> @tommynocker001 said: > I've been playing this game for years and I've done many, many dungeons, grinding and playing my role as best I can. I suppose that's just not enough grind for you then. X)
No. The game has specific rewards for the particular grind that you do. If I grind ToMM, I would expect to get that weapon set. Not be gifted the mirage set from cryptic as a participation trophy. As I've also spent years grinding dungeons, I've never assumed I should be gifted items from content I don't do. Should I?
On that basis you expect people to accept you into their guild and carry you to victory, so you can grab the spoils of war. Not so much grinding as freeloading by your own criteria. the point is that unless you use this option, there is no way to step up to the next level and become applicable for the dungeons as you want to play them. For a game that relies on player choice, it's a great way to hammer flat the idea that you can achieve by playing solo.
0
arazith07Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,719Arc User
> @tommynocker001 said: > I've been playing this game for years and I've done many, many dungeons, grinding and playing my role as best I can. I suppose that's just not enough grind for you then. X)
No. The game has specific rewards for the particular grind that you do. If I grind ToMM, I would expect to get that weapon set. Not be gifted the mirage set from cryptic as a participation trophy. As I've also spent years grinding dungeons, I've never assumed I should be gifted items from content I don't do. Should I?
On that basis you expect people to accept you into their guild and carry you to victory, so you can grab the spoils of war. Not so much grinding as freeloading by your own criteria. the point is that unless you use this option, there is no way to step up to the next level and become applicable for the dungeons as you want to play them. For a game that relies on player choice, it's a great way to hammer flat the idea that you can achieve by playing solo.
This is an MMO, solo play is limited by nature. Often the best gear is gotten via group content.
Who said anything about expecting to be carried by your guild? The rewards from a single dungeon or trial aren't going to suddenly make a player perform noticeably better. That comes from the combination of multiple pieces of gear, and from player skill/group coordination. A guild run is going to be a lot smoother than that of 5-10 strangers on the simple basis of coordination.
2
greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,150Arc User
Well, It's a choice, if people choose to or not to it's up to them, but one choosing not to can't claim that those that chose have some advantage they do not.
I used to spend time on Preview. I found out in the long run it doesn't matter. Devs use the Preview players to find bugs. Players report the bugs.
Guess what? Once the content goes live players are still reporting the same bugs because they don't get fixed. Pretty much killed any interest I had of using Preview.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
4
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Well, It's a choice, if people choose to or not to it's up to them, but one choosing not to can't claim that those that chose have some advantage they do not.
I used to spend time on Preview. I found out in the long run it doesn't matter. Devs use the Preview players to find bugs. Players report the bugs.
Guess what? Once the content goes live players are still reporting the same bugs because they don't get fixed. Pretty much killed any interest I had of using Preview.
That's a different reason to use it or not. When you are training for some trial you can choose to do it on preview, and like was mentioned you don't have scroll costs, or gear costs. Or you can choose to do it on live. It's not related to bug reporting at all.
Your original argument was that it gives some advantage to someone, my argument is that since it's available to everyone it doesn't give one group or another an advantage, everyone free to use it or not, it's not limited to some.
We have different type of advantages, one is advantage over not using it, where IMO there is a significant one. And another advantage is over other groups of players, where there isn't any since everyone can use preview equally (on PC).
It's like if you can get a cheap car, it sure beats walking, but it's not some advantage over others since everyone can claim one (lets assume everyone can drive, and get the same discounted car, for this bad example).
0
greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,150Arc User
edited October 2021
No, it isn't. I said that the reason that I avoid use of Preview now is because it doesn't do what it was originally intended to do. There is no benefit. Particularly since the devs treat PC live as "Preview version 2".
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
> @tommynocker001 said: > On that basis you expect people to accept you into their guild and carry you to victory, so you can grab the spoils of war. Not so much grinding as freeloading by your own criteria. the point is that unless you use this option, there is no way to step up to the next level and become applicable for the dungeons as you want to play them. For a game that relies on player choice, it's a great way to hammer flat the idea that you can achieve by playing solo.
I feel like you just can't understand any of this. If you read what I said, I even state you need to be a worthy contributor. So to clarify even more. You work with a group of friends, guild or otherwise, who work together to complete the task. None of the people expecting to be carried out to carry. All instead are focused on learning and winning to obtain the particular items sought.
