I wish instead of nerfing characters and their stats, they boosted them with this new system, and then increased boss difficulty to extend the length of the matches, instead of making us weaker to extend the time. That way we would be having fun, pumping out huge numbers, and still doing something very challenging and meaningful to unlock the higher rewards they are engineering.
I wish instead of nerfing characters and their stats, they boosted them with this new system, and then increased boss difficulty to extend the length of the matches, instead of making us weaker to extend the time. That way we would be having fun, pumping out huge numbers, and still doing something very challenging and meaningful to unlock the higher rewards they are engineering.
Ultimately though, isn't that exactly the same thing? They could increase everything by 10x and the numbers would be 10x as big, but it wouldn't actually be any different.
Surely a nerf is making something weaker relative to something else and a buff is making something stronger relative to something else? If player and enemy damage were reduced or increased at the same rate, it's effectively exactly the same as it was.
I can't make my own thread yet I'm so new but I'll leave my feedback here, I'm a new player, just got to 80, did a lot of research and invested a lot of money in gear so I could get started in content with my Elf Hunter "EricacirE".
On the live server in RedQ I had gotten 19 million damage at the end of the match, the undermountain was easy, I barely take damage and I evaporate everything, as I should, I spent so much effort into getting my stats the way I wanted them with a ton of critical severity and armor pen and power and everything a Ranger would want after playing 1000's of hours of other games like POE or Diablo 3 and then reading for days about the meta in Neverwinter, even specifically getting critically severity 5% from my race, and after getting everything as perfect as I could I was doing really well for a fresh 80, my aimed shot could crit for over 100k, my thorns were doing great damage and giving me CDR, my daily and this one shot combine to give me +20% damage for 5 seconds so I have this rotation I do on bosses worked out to take advantage of that 20% window...
I just went to a level 60 enemy in PTR in the Undermountain and the pack freaking killed me.... I would have probably have gone to 95% hp after fighting them before, and killed them with just my roots skill, and they killed me in PTR. I can't believe it I'm going to have to quit the game, I've never taken a harder grind wise or more expensive L in a game in my life. I really hope this isn't the final product, it's cutting my legs off so bad (and I have rank 15 enchants, I filled out my stuff as much as I could) that I would have no idea where to begin to even start to make up for the power loss on my Hunter - Ranger. I was really blown away when the level 60 gnome mob killed me. I wish I could get my money and time back, that was so much to mentally absorb in these last few weeks to get my character fine tuned enough to start rolling through the campaigns, now I'm level 80 with full gear and enchants, a legendary 980il artifact bow, and I can't kill a tiny level 60 gnome.
I love change, and I was at first really excited to hear "combat rework" but I would have liked to have been BUFFED, not nerfed down to 20% of what I was. Extremely Large "F"
Based on how I'm performing now on live at like iL 23k, you would have to boost me to iL 70k to output the same amount of damage. Its unreal how broken my character is on PTR, I won't even play the live game now, whats the point. I'm just going to keep my eye on the updates and hope this april fools joke gets reworked for not only myself but everyone, I honest to god spent over 200 dollars, so I can't imagine how a new person could play this for free now, I can't even play it with 200 dollars worth of gear just to get myself started. I only wanted to spend 100 but the game got really fun so I wanted to make sure I was setup to get through the campaigns and get the gear I wanted, now I'm suited to combat Level 30 mobs.
i feel your pain since i went on preview with my ranger warden and found i had been nerfed into the ground so i switched ALL my enchants all my runestones all my mount insignia made all my companions mythic (close to 100,000 tradebars) i couldnt even manage to cap 3 stats to 90% (which considering power was already at 90% and way over cap at loggin) since then i have only logged on to collect my keys and maybe join friends if they doing something interesting come these changes going live if they stay even close to how they are now i will give eso a try or head back to good old ddo
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
edited December 2020
@drago#9606, if i read @mangodajango#7253's post correctly, their suggestion is to buff characters and buff bosses, so that normal farming/questing remains fairly and comparatively simple and easy. I think it's a pretty good suggestion too, as i would definitely like to see some improvements in how characters are supposed to be killing simple NPCs in even low level zones.
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
I can't agree on this. I have almost exactly the same amount of HP on live and preview. I just lost around 50k and thats because I have switched Stalwart and a HP companion for some +% in defense and deflect.
Live: 1.150.000 HP - 35k ilvl Preview: 1.100.000 HP - 48k ilvl
Is that before or after you upgraded your companions?
Based upon the information above, it seems you're stating that you are only missing 50k HP, and that 50k HP is directly attributed to you changing Stalwart for some other boon.
However, what you have not mentioned is that Stalwart was nerfed from providing 60k HP down to 18k at Mythic quality with 100% Mount Bolster.
As I went from 37.4k IL on Live to 47.5k IL on Preview, and that was AFTER upgrading my companions to Mythic to obtain the 100% Companion Bolster, I assume your results were only achieved AFTER you upgraded your companions to Mythic and obtained the 100% Companion Bolster. Do you think that has a bit to do with your end resulting HP? It certainly seems like your end Preview IL is higher than what it should be if your Preview character was identical to your Live character. As IL directly affects HP now, if you increased your IL by using items on Preview which you don't have access to on Live, then it's likely this is why you have not noticed much of a difference in your HP. Perhaps you could try logging on to Preview with an exact copy of your Live character and then check the difference in HP in order to provide yourself with a more accurate idea of the difference in HP between what your character currently has, and what it will have after the changes go live?
