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Tanks in Neverwinter LOL, time to scrap my tank
melechest
Member Posts: 106 Arc User
This is a QQ thread. Ignore it if you dont like that.
Okey. Some background first. Im a paladin tank close to endgame. My friends, the people i run dungeons with, are also end game or close to end game. Since mod16, with all the changes this brought, i was always able to hold aggro against them. But every new mod, every new change it would become more and more difficult. And then, in just 1 day, after the mount changes came i started struggling to hold aggro.
Almost every change in the game after mod 16 would cater to dps. Give them better gear, give them more damage, give them even more damage. All the while tank would get bits and pieces here and there, some of which arent even that good. A ring that gives you damage resistance while running and a ring that generates threat while running? Yeah sure. Because my role as a tank is to run in circles around the boss. The only change that really gave something to tanks was the buffs to the HP from Constitution. All the while dps get tons and tons of damage.
And paladin tanks are the most untouched class for well over a year. Paladins have been crying to at least fix our block so that it has resistances like fighter's block. Over a year and still nothing. Fighters and barbie tanks are not in a much better spot. They got some improvements some time ago, but outside of that nothing.
Tanks have been crying since mod16 for some improvements to threat and aggro, still nothing. Only thing i have heard is "we are planning to look into it".
Tanks get close to nothing in this game. Dps get everything in this game. Healers get nerfs, but they are lucky because the gear they need, that gives power or critical chance, is gear that caters to dps so they bring a lot of it.
There is no love for tanks in Neverwinter. No wonder that there are less and less tanks in the game. Some are leaving and some are switching to dps.
Really, when you have "end-game" dps in your party, tanks are almost useless. You only need tanks in Zariel, TOMM and in the bosses in IC. Other than that dps can handle everything. I have even seen dps with 600k HP and tons of damage. Thats crazy.
At this point, Cryptic could just remove tanks as a class overall. Just increase the HP of the dps a little, decrease the damage of the one-shots from the bosses a bit and dps will be able to handle everything, you completely eliminate the need for tanks. Not that there is much need for them anyway.
I dont even have fun running dungeons. The dps can just run ahead and murder everything, while im trying to catch up. Since i dont have any sprints, dodges or anything to move faster. And no, i dont want to get mount bonuses to run faster because im not a sprinter.
And im pretty sure the next changes in the game, maybe mod20, i dont know, will bring more damage to the dps, give them more HP and more tools. Tanks will just get a couple of bad gear pieces, some more HP, but in the end nothing that will help them keep up with the power ups the dps will get.
I like Neverwinter as a game. But i come to hate more and more the favoritism towards the dps, that tanks feel so forgotten and unimportant.
I guess its time to just scrap my beloved tank, the one i have invested so much on and start building a dps. Life is becoming harder and harder for tanks after all and you keep getting the feeling that you are not needed, that you are not really a part of the game but just some leftovers that no one cared to remove.
I know a lot of tanks who left the game or switched to dps. And im willing to bet that more will follow, until there are just a handful of tanks left.
Okey. Some background first. Im a paladin tank close to endgame. My friends, the people i run dungeons with, are also end game or close to end game. Since mod16, with all the changes this brought, i was always able to hold aggro against them. But every new mod, every new change it would become more and more difficult. And then, in just 1 day, after the mount changes came i started struggling to hold aggro.
Almost every change in the game after mod 16 would cater to dps. Give them better gear, give them more damage, give them even more damage. All the while tank would get bits and pieces here and there, some of which arent even that good. A ring that gives you damage resistance while running and a ring that generates threat while running? Yeah sure. Because my role as a tank is to run in circles around the boss. The only change that really gave something to tanks was the buffs to the HP from Constitution. All the while dps get tons and tons of damage.
And paladin tanks are the most untouched class for well over a year. Paladins have been crying to at least fix our block so that it has resistances like fighter's block. Over a year and still nothing. Fighters and barbie tanks are not in a much better spot. They got some improvements some time ago, but outside of that nothing.
Tanks have been crying since mod16 for some improvements to threat and aggro, still nothing. Only thing i have heard is "we are planning to look into it".
Tanks get close to nothing in this game. Dps get everything in this game. Healers get nerfs, but they are lucky because the gear they need, that gives power or critical chance, is gear that caters to dps so they bring a lot of it.
There is no love for tanks in Neverwinter. No wonder that there are less and less tanks in the game. Some are leaving and some are switching to dps.
Really, when you have "end-game" dps in your party, tanks are almost useless. You only need tanks in Zariel, TOMM and in the bosses in IC. Other than that dps can handle everything. I have even seen dps with 600k HP and tons of damage. Thats crazy.
