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Remove the ability to bind keys

kyjle6akakyjle6aka Member Posts: 23 Arc User
Please remove the ability to bind keys. This mainly concerns a new class-the bard. I understand that it will be difficult for the bard without binding keys, but such is the peculiarity of the bard class that you need to completely enter the exact key combination for the sake of using skills. Let this be a certain entry threshold for playing as a bard. If it will be difficult to play as a bard without using binds, then perhaps this is not your class.

Comments

  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    So, you want to get rid of a feature that many people have been using for years (since the beginning of the game) just because of a new class coming up in the future?
    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • rockster#6227 rockster Member Posts: 777 Arc User
    If I lose the ability to move keybinds around to more suitable positions and also bind all my emotes to unused keys I will be very very very very very very unhappy. Anyway I think you're talking about macros and they aren't allowed in the game as far as I know.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,206 Arc User
    Rule of thumb is one keystroke, one action.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • tchefi#6735 tchefi Member Posts: 307 Arc User
    edited July 7

    If I lose the ability to move keybinds around to more suitable positions and also bind all my emotes to unused keys I will be very very very very very very unhappy. Anyway I think you're talking about macros and they aren't allowed in the game as far as I know.

    Agree about the emotes ! I would be very bothered if I'm forced to type rather than one key for bowing, cheering or sleeping on the ground !
    But there are also keybinds for VIP travel sign/bank/mailbox/vendors, the keybind to go back to character selection without going through the menu (extremely interesting for anyone who has an alt-army), keybinds on specific chat messages some are using to warn about mechanics during fights, etc, etc.

    Question : are the bard using the NWO commandaliases.txt file to automatize their songs/the succession of command to use ? or do they do that with something exterior to NWO (like a programmable button on a mouse) which would mean that it has nothing to do with NWO keybinding ?
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,887 Arc User
    The OP plays a cleric - I wonder if there's an agenda for wanting to keep people from playing the Bard...?
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  • alfa1777alfa1777 Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    thanks, but NO, i don't want to broke mi finger every time that i have to use the mount because the base bind is on the "7" I am very happy to have the mount on the "Z" nd not every player is the same when play the same game
  • rockster#6227 rockster Member Posts: 777 Arc User
    alfa1777 said:

    thanks, but NO, i don't want to broke mi finger every time that i have to use the mount because the base bind is on the "7" I am very happy to have the mount on the "Z" nd not every player is the same when play the same game

    I use the ` key. :-)
  • kyjle6akakyjle6aka Member Posts: 23 Arc User
    Ok, let's bind the bard keys so that you can enter the whole combination with 1 button at once. I am sure that bards will use binds to avoid entering long combinations.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    kyjle6aka said:

    Ok, let's bind the bard keys so that you can enter the whole combination with 1 button at once. I am sure that bards will use binds to avoid entering long combinations.

    Can you do that in preview as you did it? Or, you think /bind can do that?
    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • fritz#8093 fritz Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    I have reported this in the preview thread some weeks ago. Not sure what the current state is, but this topic suggests it's still very much an issue. Or well "issue". You can indeed bypass the core Bard mechanic of manually playing songs by binding entire song sequences to one hotkey. I think it's not intended to build yourself unlimited quickplay slots that way that bring all benefits of manual play, but killing an otherwise massively useful feature is not the answer. Much less because this affects only one class and won't be an issue on consoles anyway.

    I don't even think the gameplay advantage is that huge. So you can fire off your songs a little faster, great. Like all keybinds it's convenience mostly.
  • tchefi#6735 tchefi Member Posts: 307 Arc User
    edited July 8

    kyjle6aka said:

    Ok, let's bind the bard keys so that you can enter the whole combination with 1 button at once. I am sure that bards will use binds to avoid entering long combinations.

    Can you do that in preview as you did it? Or, you think /bind can do that?
    I'm unsure, will test it this week-end (despite i try to stay as away as possible from any bard spoiler ^^').
    It wouldn't work if you tried a sequence of encounters for exemple, but with the bard's specific mechanic on perform, maybe...

    I still guess it's not done with the true official commands of neverwinter, and "song" hotkeys are managed with something external (which is not really "legal" :P).


    About aliases :
    With the ingame command /alias, or via the persistant commandaliases.txt file , you can create personnal commands (or batch of commands) to be used ingame with "/aliasname" or to be binded with "/bind aliasname".

    In my commandaliases.txt, I have for exemple an installVIP alias that allows me, when I create a new toon, to instantly binds all the useful VIP functions on the numpad keys, or another one that binds invoke+return to character selection (extremely usefull as it shaves a lot of clic in the menu when I invoke on my 42 alts) + other useful shortcuts.

