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Tanks and Healers - Under Pressure too Much?

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  • thany#4351 thany Member Posts: 258 Arc User
    edited March 2021



    I.e. yesterday I solo tanked LOMM worm as healer. No tank needed. Only defence Green slime 7,50%. I tanked demogorgon as Healer. Tiamat no Tank needed. CODG tank needed? Except CR I do not know a REDQ/RTQ in need of a tank. Maybe TONG, did not test yet without a tank. TIC is possible without tank, but DPS need to be skilled.

    The game is not only VOS or Zariel.

    Wow you tanked worm in lomm as a healer. So who healed you ? That worm do a lot of damage in lightning phase. After that phase you tanked ? Wow, even a dps can tank that. Try to tank last boss as a healer. Tanked demo as a healer ? Can you make a video on that :D. Tiamat is much easier with tanks or you must have good dps group to clear on time. CODG, well tank is needed only at the end. Dude, you started with good comments but this ones are just terrible.
  • mushellkamushellka Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 357 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    If you have very good DPS players and the bar is not full, you can tanking OP heal by selecting the class feature, the shield allows you to protect yourself from falling stones while you heal yourself with tab.
    Theoretically, it could be done. And it doesn't require much skill to do that.
    No other healer can do it, and @drago knows it.
    I don't even comment on the rest because. . . LOL
    Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
  • gweddeoran#4924 gweddeoran Member Posts: 81 Arc User
    mushellka said:



    Mushellka no one - no one - ever demand 100% equal damage of tank and dps. What you dream and read here should not be mixed, it does not help the debate.
    I do not know where this come from. Me i.e. complain about bad TTK, low damage - DPS protective reaction is tank want to deal same amount of damage??? Who demand equal damage? Quote here please.
    At the same time me i.e. complain about the lost need for tanks in many content. A tank cannot form a group if there is no demand. Why do you think anyone would demand tweaks, that tanks are needed again, but at the same time demand same damage as DPS to make DPS not needed anymore? This is insane. More <> Equal !!!

    And your comment about - glass canon - DPS. Well. Do we play the same game? There is not that much difference between tank and DPS. I know enough DPS players push ahead like tanks - have no problems - and kill enemies like superman. In many content. Even if they get into trouble, a good skilled player can do alot with blink or soulstate. I.e. yesterday I solo tanked LOMM worm as healer. No tank needed. Only defence Green slime 7,50%. I tanked demogorgon as Healer. Tiamat no Tank needed. CODG tank needed? Except CR I do not know a REDQ/RTQ in need of a tank. Maybe TONG, did not test yet without a tank. TIC is possible without tank, but DPS need to be skilled.

    The game is not only VOS or Zariel.

    Do the same on DC/SW and come back and tell us how it was :)
    Then we'll talk. I remind you that OP heal has a shield, however, on which is he able to stand while is hit by stones in lomm
    I don't like the way you manipulate the facts.

    Ignore. He's purposely wasting this thread. It's tempting to respond, but it's a trap.
  • holikiir#8597 holikiir Member Posts: 38 Arc User
    So, we were talking about mechanics centered on healer/tank (that usually have to pay a lot more attention to other stuff already) and how we miss options for equipment that support those roles withing the game. And how it makes musch easier to play and develop as a dps, and it could make the already existing problem of lack of tanks/healers even worse.

    This is a whole community problem. We feel it even more right now that combat changes brought a wave of rage quits (we know it will pass, we've seen that before, but it's something to take into account).

    With that in mind, we should now try to be propositional, like asking for new item collections for tanks and healer DURING development and not only new stuff that might solve a problem or two for people with 40k+ TIL. Or asking that new group content bring tough mechanics (we like it tough!) that are more evenly distributed for all roles, which would make DPS gameplay more interesting too.

    Let's not waste a good thread.
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User



    I.e. yesterday I solo tanked LOMM worm as healer. No tank needed. Only defence Green slime 7,50%. I tanked demogorgon as Healer. Tiamat no Tank needed. CODG tank needed? Except CR I do not know a REDQ/RTQ in need of a tank. Maybe TONG, did not test yet without a tank. TIC is possible without tank, but DPS need to be skilled.

    The game is not only VOS or Zariel.