And you can step up to the next level for the next new dungeon because this is literally what always happens in this game. The top tier items are usually in top tier content. EVERYONE, has to do the "next level" stuff without the weapons hidden within that content. Your success in content is not exclusive to a weapon set. This is really all about baby game rage and coming here to whaaaa until someone gives you stuff.
To the other point, as said, it's an mmo. Group play is essentially the model. Luckily there is also solo play and plenty of it. Liking either option, or disliking for that matter, is a personal problem. Maybe no one has told you yet so I will... there is no game eutopia... so not everything will make you all happy inside.
Besides finger painting or creating a pop up book, I don't know how to simplify this any more for you.
1
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
No, it isn't. I said that the reason that I avoid use of Preview now is because it doesn't do what it was originally intended to do. There is no benefit. Particularly since the devs treat PC live as "Preview version 2".
It isn't what?
I'm not sure why it's even relevant what the benefit is for the devs, you brought it up as unfair advantage to players.
0
greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,150Arc User
I never used the words "unfair advantage". Nor implied it. I said and implied that players can get experience in a dungeon/trial/zone that translates to an advantage on live. I also said and implied, for a number of reasons, that it isn't worth the bother.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
1
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited October 2021
hmm, sorry, then I don't understand why you brought it up. Yes, I assumed (and looks like misunderstood) it was "unfair" since I didn't see other context.
Is it because I've said released? If so I've meant open to the public, preview included and not necessarily live. Since that point it's even ground. Or regardless, there are always a group/s that start without experience.
The point that at some point a group with 0 experienced people completed it, or tried it.
Equality means nothing if you don't make use of it. If everyone have access to knowledge but you choose to not make use of it and learn alone, guess who have the advantage? No one ever said "it's a paid option" or "only a selected few have access to it", we only said that the ppl that choosed to make use of it to train had a CLEAR advantage over those that didn't trained there.
An easy example: A game give you the chance to learn the mechanics of the game. You choose to ignore it and learn alone. You realize you don't understand HAMSTER and get mad cuz the game didn't explain to you how to play. Who is at fault here? The game that wanted to teach you or you that ignore it? The tutorial was there equally for everyone and, as equallity expected, it had the option to ignore it. So, who is at fault?
Preview it's the same, it's there for everyone with a pc, but if you choose to ignore it and it's "knowledge" you are clearly losing an advantage in some areas.
The meta it's just a guideline. And guidelines are boring.
Soulweaver: The Lovely Red Minstrel: The Rose Troubadour
2
plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,403Arc User
edited October 2021
Yes, those have knowledge have advantage over those who don't. Yes, those have spent time/heart to learn have advantage to obtain knowledge over those who don't. Yes, those spent more time to do something have advantage over who does less. Yes, those have a better ability to learn/understand have advantage to obtain knowledge over those who don't. Yes, those can see through the same limited material presented to them have advantage over those who can't. This applies to life.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
I learned tomm on live, my old computer wasn't good enough to run preview. As a tank, my very first run I got to beginning of 4th stage, the end, by simply knowing mechanics beforehand. I took several months after to get my first completion (tank is stuck hoping dps can do their job, usually not when it comes to trainings) because a friend asked me to run with them not knowing I hadn't completed before, finished as a duo tank. After that one completion, went on and did I think around 150 completions mostly as solo tank unless carrying another tank and 90 as pally healer, maybe 5-6 rounds as dps.
Sure. Preview is an advantage if you want it, but its not needed. Scrolls are so readily available now (were 19-22k ea when I started tomm), you don't need to stack up a bunch of health stones now that cost an arm and leg...
Also btw I'm not an "elite few", no one really knows my ingame name here, even if I put my name in here, no one still will know who I am. I was in the round table alliance when I got my set and moved to an alliance that at the time, was beyond casual. The alliance FGI when I first joined barely had anyone who could run tomm. Yet, they were able with effort to run it too, starting with 1 guild and eventually every guild there can run all content, including zariel and VoS.
Vezenta on PC here, nice to meet everyone.
4
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Equality means nothing if you don't make use of it. If everyone have access to knowledge but you choose to not make use of it and learn alone, guess who have the advantage? No one ever said "it's a paid option" or "only a selected few have access to it", we only said that the ppl that choosed to make use of it to train had a CLEAR advantage over those that didn't trained there.
An easy example: A game give you the chance to learn the mechanics of the game. You choose to ignore it and learn alone. You realize you don't understand HAMSTER and get mad cuz the game didn't explain to you how to play. Who is at fault here? The game that wanted to teach you or you that ignore it? The tutorial was there equally for everyone and, as equallity expected, it had the option to ignore it. So, who is at fault?
