@tchefi There is literally nothing that prevent friends from playing together. Some reward is in every content, the bonus reward was to motivate people to help complete strangers. If you do not wish to help complete strangers, the bonus reward was not intended for you.
Well, close, but not exactly. You cut out of the equation the new guys.
Prior the random queues, a new guy might not manage to put up a group to do a quest dungeon for days... RQ allowed them to just queue up and let the system fill up the rest of the party. (that did not work with direct select, because... e.g. Pirate retreat was chosen so rarely that a full party never met at the same time) Devs actually want everyone to be focused on the new content, the new content is the drive to invest and improve. However, they simply cannot have a new player experience be "the game is a completely desolate place".
I seriously doubt that any player successfully passing in the latest dungeons and trials have any need for a special rAD reward. At least, they should not be fed by easy rAD anyway - but if a million rAD thrown away prevents one soul from leaving the game after two days of shouting in various places lfg Ice Throne, well, it served the purpose. But that purpose is gone if you queue up for a RQ as a full group...
Did I forgot new players? Nop. I did not. I count playerbase as whole, early, mid and end game players.
Your assumption that new players would not make group for dungeons. That is a biggest nonsese ever. Now the reason why you may think so is rather obvious. Players in Neverwinter get so used for automated party matching system ( queue) that forgot how to play rpg mmo games. You know this part which called> Social interaction and communications<.
We have Zone, LFG ( looking for group) chats, and once you get in Protector Enclave, then without doubts you will notice that someone making party to do daily random q.
Other rpg mmo gameplay element is friendlist. You do x content, and met player, eiher in dungeon via random q system or whatever. All went OK, you offer to add to friendlist. Next time you need someone to fill party, you offer players from friendlist to get in party. Also lets not forget guilds/alliances.. Maybe some of your friends are part of x guild, so you may join same guild too.
Now the other very important part. Lot of new players do not instant ragequit. That's fact. Lot of players may repeat same boss fight even 10 times, and still have interest to do another 20 try. But older players have too highly inflated their own importance, and ragequit at very start of dungeon if they notice that they may not get carried through. So most players who abandon q's or AFK are not not new players, but someones new alt.
About month ago I where in LoMM, and other tham me, other four party members where under 40k IL. And only cleric ~37k IL have done skirmish Master of hunt. Others haven't done any dungeon before. So I had to explain not just dungeon mechanics but whole game combat system, stats and etc while also we where clearing dungeon. And none of them QUIT, all went to the end. Even if heal and tank died multiple times, they didn't ragequit.
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
@tchefi There is literally nothing that prevent friends from playing together. Some reward is in every content, the bonus reward was to motivate people to help complete strangers. If you do not wish to help complete strangers, the bonus reward was not intended for you.
As evidenced in other threads about the fail rates of dungeons and trials by picking up pugs, can you not understand why people would rather run with their friends?
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,408Arc User
@tchefi There is literally nothing that prevent friends from playing together. Some reward is in every content, the bonus reward was to motivate people to help complete strangers. If you do not wish to help complete strangers, the bonus reward was not intended for you.
"Some reward" is not the same reward. You were talking about an unfair advantage for premade/friends, why would we have an unfair disadvantage on rAD while playing with friends, guildies, allymates ?
- Ensure all queues are firing in a reasonable time frame, regardless of popularity. - Reduce burnout from running the same queue ad nauseum by introducing variety. - Make it clear when you are eligible for and when you receive daily bonus AD and seals. - Provide further bonuses for those players who can master the most difficult content. - Incentivize playing roles that are currently underplayed to reduce queue wait times. - Incentivize helping players who are new to a queue to foster a positive environment.
Asterdhal precised, for the first and fifth point, which you can interpret as "helping strangers" :
Whether you’re queuing with a full premade group, or queuing as an individual, your experience will be significantly more varied,[...] You’ll have the opportunity to play through some less common content and still receive bonus rewards thanks to random queues.
The new player bonus is independant of whether or not you premade with the said new player, whether or not it's a RQ, whether or not he is a stranger. I'm used to premade with a new guildie/new player (if he is level 20) to get him fast RQ in a friendly and communicative environement, fast rAD and explainations about the RQ system, this the very day we meet/he is invited in the guild, while also get mine (1 stone, 2 birds), though i don't really need more rAD in my stockpile since mod 14 change to 100k refinement/account.
Demanding to remove RTQ because of Normal CoK is absolutely absurd. That trial cant be even compared to CODG in term of "difficulty" or even Svardborg.
Normal CoK only need 3 mechanics to be handled. maybe even 2 if your group dps is high.
1. Red circle on feet, we only got 3 red on each wave. And even if the person that got it somehow fail to move away from group just tell the tank to move the dragon
2. Spliting Valindra and Dragon. Just ask the tanks to take each of them, if the tank is inexperienced
3. Hypo = nuff said the hypo is nerfed alot, you can resist it with 3 ppl
People maybe still die because of pushback but nothing serious. So if you run Normal CoK on pug, just remind them with these 3 thing.
And lastly if you just want to cap your daily AD refining, you dont even have to do RTQ now. Even without role bonus you still can cap Rough AD by doing 1x Skirmish, 1x Advance Dungeon and 1x Normal Dungeon
@hadestemplar I somehow have a feeling you did not read my comment, neither even your own. Nevermind, I already spammed here more than enough.
My comment is written mainly focusing on one part of your comment.}
Prior the random queues, a new guy might not manage to put up a group to do a quest dungeon for days.
The rest of comment kind of irrelevant. Reason is that, you mentione pre random q time and Pirate Retreat dungeon. So it's obviously you have in mind of pre mod 6 era. Why I skipped other part of your comment is is rather simple.
The pre mod 6 dungeons where different from what we have now. And whole situation where different..
I guess I need remind you the old days.