    Wow you tanked worm in lomm as a healer. So who healed you ? That worm do a lot of damage in lightning phase. After that phase you tanked ? Wow, even a dps can tank that. Try to tank last boss as a healer. Tanked demo as a healer ? Can you make a video on that :D. Tiamat is much easier with tanks or you must have good dps group to clear on time. CODG, well tank is needed only at the end. Dude, you started with good comments but this ones are just terrible.
    I checked again to secure from telling Hamster here. If I see you online I will write you, I will show you. Not only it is possible. I will do it totally alone. 1 Man and super easy on spot without kiting. Than you come here to forum to tell it is the truth and want apologizes.
    Ofcourse lightning phase, there is no other tanking.
    @mushellka Key is fast heal, not slow TAB heal lol. Cleric do not have fast heal?
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    Okay because of lack of damage I do not pass to phase 3 completly alone as healer. But it will be enough to show you that tank defence is negligible when you see what non tank paragons can tank. I do not even used 1 heal potion... All time 3 Adds hit me without a DPS clearing them. I do not know what is hard about that. If this is the level we discuss now balance? You can make video and load here.
  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User

    So, we were talking about mechanics centered on healer/tank (that usually have to pay a lot more attention to other stuff already) and how we miss options for equipment that support those roles withing the game. And how it makes musch easier to play and develop as a dps, and it could make the already existing problem of lack of tanks/healers even worse.

    This is a whole community problem. We feel it even more right now that combat changes brought a wave of rage quits (we know it will pass, we've seen that before, but it's something to take into account).

    With that in mind, we should now try to be propositional, like asking for new item collections for tanks and healer DURING development and not only new stuff that might solve a problem or two for people with 40k+ TIL. Or asking that new group content bring tough mechanics (we like it tough!) that are more evenly distributed for all roles, which would make DPS gameplay more interesting too.

    Let's not waste a good thread.

    Could not have say it beter myself. Bravo.
    That is the essense of the problem.
    Tank/Healers are burdened in weight distribution to fullfill a dungeon run,while also are prime targets of nerfs.
    Abandoned in gear design while also struggling to do dailies.

    What a mess :/
  • callumf#9018 callumf Member Posts: 1,585 Arc User
    Oks so keeping on topic, just tested healz on my Cleric.

    [Please someone else better than me can do a more comprehensive job]

    At 46k item level Devout Cleric my Divinity is 1000 or 1150 [depends]

    Healing Word costs 220 Divinity and heals for magnitude 450. It is a general heal which doesnt rely on the target to stand still. It works well, and so I can use it every few seconds and generally keep the party alive.

    Bastion of Health requires target players to stand still, costs 100 divinity and heals for a magnitude of 1600/number of targets in the zone, so for 5 targets = 1600/5 = heal magnitude 320, but requires some skill etc.

    Ok so thats all well and good.

    But the bit that is frustrating is if you do run out of divinity the recharge speed is uber slow, I mean like sometimes divinity regen seems to be zero speed... I will do more testing, but to me the regen speed of Divinity needs looking at or improving to make healing great again
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User

    Oks so keeping on topic, just tested healz on my Cleric.

    [Please someone else better than me can do a more comprehensive job]

    At 46k item level Devout Cleric my Divinity is 1000 or 1150 [depends]

    Healing Word costs 220 Divinity and heals for magnitude 450. It is a general heal which doesnt rely on the target to stand still. It works well, and so I can use it every few seconds and generally keep the party alive.

    Bastion of Health requires target players to stand still, costs 100 divinity and heals for a magnitude of 1600/number of targets in the zone, so for 5 targets = 1600/5 = heal magnitude 320, but requires some skill etc.

    Ok so thats all well and good.