Preview it's the same, it's there for everyone with a pc, but if you choose to ignore it and it's "knowledge" you are clearly losing an advantage in some areas.
Ok, but what the point? I can also say that playing without sound is disadvantage, or using discord is an advantage, or multiple other variants. I fully agree that using preview is good, I've used it myself, but I don't follow how it is related?
Equality means everything at the start. As long as everyone have access to the same tools, resources and so on, they do not start with a disadvantage, if they chose to use or not use something for their disadvantage or advantage that is only up to them.
People who went to do it on preview for the first time before it went live had prior experience? No. So they managed to get the weapons without anyone requiring experienced people, right? That's the point.
I'm really not sure why there is even separation of preview and live for the purpose of experience, once content is available it's available, when/where people chose to do it, it's up to them.
The whole thing was about looking for experienced people. Preview or not, there had to be at least one group (in fact there were several) who did it without the need for experienced people since there were none in any case.
1
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited October 2021
If the point is to say that using preview over not using is an advantage, I fully agree. I think I've wrote it before too, even in my car example which is surely better than walking.
But I'm not sure how it negates my point or related? You do not start preview as experienced, nor preview is a privilege, everyone can get the same starting point by using it.
The main argument was that those that did tomm on preview had a clear advantage on live. That is a fact. But it got derealied. Now, why was an advantage? Cuz by the time they cleared it a lot of times on live, the rest (that didn't practiced it on preview) just started practicing it on live. And during all that time, the ones that already knew it started to sell their drops on the AH. That, is another advantage. They got their weapons before the rest, that (for ppl who care about "oohh new items, shiny") it's an advantage). That's was all. It wasn't a matter of equality, exclusion or anything alike. Just a fact that preview helped them get experience for when it came to live do it faster than the rest. A simple fact. For all i care they could have run it on live togheter or just went and explained to their guild/alliance. That doesn't change the fact that training it on preview before it's launch gave them an advantage. That was the whole point of the comment, nothing else. And i already explained with my first comment
And again, derailing. Playing without sound (at least this game) it is not a disadvantage. Here, everything is telegraphed. Everything gives you time to see it come and react. Discord? Advantage on training AT MOST. You could easily explain mechanics on the chat and leave it there so ppl can re-read it or even take a screenshot. And yes, it's obvious that those that did it on preview first had no experience. But when it mattered, they did have it. And that was the whole point of the comment before it got derailed. No one even once said "you start as experienced" only that there are old players that expect you to know everything. No one said "preview it's a privilege", only that use it gives you an advantage in live (at least most of the times). So i ask, why are you understanding that we are saying that "preview it's a privilege" and things like that?
All that was said, again and again and again, it's that using preview gives an advantage. A simple, cristal clear, fact. Still can't understand why you bringed equality, privilege and all that, when no one implied it.
Negate or relate? I don't care about negate since it's your opinion, everyone can have one even if it's good or bad. Relate? It was all related but either was bad explained or you didn't understand since your replys where the preview comment in different wording or you adding things were never said. So anyone (or both) can be at fault.
All i wanted to do since the first comment was to make clear that: 1) Those that did it on preview had an advantage on live (yes yes yes WE ALL know that they started inexperienced on preview). 2) Preview is a tool that can help you get experiences for FREE, hence an advantage on live. 3) Even if its there for everyone, only a FEW use it.
English is not my main, but im amazed how ppl speaking the same language (being this or another one) can't understand eachother. I am trully amazed (not in an insulting way).
The meta it's just a guideline. And guidelines are boring.
Soulweaver: The Lovely Red Minstrel: The Rose Troubadour
(answer to the original poster, i didn't really read all the comments ^^)
Asking for prerequisites for a PU/LFM premade, though something that doesn't look great at all within a community, is still perfectly fine. My group : my "rules". If you don't like my "rules", then make your own premade, or get a circle of friends and hardtry together the dungeon/trial to learn its mechanics by yourself like plenty did months (or years) ago.
I completed ToMM once (after some 8 training sessions). No more, mostly because i don't like 10players trial content in general (i really prefer 5players dungeon content), and if I don't enjoy a content, I definitely won't repeatedly force myself in just to grab some virtual stuff. And anyway, those weapons aren't even required at all to do anything : i'm doing perfectly fine in any current content without them. I don't care about "being BiS" or, and I don't care about leading the weenie-meter, as long as my party can finish the dungeon/trial and my contribution is good enough.