    It goes like this for /installVIP :
    alias installVIP "bind numpad1 gensendMessage Vipaction_Overworldmapteleport activate $$ bind numpad5 gensendMessage Vipaction_Sealvendor activate $$ bind numpad3 gensendMessage Vipaction_Bankvendor activate $$ bind numpad4 gensendMessage Vipaction_Professionvendor activate $$ bind numpad2 gensendMessage Vipaction_Mailbox activate"

    /installFct
    alias ivkc "invoke $$ gotocharacterselect"
    alias lv "Team_Leave $$ GenSendMessage Match_Leavemrg Activate"
    alias installFct "bind alt+f ++interact $$ bind ctrl+q lv $$ bind ctrl+u ivkc $$ bind ctrl+p gotoCharacterSelect $$ bind ctrl+k gensendmessage Stuck_Defeatme Activate"

    /installemote
    alias 0001 "emote bow"
    alias 0002 "walk 1"
    alias 0003 "walk 0"
    alias 0004 "e jumping_jacks"
    alias 0005 "e pushups"
    alias 0006 "e point"

    alias installemote "bind shift+b 0001 $$ bind w 0002 $$ bind shift+w 0003 $$ bind shift+j 0004 $$ bind shift+p 0005 $$ bind p 0006"

    Some links where people explained/detailed/experimented way better than I would ever be able to (some are a bit outdated as few commands have been deleted/created by the devs since):
    https://jannenw.info/pages/other-info/aliases (:P)
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/12974287
    https://neverwinter.fandom.com/wiki/User:Wendylblack/tricks

    list of existing commands :
    https://neverwinter.fandom.com/wiki/Console_command

  • catson#7772 catson Member Posts: 81 Arc User
    That would do more damage than help anything.
  • hotfrostwormhotfrostworm Member Posts: 334 Arc User
    This isn't going to happen, the core game uses them, they are the lowest of the commands. If they restrict keybinding the game would become instantly unplayable. The original poster needs to learn and research before they put their own foot in their mouth.

    Key binding and alias are not macros. I can tell the same key to perform 2 actions but one action will cancel the other action out. In short, I cannot set up combos to go off with one keystroke using the game system. The systems are in place for the users to set up some simple toggles and remap their keyboards.

    However since the game has no anti-cheat in place, there is nothing stopping players from using 3D party programs. People can and probably do use macro mice and keyboards. People can set up much more advanced macro systems on their own, the only way they will be caught is bragging about it.

    Be sure to let them know the day Cryptic starts using anti-cheat software. :lol:
  • fritz#8093 fritz Member Posts: 67 Arc User


    I still guess it's not done with the true official commands of neverwinter, and "song" hotkeys are managed with something external (which is not really "legal" :P).

    https://forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/comment/13184841/#Comment_13184841

    /bind F5 "+PowerMusicNoteExec 12 $$ +PowerMusicNoteExec 14 $$ +PowerMusicNoteExec 12 $$ +PowerMusicNoteExec 12 $$ +PowerMusicNoteExec 14 $$ +PowerMusicNoteExec 12"

    Hit Tab, Hit F5 => Song is played with all the benefits and procs of manual play.

    No external programs, just ingame command line.
  • tchefi#6735 tchefi Member Posts: 307 Arc User
    edited July 8


    I still guess it's not done with the true official commands of neverwinter, and "song" hotkeys are managed with something external (which is not really "legal" :P).

    https://forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/comment/13184841/#Comment_13184841

    /bind F5 "+PowerMusicNoteExec 12 $$ +PowerMusicNoteExec 14 $$ +PowerMusicNoteExec 12 $$ +PowerMusicNoteExec 12 $$ +PowerMusicNoteExec 14 $$ +PowerMusicNoteExec 12"

    Hit Tab, Hit F5 => Song is played with all the benefits and procs of manual play.

    No external programs, just ingame command line.
    Ok, noted. It seems to be way more a by-pass/short-circuit of the gameplay than what was the target/hardtargetlock commands used in various "auto-aim" actions pre-mod 16 (most notable one was the DC exalt).

    I agree, it is trivializing the bard gameplay : you don't have to remember the musical notes, the tablatures, nor actually play them accurately.

