too long to actually see benefits of them (mostly AoE dailies, but also pre-change Shield encounter);
- AoE powers (again, mostly dailies) have weird caps for the number of targets they can affect;
- and lastly, magnitudes and cooldowns.
So here is a rough list of changes for at-wills, encounters and dailies:
At-wills:
Name | Live magnitude | Proposed changes
- Magic Missile | 40 | 55;
- Ray of Frost | 55 | 65;
- Storm Pillar | 30-80 | 50-90 and reduced cast time by 33%;
- Arcane Bolt | 60 | 100 and reduced cast time by 33% for each animation;
- Scorching Burst | 30-80 | 60-100 and reduced cast time by 33%;
- Chilling Cloud | 65 | 75 and making all hits into AoE similar to final hit.
Note: Many of those powers can be stuck in animation after they are used (ray of frost, storm pillar, scorching burst) or player can be unable to move until animation finishes completely (magic missile), so if something could be done about it, it would be great.
Dailies:
Name | Live values | Proposed changes
- Arcane Singularity | radius 42', cast time 1.8s, magnitude 800 | radius 50', cast time 1.2s, magnitude 1000
- Oppresive Force | magnitude 325/375 | magnitude 450/350
- Maelstorm of Chaos | radius 8', cast time 2.13s, magnitude 600 | radius 25', cast time 1.13s, magnitude 1200
- Furious Immolation | radius 35', cast time 2s, magnitude 700 | radius 45', cast time 1.5s, magnitude 900
- Ice Storm | radius 40', cast time 1.9s, magnitude 600 | radius 45', cast time 1.4s, magnitude 1000
Note: As previously noted, many of those powers have really weird caps on the number of targets they can affect. At least it seems so after tests I've done.
For example, Arcane Singularity can affect up to 6 targets, Furious Immolation pulls 3-4 and affects up to 8 and Ice Storm can affect 5 targets. As far as I know, Oppresive Force can affect up to 15 enemies. Can they please all be brought up to at least 10 targets or if possible to be the same as Oppressive Force (15 target cap)?
Didn't mention Ice Knife because magnitude increase mentioned before sounds good to me and Arcane Empowerment is changing already.
Encounters:
Name | Live values | Proposed changes
- Entangling Force | magnitude 500 | magnitude 550;
- Repel | magnitude 500 | magnitude 550;
- Icy Terrain | magnitude 350 | magnitude 420;
- Lightning Bolt | radius 5', range 30', magnitude 200 | radius 10', range 40', magnitude 300;
- Desintegrate | magnitude 400-600, below 20% extra 50% damage | magnitude 480-660, below 25% extra 55% damage;
- Arcane Tempest | radius 10', magnitude 300, spell mastery magnitude 330 self-centered | radius 10', magnitude 330, spell mastery radius 15' magnitude 375 on target;
- Arcane Conduit | magnitude 200, buff 15% for 5s, spell mastery magnitude 225, buff 20% for 5s | magnitude 300, buff 15% for 7s, spell mastery magnitude 375, buff 25% for 7s;
- Icy Rays | magnitude 520-720 | magnitude 580-780;
- Chill Strike | magnitude 575, spell mastery magnitude 225 AoE | magnitude 630, spell mastery magnitude 320 AoE;
- Conduit of Ice | magnitude 230 | magnitude 330;
- Fireball | radius 15', magnitude 250 AoE, spell mastery 550 ST | radius 15', magnitude 350 AoE, spell mastery radius 20' magnitude 550 AoE;
Note: Some changes suggested before sounded good so I only included things I would add/change. Other that bug fixes of course. I also suggest reducing cooldowns by 1s for shorter ones and 2s for longer ones.
Ok, this was a long post. I can make another one regarding class features and feats (more of arcanist side unfortunatelly, didn't play much thaum lately).
Name | Live values | Proposed changes
- Arcane Presense | 0.5% per stack | 1.2% per stack;
- Evocation | 10% AoE damage buff | 12% AoE damage buff;
- Chilling Presence | 0.5% per stack | 1% per stack;
- Orb of Imposition | Increase duration of control effects by 20% | Increase Control Bonus (stat) by 25% and deal additional damage equal to 10% of Control Bonus rating to control immune targets (total of 9% buff if Control Bonus is capped at 90%);
Note: Those are mostly value changes. Orb of Imposition was in weird spot, where no one would use it. Proposed change would open a bit more diversity for builds I think and doesn't go too far as well. After all, who builds a wizard based on Control Bonus nowadays?