Nothing of value is granted. Neverwinter being a MMORPG, being able to socialize is far more important than anything else in order to progress and succeed. If you want to do any endgame content, you must build your relationships at least as much as you build your virtual toon. That's the very level 0 of RolePlaying in a mmoRPg.
Unrelated thought : i'm playing MMORPGs since Ultima Online in the mid 90's and, in my opinion, the automated queue/matchmaking for PvE content is one of the worst thing MMORPGs have invented. It kind of discourages gamers to value relationships and social part of the game (though they really should value it), and also let them see other players much more like disposable handkerchief (blow your nose in and discard) while paradoxally also thinking these other unknowned players should be at their disposal and/or meet their expectations in skill/knowledge/efficiency/speed/etc when they get them in LFM or with RQ matchmaking.
0
arazith07Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,719Arc User
All i wanted to do since the first comment was to make clear that: 1) Those that did it on preview had an advantage on live (yes yes yes WE ALL know that they started inexperienced on preview). 2) Preview is a tool that can help you get experiences for FREE, hence an advantage on live. 3) Even if its there for everyone, only a FEW use it.
English is not my main, but im amazed how ppl speaking the same language (being this or another one) can't understand eachother. I am trully amazed (not in an insulting way).
1. Everyone with a PC that isn't ancient can access Preview 2. Yes it's free, and provides an advantage 3. Just because only a few use it, doesn't mean it's exclusive and should not be used as an argument about it being unfair to those that don't use it.
0
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
The main argument was that those that did tomm on preview had a clear advantage on live. That is a fact. But it got derealied. Now, why was an advantage? Cuz by the time they cleared it a lot of times on live, the rest (that didn't practiced it on preview) just started practicing it on live. And during all that time, the ones that already knew it started to sell their drops on the AH. That, is another advantage. They got their weapons before the rest, that (for ppl who care about "oohh new items, shiny") it's an advantage). That's was all. It wasn't a matter of equality, exclusion or anything alike. Just a fact that preview helped them get experience for when it came to live do it faster than the rest. A simple fact. For all i care they could have run it on live togheter or just went and explained to their guild/alliance. That doesn't change the fact that training it on preview before it's launch gave them an advantage. That was the whole point of the comment, nothing else. And i already explained with my first comment
And again, derailing. Playing without sound (at least this game) it is not a disadvantage. Here, everything is telegraphed. Everything gives you time to see it come and react. Discord? Advantage on training AT MOST. You could easily explain mechanics on the chat and leave it there so ppl can re-read it or even take a screenshot. And yes, it's obvious that those that did it on preview first had no experience. But when it mattered, they did have it. And that was the whole point of the comment before it got derailed. No one even once said "you start as experienced" only that there are old players that expect you to know everything. No one said "preview it's a privilege", only that use it gives you an advantage in live (at least most of the times). So i ask, why are you understanding that we are saying that "preview it's a privilege" and things like that?
All that was said, again and again and again, it's that using preview gives an advantage. A simple, cristal clear, fact. Still can't understand why you bringed equality, privilege and all that, when no one implied it.
Negate or relate? I don't care about negate since it's your opinion, everyone can have one even if it's good or bad. Relate? It was all related but either was bad explained or you didn't understand since your replys where the preview comment in different wording or you adding things were never said. So anyone (or both) can be at fault.
All i wanted to do since the first comment was to make clear that: 1) Those that did it on preview had an advantage on live (yes yes yes WE ALL know that they started inexperienced on preview). 2) Preview is a tool that can help you get experiences for FREE, hence an advantage on live. 3) Even if its there for everyone, only a FEW use it.
English is not my main, but im amazed how ppl speaking the same language (being this or another one) can't understand eachother. I am trully amazed (not in an insulting way).
I'm sorry, you keep repeating the same, but it has nothing to do with what I'm saying. My point in the first post, was about equality. Hence I talk about equality. The same way the first groups did it, be it on preview or live or in their imagination, they made it without requiring experienced people. As opposed to the OP complaint that they can't do it since it requires someone experienced. The equality is in that they have the same conditions as the first groups, all tools (and more) available.
They can go to preview and do it, they can go to live and do it. The people who did it first didn't have an advantage over what people have now. That is it.
I've never claimed that preview is not an advantage over not preview. When the content was released (to the public, on preview) most started at the same equal point, what you do from there is your choice.
