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rockster
Member Posts: 1,860 Arc User
When people play a genuinely and totally free game which no-one pays a cent to play it is one thing to trash everything and force everyone to start from scratch. That's bad enough.
But when people pay real-world hard-earned cash in good faith over long periods of time to upgrade, build and reach a desired result that the game promises but that now gets trashed and removed totally and they are forced to start all over again and their past purchases are now worthless in the game? That's a completely different story. That's extremely serious and could even be described as corporate malpractice.
But when people pay real-world hard-earned cash in good faith over long periods of time to upgrade, build and reach a desired result that the game promises but that now gets trashed and removed totally and they are forced to start all over again and their past purchases are now worthless in the game? That's a completely different story. That's extremely serious and could even be described as corporate malpractice.
Apparently pointing-out the bleeding obvious is a 'personal attack'.
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Imagine buying a dozen eggs, paying for them and as you leave the shop the security guard takes them out of your bag and smashes them on the floor. This latest change does seem very much out of order even compared to Mod 16.
But I shall wait and see. I stopped giving the game money some time back when I realised that the Terms of Service are literally a license to do just waht you rightly point out
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
And if they introduce Neverwinter 2.0 as intended I will leave aswell.
But now we have still M19.
Instead over on the preview stats chat they just deleted 5 out of 7 pages worth of comments under the guise offensive comments, when in actual fact they just don't want people saying they dont like the changes. Then when you post a comment asking why they feel the need to just delete all comments without addressing our concerns, they delete that too.
And even if they were all filled with offensive comments (they weren't) you would have thought that if 5 pages out of 7 were along those lines, addressing the player concerns would be the way to go, not just trying to pretend they never happened.
Truly abysmal customer services, they don't deserve any players regardless of whether they pay money or not.
They must have absolutely no confidence in their own design if they cant stand up to player scrutiny and have to just resort to deleting negative feedback.
Here we are indeed, but not much longer. this is one Whale gone for good.
And perhaps the next life lesson should be, if something makes you persistently unhappy and you doubt there are any redeeming qualities pending - walk away.
My final point being do you thing you have enough player confidence left to risk another exodus like the one that happened with mod 16?
So I paid to rent my bonding runestones [so to speak] or other items [companions, mounts etc] and their "value" at the time I rented them was good, chop the powers of those rented items and the value is now bad.
To clarify, I am more than aware its a rental, just that to keep players in the game, make that rental good value for money long term.
I've spent my fair share of $$ on this game and I know the moment it hits Zen it's not money anymore it's just 1's and 0's. However I still value what I've spent that money on and would think the powers at be would value our investment.
But this has always been how Free to Play is. you have no guarantee of anything. Just the hope the game doesn't implode and you get what "you" think is of value for your money.
It just feels like a slap in the face when we work hard on something and enjoy playing they change it (again) without even asking if 'we' as a community want it. Maybe they did? I just don't get how everything in and out of the game is dreading this and most of the previous changes how the community wanted it.
So now we sit and wait to see how things go. I can honestly say my enjoyment in the game has dropped drastically since mod 16 and every change that has happened since.. but it have left my wallet a little more full.. but I still play. just not as eager to drop money in it.
Folks keep telling me to join them on other games and I always say the same thing.. "I'm here for the long haul.. " I have no interest in starting over on another game.. but if that is what this game becomes "another game to learn" who knows.
We can voice our opinion and dislike whatever changes are coming.. doesn't mean they listen.
> Technically - you didn't buy anything. If you want to get technical about it, you are renting pixels. You are not allowed to sell anything off your account for cash. You get no physical goods. The sooner that players *realize not to spend money on this kind of ponzi scheme*, the happier off they will be.
Fixed that for you. You're welcome.
I have personally known too many people who invest a great deal of cash into online games. I don't believe one should call something "free to play" when there is an expected hidden cost. I know people including my wife who spent $50 per release of the online game "Guild Wars" which contained 3 games and 1 expansion at that price for a total cost of $200. However it did not end there, the item mall has 17 different costumes at $7 each, storage expansion at $10 each, makeover $10 each, extreme make over $10 each, mercenary hero pack $40, and more. A person could spend well over $500 on this game and while it was purchased, the company only had to sell players on the idea that it was "free to play" meaning no monthly fee.