First of all what where main sources of rAD then? Answer where from daily quests> daily dungeon, daily epic dungeon, daily foundry. The other source where salvage epic gear, which you could get only from epic dungeons.
In pre mod 6 there where two type dungeons, normal and epic version of same dungeons. Which you unlocked once reach lv 60 ( max). Epic version dungeon with upscaled enemies/creatures, and with additional mechanics.
But warlocks where not only one class in game. Each class had own sets. Now why Pirate retreat where less time compelted is simple. In that epic dungeon you where farming weapon sets. And in past this is how GWF offhand you could get there. And mind that it was not best off hand, and it where not set's, they have no set effect, so you could mix, get main from one dungeon, and offhand from other dungeon. https://neverwinter.fandom.com/wiki/Knot_of_the_Avatar_of_War
So the situation in pre mod 6 and current q are wastly different. THe way how get AD also way different, and even dungeon purposes are different now. At that time there where no need of random q system, to recycle old content which players where skipping.
Neverwinter is theme park RPG mmo game, more less storry telling game. And also it use vertical progress system. That's mean each new content and new gear, makes old gear less relevant. For example, how much relevant are companion gear from undermountain? And would you farm them, if even non best gear from sharandar which easier to get are on par or better than best ones from undermountain?
Same can be said about dungeons and their rewards. How much relevant is Lostmouth set now from Lostmouth + Shores of turen. If there would be not Random q system, no one would even bother to play older dungeon/skirmishes. And majority of playerbase would focus on two/three latest contents.
Other thing, just look to new lv 20 characters, their lv up gear already are better than what you get in lets say mSP epic dungeon or older dungeons. As you can see very little interest are to replay old contents.
Now I want to also be clear, that I am not fan on current random q system. But as long there is no proper alternatives, there is no point to ask for it's removal.
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited July 2022
Everyone ran eToS, a bit more eToS and when they got tired of eToS they did eToS. Some did Pirate.
New players sat in queue for hours and quit the game thinking the player base is dead, which leads to decline of the playerbase (no new players) and new players wait even more, and so on.
Instead of somehow consolidating the newer players we got the epic solution, named random queues. which put veteran players and new players into the same leveling dungeon.
Dev's were warned that it will lead to toxicity, suffering, tears and even more players quitting. Dev's did not listen.
Later we all got to say "We told you so"... But then it was somewhat late, sad, and after extensive bad "press" for new players about the game.
Before random q system, most playerbase where focused on latest two dungeons. The stongest/well geared players where runing dungeons with own private q parties. While player without best, where kind of left away. I remember clearly how I was siting in q for like hours, just to get in Shores of turen, hours for eToS. There where time that whole day you could not get in any non latest dungeon.
Once I q for mSP which where second latest dungeon, at first moment players rush to inspect your IL, and if does not match their expectation you are bootkick out of dungeon.
And it was rather usual thing, and there where plenty of threads created in forum where players complained about toxcity. Have you forgot that?
In short toxicity haven't change at all, neither increase with random q system, neither decrease. The percentages are exactly same.
Now lets say devs due some unknown reasons remove random q system. What chances are that players would do run eCC, Clock tower, FBI, eGwD?
All theme park rpg mmo games have same issue, only latest two exapansion realated content are relevant, while older ones are ignored.
Even now with random q, players do them only due rAD, and farming sepecific dungeons with premades or via private q with guild/allaince or players from friendlist.
Also it's safe to say that due Reapers challenge q players even notice that there are some other dungeons in game. A lot of players don't even know older dungeons mechanics, cuz they never done them at all.
For example I knew player who have done Zariel(master), ToMM, CoK, yet he haven't one eCC, and eGwD. And when we got with RC there, he was not aware of dungeon mechanics. When asked about other dungeons, he also haven't done MC, VT, even lostmouth and FBI.
So, asking to remove random q, it's same as ask developers remove 70% of game dungeons. Cuz without rAD as daily reward, no one would run them.
Now can Random q get reworked or repalced? Oh yeah, that can be done.
Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
1
feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
Demanding to remove RTQ because of Normal CoK is absolutely absurd. That trial cant be even compared to CODG in term of "difficulty" or even Svardborg.
Well gee, its a good thing that that's only one of many reasons that I and many others here thing the RTQ is no longer a good idea. You might benefit from actually reading the thread before commenting.
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
- Ensure all queues are firing in a reasonable time frame, regardless of popularity. - Reduce burnout from running the same queue ad nauseum by introducing variety. - Make it clear when you are eligible for and when you receive daily bonus AD and seals. - Provide further bonuses for those players who can master the most difficult content. - Incentivize playing roles that are currently underplayed to reduce queue wait times. - Incentivize helping players who are new to a queue to foster a positive environment.
Thanks for actually looking for and quoting this, which I think reinforces the point I'm trying to make. Looking at those goals compared to the current situation, it's easy to see that the devs' approach achieved none of them. 1) There is now even less variety in the RTQ thanks to pointless, more difficult versions of Tiamat and Demogorgon having been removed from that queue and almost all never material (TOMM, VOS) being too difficult for the vast majority of players. 2) OK, seals and daily bonus. They at least did that. Was that a problem before? 3) Yeah, whatever. Exclusionary BS like hardcore mode and reaper's challenge is there for people who want it. It is also loaded with low drop rates for the ingredients for a band of air, obtainable only in HCVOS, yet required of most DPS players in ancient dragon hunts now. It's the same old story of broken items and flavor of the month builds being required to play content. This has been a problem for a very long time. Some players have lives and jobs and can't be bothered to run HCVOS for three months to get a ring that they know will be nerfed sooner or later. 4) There's a difference between incentivizing support roles and requiring masterful healers and tanks for nearly all content. All they've accomplished is to bore a lot of DPS players senseless because they don't want to put in the vast time required to build a character in a class they don't want to play up to endgame level. Queue wait times, are if anything, much longer than they were with, of course, low rates of success for PUG groups. 5) Foster a positive environment. Sure. Excuse me while I stifle my cackles with a pillow for the next five minutes.