You can use discord to learn faster, you can use preview, you can watch others, you can do whatever, but all those tools are available to everyone equally, so no group of people or a person starts with some starting disadvantage, what they impose on themselves by not using some tools or knowledge or whatever offered to them equality to others is only of their choice and their fault.
The whole discussion is about people who started without experience, at live preview or wherever. The whole topic of preview is really not brought up by me, and not really relevant to the point.
1
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
@cirran1 I understand you are bored, you may spend your time better playing the game, and maybe organizing some training runs.
Define ancient. I had a 256MB video card and 3gb of ram until 1-2 years ago, and when they first "upgraded" the system requirements i was able to use it as i used the live server. If you want more info on ancient, im from Argentina and our internet it's quite bad. So add all that up and please tell me what you consider ancient. Want more info? It was an AIO.
Other than that, why are you repeating what i said but with different words?
And i apologize if i sound rude, that is not the case. Im just really blunt and go straight to the point.
The meta it's just a guideline. And guidelines are boring.
Soulweaver: The Lovely Red Minstrel: The Rose Troubadour
A big advantage to the preview server: When a new dungeon/trial goes live on the 3 platforms, people immediately look for videos on how to get through it.
They are available immediately because people took the time to record them on the preview server then share them for the benefit of everyone else.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Is there another MMORPG similar to this one, without the elite few? The few are elite because the chat channel to train for tomm, is only for those who have completed tomm. But my question now would be, maybe ESO, I would like to know another mmo to play
0
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Is there another MMORPG similar to this one, without the elite few? The few are elite because the chat channel to train for tomm, is only for those who have completed tomm. But my question now would be, maybe ESO, I would like to know another mmo to play
Will you make your own training group in ESO? Your channel if the one existing will not be to your liking? Will you look for a guild that does training for the end game content that you want?
If the answer is No, then a different game will not help. If the answer is Yes, then you can do the same in Neverwinter.
OK, is there a guild that has end game training? I am the type of player who is loyal to a guild, but maybe its time for me to find a new one. I have seen members of my current alliance, who have advanced leave , so maybe that's a sign for me to leave. I don't freeload, I have the Mirage set , so you know I grind. I would love to join a guild that runs end game content as an alliance and guild. I try to help others that are new but I'm not as experienced as most others. Basically I'm asking to join a guild that runs end game content. I can start at the beginning with other new members of an alliance or guild and help run the content. So please let me know if you have a spot for another!
I still don't understand the meaning of this thread.
Lionheart set you can buy from AH now, due ubind tokens. Also the set itself is less important in current Neverwitner version.
As example take rogue, stack up as CA as high you can. Add this latest demogorgon set. Tales of old (x3 book set) or alternative use Decanter of Atropal Essence as main artefact. Get lightning Weapon enchantment. And with this set up you clear any game content without any problems.
Due lightning + demon set + Tales of old set/Decanter of Atropal Essence intereaction you cause dps loop. Who melt any group of enemies within seconds. But thats not all, add rogues bleed who proc lightning who land crit hits who proc demo set + tales of old. Or add Decanter of Atropal Essence as extra hit for every your hit.
So do you need this lion weapon set?? only if you want it as transmute. Other than that, it's not important anymore.
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
Well I played the game a few years - the Zariel's Master (at one point there wasn't 2 versions) and ToMM - were pretty easy if you were well enough prepared and had the regular high power gear - but since some point around the combat changes they became not popular as much as you hardly saw a LFM in protector's anymore - but piles for BBZ - and I am in a guild - I did training - but training sometimes is that - just a quick run through to get a better idea of the Trial and tips and so on
However, a real run - one that goes to completion is still not very easy to come into, hardly anyone doing LFMs - ones that are run mostly become failures - IDK why!! - it's a mystery - and though a good crew gets into these places and runs them just fine, a regular player who may not have had the opportunity to join such a crew is outta luck - and I am such a player!!! LoL
I want to farm Zariel's weapon sets but hardly see anyone running the Z master trial - and you know what I think? I think the Trials are too hard - too impossible to get into for an average distribution of players at a given time - it requires a crew - one that can work well and are suitably equipped - and these types of groups aren't available to the regular player with the regular skill distributions around - and thus it is almost impossible to join a run or whatever
- if there was a drive by anyone, a drive by a veteran crew who could carry like 2 or 3 players a run, it would become more realistic - like a ToMM-Masters channel, or Z-Masters - these channels could have like 6-8 players at any given time who could carry 2 or 3 more through it, then add to their ranks and multiply - thus in a short span of time, the Masters channel would be filled with players who are proficient and experienced and can carry others in the same manner!