End User License Agreement (EULA) is a software contract, where you agree to use their software, you never own the software. When the game ends you are expected to delete the software. Very few people seem to grasp this concept.
The people I personally know, are friends and family, they foolishly throw money at these games buying nothing physical at all. All of these items are just as @kreatyve said, virtual items that can and will vanish when the game ends. All things end. The difference between the people I know and the people complaining here, seem to understand this is a gamble or a risk. I never heard them complain about the games, other than QoS (quality of service) and then the only option you have is to continue or give up.
Looking at the example I gave above, she spent somewhere around $350 to $400 on that game and played for about 4 years very often. She still plays on there, just not as often, for a total of about 12 years. If I were to depreciate the cost over the first 6 years that comes to roughly $65 a year. Which is much less than anyone would pay for a subscription. If you have paid any money at all to Cryptic Studios over the 8 years, then simply divide your cost by the 8 years, and you basically paid that much a year to play this game. That is your non-refundable fee.
PSN Zen AD Exchange - Forecasting Spreadsheet
> Whenever someone tells me they bought into a game (any kind) for cash, I am reminded of the old phrase "A fool and his money are soon parted." by the poet Thomas Tusser.
>
> I have personally known too many people who invest a great deal of cash into online games. I don't believe one should call something "free to play" when there is an expected hidden cost. I know people including my wife who spent $50 per release of the online game "Guild Wars" which contained 3 games and 1 expansion at that price for a total cost of $200. However it did not end there, the item mall has 17 different costumes at $7 each, storage expansion at $10 each, makeover $10 each, extreme make over $10 each, mercenary hero pack $40, and more. A person could spend well over $500 on this game and while it was purchased, the company only had to sell players on the idea that it was "free to play" meaning no monthly fee.
>
> End User License Agreement (EULA) is a software contract, where you agree to use their software, you never own the software. When the game ends you are expected to delete the software. Very few people seem to grasp this concept.
>
> The people I personally know, are friends and family, they foolishly throw money at these games buying nothing physical at all. All of these items are just as @kreatyve said, virtual items that can and will vanish when the game ends. All things end. The difference between the people I know and the people complaining here, seem to understand this is a gamble or a risk. I never heard them complain about the games, other than QoS (quality of service) and then the only option you have is to continue or give up.
>
> Looking at the example I gave above, she spent somewhere around $350 to $400 on that game and played for about 4 years very often. She still plays on there, just not as often, for a total of about 12 years. If I were to depreciate the cost over the first 6 years that comes to roughly $65 a year. Which is much less than anyone would pay for a subscription. If you have paid any money at all to Cryptic Studios over the 8 years, then simply divide your cost by the 8 years, and you basically paid that much a year to play this game. That is your non-refundable fee.
Some valid points there. However, the 'divide by 8 years' ought to be changed to 'x' as the amount of years/time actually played can/will wary wildly between different players.
As for ToS and EULAs, they are binding only in-so-far as they don't run afoul of existing local national laws (and sometimes international laws,) in whichever territories and regions the company in question is officially operating in. Hence why Valve had to update its ToS in 2012 after a German court ruled that users had the legal right (ownership) to transfer software licenses they paid for to other potential users. That law then became a precedent for the entire EU zone. (Valve being crafty removed the offending bits of their ToS stating licenses couldn't be transferred, but provided no direct means of selling or transferring a user account since the court ruling didn't specifically address that such a function be provided, only that users had the right to do so. Technicalities matter.)
It’s not really in my view correct to say that because you are paying for pixels that what you are paying for is worthless. There is a transaction happening - you pay money, you get something back. You’re paying for an experience and a particular desired result in the game, in the case of Neverwinter a way in which to improve your enjoyment of the game and your level in it. When someone looks at the game and makes the decision to pay real-world money into their game experience, they have a valid expectation that their investment will be of some worth to them and they weigh it all up in their heads and spend on the basis of the decision they come to based on the information they are given by the game. People have spent a fortune in some cases ranking-up enchants and whatnot in good faith to enhance their game experience because the game told them that is what they needed to do and that person spent on what they were led to believe by the game itself that they needed to. Now they are finding that what the game told them they needed to do is going to no longer be true, so they have wasted their money. Fact. But my point in this comment is more about the fact that just because it’s pixels and just because you don’t own anything, even really your account, doesn’t mean that what you are spending money on has no return value.