Whether you’re queuing with a full premade group, or queuing as an individual, your experience will be significantly more varied,[...] You’ll have the opportunity to play through some less common content and still receive bonus rewards thanks to random queues.
That's some painfully stilted PRspeak right there. But anyhow, we know how it turned out. Less variety, less opportunity, no one really bothers with RTQ and RADQ except with premade groups. So of all these goals, the only one they successfully accomplished was the one that no one thought was a problem because it was already done: making AD and seal rewards clear. I rest my case.
That's some painfully stilted PRspeak right there. But anyhow, we know how it turned out. Less variety, less opportunity, no one really bothers with RTQ and RADQ except with premade groups. So of all these goals, the only one they successfully accomplished was the one that no one thought was a problem because it was already done: making AD and seal rewards clear. I rest my case.
I didn't disagree with that :P. I disagreed with the idea (not yours) random queues (in general, not specifically RTQ) were designed to help strangers/solo players, and the idea queue rewards should be better the less premade the party is.
My oldschool opinion hasn't changed about queues : any matchmaking for PvE in a MMORPG is, generally, a bad solution. It encourages considering the guys we get in our party, thanks to an algorythm rather than social efforts, as Kleenex : disposable tissues we can blow our snot nose in before throwing in the bin and forever forget about. Do I have a better solution considering what are the goals devs have ? nope ^^. I'm just grumpy :P
Demanding to remove RTQ because of Normal CoK is absolutely absurd. That trial cant be even compared to CODG in term of "difficulty" or even Svardborg.
Well gee, its a good thing that that's only one of many reasons that I and many others here thing the RTQ is no longer a good idea. You might benefit from actually reading the thread before commenting.
Well I do read yours, and your whole argument based on it is "too hard" and it is not worth the effort.
Since the only trial that is new here is Normal CoK that you consider as extremely difficult to clear with pug, which is actually it is not and many people on this thread already mention it several time.
People already get used to current CODG and Svardborg so im not going there to discuss their "difficulty"
So what is the basis of your argument to remove them, if the argument it self is proven to be invalid.
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arazith07Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,719Arc User
*Braces for incoming QQs for Tiamat being too hard* (Consoles get it returned on Tuesday and PC will get it back Thursday)
. My oldschool opinion hasn't changed about queues : any matchmaking for PvE in a MMORPG is, generally, a bad solution. It encourages considering the guys we get in our party, thanks to an algorythm rather than social efforts, as Kleenex : disposable tissues we can blow our snot nose in before throwing in the bin and forever forget about. Do I have a better solution considering what are the goals devs have ? nope ^^. I'm just grumpy :P
Well yeah the random queue now is mainly to gain RAD and Seals, and occasionnally on dungeon delver event ppl spam it. So people usually just forget and never remembe the dude they party up with. But not always, I do make some friend on those randoms.
Actually there are another methods considering RAD, and it got some "social effort" elements on it but take much much more time.
HE Trains
But there are problem with this, since now DR on well of dragon is gone and they change it with the Herald thingy that so embarassing, usually HE train like this only valid for new content. Remember Avernus Ensnared farm, Sharandar MHE farm and recent DB Valley HE train.
The purpose of this system is rather simple, it's to reuse old content. In short words, you as player got paid to play old content. That's it.
All Theme Park RPG mmo games have same issue, the latest two expansions are center of the game, while older expansions become irrelevant and abandoned by players.
If lets say developers remove this random queue system, most game content would not be even used. Playerbase would focus just on last two dungeons, and maybe one or two trials.
This random q system, while it's not perfect, it's better than nothing.
This theory doesn't hold up. And it doesn't hold up because what is developed, is actually recycled content, and deliberate killing of old content.
There was a public discourse over how difficult it was to program around apparently two particular items of desire: Band of Air and Devil's Ribcage. And in response to the conversation (which, to my recollections, the developers themselves started), they in their wisdom...slapped down a module making a 2.0 to the Ribcage and many, many other "same but new" items. And I point this out because it's DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for the death of popularity in the Avenus/Vallenhas zones. And hold that "but the dragon hunts are better!" comment that's entirely irrelevant to the point being made.
Point being: recycled content, and artificial shifting of the playerbase from the old content. In short, developer's responsibility for emptying out those areas, not ours. If that power is in developer's hands, then there's actually nothing at all stopping developers from placing a new vendor in Avernus, or a Juma 2.0 in Vallenhas, even throwing together a quick story about a baron of hell or demon looking to take territory to justify its presence. But then, this isn't a new argument since iirc Galactic made a video on the subject a month and some change back. The fix doesn't need to be new-but-old shinies when they could've just slapped a power quest on those old items and incentivized the entire playerbase to keep up the grind. Hell, they could have slipped the Dragon Hunt's system in there as the 2.0 patch over gambling for gore chains and coal wards. I doubt anyone would complain if there was a system to get guaranteed lores from map monsters and the minibosses.
To OP's end, I can see their concern as harsh, but valid. And I think it's valid for another point mentioned: Dilute the AD grind to all dungeon/trial queues—public, private, and otherwise—and suddenly there is zero need to run non-coorporative dungeons to the high degree of failure that RTQ/RADQ enjoys. And don't get me twisted about agreeing to remove a feature, as the real point in OP's post was to fix the situation that really DOES need fixing. Bluntly, neither side of the advanced pub queues work. Heck, they weren't even well-adjusted to semi-truthful item levels needed for the dungeons/trials until M23 dropped (notice IC is still not a part of the queue. Ever think that might be because of the last DPS check in that dungeon is genuinely outrageous unless you spec ridiculous high stat items, on top of keeping head in the gameplan?).