    But the bit that is frustrating is if you do run out of divinity the recharge speed is uber slow, I mean like sometimes divinity regen seems to be zero speed... I will do more testing, but to me the regen speed of Divinity needs looking at or improving to make healing great again

    The very good healers do not overheal, you need much experience and know how much damage an enemy will deal and kill/or not kill the friendly target. To speak with Wilbur speech, it is doable. On top of that a healer need a party not all run like chickens in every direction, they need work as a team. If this is the case nearly 0 problem. But, a discussion I like, the TTK of healer sucks aswell. Every healer is forced to route DPS in solo play. -> No healers arrive at BHE -> bigger stress/costs for tanks. The healing feels clunky. If your group bulks at a nearly death tank and you need to single target: good luck. It is like a dying tank because of a slow healer = A dying tank because DPS only care about DPS and healer cannot target. That could be better. What I like is the design of soulweaver. He is very active healer, while being active he heals aswell. Very nice design.
    But all in all. Too much under pressure, because a DPS player do not have these problems. He do not suffer by faults of his party. He just give pain and (fails often) move out of red. That's all. Nowhere near from what a healer or tank has to do.
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User

    So we really are asking for balance of classes on rtq/redq or scaled content this make no sense.
    All tank/healers thinks that dps is cheap to build on endgame always was the most expensive build.
    always healer/ tanks were cheaper to build to enter dungeons, and still to this day all on chat ask for heal/tank so how is the dps can do tank job,
    And if you chose tank/heal you are supposed to do your job you will want to get better on it, when i chose to play my alt heal or tank i need to be good that is the fun way to play and not talking about rtq/redq you can go with whatever .
    Game is around dps mechanics faster the kill less mechanics you have that's why dps need to be very good you cant say dps can be whatever they need to spend millions for tomm/zariel /vos.
    New dungeon is around tank and heal but if you have low dps will be very hard so all need to be on pair, i don't know why people don't want to get better with their class and not asking for more easy job, before changes game was so easy on tank heal that player that never played heal/tank was solo tanking and solo healing tomm or duo healing zariel.

    So no problem to increase tank damage in all scaled content and give debuff in latest non scaled content. I am so happy. :)
  • callumf#9018 callumf Member Posts: 1,585 Arc User
    What Drago said, just because one player can tank Demo on a healer doesnt mean many others can.

    And to paraphrase what he said tanking [and healing] is harder than DPSing, not cheaper or more expensive. The cost is irrelevant.

    It takes a higher skill set to Pug a Demo as healer and have zero deaths, that is what I aim for as a healer. It takes a fair amount of skill and divinity management [and luck tbh].

    I am just asking for maybe a faster divinity regen speed and something for tanks, liek a change to the defence formula being discussed elsewhere.

    I enjoy a challenge, I dont want "easy mode" I enjoy the tough stuff sometimes and beating a trial when it loooks like an epic fail.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,542 Arc User
    edited March 2021

    What Drago said, just because one player can tank Demo on a healer doesnt mean many others can.

    So what that test proved? Either it proves like they said that tanks not needed, and everyone can do it, or tanks are needed and in general people can't do it. We can't have both ways.


    And to paraphrase what he said tanking [and healing] is harder than DPSing, not cheaper or more expensive. The cost is irrelevant.

    Allow me to start from the end of this part, cost is very relevant since cost reduces the need for skill. This is ofc more relevant to un-scaled content but I hope not all the discussion is about demo since then it's not relevant, and RQ roles are enforced.
    In any case, better balanced stats, higher IL, higher weapon / armor enchantments, mounts and so on, all the cost is to make it easier. Otherwise why not just go at minimal IL, and finish. Some can, most can't,

    To the first part, allow me to not just accept it as is. Yes, among 6 other DPS one performing better or worse is not an issue, so in a strong group, learning mechanics is always easier as dps. And in a strong group few deaths is not an issue. But for some weird reason, those pug groups do not looks for just dps, there is that H there.
    I wonder what is that they are looking for? Why is that so many complain and kick DPS players. How is that there are dps check failures.
    I know some players who deal double my damage, so if we proceed in this route, I welcome tank/healer players to teach me how to DPS better, since it's obviously so trivial.


    It takes a higher skill set to Pug a Demo as healer and have zero deaths, that is what I aim for as a healer. It takes a fair amount of skill and divinity management [and luck tbh].

    Again, higher skill set than what? Try carry a group of random pugs in Zariel as the only capable DPS or VoS or whatever.

    I'm not saying that one is easy, the other is rocket science, or vice versa, but lets do two things, one is be actually fair in the comparisons, damage dealer roles measured in dps, you can challenge yourself at 0 death, challenge yourself at paingiver, or carrying players who less capable. btw DPS playes who chase paingiver are frowned upon.
    And second thing, do not turn it as X vs Y, since then it becomes an argument of X vs Y and not any original premise.