    Neverwinter "bards" using auto-tune. Facetious modern reality when true talent is dissolved in the ocean of
    indistinguishable mediocrity.
    Post edited by tchefi#6735 on
  • rockster#6227 rockster Member Posts: 777 Arc User
    edited July 10


    I still guess it's not done with the true official commands of neverwinter, and "song" hotkeys are managed with something external (which is not really "legal" :P).

    https://forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/comment/13184841/#Comment_13184841

    /bind F5 "+PowerMusicNoteExec 12 $$ +PowerMusicNoteExec 14 $$ +PowerMusicNoteExec 12 $$ +PowerMusicNoteExec 12 $$ +PowerMusicNoteExec 14 $$ +PowerMusicNoteExec 12"

    Hit Tab, Hit F5 => Song is played with all the benefits and procs of manual play.

    No external programs, just ingame command line.
    Seeing it appears that the feats for the Bard only generally offer a bonus if you manually enter the keys but not when a player uses the provided auto-play slots, it would seem that the programmers who designed the class are placing importance on players manually entering keys and rewarding them on doing so, so they will not be happy this process can be circumvented.

    edit: but that can be patched. just enter a command which negates the buff if more than a certain amount of keys are not entered before the song is played. it may be included already if they know their stuff. anyone tested it?
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,350 Arc User



    Ok, noted. It seems to be way more a by-pass/short-circuit of the gameplay than what was the target/hardtargetlock commands used in various "auto-aim" actions pre-mod 16 (most notable one was the DC exalt).

    Ah, those were the days of having tons and tons of buffs...
    Also, nobody was banned for using the target lock Exaltation command back in the day.

    I am not sure Cryptic will ban for similar macros for songs...


    Seeing it appears that the feats for the Bard only generally offer a bonus if you manually enter the keys but not when a player uses the provided auto-play slots, it would seem that the programmers who designed the class are placing importance on players manually entering keys and rewarding them on doing so, so they will not be happy this process can be circumvented.

    Except that these macros also proc the various passives and feats as though you inputted the command through manual play.

    Note that not all the song macros work exactly as planned due to the macro type-in being too long for the chat window, but you can just use aliases to get around that problem...


    edit: but that can be patched. just enter a command which negates the buff if more than a certain amount of keys are not entered before the song is played. it may be included already if they know their stuff. anyone tested it?

    The songs already have an anti stalling measure in place: the notes will disappear after ~3 seconds if you don't finish a song.

    And the disappearing notes won't matter because the given macros literally input all the notes so quick, you'd think a player was simultaneously inputting all 7 notes instantly.

    The devs could theoretically ban players based off how fast they input the notes (ie, if the notes are registering within something like 0.0000001 seconds of each other, which is way beyond human input speed), but idk what their plans are.

    At the moment, Bard is so fundamentally broken (in both senses) that I don't see how this class is ready to be shipped in 2 weeks. Macros are probably the least of their worries when you have buffs that don't work (which were reported several weeks ago but never fixed), decimal place errors causing tanks to gain 50%^3 damage resistance, being able to stack songs when you shouldn't, and so on.

  • rockster#6227 rockster Member Posts: 777 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:



    Ok, noted. It seems to be way more a by-pass/short-circuit of the gameplay than what was the target/hardtargetlock commands used in various "auto-aim" actions pre-mod 16 (most notable one was the DC exalt).

    Ah, those were the days of having tons and tons of buffs...
    Also, nobody was banned for using the target lock Exaltation command back in the day.

    I am not sure Cryptic will ban for similar macros for songs...


    Seeing it appears that the feats for the Bard only generally offer a bonus if you manually enter the keys but not when a player uses the provided auto-play slots, it would seem that the programmers who designed the class are placing importance on players manually entering keys and rewarding them on doing so, so they will not be happy this process can be circumvented.

    Except that these macros also proc the various passives and feats as though you inputted the command through manual play.

    Note that not all the song macros work exactly as planned due to the macro type-in being too long for the chat window, but you can just use aliases to get around that problem...


    edit: but that can be patched. just enter a command which negates the buff if more than a certain amount of keys are not entered before the song is played. it may be included already if they know their stuff. anyone tested it?

    The songs already have an anti stalling measure in place: the notes will disappear after ~3 seconds if you don't finish a song.

    And the disappearing notes won't matter because the given macros literally input all the notes so quick, you'd think a player was simultaneously inputting all 7 notes instantly.

    The devs could theoretically ban players based off how fast they input the notes (ie, if the notes are registering within something like 0.0000001 seconds of each other, which is way beyond human input speed), but idk what their plans are.