That is a huge part of the new system. A char can't max out every possible stat anymore. Now you have to focus on 2, maybe 3 stats that are the core of your build. For a tank it will probably be Defense, Deflect and Crit Avoidance, basically the same as before. Only the sources are different.
Try out some stuff on preview, I promise you can max out Defense at 90% and the other stats like Deflect, Crit Avoidance at around 60% with >1mio HP buffed. If you run some content you will notice you are very very tanky.
So, what you're saying is that, while I have almost obtained the highest IL possible in the game on Live (i'm only something like <200 IL short of maximum), and I have worked hard to enjoy the benefits of being able to cap almost every stat except for Awareness, I should be happy that I am now only able to cap one stat, and get 2/3 of the way to the cap on two other stats? What is worse, is that it will never be possible for me to enjoy the benefits of obtaining all stats at cap, as the higher the IL, the higher the cap, yet apparently, this isn't a problem i should be worried about?
Noworries stated "we didn’t want players to lose a bunch of stats and be worse off than before the change" - When i no longer have all offensive stats at maximum cap, and all defensive stats (except for Awareness) at maximum cap, and i have lost HP, then it's pretty clear to me that I have 'lost a bunch of stats' and that i am 'worse off than before the change', especially as now it takes me 7 minutes to kill one NPC which used to take me less than 30 seconds.
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
For tanks especially, the loss of HP in this new system can make a significant amount of difference.
While some may argue that the 'increase in mitigation provided by the potential increase in damage reduction provided by defense' and the 'reduction in damage by NPCs due to the removal of Armor Penetration' balances the nerf to HP out, I do not believe this to be the case.
Most full tanks will generally use features and bonuses which depend upon their maximum HP. For example, x% HP healing from mount insignia bonuses, gear which provides temporary HP or equivalent based upon maximum HP, and items such as Tanner's rings/Mane of the Manticore, Chitters's Fangs, Greater Everfrost set etc.
So, when I experience a nerf of 300k HP, which is 30% of my total HP, that's a reduction of 150k damage after i use a Daily when using Tanner's, it's a nerf of 15k damage when i'm wearing Chitters's Fangs, it's a 45k damage nerf to all damage deflected when using the Greater Everfrost set, and it's an average 3k HP per second nerf from mount 'each' insignia bonus.
What is even worse, is that now the developers have come out with bosses that permanently deal max Combat Advantage damage too! So, that increase in damage mitigation from Defense which people have been touting as being 'worth' the nerf to HP, has now just been 'mitigated' itself - by the increased damage from bosses due to Combat Advantage.
So, call me stupid if you want, yet i'd rather have Defense capped at 50%, and retain my HP and not have bosses dealing Combat Advantage damage.
For tanks especially, the loss of HP in this new system can make a significant amount of difference.
While some may argue that the 'increase in mitigation provided by the potential increase in damage reduction provided by defense' and the 'reduction in damage by NPCs due to the removal of Armor Penetration' balances the nerf to HP out, I do not believe this to be the case.
Most full tanks will generally use features and bonuses which depend upon their maximum HP. For example, x% HP healing from mount insignia bonuses, gear which provides temporary HP or equivalent based upon maximum HP, and items such as Tanner's rings/Mane of the Manticore, Chitters's Fangs, Greater Everfrost set etc.
So, when I experience a nerf of 300k HP, which is 30% of my total HP, that's a reduction of 150k damage after i use a Daily when using Tanner's, it's a nerf of 15k damage when i'm wearing Chitters's Fangs, it's a 45k damage nerf to all damage deflected when using the Greater Everfrost set, and it's an average 3k HP per second nerf from mount 'each' insignia bonus.
What is even worse, is that now the developers have come out with bosses that permanently deal max Combat Advantage damage too! So, that increase in damage mitigation from Defense which people have been touting as being 'worth' the nerf to HP, has now just been 'mitigated' itself - by the increased damage from bosses due to Combat Advantage.
So, call me stupid if you want, yet i'd rather have Defense capped at 50%, and retain my HP and not have bosses dealing Combat Advantage damage.
From my limited testing in MotH and Lostmauth, bosses are the least dangerous things in there. Trash mobs in, at least those 2 instances, are insanely aggressive in getting CA on you, to the point that moving to prevent it does nothing, as they simply run with you and maintain CA the entire time, all while hitting you. In Lostmauth especially, the mobs deal quadruple or more damage than the actual dragon, with several instances of them just outright yeeting me with zero reaction time, WHILE I WAS MOVING. And that's BEFORE the dagger dragon guys transform from the scroll, where they start dealing 350k+ damage per hit. The twin scorpions were actually slightly easier to deal with than some of the plain trash groups.
If they give bosses that level of oppressive CA damage as the default, instances will be the most miserable experiences in the world, and undergeared tanks will just get beat to death in relatively fast slow motion and cause tons of wipes.