Then I got old (it happens to all of us) and had to give up team sports, and having paid what probably amounted to in excess of £40k over 25 years the only thing I have to show for it is fond memories. I wouldn't change anything from that time at all, it was money well spent.
So I found myself a new Hobby, and Neverwinter happened to be it. I also found myself with several £000's a year extra cash I was no longer spending to play sport. So given I could spare the money, I believe in supporting whatever my hobbies are and to be brutally honest my time is worth more than the money, I happily spent away to get what I wanted without the need to grind quite as much as others. So I think its a bit disingenuous to say a fool is easily parted with his money. A fool is easily parted with money they cant afford, but money spent to save the more precious commodity of time is money well spent, provided you're enjoying yourself doing it.
The interest point here is, it really is a foolish Business that pays absolutely no heed to its paying customers. I cant think of any other industry that does this. TV programs put out pilots to gauge interest, restaurants trial run taster menu's at reduced prices, almost every product release garners consumer feedback before releasing new products or making significant changes. The reason they do this is because they understand that unless people are willing to pay for their service or product they don't have a business.
I don't know the financial numbers for this game, and I highly doubt they will ever release them. But id be surprised if it has more than 10,000 genuinely active and unique accounts based on factors like the steam log in data and volume of players online at any given time.
Most people you meet in game swear blind they are free to play, and lets be honest we know the game only has a small team managing it, and they're quite slow at fixing issues and they're not exactly rolling out new and innovative features or modules with any great regularity, so I don't think they're making money hand over fist, they probably have little cash to work with above and beyond wages and overheads. The chances are that less than a thousand players are regularly contributing decent sums of money.
If this is even close to being true then the games very survival sits in a very concentrated group of players, and I find it extraordinary that they would risk a significant number of those players walking away without either having a guaranteed new income stream in place to replace them (which online games can't have, its speculative that new players will both join and pay to play) or without some sort of genuine consultation with its paying customers to mitigate potential fall out.
Ultimately the developers have more to loose than we do, I've paid my money I've enjoyed my time, I'm walking away and will find a new hobby and carry on with my life. However how many people who contribute financially can the game afford to see walk away? They get it wrong its not their hobby but their livelihood that's on the line.
Like I said, I don't know the numbers, maybe the game is already haemorrhaging money, the people who pay to play are not enough and this is a last desperate throw of the dice? Maybe the game has million active accounts with tens of thousands of pay to play players and they can afford to loose several hundred of them. Only time will tell. But as someone who's worked in Corporate Banking for decades, the management attitude to its own customer base is extremely unusual and not one I've ever seen from a successful business, and if I were their Banking Partner it would not give me the confidence to back them financially.
There's no incentive for you to stay as a customer.
How does that help anyone?
It does not help the developers.
t does not help customers.
It does not help the business or the game. And in the end it will result with dissatisfaction on all sides.
The company will lose money, since customers will tigthen their wallets or leave the game.
I do not really see the benefit on any side.
And lets not forget many customers had to tigthen their wallets already this year. Duo to the state of the world.
Asking the same customers to somehow pay for a change of a system in the game, by replacing everything they have sunken their money into before, does not seem like something that will turn out good. Or is going to be recieved well.
> Did you have fun playing? Did you get use out of what you paid for?
Ever the one to skirt the issue, and try to avoid answering legitimate observations and questions directly that make for uncomfortable reading if one is on or for Team Cryptic. Feel free to try another glib reply in an effort to redirect and avoid the line of query which you clearly understand the point of. It is somewhat amusing to watch, even if it is as vapid as it is predictable. 😊
> But in the end it is still only entertainment. You own nothing except maybe the device you're playing on.
And that does nothing to instill confidence or desire in the player/potential customer to spend/continue spending money (which Cryptic needs them to do as a business). Are the basics of quality customer service and enticing offers that result in less resistance between the customer willingly spending money vs. begrudgingly doing so (and eventually walking away) that difficult to grasp?
Tl;dr: It's about emotional intelligence and business savvy. Just because you can do something doesn't always mean it's the wisest/most lucrative thing to do.