I'm agreeing with that spirit. Drop the advanced queues. And replace it with a tutoring pub system. In return for some primo loot and AD (and even Zen! Limited accordingly), Veterans take on requests quests from 3 players, available a few times a week. Run the dungeons slow, teach the various mechanics, beat the last boss. Veterans get some good rewards (like guaranteed PAIR o'weapons for Zariel, or even the old Bleeding Citidel event-locked loot), newberries get bonus AD, pres wards, and other things they'll need to go from new to mid to endgame. Test it, see how it goes, then if it's a success, put the RTQ and RADQs back...only this time, they're far higher on item level and give better, endgame type rewards.
This theory doesn't hold up. And it doesn't hold up because what is developed, is actually recycled content, and deliberate killing of old content.
There was a public discourse over how difficult it was to program around apparently two particular items of desire: Band of Air and Devil's Ribcage. And in response to the conversation (which, to my recollections, the developers themselves started), they in their wisdom...slapped down a module making a 2.0 to the Ribcage and many, many other "same but new" items. And I point this out because it's DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for the death of popularity in the Avenus/Vallenhas zones. And hold that "but the dragon hunts are better!" comment that's entirely irrelevant to the point being made.
Point being: recycled content, and artificial shifting of the playerbase from the old content. In short, developer's responsibility for emptying out those areas, not ours. If that power is in developer's hands, then there's actually nothing at all stopping developers from placing a new vendor in Avernus, or a Juma 2.0 in Vallenhas, even throwing together a quick story about a baron of hell or demon looking to take territory to justify its presence. But then, this isn't a new argument since iirc Galactic made a video on the subject a month and some change back. The fix doesn't need to be new-but-old shinies when they could've just slapped a power quest on those old items and incentivized the entire playerbase to keep up the grind. Hell, they could have slipped the Dragon Hunt's system in there as the 2.0 patch over gambling for gore chains and coal wards. I doubt anyone would complain if there was a system to get guaranteed lores from map monsters and the minibosses.
To OP's end, I can see their concern as harsh, but valid. And I think it's valid for another point mentioned: Dilute the AD grind to all dungeon/trial queues—public, private, and otherwise—and suddenly there is zero need to run non-coorporative dungeons to the high degree of failure that RTQ/RADQ enjoys. And don't get me twisted about agreeing to remove a feature, as the real point in OP's post was to fix the situation that really DOES need fixing. Bluntly, neither side of the advanced pub queues work. Heck, they weren't even well-adjusted to semi-truthful item levels needed for the dungeons/trials until M23 dropped (notice IC is still not a part of the queue. Ever think that might be because of the last DPS check in that dungeon is genuinely outrageous unless you spec ridiculous high stat items, on top of keeping head in the gameplan?).
I'm agreeing with that spirit. Drop the advanced queues. And replace it with a tutoring pub system. In return for some primo loot and AD (and even Zen! Limited accordingly), Veterans take on requests quests from 3 players, available a few times a week. Run the dungeons slow, teach the various mechanics, beat the last boss. Veterans get some good rewards (like guaranteed PAIR o'weapons for Zariel, or even the old Bleeding Citidel event-locked loot), newberries get bonus AD, pres wards, and other things they'll need to go from new to mid to endgame. Test it, see how it goes, then if it's a success, put the RTQ and RADQs back...only this time, they're far higher on item level and give better, endgame type rewards.
Just spitballing.
We talk about trials as old content not Items. We talk about trial q system not about Ribcage gear from Avernus or BoA from HC Vault of starts dungeon.
Next day I get more time so I reRead you coment all over again. But here is my comment here.
Now about RTQ.
Random trial/dungeon q' system where introduced with Chult campaing, which is mod 12. In all previous modules Neverwinter didn't had Random dungeon/skirmish/trial system.
There where NCP in PE, it was giving quest daily. Quest for one epic dungeon, one for non epic dungeon, skirmish and that's it. WIth mod 12 release, that's before CoDG, we had only three trials, Tiamat( legacy 25 players) and mSvA, and demogorgon( legacy).
So well geared players q to mSvA, not so well gearead ended up with demo and tiamat. Now obviously mostly players ended up with Tiamat, demo trial become kida forgotten. Same fate where for mSva when CoDG got added in game with Lost city of Omu expansion( Mod 12.5).
So most playerbase started focusing on CoDG and Chult/omu campaing realated content. mSVa become nonsese, demo become nonsese. Tiamat, remain viable cuz was easiest trial, but that'st it. Did it offered any viable gear/item as reward? nop.
Now after some time, some went to mSva, even players knew CoDG, some where haven't done mSva and where cluless about mechanics, what ended up with hate/rage fiesta. Not so helpfull.
This is Neverwinter history. So I have slighly different view about this request to remove RTQ system. I have no interest to yet again sit for hours in q and think, will I have chance to do any trial today or not.
Now this part,
In short, developer's responsibility for emptying out those areas, not ours.
:
Point being: recycled content, and artificial shifting of the playerbase from the old content.
The playerbase shifting from old contnet to new is natural thing. Imagine situation, lets take Avernus hunts and IC dungeon, lets say you have all gear parts from hunts and dungeon. What you gona do now? Do IC yet another 50 rounds? Slay same t2 and t3 creatures yet another 20 times?
Other example. Imagine you have a same meal every day, nonstop for some time. And then one day you got a something new, fresh for your dinner. What you gona do? Would you have same meal as like last 2 month, or take new?
You are alreay bored. You want something new, That's why beween module/expansion release we can see decline activity within playerbase, a increase once new content got introduced.
Now to break players monotony and also keep interest in game, developers use Events. Their purpose is provide distraction for playerbase. It can be in various forms, either due specific date, winter festivals, New year, and etc. ,helloween, summer festival, aniversary. Ther are also times when staff log in as GM and make quick in game events, spanw specific creatures, or make various improvised activities( hide and seek, question contest, trasmute contest). Even as silly as Toss the coin event, where two player stand in front of each other and toss the coin or dice, the one with higher number is winner. Or like off game contents, like best promo video creation, story writing contests. Creativity is the key for this part.
