@reg1981 I hope, also, that the game will change in such a way that dps cant just run ahead and murder everything in a couple seconds.
This was tried once, were you here for the changes to armor pen? What a mess that was LMAO. ECC was almost impossible without cheating/exploiting the bosses. Pull them from their chambers, kill them seperately or with spikes. Edge in bit by bit to grab aggro from 1 mob, if you got 2 you were toast. It really wasn't taken well by the player base.
I find that normal mobs are too easy and the end bosses are too hard in certain end game quests. So make the mobs tougher and the boss end fight easier. I always find it's a false sense of security with mobs only to wipe at boss. Or put named Mobs like hunts at certain points. DDO put in Mob Alerts that slowed up runners...they went full Red n it would get harder.
I will continue to play my OP Tank but wish for more love. It's not like I can scrap a 33k IL toon. My GWF is 28K and rising. One of my biggest issues with Pally's is the need for INT. Change Radiant Damage to Charisma or Con. I should not need INT on Pally. Str/Con/Cha... And of course they need to rework the Core Stats...Too basic.
I wasnt around at that time. And i dont hope for them to make the dungeons nearly impossible. But anything thats not a tank shouldnt be allowed to be able to tank hordes of mobs or bosses. People have been running 4 dps+1 heal lomm well before IC came out. As well no party should be able to finish the hardest dungeon in the game within 20 minutes. What i hope for is a more balanced system. Tanks should tank, dps should do damage and healers should heal. Right now all these are messed up. Tanks can self heal very effectively, dps can tank, healers can tank and still do good dps.
And, for me, most of it began with mod16. Tbh, i really liked how they changed classes. But they messed up with stats and companions. And tomm then separated the end-game from mid game way too much, ending up with many people getting an elitist attitude. Now the mount changes separated the end-gamers even more with even more elitist attitude. Like the person above who the only thing he had to say was about item level.
ROFL!! 36.5k item level is end game, unless you are 32K+ you are not considered near end game. People are stupid. Before the mount changes 27k ilvl was beating Zariel with no issues. Mount changes added in around 8k of useless item level. If anything the mount changes made item level an even more useless tool for measuring if someone is at or near end game capable.
This game has technically problems with Roles. End-Game: Lack Tanks, because it is hardest to play & it is expensive. RTQ/REDQ-Game: Lack Heal, because you only need to spam "E" and this is really weird. Heal get AD-Bonus now most of the time, while the game need tanks. Tanks not really needed at RTQ/REDQ, because you need only DPS. If you are high DPS, you guarantee win on everything. And fast for sure. If you are high Tank or high Healer you guarantee nothing. You can get 4 new players in your group and will have a "journey". You can guarantee maybe victory but at half pace if not more. Tank and Heal lack DPS. Much DPS. This is a huge problem. It is without any fun. And a really big problem is, there is really no use of a low tank. If you have HDPS in your group, you are not needed, and you will not even get aggro. You are there without any use and deal no damage. I am no fan of tankbuster, I say that thousands of times. But the way you go at the moment is false. Low-Content: No use for Tank. High-Content: Too hard for 99% of Tanks, where they are needed. If you do not change I would recommend to change queue to 1 Heal 4 DPS/Tank with maximum of 2 tanks. But increase DPS for Heal and Tank. If you want to change. My recommandation: Minors: +200% HP +200% Damage Output Boss: +50% HP +100% Damage Output The only way you die these days are mechanics. Monsters are stroke you, then there are mechanically oneshots. Feel weird. The Justicar has multiple AoE nobody use. Maybe Bane, thats it. Remove them. Took Burning light, increase magnitude and good, replace them with heal choices. Leave 1 AoE costs with divinity, that is enough. Scrap Paladin Loadouts to 1 Loadout. The Community did not want the Shields, now there are bad and the Paladin Healer is to weak. Remove Shields, give more heal to the Tank, Divine Shelter, Heal or DPS Aura(Choose) and good. And give us as 2nd Loadout as DPS. Thank you.