    At the moment, Bard is so fundamentally broken (in both senses) that I don't see how this class is ready to be shipped in 2 weeks. Macros are probably the least of their worries when you have buffs that don't work (which were reported several weeks ago but never fixed), decimal place errors causing tanks to gain 50%^3 damage resistance, being able to stack songs when you shouldn't, and so on.
    Except that's not what I said. All they need is some kind of keylogger which is started at the same time tab is pressed to enter performance mode, and ends when the song is played. It calculates the number of key hits entered between those two points and if it doesn't add up to the right amount of keystrokes, the buff doesn't work.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,461 Arc User
    edited July 11

    rjc9000 said:



    Ok, noted. It seems to be way more a by-pass/short-circuit of the gameplay than what was the target/hardtargetlock commands used in various "auto-aim" actions pre-mod 16 (most notable one was the DC exalt).

    Ah, those were the days of having tons and tons of buffs...
    Also, nobody was banned for using the target lock Exaltation command back in the day.

    I am not sure Cryptic will ban for similar macros for songs...


    Seeing it appears that the feats for the Bard only generally offer a bonus if you manually enter the keys but not when a player uses the provided auto-play slots, it would seem that the programmers who designed the class are placing importance on players manually entering keys and rewarding them on doing so, so they will not be happy this process can be circumvented.

    Except that these macros also proc the various passives and feats as though you inputted the command through manual play.

    Note that not all the song macros work exactly as planned due to the macro type-in being too long for the chat window, but you can just use aliases to get around that problem...


    edit: but that can be patched. just enter a command which negates the buff if more than a certain amount of keys are not entered before the song is played. it may be included already if they know their stuff. anyone tested it?

    The songs already have an anti stalling measure in place: the notes will disappear after ~3 seconds if you don't finish a song.

    And the disappearing notes won't matter because the given macros literally input all the notes so quick, you'd think a player was simultaneously inputting all 7 notes instantly.

    The devs could theoretically ban players based off how fast they input the notes (ie, if the notes are registering within something like 0.0000001 seconds of each other, which is way beyond human input speed), but idk what their plans are.

    At the moment, Bard is so fundamentally broken (in both senses) that I don't see how this class is ready to be shipped in 2 weeks. Macros are probably the least of their worries when you have buffs that don't work (which were reported several weeks ago but never fixed), decimal place errors causing tanks to gain 50%^3 damage resistance, being able to stack songs when you shouldn't, and so on.
    Except that's not what I said. All they need is some kind of keylogger which is started at the same time tab is pressed to enter performance mode, and ends when the song is played. It calculates the number of key hits entered between those two points and if it doesn't add up to the right amount of keystrokes, the buff doesn't work.
    If I understand correctly, you mean a key counter, so for 6 notes song, I'll press 1 2 3 4 5 + macro key?
    I don't think it will work well, since on the legit side I can also move or press other non note keys, and on the other hand subvert the system easily.

    Lets also be honest here, today every gaming mouse / keyboard comes with a macro software that allow for input recording with delay and all that needed. My ages old Logitech G700s has all that, and I think the performance MX, and mx1000 all had that too.

    If the idea to minimize macros, the solution, imo, is random chains, but to late for that.
  • hotfrostwormhotfrostworm Member Posts: 334 Arc User
    Note: I am not teaching macro 101, if anyone finds macros objectionable, they should probably find a game where they care enough to install Punkbuster or Easy Anti-cheat.

    1. There are far too many mouse and keyboard drivers available with macro engines to ban users for using the pricey hardware. The way the anti-cheat programs work, it is up to the game publisher. If your keyboard or mouse is on their list, too bad for you.
    2. These programs scan for "known" macro programs, it is again easier to make your own from scratch not using some common AHK or AutoIt 3 script but written in compiler. The known macros get banned and the unknowns get a pass.
    3. Anti-cheat programs (both listed) can and have falsely banned users in the past, it is rare but it does happen. Hackers have attacked both of their servers and told the anti-cheat software to ban all the user playing the game. Programs are not perfect because those who wrote them are not gods.
    4. What we are discussing is the impossible removal of a subsystem in chat, that subsystem is very "meaty" and should Cryptic get the wild notion to "repair it" because... someone said, they should? Well, you must trust them implicitly, they seem capable of fixing issues correct?

    Meanwhile all of this seems rather petty, you are all on the same level of playing. If you put the line above or all the songs on a list to one key it, everyone has the option to do the same. You still cannot chain At-wills, Dailies, or Encounter powers.
    I dropped in on preview to check that out myself. The cast time is key here, if the cast time is not instant, the chain is interrupted and only one power goes off. You really do not want them to add a cast time to entering each note! Six notes with any delay added could be disastrous and should the key lag you don't get the buff. The other option to them is to raise the access level of the keybind, but then all the notes will be fixed and you will not be allowed to move them elsewhere on your keyboard.