But whole purpose to keep player interest in game till new expansion get realsed.
Now how make old content still interesting. Sadly not much you can do here. Eiher you have update same content with each new expansion, but that would be costly. ( horizantal progression). Or every certain expansion rework old content and bring as new. ( veritcal pogression).
As you realize Neverwinter went for vertical progression.
Demon lord artefact set got introuced in mod 8, and it was best set till mod 16. Also players stick with fey weapon enchantement. Due that players have high dps. There where no other in game compotents who could povide same or similar effect. So even if developers added something new, if there is no drive to get x item, players quickly stop doing old content. Which is bad for game.
I will not go in details explaining about what are main mmo rpg games pillars. Here is video which explain it.
And replace it with a tutoring pub system. In return for some primo loot and AD (and even Zen! Limited accordingly), Veterans take on requests quests from 3 players, available a few times a week.
Not so long there where debates in CDP (Collaborative Delopment Program), about QQL improvements, I suggested to implement Mentor/Game advisor system. So players who know would help players in game to learn stuffs and etc. As you unerstand the issue is that, who will do that? When I look to forum I can see only complain about pugs. I got in party with few players who don't have x IL, they should not be allowed to access to that dungeon.
Some complain about players who got in adult dragon hunts, again too low IL. I went in LoMM with pugs, and one loudtalker compalined why new players don't know LoMM mechanics ( that was rage fiesta). But how the new players can learn, if most playerbase want eliminate them from content in first place?
There is current situation that some even went like, you don't have over 70k IL, I don't run party with you. ( so "helpfull" for new player). Or like you don't have BoA, = you not welcome in ancient dragon hunt. ( yet again very "helpfull").
When I created my alt Rogue, there where one guy in PE Zone chat, which offered advices. For fun I pretended be new guy. So I asked his help/advice. He started say that I need buy this or that companion. Obviously from him, and he listed in AH for seeminly lesser price then others. ( more less doing marketing). Then second advice where stunning, buy zen with cash and convert them to AD. yeah sure like I would do that.
So while I don;t want be this person who bring negativity, but through all years of playing variour mmo games, I leared that if there is chance, players will scam. Not all, but some will do. That where in past, same is now, and that how always will be.
I think the better idea would be expand more on Guild/alliances. Let them teach new guys about game. Some games even have in guild Mentor system. Some have various others options..
Also whole random q system, somewhere I wrote how I would replace it.. But maybe I will share idea about next time..
p.s sorry I am late after work, and tired. So appologies for grammar/spelling mistakes..
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
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grogthemagnifMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,651Arc User
Trial queue can absolutely be done by a group of randoms with no voice comms or whatever other prep you think is needed. It requires people to do more than just mash buttons and pay attention to the environment and telegraphs. You are vastly overestimating the difficulty that these trials present. Sure, some adjustments are necessary, like being able to rejoin the fight, but the trials don't need to be removed from random queues. Or maybe adding a popup window warning the player that trials are harder and require following mechanics.
To ruin something is to destroy, you are asking to remove a type of random queue, one that you can just as easily ignore. There are players who do want to use this feature as the devs intend for it to be used. Just because you don't want to deal with failure or you don't want to miss some rAD, doesn't mean it should be removed. There are several different ways you can earn rAD, trials are no longer the easy rAD that it used to be.
No one is forcing players to queue for "content above their pay grade". It's up to the player to recognize what they can handle. If they only want to face roll content, then they should only do easy content, and not try and nerf everything to their level. Multiple levels of content exist and wanting to remove those levels should never be answer when the players who don't want the harder content can just not play it.
"Trial queue can absolutely be done by a group of randoms with no voice comms or whatever other prep you think is needed." Nope, not even close. Randoms usually mean 10-60% at the low end.
"You are vastly overestimating the difficulty that these trials present." I haven't been able to participate in the third iteration of Tiamat (The first being the 25 player Raid/Trial and the second being the 10 player Trial) yet due to usually N/A. So can neither agree or disagree. I will agree that it is hard to get into.
"Sure, some adjustments are necessary, like being able to rejoin the fight, but the trials don't need to be removed from random queues." This I agree with, especially the rejoining the fight which is a long-time Dungeon non-mechanic which can be dropped.
"No one is forcing players to queue for "content above their pay grade". It's up to the player to recognize what they can handle. If they only want to face roll content, then they should only do easy content, and not try and nerf everything to their level." One solution is to drop the scaling and let players play at their level.
Comments
Your assumption that new players would not make group for dungeons. That is a biggest nonsese ever. Now the reason why you may think so is rather obvious.
Players in Neverwinter get so used for automated party matching system ( queue) that forgot how to play rpg mmo games.
You know this part which called> Social interaction and communications<.
We have Zone, LFG ( looking for group) chats, and once you get in Protector Enclave, then without doubts you will notice that someone making party to do daily random q.
Other rpg mmo gameplay element is friendlist.
You do x content, and met player, eiher in dungeon via random q system or whatever. All went OK, you offer to add to friendlist. Next time you need someone to fill party, you offer players from friendlist to get in party.
Also lets not forget guilds/alliances.. Maybe some of your friends are part of x guild, so you may join same guild too.
Now the other very important part. Lot of new players do not instant ragequit. That's fact. Lot of players may repeat same boss fight even 10 times, and still have interest to do another 20 try.
But older players have too highly inflated their own importance, and ragequit at very start of dungeon if they notice that they may not get carried through.
So most players who abandon q's or AFK are not not new players, but someones new alt.