    I am just asking for maybe a faster divinity regen speed and something for tanks, liek a change to the defence formula being discussed elsewhere.

    Could be, even in the original thread where the defense stuff was introduced I've suggested to compensate with high stamina, or stronger mitigation from encounters. A role should be about playing the game, timings, and decisions, resources management among them.

    But this shouldn't be the tanking of mod18-19 where you could watch TV, write in discord, argue on the forums, and just dawdle around getting hit, and healed, and repeat. Tanking was soooo interesting... Best role eva..


  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,542 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    To be clear, I'm not saying all is great in paradise. Healers tab mechanics is just bad. Tanks as mechanics can be improved. And so on.

    But one can't just say it's too hard on one had, and solo 10 people trial on another, and then "but it doesn't count, because others can't" It just doesn't work like that.

    At the end, perhaps unscaled, end-game content is what things should be mainly balanced around? Ofc as long as there is no drastic issue with getting to said end-game. - And doing dailies too slow is an issue.
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:


    1.) Only because I am able to do it, does not mean it can be done by everyone. It was easy to me, but demand this from everyone is not realistic and the game would be a tomb in a month. I play tanks for about 20 years and I am former esports gamer.

    So what is the point of that experiment? You are demonstrating what? - We should balance everything by mod7 trial? The scaling should lower players significantly? Healers should be nerfed?

    If you want to prove a point, at least demonstrate the point. Like I've wrote in another thread, perhaps I'm the noob, but I can't do end-game without tanks. Seems like the whole gaming community are esports gamers that they can do Master Zariel, ToMM, VoS etc without tanks. Though while everyone claiming that this is what happens on a daily basis I'm yet to see the video or screenshot of such things.

    Or the tanks not needed is in 5 years old (from memory) content, where no one cares, since roles are enforced by the Random Queue.
    I do not know who wrote Zariel, ToMM, VoS can be done without tank. I wrote it is the only content tank is needed.
    micky1p00 said:



    2.) I want to show bad tank balance within Wilburs thoughts. If it is doable it is okay. If a tank can do the content, no matter if slow TTK, it is okay. Tank is no DPS in his opinion. I agree 100%. There must be a difference. But why me and others are able to do tank content without a tank? DPS content cannot be done by a tank. HEAL content cannot be done by a tank. Now tanks got nerfed in damage for what reason? DPS are stronger machines than ever.

    You proved the opposite, congratulations. Or something else entirely, see my previous point.

    Also what is this "DPS content cannot be done by a tank" "Heal content cannot be done by a tank"? What exactly does that mean?
    DPS stronger than ever? - I'll flow with the notion, do you play DPS? Or this is "The neighbors grass is greener".
    Can you form an argument without comparison to any other role? Also lets not forget 2/3 of the tanks can dps.
    But the argument against it is cost right? So how much it costs to gear up effective DPS, vs effective Tank? For end-game, not some HEs.
    I showed bad balance. Non-tank paragons are able to - 98% of ingame content - perform tanky.
    micky1p00 said:



    3.) A tank is under pressure because of mechanics. Did you tank endgame dungeons/trials? Many tanks will never tank them successfull, but their DPS counterparts will do them.

    What mechanics exactly? So we talk about the same things.
    At the same hand, if everything is so easy, why so many fail the DPS checks?

    I'm not saying that NW is balanced, or extremely hard, but lets not "fake news". Invest the same amount it takes to go 'BiS' DPS and suddenly tanks have the mechanics easier.. Go half geared DPS, and you need to put the effort to pass the checks... Die once and rez sickness damage debuff makes it a wipe.
    i.e. TOMM mechanics what a tank have to deal with, while under pressure of high incoming damage. Tank and DPS have both to gear up. But DPS can get carried earlier, while it is not possible for a tank.
    micky1p00 said:



    4.) My concerns are nerfs to tanks, especially the Paladin. You do not think it is pressure to have a slow TTK? Yes I cheer everytime when I need double amount of time+++. I cheer everytime some DPS speedstars arrive and take my hardwork, kill i.e. my spawned hunt, while I cannot jump on horse fast enough due to adds from everywhere. I cannot press 'E' dead, 'E' dead. This is no pressure? We have to do hardwork plus we need more gear, while having a nightmare obtaining it. No pressure?