I was thinking about it a lot and since I saw this post I thought I'd suggest it and maybe anyone who has buddies or knows people who are Masters and would like to get into a drive such as this could start it - I am mostly a Watcher Run person as most of my buddies aren't Masters or haven't yet become Masters. If you do, drop me a line!
And in the end, if the reduction of difficulty results in a loss of novelty or rarity, it's only because it'd be open to more people who could run it and get the weapons, and more people who could do that content and have fun farming the weps - it's just flat for the regular player right now...
Here's an interesting topic, many wanted these weapons, but they don't even know they aren't the best in the game. Well, now they are in AH for anyone who wants to buy them.
Comments
Who said anything about expecting to be carried by your guild? The rewards from a single dungeon or trial aren't going to suddenly make a player perform noticeably better. That comes from the combination of multiple pieces of gear, and from player skill/group coordination. A guild run is going to be a lot smoother than that of 5-10 strangers on the simple basis of coordination.
Guess what? Once the content goes live players are still reporting the same bugs because they don't get fixed. Pretty much killed any interest I had of using Preview.
It's not related to bug reporting at all.
Your original argument was that it gives some advantage to someone, my argument is that since it's available to everyone it doesn't give one group or another an advantage, everyone free to use it or not, it's not limited to some.
We have different type of advantages, one is advantage over not using it, where IMO there is a significant one.
And another advantage is over other groups of players, where there isn't any since everyone can use preview equally (on PC).
It's like if you can get a cheap car, it sure beats walking, but it's not some advantage over others since everyone can claim one (lets assume everyone can drive, and get the same discounted car, for this bad example).
> On that basis you expect people to accept you into their guild and carry you to victory, so you can grab the spoils of war. Not so much grinding as freeloading by your own criteria. the point is that unless you use this option, there is no way to step up to the next level and become applicable for the dungeons as you want to play them. For a game that relies on player choice, it's a great way to hammer flat the idea that you can achieve by playing solo.
I feel like you just can't understand any of this. If you read what I said, I even state you need to be a worthy contributor. So to clarify even more. You work with a group of friends, guild or otherwise, who work together to complete the task. None of the people expecting to be carried out to carry. All instead are focused on learning and winning to obtain the particular items sought.
And you can step up to the next level for the next new dungeon because this is literally what always happens in this game. The top tier items are usually in top tier content. EVERYONE, has to do the "next level" stuff without the weapons hidden within that content. Your success in content is not exclusive to a weapon set. This is really all about baby game rage and coming here to whaaaa until someone gives you stuff.
To the other point, as said, it's an mmo. Group play is essentially the model. Luckily there is also solo play and plenty of it. Liking either option, or disliking for that matter, is a personal problem. Maybe no one has told you yet so I will... there is no game eutopia... so not everything will make you all happy inside.
Besides finger painting or creating a pop up book, I don't know how to simplify this any more for you.
I'm not sure why it's even relevant what the benefit is for the devs, you brought it up as unfair advantage to players.
Is it because I've said released? If so I've meant open to the public, preview included and not necessarily live. Since that point it's even ground. Or regardless, there are always a group/s that start without experience.
The point that at some point a group with 0 experienced people completed it, or tried it.
No one ever said "it's a paid option" or "only a selected few have access to it", we only said that the ppl that choosed to make use of it to train had a CLEAR advantage over those that didn't trained there.
An easy example:
A game give you the chance to learn the mechanics of the game. You choose to ignore it and learn alone. You realize you don't understand HAMSTER and get mad cuz the game didn't explain to you how to play. Who is at fault here? The game that wanted to teach you or you that ignore it?
The tutorial was there equally for everyone and, as equallity expected, it had the option to ignore it. So, who is at fault?
Preview it's the same, it's there for everyone with a pc, but if you choose to ignore it and it's "knowledge" you are clearly losing an advantage in some areas.
Soulweaver: The Lovely Red
Minstrel: The Rose Troubadour
Yes, those have spent time/heart to learn have advantage to obtain knowledge over those who don't.
Yes, those spent more time to do something have advantage over who does less.
Yes, those have a better ability to learn/understand have advantage to obtain knowledge over those who don't.