About month ago I where in LoMM, and other tham me, other four party members where under 40k IL. And only cleric ~37k IL have done skirmish Master of hunt. Others haven't done any dungeon before. So I had to explain not just dungeon mechanics but whole game combat system, stats and etc while also we where clearing dungeon.
And none of them QUIT, all went to the end. Even if heal and tank died multiple times, they didn't ragequit.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
You were talking about an unfair advantage for premade/friends, why would we have an unfair disadvantage on rAD while playing with friends, guildies, allymates ?
RQ goals :
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1234049/official-feedback-thread-random-queues/p1 Asterdhal precised, for the first and fifth point, which you can interpret as "helping strangers" : The new player bonus is independant of whether or not you premade with the said new player, whether or not it's a RQ, whether or not he is a stranger. I'm used to premade with a new guildie/new player (if he is level 20) to get him fast RQ in a friendly and communicative environement, fast rAD and explainations about the RQ system, this the very day we meet/he is invited in the guild, while also get mine (1 stone, 2 birds), though i don't really need more rAD in my stockpile since mod 14 change to 100k refinement/account.
Normal CoK only need 3 mechanics to be handled. maybe even 2 if your group dps is high.
1. Red circle on feet, we only got 3 red on each wave. And even if the person that got it somehow fail to move away from group just tell the tank to move the dragon
2. Spliting Valindra and Dragon. Just ask the tanks to take each of them, if the tank is inexperienced
3. Hypo = nuff said the hypo is nerfed alot, you can resist it with 3 ppl
People maybe still die because of pushback but nothing serious. So if you run Normal CoK on pug, just remind them with these 3 thing.
And lastly if you just want to cap your daily AD refining, you dont even have to do RTQ now. Even without role bonus you still can cap Rough AD by doing 1x Skirmish, 1x Advance Dungeon and 1x Normal Dungeon
Prior the random queues, a new guy might not manage to put up a group to do a quest dungeon for days.
The rest of comment kind of irrelevant. Reason is that, you mentione pre random q time and Pirate Retreat dungeon. So it's obviously you have in mind of pre mod 6 era. Why I skipped other part of your comment is is rather simple.
The pre mod 6 dungeons where different from what we have now. And whole situation where different..
I guess I need remind you the old days.
First of all what where main sources of rAD then? Answer where from daily quests> daily dungeon, daily epic dungeon, daily foundry.
The other source where salvage epic gear, which you could get only from epic dungeons.
In pre mod 6 there where two type dungeons, normal and epic version of same dungeons. Which you unlocked once reach lv 60 ( max). Epic version dungeon with upscaled enemies/creatures, and with additional mechanics.
The other reason why certain dungeons where more popular is that each dungeon dropped specific part of epic gear.
For example Temple of the Spider [Epic] where dropping Accursed Diabolist's Armor which where part of Scourge Warlocks's T2 armour set.
https://neverwinter.fandom.com/wiki/Accursed_Diabolist's_Armor
Oher dungeons dropped other parts, but accursed where not the only one set. Here is whole list.
https://neverwinter.fandom.com/wiki/Removed_Collection/Epic_Equipment_(Scourge_Warlock)#Accursed_Diabolist's_Armor_(Item_Level_276)
But warlocks where not only one class in game. Each class had own sets.
Now why Pirate retreat where less time compelted is simple. In that epic dungeon you where farming weapon sets. And in past this is how GWF offhand you could get there. And mind that it was not best off hand, and it where not set's, they have no set effect, so you could mix, get main from one dungeon, and offhand from other dungeon.
https://neverwinter.fandom.com/wiki/Knot_of_the_Avatar_of_War
So the situation in pre mod 6 and current q are wastly different. THe way how get AD also way different, and even dungeon purposes are different now. At that time there where no need of random q system, to recycle old content which players where skipping.
Neverwinter is theme park RPG mmo game, more less storry telling game. And also it use vertical progress system.
That's mean each new content and new gear, makes old gear less relevant. For example, how much relevant are companion gear from undermountain? And would you farm them, if even non best gear from sharandar which easier to get are on par or better than best ones from undermountain?
Same can be said about dungeons and their rewards. How much relevant is Lostmouth set now from Lostmouth + Shores of turen. If there would be not Random q system, no one would even bother to play older dungeon/skirmishes. And majority of playerbase would focus on two/three latest contents.
Other thing, just look to new lv 20 characters, their lv up gear already are better than what you get in lets say mSP epic dungeon or older dungeons. As you can see very little interest are to replay old contents.
Now I want to also be clear, that I am not fan on current random q system. But as long there is no proper alternatives, there is no point to ask for it's removal.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
New players sat in queue for hours and quit the game thinking the player base is dead, which leads to decline of the playerbase (no new players) and new players wait even more, and so on.
Instead of somehow consolidating the newer players we got the epic solution, named random queues. which put veteran players and new players into the same leveling dungeon.
Dev's were warned that it will lead to toxicity, suffering, tears and even more players quitting. Dev's did not listen.
Later we all got to say "We told you so"... But then it was somewhat late, sad, and after extensive bad "press" for new players about the game.
While player without best, where kind of left away. I remember clearly how I was siting in q for like hours, just to get in Shores of turen, hours for eToS. There where time that whole day you could not get in any non latest dungeon.
Once I q for mSP which where second latest dungeon, at first moment players rush to inspect your IL, and if does not match their expectation you are bootkick out of dungeon.
And it was rather usual thing, and there where plenty of threads created in forum where players complained about toxcity. Have you forgot that?
In short toxicity haven't change at all, neither increase with random q system, neither decrease. The percentages are exactly same.
Now lets say devs due some unknown reasons remove random q system. What chances are that players would do run eCC, Clock tower, FBI, eGwD?
All theme park rpg mmo games have same issue, only latest two exapansion realated content are relevant, while older ones are ignored.
Even now with random q, players do them only due rAD, and farming sepecific dungeons with premades or via private q with guild/allaince or players from friendlist.