I could easily make the opposite argument regarding tanks. My OP has multiple loadouts. I have a dps orientated loadout for all but end game content. Not a comp dps loadout, but an augment based one. I keep yhe same self healing mount bonuses as my "tank" tank loadout, with gladiators for speed. I frequently out dps the dpsers in the party, don't need heals due to self healing, and can strike first and hold aggro. I could argue that the current OP status makes dps and healers unnecessary. I've also run IC numerous times without a healer, with an OP tank. That includes at the bosses, and includes deathless runs. I think like all classes, it comes down to really understanding the class and knowing how to utilize it for the situation at hand. Oh, I can also heal while tanking enough to save people from potentially bad situations. What other class can do all that???? Love my OP and will continue to do so. Play around, experiment and have fun. The truth is out there! :-)
> @reg1981 said: > (Quote) > This was tried once, were you here for the changes to armor pen? What a mess that was LMAO. ECC was almost impossible without cheating/exploiting the bosses. Pull them from their chambers, kill them seperately or with spikes. Edge in bit by bit to grab aggro from 1 mob, if you got 2 you were toast. It really wasn't taken well by the player base.
A good dps should be able to run ahead, pull aggro and not die. It's called dodging at the right time. Just because I don't die, doesn't mean I can't. It means I know the mechanics of the creatures and when to react. That doesn't make a tank uselss, it makes a dpser smart.
> This was tried once, were you here for the changes to armor pen? What a mess that was LMAO. ECC was almost impossible without cheating/exploiting the bosses. Pull them from their chambers, kill them seperately or with spikes. Edge in bit by bit to grab aggro from 1 mob, if you got 2 you were toast. It really wasn't taken well by the player base.
A good dps should be able to run ahead, pull aggro and not die. It's called dodging at the right time. Just because I don't die, doesn't mean I can't. It means I know the mechanics of the creatures and when to react. That doesn't make a tank uselss, it makes a dpser smart.
In the games current state, I agree. When the changes happened to armpen it was bad though! At least my experience was! There was NO way to step ahead and grab aggro. ECC was the hard dungeon of the time, the archers would 1 shot everything and everyone. So as soon as you pulled aggro, you were dead. Probably because no one understood the caps and resistances necessary to play the game! Me included!
I find it very hard to imagine a dps using all his stamina to faceplant into mobs and still have enough stamina to kite and dodge around. The barbie that uses all his stamina to run ahead and just stands there and hits is by no means dodging anything. And this is what happens in the vast majority of the cases and not only with barbies. And yeah, barbies have an encounter to self-heal. But a dps shouldnt be allowed to solo mobs in a dungeon that easily. Smart or not, dps shouldnt be allowed to have immense dps and tanky stats, a near end-game or end-game dps can easily have capped defense and 500k+ HP. And im really only seeing dps that face plant into mobs and stand there hitting, with extremely few exceptions that dodge. You may be smart, but dps are also way overpowered.
I didnt say that as a justification, nor do i bring drama over this specific thing. Im bringing it as an example. And, true, in every rpg there are more dps than healer and tanks. But sitting in queue for 30 minutes as dps because the game cant find a tank is absurd. And yes this has happened. I used to play dps, but i dont remember the queues being so long, ever. It only shows that there are less and less tanks left in the game and the same goes for healers.
I did testing for all barbarian sentinel threat sources. The following link shows the threat multipliers individually and with various power combinations.
The threat multipliers are in line with Fighter's threat multipliers. The reason why barbarians have a harder time holding aggro at the start of fights is that we have only 1 "Increased Threat" power, Primal Fury, and because it costs rage to use, we can't use it since rage is empty at the start of the fight. Additionally, because the damage of Primal Fury scales with how empty our block is, at the start of the fight when out block is full, it only does 100 magnitude worth of damage.
A little more different design choices would help tanks in NW for sure. No idea if it ever happens.
Classes in general would benefit a ton from having more distinct gameplay roles and gameplay designs. Otherwise, we're just going to judge classes in terms of what's objectively the strongest, rather than looking at what classes excel at/uniquely provide over other classes.