Yes, those can see through the same limited material presented to them have advantage over those who can't.
This applies to life.
Sure. Preview is an advantage if you want it, but its not needed. Scrolls are so readily available now (were 19-22k ea when I started tomm), you don't need to stack up a bunch of health stones now that cost an arm and leg...
Also btw I'm not an "elite few", no one really knows my ingame name here, even if I put my name in here, no one still will know who I am. I was in the round table alliance when I got my set and moved to an alliance that at the time, was beyond casual. The alliance FGI when I first joined barely had anyone who could run tomm. Yet, they were able with effort to run it too, starting with 1 guild and eventually every guild there can run all content, including zariel and VoS.
Vezenta on PC here, nice to meet everyone.
I fully agree that using preview is good, I've used it myself, but I don't follow how it is related?
Equality means everything at the start. As long as everyone have access to the same tools, resources and so on, they do not start with a disadvantage, if they chose to use or not use something for their disadvantage or advantage that is only up to them.
People who went to do it on preview for the first time before it went live had prior experience? No.
So they managed to get the weapons without anyone requiring experienced people, right? That's the point.
I'm really not sure why there is even separation of preview and live for the purpose of experience, once content is available it's available, when/where people chose to do it, it's up to them.
The whole thing was about looking for experienced people. Preview or not, there had to be at least one group (in fact there were several) who did it without the need for experienced people since there were none in any case.
But I'm not sure how it negates my point or related?
You do not start preview as experienced, nor preview is a privilege, everyone can get the same starting point by using it.
Now, why was an advantage? Cuz by the time they cleared it a lot of times on live, the rest (that didn't practiced it on preview) just started practicing it on live. And during all that time, the ones that already knew it started to sell their drops on the AH. That, is another advantage. They got their weapons before the rest, that (for ppl who care about "oohh new items, shiny") it's an advantage). That's was all. It wasn't a matter of equality, exclusion or anything alike. Just a fact that preview helped them get experience for when it came to live do it faster than the rest. A simple fact.
For all i care they could have run it on live togheter or just went and explained to their guild/alliance. That doesn't change the fact that training it on preview before it's launch gave them an advantage. That was the whole point of the comment, nothing else. And i already explained with my first comment
And again, derailing. Playing without sound (at least this game) it is not a disadvantage. Here, everything is telegraphed. Everything gives you time to see it come and react. Discord? Advantage on training AT MOST. You could easily explain mechanics on the chat and leave it there so ppl can re-read it or even take a screenshot.
And yes, it's obvious that those that did it on preview first had no experience. But when it mattered, they did have it. And that was the whole point of the comment before it got derailed.
No one even once said "you start as experienced" only that there are old players that expect you to know everything. No one said "preview it's a privilege", only that use it gives you an advantage in live (at least most of the times). So i ask, why are you understanding that we are saying that "preview it's a privilege" and things like that?
All that was said, again and again and again, it's that using preview gives an advantage. A simple, cristal clear, fact. Still can't understand why you bringed equality, privilege and all that, when no one implied it.
Negate or relate? I don't care about negate since it's your opinion, everyone can have one even if it's good or bad. Relate? It was all related but either was bad explained or you didn't understand since your replys where the preview comment in different wording or you adding things were never said. So anyone (or both) can be at fault.
All i wanted to do since the first comment was to make clear that:
1) Those that did it on preview had an advantage on live (yes yes yes WE ALL know that they started inexperienced on preview).
2) Preview is a tool that can help you get experiences for FREE, hence an advantage on live.
3) Even if its there for everyone, only a FEW use it.
English is not my main, but im amazed how ppl speaking the same language (being this or another one) can't understand eachother. I am trully amazed (not in an insulting way).
Soulweaver: The Lovely Red
Minstrel: The Rose Troubadour
Asking for prerequisites for a PU/LFM premade, though something that doesn't look great at all within a community, is still perfectly fine.
My group : my "rules". If you don't like my "rules", then make your own premade, or get a circle of friends and hardtry together the dungeon/trial to learn its mechanics by yourself like plenty did months (or years) ago.
I completed ToMM once (after some 8 training sessions). No more, mostly because i don't like 10players trial content in general (i really prefer 5players dungeon content), and if I don't enjoy a content, I definitely won't repeatedly force myself in just to grab some virtual stuff. And anyway, those weapons aren't even required at all to do anything : i'm doing perfectly fine in any current content without them. I don't care about "being BiS" or, and I don't care about leading the weenie-meter, as long as my party can finish the dungeon/trial and my contribution is good enough.