@drago#9606, if i read @mangodajango#7253's post correctly, their suggestion is to buff characters and buff bosses, so that normal farming/questing remains fairly and comparatively simple and easy. I think it's a pretty good suggestion too, as i would definitely like to see some improvements in how characters are supposed to be killing simple NPCs in even low level zones.
Yeah, I mean that's how it works in games that have been successfully at capturing people's attentions for long periods of time. I have so many countless over 9k hours into Diablo 3 and being a new player, this game really reminds me of it, I even got the skull and horns appearance item and some golden pants and dyed the skull gold, with bits of red everywhere, and some red aura im not sure from where. Anyways it even looks like how I had my top 16 in the world for damage Demon Hunter.
This Ranger Hunter reminds me a lot of my beloved Demon Hunter I spent so much time on to become #16 damage in the world at the time, and I was able to get my new level 80 dealing amazing amounts of damage for a new level 80, but still level 60 mobs pushed back a bit, even though one of my roots charges will kill any of them, but the live version seems so appropriate now.
I will say that I like the direction of this new framework, but man did they fk up the approach. Buff us, Boost us, and unlock difficulties we couldn't dream of before, then we can feel HAMSTER seeing our characters perform after working so hard on them, and still have a challenge where a higher reward feels appropriate, after this action packed amazing battle. The way my Hunter feels on PTR right now like I said in my comment a page or so before this is completely denatured and broken, I'm doing 20% of the damage I can do on live and I refuse to even play live now because honestly the game barely inspired me enough to want to grind through the campaigns in the first place, now I'm just like fk off, a level 60 mob will be able to kill me? I'm the beginning of a god on live right now and I was so excited and proud at the effort of reading, experience I came with, watching videos, and investing a lot of money on engineering the best build I could for a fresh level 80 and it paid off, so this really HAMSTER sucks man,
I can't even look at the Icon rofl, QQ, ggwp Cryptic, I hope you take our suggestions because I love this game man.
I'm too afraid to even edit my typos in that TL:DR but very true mountain of words because this forum is so touchy it was deleting my comments after edits the other day, but really I hope people or at least someone important keeps these ideas alive because this PTR feels like a nightmare, a very expensive nightmare that is going to handicap new players. I'm glad I got to try the game before these changes went live, not so glad I spent over 200 USD to get thunderstruck by this patch which I hope changes before it comes out to model something like I wrote above ^
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
After reading many posts by people, including @noworries#8859, claiming that the new proposed system actually leaves us players 'better off', I thought i'd take the time and get some hard data to actually see whether the significant nerfs i observed while testing were actually supported by data.
Imagine my surprise when the data came back that, yes, the changes do leave us significantly worse off than we currently are on Live...
So, for all of those who want to try and argue that the changes are an improvement, here's some hard data for you to chew on while you live in your fantasy world...
For the testing, I conducted my tests on my main tank against the Elite NPCs in the Scab section of the Avernus Wastes to determine whether there was a difference in base survivability between a character on Live versus Preview, and if so, how much. In each of these tests i intentionally did not use any Powers/effects/abilities to ensure that base general survivability could be reasonably tested and easily replicated.
For each test, i recorded a video to provide a direct visual indication of any differences.
I conducted one test on Live, then two on the Preview server, with one of the Preview server tests featuring the exact same character as on Live with no changes, and the second Preview server test with upgrades and improvements to companions, insignia, enchantments, runestones and companion gear in order to better meet main defensive stat caps.
As is obvious in the videos, base general survivability has significantly been nerfed for tanks. This is not even including the major nerf to a tank's Shift and Tab mechanic.
As for the ACT data, let's just say that at first glance it indicates a minimum 8.9% nerf in base general survivability, which doesn't really factor in the nerf to Hit Points, and does not, in any way, factor in the major nerf to the Shift and Tab mechanics - and this 8.9% nerf is only AFTER upgrading companions and other stuff...
So @noworries#8859, care to chime here and explain exactly how your statement that "we didn’t want players to lose a bunch of stats and be worse off than before the change" is actually true?
I haven’t been on preview in over 2 years. Just came back to the game actually, but if what I’m reading is true then there is no point to get back into the game again. I thought the mod 16 changes were bad enough but looks like this will definitely cause a dip in the player base.
Founder of Knights of Ra guild in Neverwinter PS4. Founder of The Arashikage Clan in Defiance, formally of PlayStation Home.
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
"There has been a lot of talk about Celestial Vs Lionheart weapon sets.
On the stream I mentioned that for Celestial I removed the lockout timer so that if a player is constantly engaged they can keep the celestial effect up continuously. There were still complaints that Lionheart would still be too powerful compared to Celestial in that regard. So another change that will be going in is that Lionheart will be reduced to 7.5% maximums to bring the two sets better in line."
It purely seems that the development team is experiencing difficulty understanding how to balance the game, and simply react by jumping on the loudest and most prolific complaints and implementing them.
While i can appreciate and understand that the development team may simply be attempting to respond to player concerns and needs, there, surely, must be a far better method for implementing changes than simply reacting to the few screaming complaints of a minority.
With the initial statement that 'no player will be worse off with these changes', how is it possible that players who have spent so much time and resources earning rewards, such as the Lionheart set, are now so disadvantaged, that even using an old set like Masterwork 3, which you can purchase off of the Auction House, may likely end up proving 'better'?