I could easily make the opposite argument regarding tanks. My OP has multiple loadouts. I have a dps orientated loadout for all but end game content. Not a comp dps loadout, but an augment based one. I keep yhe same self healing mount bonuses as my "tank" tank loadout, with gladiators for speed. I frequently out dps the dpsers in the party, don't need heals due to self healing, and can strike first and hold aggro. I could argue that the current OP status makes dps and healers unnecessary. I've also run IC numerous times without a healer, with an OP tank. That includes at the bosses, and includes deathless runs. I think like all classes, it comes down to really understanding the class and knowing how to utilize it for the situation at hand. Oh, I can also heal while tanking enough to save people from potentially bad situations. What other class can do all that???? Love my OP and will continue to do so. Play around, experiment and have fun. The truth is out there! :-)
Well. Let us divide in DPS Tank and Full Tank. You play everything in DPS Tank Modus except IC Bosses (Possible in DPS Tank Modus if Healer is good), TOMM/Zariel. Everything else I play as DPS Tank and pull out my chicken. Yes in this DPS Modus I outperform most of the time everyone else in REDQ/RTQ. But you have to be fair. They are in most of the time weak as players, with weak characters, no focus or whatelse. You cannot compare 34K IL vs 24K IL and new player. If you play with real HDPS you are outperformed x2, x3, x4, x5(!) - while ofcourse I outperformed not only once players by x2, x3, x4, x5(!) - but this with the difference that I am only able to perform like that play with grandma 24K IL while cooking (I do not know) If you play with talented DPS that know what they do, they am able to beat you easily with 8K IL lower. If I play 95% of the time in DPS Tank modus, why I have only Tank/Heal? Why I need to play DPS as Tank with only low damage. I have zero aggro Problems. If you active attack and have all offense stats nearly capped there is no problem. That is true and good. I am against opposite doing less give more hard taunts. Nevermind. This is against of what I want. Best AoE Taunt Aura and only run in raised shield modus? Nevermind. Opposite. Lower Taunt from x7 or x5 to x3 BUT raise damage. And about solo old dungeons. I see no problem. Most HDPS are capable too doing that. Even faster. This is common in most MMO. I solo elite Dungeons in many MMO. How would you build a tank? It is a healthy sign tanks are capable in soloing dungeons. He is meant to be rock hard. You will always need more time soloing, that is the cost. Fair. Think about Dodge of DPS. They were able doing TIC without Tank months before. Tank is only needed with non avoidable Tankbuster 600K+. Tomm/Zariel.
When I read you guys here. I have to write: Better keep everything as it is. Would get worse. Every Player need to be able to get the feeling: Cooool. Then there is a healthy playerbase. I do no get this feeling after survived 20 Hits. I feel only like servant to DPS. Blockbot. No one thank you. DPS are the real hero. You are on #1 DPS you are the king. If you die as tank and wipe the raid you will have no mercy. While bad DPS hide behind top dps on #6 #7. A godlike tank paired with 2 godlike HDPS should be #3 on damage, if everyone else only decent player. Edit: A really big problem is tankbuster and lag. Tanks have to overuse block, because of lag. Million times I blocked but got not mitigated hit. That is why I think 1 single Million hit is wrong. Spread it over 2-3 seconds to 4 hits. Most often the response of the game is bad. You do not block, you die by server fault as tank. But you wiped the raid. Get feeling like idiot and you get no mercy. Endgame difficult: DPS: Dealing damage(Character/Build Optimization/Playing Optimized Rotation(QER)TAB/Mount) + Deal with mechanics. Heal: You spam "E" paired with Encounter for ressource regeneration and have most stress with single target heal. + Deal with mechanics. Tank: Dealing damage(Character/Build Optimization/Playing Optimized Rotation(QER)TAB/Mount) for Aggro(I have to check by second if there is a hard taunt needed) + Survival of hit. While maintain Aggro you have to check your Hitpoints(and use survival Encounter) every second and have to deal with lag. Paingiver has no real disadvantage coming from lag. And a Tank is not able to overuse block, because you rip off your Stamina and die on next hit. + Deal with mechanics. + Deal with Tank mechanics. + You move the boss. Even if Tank would have automatic block, we would have tougher gameplay. That is why there are no tanks. Playing as DPS and rock the leaderboard is lazy funny game. A real action based RPG. What would lower Paingiver think about a Leaderboard converted to Stat Board, showing 10 Players on each category with Star Rating compared to the Server. That is what Tank feel. You cannot hide as weak tank behind the raid. If you do faults or if Tank is to weak you simply wipe the raid.