- Eye of the Storm | Effect duration 5s, 10% Crit Chance bonus, Cooldown 20s | Effect duration 8s, 8% Crit Chance and Severity bonus, Cooldown 10s;
- Storm Spell | Magnitude 100, 20% chance | Magnitude 120, 25% chance;
- Storm Fury | Magnitude 50, Cooldown 3s | Magnitude 150 radius 10', cooldown 3s;
- Arcane Power Field | Duration 8s, magnitude 50/2s | Duration 10s, magnitude 35/1s;
Note: There could be so much more changes done for not utilised powers (such as Eye of the Storm), but given the time and resource limit, I think it's better than it was. Storm Spell was indirectly nerfed by the fix, so I think a bit of buff to compensate is in order. Arcane Power Field is supposed to be used mainly for Arcane Empowerment, as it can utilise the Arcane Mastery stacks the most, so a bit longer duration wasn't such a bad idea I think. Making Storm Fury an AoE is also something that would help while just running around and doing quests I think.
- Critical Conflagration | 10% Crit Severity, smolder on crits | 6% Crit Chance and Crit Severity, smolder on crits can grant Combat Advantage for 4s;
- Swath of Destruction | Smolder deals 5% extra damage, affected targets take 2% more damage | Smolder deals 10% extra damage, affected targets take 3% more damage from all sources (party, trial group);
- Frost Wave | Daily applies 3 stacks of chill and freeze targets, radius 30' | Daily applies 6 stacks of chill and freeze, radius 30', targets affected by chill deal 1% less damage per stack;
Note: As I didn't play thaumaturge for a long time, I think proposed changes does not make things weirder for cold and fire users. Buff to smolder effects (debuff, possible CA from it) are needed here in my opinion, simply because it already was made before and wasn't a bad thing. Arcanists have access to Nightmare Wizardry feat to have CA source, thaumaturges didn't have that (iirc). Now they do. Frost Wave was in weird spot, where I don't think anybody would use it, and applying debuff for chilled targets surely isn't such a bad thing, right? Didn't include Combustive Action, as I think changing 1% AP to 5% AP on kill is a nice thing.
Will make one more post about feats, but they are a bit wider topic, so I can already see not everybody to be happy with the way they are and want something diffrent for them.
Name | Live values | Proposed changes
- Alacrity | Daily reduce cooldowns by 2s | Each stack of Arcane Mastery reduce cooldown of Encounter powers by 0.2s, works with feat "A Step Above Mastery";
- Spell Twisting | 4 stacks, 1% AP for stack consumed | 4 stacks, 1.5% AP for stack consumed;
- Assailing Force | 10% chance | 15% chance;
- Snap Freeze | Magnitude 40 for each stack of chill | Magnitude 60 for each stack of chill, (works separately for every wizard);
- Chaos Magic | 5% chance for 5s | 7% chance for 8s;
- Iced Lightning | 10% more damage vs chilled | 12% more damage vs chilled, each stack of Chill increase value by 0.5%;
- Nightmare Wizardry | 10% chance, 10s | 15% chance, 10s;
- Striking Advantage | Magnitude 100, 25% chance | Magnitude 125, chance 25%;
- A Step Above Mastery | 10 stacks, extra 0.5% damage per stack, 10s | no change;
- Elemental Reinforcement | 5% damage buff for 10s, double if spells of same element are not repeated | 7% damage buff for 10s, refreshes with each same element spell cast;
Note: Now, for several of those it could be done better and my suggestions here are probably not the best, but values changes alone would make a small diffrence. Alacrity was in weird spot and while proposed change from 2s to 5s sounded... well, better, I think continous buff is better than one-time thing. Elemental Reinforcement makes my head ache as I don't really know what could be done with this feat. It might drop from potential 30% buff to 21% with all elements buffs, but keeping said 30% all the time was a hassle.
And here are my suggestions for Thaumaturge (as mentioned before, didn't play much lately so all of them are... smaller in scale I think):
Name | Live values | Proposed changes
- Glowing Flames | Smolder radiates, 20% of damage to nearby enemies, radius 15' | Smolder radiates, 30% of damage to nearby enemies, radius 20';
- Icy Veins | Encounters apply 1 stack of chill, radius 15' | Encounters apply 2 stacks of chill, radius 20';
- Chilling Advantage | Chill spells apply Rimefire instead | Chill spells apply Rimefire instead and targets affected by Rimefire deal 5% less damage;
- Shatter Strike | 20% to shatter, 5s stun, magnitude 250, control immune targets take extra 150 magnitude | 20% to shatter, 5s stun, magnitude 300, control immune targets take extra 200 magnitude;
- Critical Burn | Crit Severity increase by 10%, smolder deals 25% more crit damage | Crit Severity increase by 10%, smolder deals 30% more crit damage;
- Frigid Winds | Deal 1.25% more damage per chill stack | Deal 1.75% more damage per chill stack;
- Directed Flames | Smolder deals 80% of damage instantly but is no longer DoT, cooldown 12s | Smolder deals 30% of damage instantly but is no longer DoT, cooldown 1s;
- Rimefire Weaving | Chill or Smolder reduce damage resistance by 5%, Rimefire by 10%, don't stack | Chill or Smolder reduce damage resistance by 5%, Rimefire by 10% from all sources, don't stack;
Note: As mentioned, Thaum isn't my strong side so I tried to keep changes to minimum. I believe thaums should have a buff/debuff possibility and with this in mind I tried to think about possible options. Those feats that were not mentioned were already changed to my liking previously. Idea for Rimefire Weaving was to make it a debuff for party/trial group where everybody would benefit from it. Same for Chilling Advantage. Of course, those debuffs shouldn't stack with other wizards, as it would lead to many "fun" situations.