The saddest thing, by far, is that, simply put, the more people who complain and ask for a 'nerf', the worse off it's going to be for everyone. The community was, arguably, better off not contributing any feedback to these proposed changes and then everyone may likely have been far better off than they are now.
@damnacious Don't worry, because of how item level negatively impacts tanks as we increase our item level we'll be blessed with another full rework in about a year after wasting so many supplies re-gearing up.
Tanks atm improving 1k item level loses around 250 combined ratings in each stat for a total of 1.2k hp. Its not sustainable and eventually the dps and healers will have a lot higher item level, more hp (not defensive stats, but still) and we have to wait for them to roll out half decent gear options for tanks, as we have nothing right now that improves our other contributions anywhere near what either dps or healers get.
A lot of tanks are going back to earthen set, which we all know a nerf for it is in the works at this point.
Forte decreases as you improve your item level so some stats will be hit twice as hard as you improve item level.
We've asked for changes to the 4x power boons and have asked for increase of the values of boons as right now, they give same stat total as companions, this whole combat change was suppose to be about moving away from companions being the bulk of our stats and yet it still is how we get a good 37.5% contributions, more if using raptors, along with the ability for 7.5% that if everyone agrees to use debuff you're adding another 187.5% per player worth of stats in a dungeon!
I don't think a single player asked for lionheart to be nerfed and yet they did so anyway when they had so many suggestions on how to improve celestial set. I sincerely want trials to no longer drop weapon sets because clearly devs don't know how to handle balancing for something that takes so long for people to get, then eventually have to nerf it since they can't figure out how to make a new set comparable. If the newest sets always came from 5 man dungeons it'd be less of an issue when it comes to changing the ability in the future.
Fighter's daily has lost it's damage reduction because it was called as unbalanced then given to pallys, these devs are doing things randomly without any thought or reason behind it.
Barb tanks have been told since mod 18 they are getting a rework to make their class more inline with other tanks; still waiting. There are many suggestions, here too.
@damnacious Don't worry, because of how item level negatively impacts tanks as we increase our item level we'll be blessed with another full rework in about a year after wasting so many supplies re-gearing up.
Tanks atm improving 1k item level loses around 250 combined ratings in each stat for a total of 1.2k hp. Its not sustainable and eventually the dps and healers will have a lot higher item level, more hp (not defensive stats, but still) and we have to wait for them to roll out half decent gear options for tanks, as we have nothing right now that improves our other contributions anywhere near what either dps or healers get.
You are forgetting the stats gained from the +1k ilvl gear. By increasing itemlevel, the stats you want to increase will increase.
Can you please show how you calculate the 1200 HP loss from 1000 itemlevel gain ? Or do you mean that tanks would gain 1.2k Hp while losing 250 combined rating ?
Im not able to find any gear that increases my itemlevel by 1000 and at the same time reduces/increases my HP by 1200.
The correct calculation for a tank in this example will be : 1000 (Itemlevel) x 10 (HP for Itemlevel increase) x 120% (Tank HP bonus) = 12000 HP increase. This does not include CON HP bonus.
Mistyped the hp as it was right after I woke up, sorry about that.
Doesn't change anything as we don't have ways of increasing forte pass a certain point, so we're always losing out on 3 stats' other contributions, 2 of which matter to tanks.
Collars giving a maximum 2500 combined rating out of the 5k possible IL (between all defensive stats, 14,375 loss of ratings, for 60k total hp before con), which again also effects forte, heavily negatively effects tanks.
Can't remember utility boon in guilds combined ratings, but for 12k hp highly doubt it has enough value alone.
Currently highest end item level shirts have only offensive stats, meaning we can't spec it into defensive stats without dropping to a lower item level shirt.
For some pieces of gear to have double defensive stats to offset the drop in defensive ratings, we have to use gear that isn't useful to us bonus-wise, or a lot lower end.
Using Earthen weapons allows ratings to be capped easier, allows forte to not drop as much and gives a better bonus.
For the most part, as long as a dps or healer increases their IL they will see an increase in damage, regardless of if ratings fall.
Gearing a tank and getting the stats for ALL the master trials and the latest dungeon is no issue at all for any of the tanks. You dont have to cap any of the defensive stats, and you dont have to stack extreme amounts of HP.
I think that the biggest issue is one you are already aware off, the fact that tanks dont need any of the gear from any content after M16 (companion gear from expeditions). This means there are 4 (soon to be 5) whole modules that have no items/sets that are even worth considering using on a tank.
Elite Whaleboy
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
@wilbur626 I think you have kind of hit on the major issue, as a whole, with these changes - progression has been made irrelevant.
This reminds me of a post in a thread a couple of years back by @autumnwitch, where they had a friend 'try out' the game before the Mod16 changes, to gain their perspective of the difference between the two mods.
In their post, @autumnwitch stated that their friend found the mod16 changes to be (if i can recall correctly), 'tedious', 'boring' and 'unrewarding'.
Unfortunately, it seems this mod is likely to produce the same effect for some players, of which a, possibly, greater proportion may be tanks due to their substantial nerfs, where players find it far more difficult, and increasingly so, to reach any sort of stage where they may have 'reached' some sort of 'pinnacle' of character development which recognises their successes and achievements in game.