If nothing else, they could increase the agro bonus our damage does. 40% more agro seemed a little low when mod 16 came out, maybe increase that by a good amount.
We may not be there to do damage but our damage should draw more agro to us.
If nothing else, they could increase the agro bonus our damage does. 40% more agro seemed a little low when mod 16 came out, maybe increase that by a good amount.
We may not be there to do damage but our damage should draw more agro to us.
Cryptic logic = Easier Aggro come at a cost of lower damage or heavier tankbuster. Endgame is endgame. That would mean, a tank would suck even more than he do now. In this case I would move to DPS instead of playing Tank. I mean, if I would not be forced as Paladin to play support.
When a fighter blocks, he applies all resistances he has, either it being from defense or from % resistances. When a paladin blocks, this doesnt happen, he eats all the damage. So lets say that a fighter and a paladin both have capped defense, which is 50% damage resistance, and they each want to block a 100k hit. The fighter will take 50k to his stamina, because his block applies that 50% resistance from the hit, while a paladin will eat the whole 100k to his stamina.
This is definitely not true. If you have ever tanked master Zariel and compared it with a GF, you will know there's no way this could be true. The difference in damage taken from the tank buster attacks would be very obvious. Same with solo tanking Halaster and taking his annihilate.
after the mount changes came i started struggling to hold aggro.
While there may be some tweaks that devs can do here after the mount changes, keep in mind OPs have a spammable single target taunt that deals good dmg. You should be ready with plenty of divinity on debuff calls or when you see mount/arti debuffs being cast on boss. You can also save your daily for Divine Judgement to use while boss is debuffed. Sacred weapon helps as well. You shouldn't be standing around and just blocking for any period of time.
I saw the writing on the wall with tanks years ago and switched to healz/dps, both are SO MUCH easier to play than tank.
I admire a great tank though, seen some awesome ones over the years, once you got the right setup, right gear, learn to time your defences and rotation, you can be a great tank as well.
Comments
and the boss end fight easier. I always find it's a false sense of security with mobs only to wipe at boss. Or put named Mobs like hunts at certain points. DDO put in Mob Alerts that slowed up runners...they went full Red n it would get harder.
I will continue to play my OP Tank but wish for more love. It's not like I can scrap a 33k IL toon. My GWF is 28K and rising.
One of my biggest issues with Pally's is the need for INT. Change Radiant Damage to Charisma or Con.
I should not need INT on Pally. Str/Con/Cha... And of course they need to rework the Core Stats...Too basic.
I wasnt around at that time. And i dont hope for them to make the dungeons nearly impossible. But anything thats not a tank shouldnt be allowed to be able to tank hordes of mobs or bosses. People have been running 4 dps+1 heal lomm well before IC came out. As well no party should be able to finish the hardest dungeon in the game within 20 minutes.
What i hope for is a more balanced system. Tanks should tank, dps should do damage and healers should heal. Right now all these are messed up. Tanks can self heal very effectively, dps can tank, healers can tank and still do good dps.
And, for me, most of it began with mod16. Tbh, i really liked how they changed classes. But they messed up with stats and companions. And tomm then separated the end-game from mid game way too much, ending up with many people getting an elitist attitude. Now the mount changes separated the end-gamers even more with even more elitist attitude. Like the person above who the only thing he had to say was about item level.