    In the end, let's say Cryptic flawlessly removes your issue and everyone has to type in those 6 notes. The macros will win and people with macros will have the advantage over you. This means you fought and won the right for others to abuse the system. Congrats!
  • ukspawnukspawn Member Posts: 362 Arc User
    Honestly, when looking across the broad spectrum of issues in the game, this isn't remotely on the radar, nor should it be, nor does it remotely matter.
    1) It's been built into the game since it's beginnings
    2) It highly likely falls under "old code", which means it's 99.9% off the table
    3) Everything that everyone else has said.
    4) Ask yourself exactly why you want it removed?

    Usually it would be associated with an unfair gain, incase you didn't notice, there's literally no competition in this game, solo play is diminshed and you're left with co-op. No ones gaining any advantage over anyone else by using the in-game commands, whether they're bound or macro'd. The only time this would become relevant is if pvp was revived and fixed at which point it's highly likely the population will have diminshed to a point of not just not caring but even more irrelevant than it would be now.
  • rockster#6227 rockster Member Posts: 777 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    rjc9000 said:



    Ok, noted. It seems to be way more a by-pass/short-circuit of the gameplay than what was the target/hardtargetlock commands used in various "auto-aim" actions pre-mod 16 (most notable one was the DC exalt).

    Ah, those were the days of having tons and tons of buffs...
    Also, nobody was banned for using the target lock Exaltation command back in the day.

    I am not sure Cryptic will ban for similar macros for songs...


    Seeing it appears that the feats for the Bard only generally offer a bonus if you manually enter the keys but not when a player uses the provided auto-play slots, it would seem that the programmers who designed the class are placing importance on players manually entering keys and rewarding them on doing so, so they will not be happy this process can be circumvented.

    Except that these macros also proc the various passives and feats as though you inputted the command through manual play.

    Note that not all the song macros work exactly as planned due to the macro type-in being too long for the chat window, but you can just use aliases to get around that problem...


    edit: but that can be patched. just enter a command which negates the buff if more than a certain amount of keys are not entered before the song is played. it may be included already if they know their stuff. anyone tested it?

    The songs already have an anti stalling measure in place: the notes will disappear after ~3 seconds if you don't finish a song.

    And the disappearing notes won't matter because the given macros literally input all the notes so quick, you'd think a player was simultaneously inputting all 7 notes instantly.

    The devs could theoretically ban players based off how fast they input the notes (ie, if the notes are registering within something like 0.0000001 seconds of each other, which is way beyond human input speed), but idk what their plans are.

    At the moment, Bard is so fundamentally broken (in both senses) that I don't see how this class is ready to be shipped in 2 weeks. Macros are probably the least of their worries when you have buffs that don't work (which were reported several weeks ago but never fixed), decimal place errors causing tanks to gain 50%^3 damage resistance, being able to stack songs when you shouldn't, and so on.
    Except that's not what I said. All they need is some kind of keylogger which is started at the same time tab is pressed to enter performance mode, and ends when the song is played. It calculates the number of key hits entered between those two points and if it doesn't add up to the right amount of keystrokes, the buff doesn't work.
    If I understand correctly, you mean a key counter, so for 6 notes song, I'll press 1 2 3 4 5 + macro key?
    I don't think it will work well, since on the legit side I can also move or press other non note keys, and on the other hand subvert the system easily.

    Lets also be honest here, today every gaming mouse / keyboard comes with a macro software that allow for input recording with delay and all that needed. My ages old Logitech G700s has all that, and I think the performance MX, and mx1000 all had that too.

    If the idea to minimize macros, the solution, imo, is random chains, but to late for that.
    All I'm saying is that because the people who designed the class obviously want to reward people with a buff (on multiple fronts) for manually entering the song numbers, they will not be happy that it's being circumvented and reduced to the same status as the auto-slot(s). Not what is intended. They could also code it so that also included were the only those keys involved in a checklist attached to the keylogger so it didn't trigger the buff for using any non-song keys in the total amount of keys pressed. I have no intention or desire to play the bard and have no investment either way in whether people use macros or not, only I'm saying what the devs intend and what they want and what they will think of the idea of not entering them manually.
  • blargskullblargskull Member Posts: 455 Arc User
    @ukspawn thanks you made it where I didn't even need to post a comment!

    oh nuts, I just posted a comment. :lol:

    Just killing time...
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,206 Arc User
    My keys like being in bondage, thank you.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • tchefi#6735 tchefi Member Posts: 307 Arc User
    edited July 12

    You really do not want them to add a cast time to entering each note!

    Notes of music aren't only defined by their pitch/frequency.
    Let's introduce duration and rythm rather than cast time :P.
    Let the song be more or less powerful depending on how well you are close to the original music score.
    And ban the players who are too often perfect in their song during fights.
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