With the way the proposed system operates, the only real 'need' for a tank to ever upgrade any gear would be to slightly improve their Hit Points, and improve their damage so that they can remain capable of maintaining Aggro.
From my perspective, there is a greater encouragement for tanks and some other roles to not bother increasing their IL or progressing their characters at all.
When i consider the new Sharandar content and the items released in it, none of those items, even remotely, appear to be worth the time or effort to bother acquiring as they will not be an improvement, and will likely end up resulting in a less effective tank.
While some may argue that these changes create a 'more balanced system and game environment', or a 'simpler game environment', from my perspective, i have never, in all the many years that i have been playing, ever felt that the game was so 'unrewarding', 'boring' and 'tedious' to the point where it's not worth bothering to even play - except for now with these changes.
Why would i want to play a game where my character has been nerfed to approximately 1/3 of it's prior capability, especially when that character had, pretty much, worked hard to achieve a level of capability a significant proportion of other players may never be capable of?
Why would i even begin to want to attempt progression in a system where that system literally results in it being increasingly more difficult, to the point where it becomes impossible, to progress my character to a level of success, achievement and capability that is at the pinnacle of the game's system?
Why would i want to bother participating in a system that is so unbalanced, where my main class and role, which i have played almost exclusively since before the game was first publicly launched, is nerfed to an arguable 1/3 of it's former capability, with no real possibility of ever reaching the maximum 'cap' on more than one of my main stats without the use of temporary buffs and features, as opposed to a DPS or Healer role, who (apparently), can reach that cap on 3-4 stats?
While i love the new facility to, once again, utilise old, familiar and wonderful items, particularly for their effect, it's sad that it's not so much 'use due to choice', as opposed to 'use due to no better, or other real, choice', and this is made worse by the realisation and knowledge that the new system firmly cements those other mods as the 'pinnacle' of the game's greatness and achievement, by recognising that, still 10-14 mods later, there is still nothing else better, and likely will not be in the foreseeable future.
In the years which i have been playing this game, i have seen the developers remove large swathes of content, i have seen numerous changes and 'overhauls' to the system, and while some of these aspects of the game's evolution may not have been 'ideal' or the 'best', I certainly never expected or anticipated that the game would get to a point where it penalises players for progressing their characters.
I've often been termed a 'fool' for continuing to play this game with the various changes over the years, yet now i actually feel like one.
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
@damnacious Don't worry, because of how item level negatively impacts tanks as we increase our item level we'll be blessed with another full rework in about a year after wasting so many supplies re-gearing up. ...
Mistyped the hp as it was right after I woke up, sorry about that. ...
I couldn't agree with you more!
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
Still, out of all of this, what completely infuriates me is the lie that 'players would not be worse off with these changes'.
Too many people recognise and realise that this is a lie, yet appear to be content doing nothing to hold @noworries#8859 to account for it.
"All it takes for evil to triumph is for one good person to do nothing."
For all those not taking action to hold the developers, and the game, to their promise that 'no player would be worse off with these changes', you're simply condoning, encouraging and supporting the development team and the game to lie to you again in the future.
As you well know, I 100% disagree on your opinion of the changes to the combat system, so I choose not to discuss that any further.
We do however agree on the fact that there is no real rewards in form of shiny new (“BIS”) equipment that will give the support players any reason to run any on the new dungeons/trials.
The introduction of the new combat system would be a great opportunity to introduce new gear specially designed for healers/tanks, to avoid them feeling left out yet again. This could even be solved by reusing some of the old equip bonuses that really shine in the new system (ex. Manticore Mane, Everfrost set, Dusk/Drowcraft set, Protector set, Dragonflight gear and so on), just to give the support classes a “carrot” to strive for.
I do understand that the majority of the player base are DPS players, and that their feedback on itemization outnumbers the feedback from support players, but it would be wise to give players a reason to gear up for the new content other than a feeling of accomplishment for actual completion ( @noworries#8859@cwhitesidedev#9752 )
Still, out of all of this, what completely infuriates me is the lie that 'players would not be worse off with these changes'.
Too many people recognise and realise that this is a lie, yet appear to be content doing nothing to hold @noworries#8859 to account for it.
"All it takes for evil to triumph is for one good person to do nothing."
For all those not taking action to hold the developers, and the game, to their promise that 'no player would be worse off with these changes', you're simply condoning, encouraging and supporting the development team and the game to lie to you again in the future.
I gave up sending tickets years ago. They've left companions broken for years with no fix or even addressing. But if they have a female barb style issue...thats important. If you send a ticket in game, it doesnt even exist, write down the ticket number they give you in game when it says it's filed. Then come here and look it up...never even showed up. Post tickets on here, might get a response 1 out of 10, and a fix even less. Play the game to have fun. If you expect development to care, probably not going to be happy.
Comments
Surely a nerf is making something weaker relative to something else and a buff is making something stronger relative to something else? If player and enemy damage were reduced or increased at the same rate, it's effectively exactly the same as it was.
since then i have only logged on to collect my keys and maybe join friends if they doing something interesting
come these changes going live if they stay even close to how they are now i will give eso a try or head back to good old ddo
Based upon the information above, it seems you're stating that you are only missing 50k HP, and that 50k HP is directly attributed to you changing Stalwart for some other boon.