The new suggestion to Orb of Imposition giving control powers 5% more damage against control immune targets is as good as it's going to get.
As you said yourself After all, who builds a wizard based on Control Bonus nowadays?
Answer: No one.
Bardtholomew - Minstrel Bard
Mariah Carries - Devout Cleric
Darth Bane - Thaumaturge Wizard on Xbox
Discord ◆ Youtube ◆ Twitter ◆ Twitch
Imho if you really want to give Wizards choices, you should cover four specs: Single Target, AoE, Group Utility / Buffing and CC. Because much depends on class features and feats I think it would be possible.
Of course it's only a suggestion and I am happy that other idea was already presented.
Track 2: Fix major Thaum bugs, then re-evaluate
IMO
It was a valid question, because I do not know how did you reach this conclusion.
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Bardtholomew - Minstrel Bard
Mariah Carries - Devout Cleric
Darth Bane - Thaumaturge Wizard on Xbox
Discord ◆ Youtube ◆ Twitter ◆ Twitch
And the mobs until 1 boss need no cc even at 70k IL party.
2.Also, there are other classes with cc, some more efficient than ours.
3.There are support players that have cc and can summon a cc comp.
If we could agree that after mod 16 it is imposed trinity roles and our role is dps, and not buffer or controller, we might have a chance to pass those soft and hard dps checks that is our responsibility to pass.
.
I get that in the current state CC is not a viable spec.
That being said, like many others I too believe the wizard would benefit from a more control-oriented path, it would be very useful at the moonstone mask, since it's become clear the plan is for us to stick to roleplay.
P.S. Still WTT my mom's house for a class reroll token.
The dps data I had requested came in recently (I wanted to be sure I was looking post Band of Air changes!), and that gave me a chance to compare Wizards with other dps classes across the board. I had expected Wizards would be lower, which they were. They were not as much lower as I might have guessed -- around 10% overall, although there was a LOT of variation (based on type of content, difficulty, even PC vs. Xbox vs. PS!).
For those who are curious, I was looking mostly at Hellbringer and Assassin for comparison, although in the end I tended to look at Hellbringer more, just because it's sometimes hard to compare melee with ranged in a meaningful way.
In the end, we decided to increase Wizard dps by around 15% on top of the previous changes. That's 10% for what we're seeing in the data, plus another 5% for Arcane Empowerment (those changes were meant to address problems with AE specifically, not to be an overall nerf to Wizards, so I wanted to compensate for them). At first 5% may not seem like much, but keep in mind that's 5% to *everything*, which is quite a bit for one spell.
My hope is that the first round of changes brought Thaumaturge up to where Arcanist is, and that this second round of changes lifts both paragon paths to where they should be.
AoE damage is mostly fine for both paths imho. Thauma is still a bit behind above the 70k plateau, but my tests indicate that lower item levels could benefit more from Thauma. I tested a naked 40k char and was able to almost double my DPS (from 33k to 59k dps/s) using a Chill/Smolder build compared to Arcanist. I haven't look into the number to figure out why this Thauma advantage flips on higher item levels, but I assume it's because it's still easier for Arcanist to maintain Ribcage et al stacks for example and hence that path has a better synergy with endgame builds.
One random example: I'm getting way more Smolder ticks using Conduit of Ice, but that power's magnitude is not able to proc Ribcage. So if I slot another more potent power I'm losing Smolder damage, so it's a bad tradeoff.
When they come, we must do more than hit the PE dummy with the build we had on live.
We must build 2-3 builds of each paragon, test it on INSTANCES.
Thaum was not behind arcanist ST after last changes, in fact it was enough above to force us all to respec.
Please wait for changes to be uploaded tomorrow on preview and test during weekend.