End-Game: Lack Tanks, because it is hardest to play & it is expensive.
RTQ/REDQ-Game: Lack Heal, because you only need to spam "E" and this is really weird.
Heal get AD-Bonus now most of the time, while the game need tanks.
Tanks not really needed at RTQ/REDQ, because you need only DPS.
If you are high DPS, you guarantee win on everything. And fast for sure. If you are high Tank or high Healer you guarantee nothing. You can get 4 new players in your group and will have a "journey". You can guarantee maybe victory but at half pace if not more. Tank and Heal lack DPS. Much DPS. This is a huge problem. It is without any fun.
And a really big problem is, there is really no use of a low tank. If you have HDPS in your group, you are not needed, and you will not even get aggro. You are there without any use and deal no damage.
I am no fan of tankbuster, I say that thousands of times. But the way you go at the moment is false. Low-Content: No use for Tank. High-Content: Too hard for 99% of Tanks, where they are needed.
If you do not change I would recommend to change queue to 1 Heal 4 DPS/Tank with maximum of 2 tanks. But increase DPS for Heal and Tank.
If you want to change. My recommandation:
Minors: +200% HP +200% Damage Output
Boss: +50% HP +100% Damage Output
The only way you die these days are mechanics. Monsters are stroke you, then there are mechanically oneshots. Feel weird.
The Justicar has multiple AoE nobody use. Maybe Bane, thats it. Remove them. Took Burning light, increase magnitude and good, replace them with heal choices. Leave 1 AoE costs with divinity, that is enough.
Scrap Paladin Loadouts to 1 Loadout. The Community did not want the Shields, now there are bad and the Paladin Healer is to weak. Remove Shields, give more heal to the Tank, Divine Shelter, Heal or DPS Aura(Choose) and good. And give us as 2nd Loadout as DPS. Thank you.
> (Quote)
> This was tried once, were you here for the changes to armor pen? What a mess that was LMAO. ECC was almost impossible without cheating/exploiting the bosses. Pull them from their chambers, kill them seperately or with spikes. Edge in bit by bit to grab aggro from 1 mob, if you got 2 you were toast. It really wasn't taken well by the player base.
A good dps should be able to run ahead, pull aggro and not die. It's called dodging at the right time. Just because I don't die, doesn't mean I can't. It means I know the mechanics of the creatures and when to react. That doesn't make a tank uselss, it makes a dpser smart.
I find it very hard to imagine a dps using all his stamina to faceplant into mobs and still have enough stamina to kite and dodge around. The barbie that uses all his stamina to run ahead and just stands there and hits is by no means dodging anything. And this is what happens in the vast majority of the cases and not only with barbies. And yeah, barbies have an encounter to self-heal. But a dps shouldnt be allowed to solo mobs in a dungeon that easily. Smart or not, dps shouldnt be allowed to have immense dps and tanky stats, a near end-game or end-game dps can easily have capped defense and 500k+ HP. And im really only seeing dps that face plant into mobs and stand there hitting, with extremely few exceptions that dodge. You may be smart, but dps are also way overpowered.
@ayleen#2040
I didnt say that as a justification, nor do i bring drama over this specific thing. Im bringing it as an example. And, true, in every rpg there are more dps than healer and tanks. But sitting in queue for 30 minutes as dps because the game cant find a tank is absurd. And yes this has happened. I used to play dps, but i dont remember the queues being so long, ever. It only shows that there are less and less tanks left in the game and the same goes for healers.
I did testing for all barbarian sentinel threat sources. The following link shows the threat multipliers individually and with various power combinations.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AadN7BYT_lZ_puLT2PEiRZupz1JEZ6NN/view?usp=sharing
The threat multipliers are in line with Fighter's threat multipliers. The reason why barbarians have a harder time holding aggro at the start of fights is that we have only 1 "Increased Threat" power, Primal Fury, and because it costs rage to use, we can't use it since rage is empty at the start of the fight. Additionally, because the damage of Primal Fury scales with how empty our block is, at the start of the fight when out block is full, it only does 100 magnitude worth of damage.