However, what you have not mentioned is that Stalwart was nerfed from providing 60k HP down to 18k at Mythic quality with 100% Mount Bolster.
As I went from 37.4k IL on Live to 47.5k IL on Preview, and that was AFTER upgrading my companions to Mythic to obtain the 100% Companion Bolster, I assume your results were only achieved AFTER you upgraded your companions to Mythic and obtained the 100% Companion Bolster. Do you think that has a bit to do with your end resulting HP? It certainly seems like your end Preview IL is higher than what it should be if your Preview character was identical to your Live character. As IL directly affects HP now, if you increased your IL by using items on Preview which you don't have access to on Live, then it's likely this is why you have not noticed much of a difference in your HP. Perhaps you could try logging on to Preview with an exact copy of your Live character and then check the difference in HP in order to provide yourself with a more accurate idea of the difference in HP between what your character currently has, and what it will have after the changes go live?
So, what you're saying is that, while I have almost obtained the highest IL possible in the game on Live (i'm only something like <200 IL short of maximum), and I have worked hard to enjoy the benefits of being able to cap almost every stat except for Awareness, I should be happy that I am now only able to cap one stat, and get 2/3 of the way to the cap on two other stats? What is worse, is that it will never be possible for me to enjoy the benefits of obtaining all stats at cap, as the higher the IL, the higher the cap, yet apparently, this isn't a problem i should be worried about?
Noworries stated "we didn’t want players to lose a bunch of stats and be worse off than before the change" - When i no longer have all offensive stats at maximum cap, and all defensive stats (except for Awareness) at maximum cap, and i have lost HP, then it's pretty clear to me that I have 'lost a bunch of stats' and that i am 'worse off than before the change', especially as now it takes me 7 minutes to kill one NPC which used to take me less than 30 seconds.
While some may argue that the 'increase in mitigation provided by the potential increase in damage reduction provided by defense' and the 'reduction in damage by NPCs due to the removal of Armor Penetration' balances the nerf to HP out, I do not believe this to be the case.
Most full tanks will generally use features and bonuses which depend upon their maximum HP. For example, x% HP healing from mount insignia bonuses, gear which provides temporary HP or equivalent based upon maximum HP, and items such as Tanner's rings/Mane of the Manticore, Chitters's Fangs, Greater Everfrost set etc.
So, when I experience a nerf of 300k HP, which is 30% of my total HP, that's a reduction of 150k damage after i use a Daily when using Tanner's, it's a nerf of 15k damage when i'm wearing Chitters's Fangs, it's a 45k damage nerf to all damage deflected when using the Greater Everfrost set, and it's an average 3k HP per second nerf from mount 'each' insignia bonus.
What is even worse, is that now the developers have come out with bosses that permanently deal max Combat Advantage damage too! So, that increase in damage mitigation from Defense which people have been touting as being 'worth' the nerf to HP, has now just been 'mitigated' itself - by the increased damage from bosses due to Combat Advantage.
So, call me stupid if you want, yet i'd rather have Defense capped at 50%, and retain my HP and not have bosses dealing Combat Advantage damage.
From my limited testing in MotH and Lostmauth, bosses are the least dangerous things in there. Trash mobs in, at least those 2 instances, are insanely aggressive in getting CA on you, to the point that moving to prevent it does nothing, as they simply run with you and maintain CA the entire time, all while hitting you. In Lostmauth especially, the mobs deal quadruple or more damage than the actual dragon, with several instances of them just outright yeeting me with zero reaction time, WHILE I WAS MOVING. And that's BEFORE the dagger dragon guys transform from the scroll, where they start dealing 350k+ damage per hit. The twin scorpions were actually slightly easier to deal with than some of the plain trash groups.
If they give bosses that level of oppressive CA damage as the default, instances will be the most miserable experiences in the world, and undergeared tanks will just get beat to death in relatively fast slow motion and cause tons of wipes.
This Ranger Hunter reminds me a lot of my beloved Demon Hunter I spent so much time on to become #16 damage in the world at the time, and I was able to get my new level 80 dealing amazing amounts of damage for a new level 80, but still level 60 mobs pushed back a bit, even though one of my roots charges will kill any of them, but the live version seems so appropriate now.
I will say that I like the direction of this new framework, but man did they fk up the approach. Buff us, Boost us, and unlock difficulties we couldn't dream of before, then we can feel HAMSTER seeing our characters perform after working so hard on them, and still have a challenge where a higher reward feels appropriate, after this action packed amazing battle. The way my Hunter feels on PTR right now like I said in my comment a page or so before this is completely denatured and broken, I'm doing 20% of the damage I can do on live and I refuse to even play live now because honestly the game barely inspired me enough to want to grind through the campaigns in the first place, now I'm just like fk off, a level 60 mob will be able to kill me? I'm the beginning of a god on live right now and I was so excited and proud at the effort of reading, experience I came with, watching videos, and investing a lot of money on engineering the best build I could for a fresh level 80 and it paid off, so this really HAMSTER sucks man,
I can't even look at the Icon rofl, QQ, ggwp Cryptic, I hope you take our suggestions because I love this game man.
Imagine my surprise when the data came back that, yes, the changes do leave us significantly worse off than we currently are on Live...