    Go to the other thread, and read carefully. I was the only one (at-first) who said that proper balance for paladin will be a way to reduce tankiness and gain comparable damage, for solo-content.

    Saying that solo-content can't be done can be easily disproved. Asking for the same damage as DPS is not realistic. Empty posts of "buff me buff me" are not contributing.
    Don't post things that call for people to disprove, at the same time I don't see anyone argue that solo paladin is too slow.
    zzZZZ - reading this now 1000 times, but no one in reality asked for equal damage.
    micky1p00 said:



    5.) Do you tank these days? Look into the concerns of DPS I noted down - and I play Oathkeeper last 5 days - "Taaaaaank", or "Tank?", "Tank afk?" "LOL Tank" "Tank idiot" "tank....." "noob Tanck"(sic) "tank... leave" "omg tank" // "0 heal" (I was dead, no one even care ress, because they think they are tanks) "DPS healer 0" (I still do not understand) Because the DPS push too far like a tank. Yes that is pressure. The DPS behave like tanks but they are no tanks.
    One new tank responded "WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM", I could feel his pain. :(

    I don't play with idiots, so I don't encounter any such social issues.
    Then you play only with friends, guild, alliance and no random content. May I remember that it is the random content, new players, that make this game happen? Cryptic need to make cash to run server and give us new content. If I run with these "idiots" I help the community. If core gamers and veterans isolate themselve they are of no more use. I know that very well. If I spend no more cash, ofcourse I will help new players.... and not blaming them, not telling them they are bad, need learn mechanics(yea no one want show them, because no one want to run with them), need tutorials, telling them build full-tank while they struggle at solo-content. This helps all nothing.
    micky1p00 said:



    7.) I only concerned that there is nearly no more need for tanks and they are only of little use. I can understand - if possible - to run with 4 HDPS instead of 3 HDPS and 1 tank. And giving examples and been called a liar. Nevermind. All of these guys do not even responded ingame when I want to proof what I claim.

    I don't understand what you are saying here, you want to prove that you can do 4hdsp, or that people ask for it?
    A tank want to feel useful, not only like a sandbag. And most often it's not that big deal if tank is dead, content is done too. Not Zariel, TOMM or VoS.
    micky1p00 said:



    But tanking could be easier or atleast more fair if there would be a better balance. And yes. New tanks will have problems maintain aggro AND defense capabilities they need. And often times will not get into skilled groups of players that will teach them mechanics.

    The question becomes, is it really that hard to tank, or is it an issue of a learning curve, that players just do not know how to do it correctly, and as you say, others do not teach them?
    There is no learning curve.
    60% of content is super easy to tank.
    38% of content is super easy to tank if you know easy mechanics, while under low pressure by forgivable faults.
    2% of content is super hard to tank with overwhelming mechanics, while under high pressurge by unforgivable faults.

    Where is the learning curve? Easy - BOOOM. As you said content is not balanced for old content. Tank only required because they are enforced by the system. Cool.
    New tanks get now pranked, they have fun, spend money, all fine. After 1 year they may reach real end-content, think it is fun, boom.
    Can you imagine that a new player is not building for TOMM, because he need reasonably TTK? And he never learned he will need to. Again, the learning curve is Easy - BOOOM. He will now after 1 year he will need new full-tank build and spend another year obtaining gear. After he passed that check, the chances are high that there was another rework, and he need to spend another year obtaining gear.
    You guys should remember a new player have to build a build and is not choosing a build. It takes time.

  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    To have a real learning curve tank must be always tank. What does a new tank learn now in scaled content? That he have to run behind DPS players? That he can run in DPS gear like Wilbur demonstrated? Now they do all that, Mushellka come: You build wrong, you need to be tank.
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    micky1p00 said:


    Shame I've wasted the time to read (and reply to) all your, not so short post.

    Sorry, thank you for your time. I had no more fun in the evening put in more time into the forum and needed to play something makes fun. :) Now I answered you.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    anywaaaay....

    So I see people making correct points on both sides of the debate, and yes there are issues with divinity regen and magnitudes but for Paladin players, group content is not the biggest problem - it's soloing.