Also it's safe to say that due Reapers challenge q players even notice that there are some other dungeons in game.
A lot of players don't even know older dungeons mechanics, cuz they never done them at all.
For example I knew player who have done Zariel(master), ToMM, CoK, yet he haven't one eCC, and eGwD. And when we got with RC there, he was not aware of dungeon mechanics.
When asked about other dungeons, he also haven't done MC, VT, even lostmouth and FBI.
So, asking to remove random q, it's same as ask developers remove 70% of game dungeons. Cuz without rAD as daily reward, no one would run them.
Now can Random q get reworked or repalced? Oh yeah, that can be done.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Looking at those goals compared to the current situation, it's easy to see that the devs' approach achieved none of them.
1) There is now even less variety in the RTQ thanks to pointless, more difficult versions of Tiamat and Demogorgon having been removed from that queue and almost all never material (TOMM, VOS) being too difficult for the vast majority of players.
2) OK, seals and daily bonus. They at least did that. Was that a problem before?
3) Yeah, whatever. Exclusionary BS like hardcore mode and reaper's challenge is there for people who want it. It is also loaded with low drop rates for the ingredients for a band of air, obtainable only in HCVOS, yet required of most DPS players in ancient dragon hunts now. It's the same old story of broken items and flavor of the month builds being required to play content. This has been a problem for a very long time. Some players have lives and jobs and can't be bothered to run HCVOS for three months to get a ring that they know will be nerfed sooner or later.
4) There's a difference between incentivizing support roles and requiring masterful healers and tanks for nearly all content. All they've accomplished is to bore a lot of DPS players senseless because they don't want to put in the vast time required to build a character in a class they don't want to play up to endgame level. Queue wait times, are if anything, much longer than they were with, of course, low rates of success for PUG groups.
5) Foster a positive environment. Sure. Excuse me while I stifle my cackles with a pillow for the next five minutes.
That's some painfully stilted PRspeak right there.
But anyhow, we know how it turned out.
Less variety, less opportunity, no one really bothers with RTQ and RADQ except with premade groups.
So of all these goals, the only one they successfully accomplished was the one that no one thought was a problem because it was already done: making AD and seal rewards clear.
I rest my case.
I disagreed with the idea (not yours) random queues (in general, not specifically RTQ) were designed to help strangers/solo players, and the idea queue rewards should be better the less premade the party is.
My oldschool opinion hasn't changed about queues : any matchmaking for PvE in a MMORPG is, generally, a bad solution. It encourages considering the guys we get in our party, thanks to an algorythm rather than social efforts, as Kleenex : disposable tissues we can blow our snot nose in before throwing in the bin and forever forget about.
Do I have a better solution considering what are the goals devs have ? nope ^^.
I'm just grumpy :P
Well I do read yours, and your whole argument based on it is "too hard" and it is not worth the effort.
Since the only trial that is new here is Normal CoK that you consider as extremely difficult to clear with pug, which is actually it is not and many people on this thread already mention it several time.
People already get used to current CODG and Svardborg so im not going there to discuss their "difficulty"
So what is the basis of your argument to remove them, if the argument it self is proven to be invalid.
Actually there are another methods considering RAD, and it got some "social effort" elements on it but take much much more time.
HE Trains
But there are problem with this, since now DR on well of dragon is gone and they change it with the Herald thingy that so embarassing, usually HE train like this only valid for new content. Remember Avernus Ensnared farm, Sharandar MHE farm and recent DB Valley HE train.
There was a public discourse over how difficult it was to program around apparently two particular items of desire: Band of Air and Devil's Ribcage. And in response to the conversation (which, to my recollections, the developers themselves started), they in their wisdom...slapped down a module making a 2.0 to the Ribcage and many, many other "same but new" items. And I point this out because it's DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for the death of popularity in the Avenus/Vallenhas zones. And hold that "but the dragon hunts are better!" comment that's entirely irrelevant to the point being made.
Point being: recycled content, and artificial shifting of the playerbase from the old content. In short, developer's responsibility for emptying out those areas, not ours. If that power is in developer's hands, then there's actually nothing at all stopping developers from placing a new vendor in Avernus, or a Juma 2.0 in Vallenhas, even throwing together a quick story about a baron of hell or demon looking to take territory to justify its presence. But then, this isn't a new argument since iirc Galactic made a video on the subject a month and some change back. The fix doesn't need to be new-but-old shinies when they could've just slapped a power quest on those old items and incentivized the entire playerbase to keep up the grind. Hell, they could have slipped the Dragon Hunt's system in there as the 2.0 patch over gambling for gore chains and coal wards. I doubt anyone would complain if there was a system to get guaranteed lores from map monsters and the minibosses.
To OP's end, I can see their concern as harsh, but valid. And I think it's valid for another point mentioned: Dilute the AD grind to all dungeon/trial queues—public, private, and otherwise—and suddenly there is zero need to run non-coorporative dungeons to the high degree of failure that RTQ/RADQ enjoys. And don't get me twisted about agreeing to remove a feature, as the real point in OP's post was to fix the situation that really DOES need fixing. Bluntly, neither side of the advanced pub queues work. Heck, they weren't even well-adjusted to semi-truthful item levels needed for the dungeons/trials until M23 dropped (notice IC is still not a part of the queue. Ever think that might be because of the last DPS check in that dungeon is genuinely outrageous unless you spec ridiculous high stat items, on top of keeping head in the gameplan?).
I'm agreeing with that spirit. Drop the advanced queues. And replace it with a tutoring pub system. In return for some primo loot and AD (and even Zen! Limited accordingly), Veterans take on requests quests from 3 players, available a few times a week. Run the dungeons slow, teach the various mechanics, beat the last boss. Veterans get some good rewards (like guaranteed PAIR o'weapons for Zariel, or even the old Bleeding Citidel event-locked loot), newberries get bonus AD, pres wards, and other things they'll need to go from new to mid to endgame. Test it, see how it goes, then if it's a success, put the RTQ and RADQs back...only this time, they're far higher on item level and give better, endgame type rewards.