So, for all of those who want to try and argue that the changes are an improvement, here's some hard data for you to chew on while you live in your fantasy world...
For the testing, I conducted my tests on my main tank against the Elite NPCs in the Scab section of the Avernus Wastes to determine whether there was a difference in base survivability between a character on Live versus Preview, and if so, how much. In each of these tests i intentionally did not use any Powers/effects/abilities to ensure that base general survivability could be reasonably tested and easily replicated.
For each test, i recorded a video to provide a direct visual indication of any differences.
I conducted one test on Live, then two on the Preview server, with one of the Preview server tests featuring the exact same character as on Live with no changes, and the second Preview server test with upgrades and improvements to companions, insignia, enchantments, runestones and companion gear in order to better meet main defensive stat caps.
Here's the ACT data from the first test on Live, with a link to the video of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWW5UWrXxic
Here's the ACT data from the first test on Preview with the exact same character copied from Live, with a video of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6JrHVljnUk
Here's the ACT data from the second test on Preview with an 'upgraded' character, with a video of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK4xOJccNw0
As is obvious in the videos, base general survivability has significantly been nerfed for tanks. This is not even including the major nerf to a tank's Shift and Tab mechanic.
As for the ACT data, let's just say that at first glance it indicates a minimum 8.9% nerf in base general survivability, which doesn't really factor in the nerf to Hit Points, and does not, in any way, factor in the major nerf to the Shift and Tab mechanics - and this 8.9% nerf is only AFTER upgrading companions and other stuff...
So @noworries#8859, care to chime here and explain exactly how your statement that "we didn’t want players to lose a bunch of stats and be worse off than before the change" is actually true?
From @noworries#8859:
"There has been a lot of talk about Celestial Vs Lionheart weapon sets.
On the stream I mentioned that for Celestial I removed the lockout timer so that if a player is constantly engaged they can keep the celestial effect up continuously. There were still complaints that Lionheart would still be too powerful compared to Celestial in that regard. So another change that will be going in is that Lionheart will be reduced to 7.5% maximums to bring the two sets better in line."
It purely seems that the development team is experiencing difficulty understanding how to balance the game, and simply react by jumping on the loudest and most prolific complaints and implementing them.
While i can appreciate and understand that the development team may simply be attempting to respond to player concerns and needs, there, surely, must be a far better method for implementing changes than simply reacting to the few screaming complaints of a minority.
With the initial statement that 'no player will be worse off with these changes', how is it possible that players who have spent so much time and resources earning rewards, such as the Lionheart set, are now so disadvantaged, that even using an old set like Masterwork 3, which you can purchase off of the Auction House, may likely end up proving 'better'?
The saddest thing, by far, is that, simply put, the more people who complain and ask for a 'nerf', the worse off it's going to be for everyone. The community was, arguably, better off not contributing any feedback to these proposed changes and then everyone may likely have been far better off than they are now.
Tanks atm improving 1k item level loses around 250 combined ratings in each stat for a total of 1.2k hp. Its not sustainable and eventually the dps and healers will have a lot higher item level, more hp (not defensive stats, but still) and we have to wait for them to roll out half decent gear options for tanks, as we have nothing right now that improves our other contributions anywhere near what either dps or healers get.
A lot of tanks are going back to earthen set, which we all know a nerf for it is in the works at this point.
Forte decreases as you improve your item level so some stats will be hit twice as hard as you improve item level.
We've asked for changes to the 4x power boons and have asked for increase of the values of boons as right now, they give same stat total as companions, this whole combat change was suppose to be about moving away from companions being the bulk of our stats and yet it still is how we get a good 37.5% contributions, more if using raptors, along with the ability for 7.5% that if everyone agrees to use debuff you're adding another 187.5% per player worth of stats in a dungeon!
I don't think a single player asked for lionheart to be nerfed and yet they did so anyway when they had so many suggestions on how to improve celestial set. I sincerely want trials to no longer drop weapon sets because clearly devs don't know how to handle balancing for something that takes so long for people to get, then eventually have to nerf it since they can't figure out how to make a new set comparable. If the newest sets always came from 5 man dungeons it'd be less of an issue when it comes to changing the ability in the future.
Fighter's daily has lost it's damage reduction because it was called as unbalanced then given to pallys, these devs are doing things randomly without any thought or reason behind it.
Barb tanks have been told since mod 18 they are getting a rework to make their class more inline with other tanks; still waiting. There are many suggestions, here too.
Can you please show how you calculate the 1200 HP loss from 1000 itemlevel gain ? Or do you mean that tanks would gain 1.2k Hp while losing 250 combined rating ?
Im not able to find any gear that increases my itemlevel by 1000 and at the same time reduces/increases my HP by 1200.
The correct calculation for a tank in this example will be : 1000 (Itemlevel) x 10 (HP for Itemlevel increase) x 120% (Tank HP bonus) = 12000 HP increase. This does not include CON HP bonus.
Doesn't change anything as we don't have ways of increasing forte pass a certain point, so we're always losing out on 3 stats' other contributions, 2 of which matter to tanks.
Collars giving a maximum 2500 combined rating out of the 5k possible IL (between all defensive stats, 14,375 loss of ratings, for 60k total hp before con), which again also effects forte, heavily negatively effects tanks.