You play everything in DPS Tank Modus except IC Bosses (Possible in DPS Tank Modus if Healer is good), TOMM/Zariel. Everything else I play as DPS Tank and pull out my chicken. Yes in this DPS Modus I outperform most of the time everyone else in REDQ/RTQ. But you have to be fair. They are in most of the time weak as players, with weak characters, no focus or whatelse. You cannot compare 34K IL vs 24K IL and new player. If you play with real HDPS you are outperformed x2, x3, x4, x5(!) - while ofcourse I outperformed not only once players by x2, x3, x4, x5(!) - but this with the difference that I am only able to perform like that play with grandma 24K IL while cooking (I do not know) If you play with talented DPS that know what they do, they am able to beat you easily with 8K IL lower.
If I play 95% of the time in DPS Tank modus, why I have only Tank/Heal? Why I need to play DPS as Tank with only low damage.
I have zero aggro Problems. If you active attack and have all offense stats nearly capped there is no problem. That is true and good. I am against opposite doing less give more hard taunts. Nevermind. This is against of what I want. Best AoE Taunt Aura and only run in raised shield modus? Nevermind. Opposite. Lower Taunt from x7 or x5 to x3 BUT raise damage. And about solo old dungeons. I see no problem. Most HDPS are capable too doing that. Even faster. This is common in most MMO. I solo elite Dungeons in many MMO. How would you build a tank? It is a healthy sign tanks are capable in soloing dungeons. He is meant to be rock hard. You will always need more time soloing, that is the cost. Fair. Think about Dodge of DPS. They were able doing TIC without Tank months before. Tank is only needed with non avoidable Tankbuster 600K+. Tomm/Zariel.
When I read you guys here. I have to write: Better keep everything as it is. Would get worse. Every Player need to be able to get the feeling: Cooool. Then there is a healthy playerbase. I do no get this feeling after survived 20 Hits. I feel only like servant to DPS. Blockbot. No one thank you. DPS are the real hero. You are on #1 DPS you are the king. If you die as tank and wipe the raid you will have no mercy. While bad DPS hide behind top dps on #6 #7. A godlike tank paired with 2 godlike HDPS should be #3 on damage, if everyone else only decent player.
Edit: A really big problem is tankbuster and lag. Tanks have to overuse block, because of lag. Million times I blocked but got not mitigated hit. That is why I think 1 single Million hit is wrong. Spread it over 2-3 seconds to 4 hits. Most often the response of the game is bad. You do not block, you die by server fault as tank. But you wiped the raid. Get feeling like idiot and you get no mercy.
Endgame difficult:
DPS: Dealing damage(Character/Build Optimization/Playing Optimized Rotation(QER)TAB/Mount) + Deal with mechanics.
Heal: You spam "E" paired with Encounter for ressource regeneration and have most stress with single target heal. + Deal with mechanics.
Tank: Dealing damage(Character/Build Optimization/Playing Optimized Rotation(QER)TAB/Mount) for Aggro(I have to check by second if there is a hard taunt needed) + Survival of hit. While maintain Aggro you have to check your Hitpoints(and use survival Encounter) every second and have to deal with lag. Paingiver has no real disadvantage coming from lag. And a Tank is not able to overuse block, because you rip off your Stamina and die on next hit. + Deal with mechanics. + Deal with Tank mechanics. + You move the boss.
Even if Tank would have automatic block, we would have tougher gameplay. That is why there are no tanks. Playing as DPS and rock the leaderboard is lazy funny game. A real action based RPG.
What would lower Paingiver think about a Leaderboard converted to Stat Board, showing 10 Players on each category with Star Rating compared to the Server. That is what Tank feel. You cannot hide as weak tank behind the raid. If you do faults or if Tank is to weak you simply wipe the raid.
We may not be there to do damage but our damage should draw more agro to us.
I admire a great tank though, seen some awesome ones over the years, once you got the right setup, right gear, learn to time your defences and rotation, you can be a great tank as well.