Nothing of value is granted. Neverwinter being a MMORPG, being able to socialize is far more important than anything else in order to progress and succeed. If you want to do any endgame content, you must build your relationships at least as much as you build your virtual toon. That's the very level 0 of RolePlaying in a mmoRPg.
Unrelated thought : i'm playing MMORPGs since Ultima Online in the mid 90's and, in my opinion, the automated queue/matchmaking for PvE content is one of the worst thing MMORPGs have invented. It kind of discourages gamers to value relationships and social part of the game (though they really should value it), and also let them see other players much more like disposable handkerchief (blow your nose in and discard) while paradoxally also thinking these other unknowned players should be at their disposal and/or meet their expectations in skill/knowledge/efficiency/speed/etc when they get them in LFM or with RQ matchmaking.
2. Yes it's free, and provides an advantage
3. Just because only a few use it, doesn't mean it's exclusive and should not be used as an argument about it being unfair to those that don't use it.
They can go to preview and do it, they can go to live and do it. The people who did it first didn't have an advantage over what people have now.
That is it.
I've never claimed that preview is not an advantage over not preview. When the content was released (to the public, on preview) most started at the same equal point, what you do from there is your choice.
You can use discord to learn faster, you can use preview, you can watch others, you can do whatever, but all those tools are available to everyone equally, so no group of people or a person starts with some starting disadvantage, what they impose on themselves by not using some tools or knowledge or whatever offered to them equality to others is only of their choice and their fault.
The whole discussion is about people who started without experience, at live preview or wherever. The whole topic of preview is really not brought up by me, and not really relevant to the point.
Other than that, why are you repeating what i said but with different words?
And i apologize if i sound rude, that is not the case. Im just really blunt and go straight to the point.
Soulweaver: The Lovely Red
Minstrel: The Rose Troubadour
Soulweaver: The Lovely Red
Minstrel: The Rose Troubadour
They are available immediately because people took the time to record them on the preview server then share them for the benefit of everyone else.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
If the answer is No, then a different game will not help.
If the answer is Yes, then you can do the same in Neverwinter.
Lionheart set you can buy from AH now, due ubind tokens.
Also the set itself is less important in current Neverwitner version.
As example take rogue, stack up as CA as high you can.
Add this latest demogorgon set.
Tales of old (x3 book set) or alternative use Decanter of Atropal Essence as main artefact.
Get lightning Weapon enchantment.
And with this set up you clear any game content without any problems.
Due lightning + demon set + Tales of old set/Decanter of Atropal Essence intereaction you cause dps loop. Who melt any group of enemies within seconds.
But thats not all, add rogues bleed who proc lightning who land crit hits who proc demo set + tales of old.
Or add Decanter of Atropal Essence as extra hit for every your hit.
So do you need this lion weapon set?? only if you want it as transmute. Other than that, it's not important anymore.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
However, a real run - one that goes to completion is still not very easy to come into, hardly anyone doing LFMs - ones that are run mostly become failures - IDK why!! - it's a mystery - and though a good crew gets into these places and runs them just fine, a regular player who may not have had the opportunity to join such a crew is outta luck - and I am such a player!!! LoL
I want to farm Zariel's weapon sets but hardly see anyone running the Z master trial - and you know what I think? I think the Trials are too hard - too impossible to get into for an average distribution of players at a given time - it requires a crew - one that can work well and are suitably equipped - and these types of groups aren't available to the regular player with the regular skill distributions around - and thus it is almost impossible to join a run or whatever
- if there was a drive by anyone, a drive by a veteran crew who could carry like 2 or 3 players a run, it would become more realistic - like a ToMM-Masters channel, or Z-Masters - these channels could have like 6-8 players at any given time who could carry 2 or 3 more through it, then add to their ranks and multiply - thus in a short span of time, the Masters channel would be filled with players who are proficient and experienced and can carry others in the same manner!
I was thinking about it a lot and since I saw this post I thought I'd suggest it and maybe anyone who has buddies or knows people who are Masters and would like to get into a drive such as this could start it - I am mostly a Watcher Run person as most of my buddies aren't Masters or haven't yet become Masters. If you do, drop me a line!
And in the end, if the reduction of difficulty results in a loss of novelty or rarity, it's only because it'd be open to more people who could run it and get the weapons, and more people who could do that content and have fun farming the weps - it's just flat for the regular player right now...