    Wilbur has proven with videos that a Pally can complete solo content if they build to a full dps loadout. Mushellka liked and agreed with this but also rails against Pallys that build for dps...? Wilbur also proved that without sufficient dps the tank is in fear for their life.

    What I would like to see is someone running a sub-45k Pally with a full tank/non-dps build successfully complete minor HE's in anything from Barovia upwards. I'm of the opinion that they will get hammered and this is a completely NEW experience. Previously, tanks with no dps would take forever but would not die, now, tanks without a full dps build die very quickly in solo content. I'm speaking from experience so if anyone disagrees, please do what Wilbur did and post a video, showing stats & companions (inc runestones and active bonuses).

    Anyone? Cool.

    So if everyone agrees that a Pally needs to run full dps for 90% of the game (i.e. not group content) and the main complaint from pallys is that it is expensive to get two completely different sets of companions ranked up to decent levels (plus runestones) and when they do get there everything is doable even though their output is still lower than anyone else due to magnitudes + the lack of a 20% dps bonus (e.g. oath strike (main multi-target at will) has a magnitude of 25!) then surely it is not unreasonable - for the sake of shutting up all of us Pallys - to increase Blessed Wanderer from 5% to 20%.

    That is ALL that's needed. This Class Feature was put in by the developers to assist the only class with no DPS paragon to complete solo content. Now the stat formulas have changed, this feature needs to be adjusted to compensate.

    No change to magnitudes, no creation of a new dps paragon for the class etc etc - just make it somewhat easier for those who don't have the time or currency to build/earn two complete suites of companions just to play the class - and most Paladins will go back to their corner and shut up.

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  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,002 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    @armadeonx

    Let it be known that I 100% agree with that post. A simple boost to lone wanderer would fix tank specced justicars in solo content, and it would not even affect the different tank paragons balance.

    Edit : This buff to lone wanderer should ofc only apply in Adventure Zones. Having it available in qued content would remove the need for both healers and DPS :expressionless:
    Post edited by wilbur626 on
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  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,542 Arc User
    edited March 2021


    There is no learning curve.
    60% of content is super easy to tank.
    38% of content is super easy to tank if you know easy mechanics, while under low pressure by forgivable faults.
    2% of content is super hard to tank with overwhelming mechanics, while under high pressurge by unforgivable faults.

    Where is the learning curve? Easy - BOOOM. As you said content is not balanced for old content. Tank only required because they are enforced by the system. Cool.
    New tanks get now pranked, they have fun, spend money, all fine. After 1 year they may reach real end-content, think it is fun, boom.
    Can you imagine that a new player is not building for TOMM, because he need reasonably TTK? And he never learned he will need to. Again, the learning curve is Easy - BOOOM. He will now after 1 year he will need new full-tank build and spend another year obtaining gear. After he passed that check, the chances are high that there was another rework, and he need to spend another year obtaining gear.
    You guys should remember a new player have to build a build and is not choosing a build. It takes time.

    I'll start here, since IMO it's the most important part.

    Notice that this happens to every role. You yourself saw it, 1 'dps' can finish the same demogorgon, a healer can go to sleep, and I'm pretty sure you can finish the same demo without a healer.

    The content doesn't match the players, and the scaling attempts didn't do much. I don't want to go into the scaling good or bad, but the fact is that there is no learning curve. So players have it easy and then get slapped.
    That's a global content problem, this is the same reason that when ToMM came out, so many failed (and mainly failed the DPS check).
    Look at what happened to LoMM, there was a healing / surrounding awareness check on first boss, what happened to it? it was nerfed to the ground. Now if you don't spot that cocoon in time.. nothing happens, you revive the person and go on.

    People asked to nerf FBI, remove CodG from queue, nerf LoMM, and so on when they already a joke and nothing like they where on release.
    Any hint of not trivial content and there is uproar. So how you can have a learning curve....

    People, on the first day of VoS release, already asked to nerf it. People cried about ToMM when some finished it with 4-5 people instead of 10.

    One can say that the game needs a learning curve (I agree), or one can just say, the game is centered around the easy mode, this is a casual game. Those 98% of the content is where it is, and those that find it easy can either have that 2% or go look elsewhere (I don't like it personally, but it's a valid point).