Can't remember utility boon in guilds combined ratings, but for 12k hp highly doubt it has enough value alone.
Currently highest end item level shirts have only offensive stats, meaning we can't spec it into defensive stats without dropping to a lower item level shirt.
For some pieces of gear to have double defensive stats to offset the drop in defensive ratings, we have to use gear that isn't useful to us bonus-wise, or a lot lower end.
Using Earthen weapons allows ratings to be capped easier, allows forte to not drop as much and gives a better bonus.
For the most part, as long as a dps or healer increases their IL they will see an increase in damage, regardless of if ratings fall.
In the long run, we still lose out.
Gearing a tank and getting the stats for ALL the master trials and the latest dungeon is no issue at all for any of the tanks. You dont have to cap any of the defensive stats, and you dont have to stack extreme amounts of HP.
I think that the biggest issue is one you are already aware off, the fact that tanks dont need any of the gear from any content after M16 (companion gear from expeditions). This means there are 4 (soon to be 5) whole modules that have no items/sets that are even worth considering using on a tank.
This reminds me of a post in a thread a couple of years back by @autumnwitch, where they had a friend 'try out' the game before the Mod16 changes, to gain their perspective of the difference between the two mods.
In their post, @autumnwitch stated that their friend found the mod16 changes to be (if i can recall correctly), 'tedious', 'boring' and 'unrewarding'.
Unfortunately, it seems this mod is likely to produce the same effect for some players, of which a, possibly, greater proportion may be tanks due to their substantial nerfs, where players find it far more difficult, and increasingly so, to reach any sort of stage where they may have 'reached' some sort of 'pinnacle' of character development which recognises their successes and achievements in game.
With the way the proposed system operates, the only real 'need' for a tank to ever upgrade any gear would be to slightly improve their Hit Points, and improve their damage so that they can remain capable of maintaining Aggro.
From my perspective, there is a greater encouragement for tanks and some other roles to not bother increasing their IL or progressing their characters at all.
When i consider the new Sharandar content and the items released in it, none of those items, even remotely, appear to be worth the time or effort to bother acquiring as they will not be an improvement, and will likely end up resulting in a less effective tank.
While some may argue that these changes create a 'more balanced system and game environment', or a 'simpler game environment', from my perspective, i have never, in all the many years that i have been playing, ever felt that the game was so 'unrewarding', 'boring' and 'tedious' to the point where it's not worth bothering to even play - except for now with these changes.
Why would i want to play a game where my character has been nerfed to approximately 1/3 of it's prior capability, especially when that character had, pretty much, worked hard to achieve a level of capability a significant proportion of other players may never be capable of?
Why would i even begin to want to attempt progression in a system where that system literally results in it being increasingly more difficult, to the point where it becomes impossible, to progress my character to a level of success, achievement and capability that is at the pinnacle of the game's system?
Why would i want to bother participating in a system that is so unbalanced, where my main class and role, which i have played almost exclusively since before the game was first publicly launched, is nerfed to an arguable 1/3 of it's former capability, with no real possibility of ever reaching the maximum 'cap' on more than one of my main stats without the use of temporary buffs and features, as opposed to a DPS or Healer role, who (apparently), can reach that cap on 3-4 stats?
While i love the new facility to, once again, utilise old, familiar and wonderful items, particularly for their effect, it's sad that it's not so much 'use due to choice', as opposed to 'use due to no better, or other real, choice', and this is made worse by the realisation and knowledge that the new system firmly cements those other mods as the 'pinnacle' of the game's greatness and achievement, by recognising that, still 10-14 mods later, there is still nothing else better, and likely will not be in the foreseeable future.
In the years which i have been playing this game, i have seen the developers remove large swathes of content, i have seen numerous changes and 'overhauls' to the system, and while some of these aspects of the game's evolution may not have been 'ideal' or the 'best', I certainly never expected or anticipated that the game would get to a point where it penalises players for progressing their characters.
I've often been termed a 'fool' for continuing to play this game with the various changes over the years, yet now i actually feel like one.
Too many people recognise and realise that this is a lie, yet appear to be content doing nothing to hold @noworries#8859 to account for it.
"All it takes for evil to triumph is for one good person to do nothing."
For all those not taking action to hold the developers, and the game, to their promise that 'no player would be worse off with these changes', you're simply condoning, encouraging and supporting the development team and the game to lie to you again in the future.
As you well know, I 100% disagree on your opinion of the changes to the combat system, so I choose not to discuss that any further.
We do however agree on the fact that there is no real rewards in form of shiny new (“BIS”) equipment that will give the support players any reason to run any on the new dungeons/trials.
The introduction of the new combat system would be a great opportunity to introduce new gear specially designed for healers/tanks, to avoid them feeling left out yet again. This could even be solved by reusing some of the old equip bonuses that really shine in the new system (ex. Manticore Mane, Everfrost set, Dusk/Drowcraft set, Protector set, Dragonflight gear and so on), just to give the support classes a “carrot” to strive for.
I do understand that the majority of the player base are DPS players, and that their feedback on itemization outnumbers the feedback from support players, but it would be wise to give players a reason to gear up for the new content other than a feeling of accomplishment for actual completion ( @noworries#8859 @cwhitesidedev#9752 )