Just spitballing.
Next day I get more time so I reRead you coment all over again. But here is my comment here.
Now about RTQ.
Random trial/dungeon q' system where introduced with Chult campaing, which is mod 12. In all previous modules Neverwinter didn't had Random dungeon/skirmish/trial system.
There where NCP in PE, it was giving quest daily. Quest for one epic dungeon, one for non epic dungeon, skirmish and that's it.
WIth mod 12 release, that's before CoDG, we had only three trials, Tiamat( legacy 25 players) and mSvA, and demogorgon( legacy).
So well geared players q to mSvA, not so well gearead ended up with demo and tiamat.
Now obviously mostly players ended up with Tiamat, demo trial become kida forgotten. Same fate where for mSva when CoDG got added in game with Lost city of Omu expansion( Mod 12.5).
So most playerbase started focusing on CoDG and Chult/omu campaing realated content. mSVa become nonsese, demo become nonsese.
Tiamat, remain viable cuz was easiest trial, but that'st it. Did it offered any viable gear/item as reward? nop.
Now after some time, some went to mSva, even players knew CoDG, some where haven't done mSva and where cluless about mechanics, what ended up with hate/rage fiesta. Not so helpfull.
This is Neverwinter history.
So I have slighly different view about this request to remove RTQ system. I have no interest to yet again sit for hours in q and think, will I have chance to do any trial today or not.
Now this part,
:
The playerbase shifting from old contnet to new is natural thing. Imagine situation, lets take Avernus hunts and IC dungeon, lets say you have all gear parts from hunts and dungeon. What you gona do now? Do IC yet another 50 rounds? Slay same t2 and t3 creatures yet another 20 times?
Other example.
Imagine you have a same meal every day, nonstop for some time. And then one day you got a something new, fresh for your dinner. What you gona do?
Would you have same meal as like last 2 month, or take new?
You are alreay bored. You want something new, That's why beween module/expansion release we can see decline activity within playerbase, a increase once new content got introduced.
Now to break players monotony and also keep interest in game, developers use Events. Their purpose is provide distraction for playerbase. It can be in various forms, either due specific date, winter festivals, New year, and etc. ,helloween, summer festival, aniversary.
Ther are also times when staff log in as GM and make quick in game events, spanw specific creatures, or make various improvised activities( hide and seek, question contest, trasmute contest). Even as silly as Toss the coin event, where two player stand in front of each other and toss the coin or dice, the one with higher number is winner.
Or like off game contents, like best promo video creation, story writing contests. Creativity is the key for this part.
But whole purpose to keep player interest in game till new expansion get realsed.
Now how make old content still interesting. Sadly not much you can do here.
Eiher you have update same content with each new expansion, but that would be costly. ( horizantal progression).
Or every certain expansion rework old content and bring as new. ( veritcal pogression).
As you realize Neverwinter went for vertical progression.
Demon lord artefact set got introuced in mod 8, and it was best set till mod 16. Also players stick with fey weapon enchantement. Due that players have high dps. There where no other in game compotents who could povide same or similar effect. So even if developers added something new, if there is no drive to get x item, players quickly stop doing old content. Which is bad for game.
I will not go in details explaining about what are main mmo rpg games pillars. Here is video which explain it.
Now the part. of:
Not so long there where debates in CDP (Collaborative Delopment Program), about QQL improvements, I suggested to implement Mentor/Game advisor system. So players who know would help players in game to learn stuffs and etc.
As you unerstand the issue is that, who will do that? When I look to forum I can see only complain about pugs.
I got in party with few players who don't have x IL, they should not be allowed to access to that dungeon.
Some complain about players who got in adult dragon hunts, again too low IL. I went in LoMM with pugs, and one loudtalker compalined why new players don't know LoMM mechanics ( that was rage fiesta).
But how the new players can learn, if most playerbase want eliminate them from content in first place?
There is current situation that some even went like, you don't have over 70k IL, I don't run party with you. ( so "helpfull" for new player). Or like you don't have BoA, = you not welcome in ancient dragon hunt. ( yet again very "helpfull").
When I created my alt Rogue, there where one guy in PE Zone chat, which offered advices. For fun I pretended be new guy. So I asked his help/advice. He started say that I need buy this or that companion. Obviously from him, and he listed in AH for seeminly lesser price then others. ( more less doing marketing).
Then second advice where stunning, buy zen with cash and convert them to AD. yeah sure like I would do that.
So while I don;t want be this person who bring negativity, but through all years of playing variour mmo games, I leared that if there is chance, players will scam. Not all, but some will do. That where in past, same is now, and that how always will be.
I think the better idea would be expand more on Guild/alliances. Let them teach new guys about game. Some games even have in guild Mentor system. Some have various others options..
Also whole random q system, somewhere I wrote how I would replace it.. But maybe I will share idea about next time..
p.s sorry I am late after work, and tired. So appologies for grammar/spelling mistakes..
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
"You are vastly overestimating the difficulty that these trials present." I haven't been able to participate in the third iteration of Tiamat (The first being the 25 player Raid/Trial and the second being the 10 player Trial) yet due to usually N/A. So can neither agree or disagree. I will agree that it is hard to get into.
"Sure, some adjustments are necessary, like being able to rejoin the fight, but the trials don't need to be removed from random queues." This I agree with, especially the rejoining the fight which is a long-time Dungeon non-mechanic which can be dropped.
"No one is forcing players to queue for "content above their pay grade". It's up to the player to recognize what they can handle. If they only want to face roll content, then they should only do easy content, and not try and nerf everything to their level." One solution is to drop the scaling and let players play at their level.