    Bottom line, this is not a specific tank problem, this is a Neverwinter problem, and this is why players who play multiple roles know it, and those that play single, thinks "The DPS want to kill tanks".
    Is it a consolation, no, but any specific solution to a role will not fix the above, it will only kill the balance among the classes and roles. (not that there is much to kill, but still, the idea is not to make it worse).

    I'm sure we can agree that the previous iteration at m18/19 was not great. If I could fall asleep tanking ToMM, what players that actually good at tanking do? Feel useful? And was it better before it? Not really.

    But look at some of the requests, they are contradictory. Make tanks useful, and interesting to play, but tank gameplay is complex, make it easier.
    Tanks have harder time with boss -> need awareness -> instead, request: Remove CA from bosses.

    Where is the line between learning and adapting, even with a bad learning curve, and killing any skill progress at all with constant nerfs to mechanics.

    I'm sorry that I don't think that a solution is to have every boss have a tank buster mechanics that hit for lets say 5 mil, have a tank with about 20mil effective HP without pressing a button, and just stand there, press shift, take a hit, repeat.
    This is exactly the same thing as enforcing roles in queue. The tank is half asleep, doesn't care about any mechanics except the tank buster, because it all hits in the few hundred thousands (meant at dps) but must be there, for the single thing they are useful for the buster.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    @armadeonx

    Let it be known that I 100% agree with that post. A simple boost to lone wanderer would fix tank specced justicars in solo content, and it would not even affect the different tank paragons balance.

    Edit : This buff to lone wanderer should ofc only apply in Adventure Zones. Having it available in qued content would remove the need for both healers and DPS :expressionless:

    Yep, I said on the other thread that Blessed Wanderer shouldn't be active in any content that is accessed via the queue system as at the first sight of someone abusing it to solo a dungeon would lead to another nerf - back to square one. It also wouldn't be fair to other classes.
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  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,175 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    micky1p00 said:



    The content doesn't match the players, and the scaling attempts didn't do much. I don't want to go into the scaling good or bad, but the fact is that there is no learning curve. So players have it easy and then get slapped.
    That's a global content problem, this is the same reason that when ToMM came out, so many failed (and mainly failed the DPS check).
    Look at what happened to LoMM, there was a healing / surrounding awareness check on first boss, what happened to it? it was nerfed to the ground. Now if you don't spot that cocoon in time.. nothing happens, you revive the person and go on.

    People asked to nerf FBI, remove CodG from queue, nerf LoMM, and so on when they already a joke and nothing like they where on release.
    Any hint of not trivial content and there is uproar. So how you can have a learning curve....

    People, on the first day of VoS release, already asked to nerf it. People cried about ToMM when some finished it with 4-5 people instead of 10.

    One can say that the game needs a learning curve (I agree), or one can just say, the game is centered around the easy mode, this is a casual game. Those 98% of the content is where it is, and those that find it easy can either have that 2% or go look elsewhere (I don't like it personally, but it's a valid point).

    I 100% agree with you, and is not only that the game is centered around easy mode, but is that players are used to this, because we had years of easy mode, and the original idea of the game progress (skillwise and gear wise) was lost (T1, T2, end game).

    The introduction of ToMM was just like a storm in the game, lots of players were very happy (including me) to have something so rich in mechanics and teamplay, but it was a insane gap between the best players and the majority of player base. Zariel was better because people can learn the mechanics for the hard version, and still enjoy the content.

    Thats why we need to have tier levels of each dungeon, with different tier rewards, so all the players can not only enjoy each content, but get better at them and learn the mechanics with every level of difficulty.

    I hope the new scaling system can allow for something like this in the near future.
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  • thany#4351 thany Member Posts: 258 Arc User
    edited March 2021

    What Drago said, just because one player can tank Demo on a healer doesnt mean many others can.

    Main "problem" here is group vs. solo play. In group some will retake aggro from healer. Good news from demo is - first phase is hard to fail - got into bronze and run like chickens and you'll pass. Demo is content for a group. But suddenly/somehow we're talking about playing solo demo dungeon. Even DPS can tank demo that way in first phase. Hell no, for brozne you don't even need tank untill 3rd phase.
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