At this point, Cryptic could just remove tanks as a class overall. Just increase the HP of the dps a little, decrease the damage of the one-shots from the bosses a bit and dps will be able to handle everything, you completely eliminate the need for tanks. Not that there is much need for them anyway.
I dont even have fun running dungeons. The dps can just run ahead and murder everything, while im trying to catch up. Since i dont have any sprints, dodges or anything to move faster. And no, i dont want to get mount bonuses to run faster because im not a sprinter.
And im pretty sure the next changes in the game, maybe mod20, i dont know, will bring more damage to the dps, give them more HP and more tools. Tanks will just get a couple of bad gear pieces, some more HP, but in the end nothing that will help them keep up with the power ups the dps will get.
I like Neverwinter as a game. But i come to hate more and more the favoritism towards the dps, that tanks feel so forgotten and unimportant.
I guess its time to just scrap my beloved tank, the one i have invested so much on and start building a dps. Life is becoming harder and harder for tanks after all and you keep getting the feeling that you are not needed, that you are not really a part of the game but just some leftovers that no one cared to remove.
I know a lot of tanks who left the game or switched to dps. And im willing to bet that more will follow, until there are just a handful of tanks left.
5
Comments
To your point with the aggro I can only say that tanks also have to adjust to changes of DPS classes. If DPS classes are dealing more damage maybe tanks have to invest in CA to keep the aggro. Tunnel Vision is the best example for such an adjustment. If you run Zariel with 60k CA you will have a very hard time to keep the aggro. This won't be the case if you run with 140k CA. Every change in the core system of the DPS classes also effects the tanks in the end.
If a tank gets boring for you there is nothing wrong with trying out a different role like DPS. I played a DPS for 15 modules until the boredom killed me. Now I am playing a tank and I am very happy again. Something different might help you to bring back the joy you are missing at the moment
Cap your offensive stats
Arpen
Crit
Accu
Combat adv(important one! Also position for ca!)
Then come back and brag about how not even 10m tv hits can rip aggro from you. You got this, good luck.
So. one thing you are saying is that in end-game content all classes are required, which is true. But really, in all of the dungeons and skirmishes, tanks are required in only 5 boss fights. So you are telling me that in order for me to have some fun in the game is to keep doing those same things again and again? Because in every other dungeon there are always the dps that will run ahead, murder everything and keep running. Same goes for IC, except that tanks are actually needed in the boss fights. For me is not fun when im in a dungeon and all i do is running behind 1-2 people trying to catch up.
As for the feat you are talking about, which one is it? Because my paladin doesnt have such a feat. Not that i havent selected it, its just nowhere. And probably you got no idea about what im saying about block on fighters and tanks. When a fighter blocks, he applies all resistances he has, either it being from defense or from % resistances. When a paladin blocks, this doesnt happen, he eats all the damage. So lets say that a fighter and a paladin both have capped defense, which is 50% damage resistance, and they each want to block a 100k hit. The fighter will take 50k to his stamina, because his block applies that 50% resistance from the hit, while a paladin will eat the whole 100k to his stamina. You may say that paladins are the "best balanced", but that disadvantage on block is just hugely unfair.
And one more thing you said. After the changes to the mounts, my dps friends got a big damage boost. What did i, as a tank, get? Pretty much nothing. And what you are saying here is that every time a change is made to the game, which will heavily favor dps, i have to re-adjust everything as a tank with the things i already have and the few scraps tank will get. Yeah, not happening. Every change that has been made to the game since mod16 is heavily unfair to tanks.
Yeah... Thanks for the tip, but my offense stats are already capped or very close to cap to even matter. You can still lose aggro to some dps if you cant stand there and keep attacking while the dps are free to keep bursting the boss.
is your current mount bolster at 100% with 10 fully upgraded mounts ?
maybe a screen shot of your character and companions /. mounts
then we shall see why you cant hold ago ..lol
I think you " believe" you are near end game Tank but actually are not ..therefore cant hold/take end game dps agro back
seems pretty logical to me ..
And it is worse than you write here. It is not untouched for 1 year, but only received nerfs. (Shield of Faith) Now worse than ever. No aura, broken heal.
As you write. If everything okay, why there is a shortage of players. The day Paladin get DPS loadout will bring the truth.
There is no comparance of gameplay. DPS is like qwert, 123 moving. Pokemon in comparance of playing tank.
I said near end-game, not end-game. 36.5k with 100% bolster is end-game. Also, i really got nothing to prove. If you dont believe me, you dont believe me and i couldnt care less about it. As i said this is a QQ post. And its not only about holding aggro, its also that dps get everything and anything tanks ever get are a few quite bad gear pieces here and there.
@hastati96
The total amount of damage block can get is the same. But i explained the big difference between fighter and paladin tank. You also dont seem to understand how block (shift) and tab mechanics work. Block always has 50% of max HP, tab has 50% of max HP, increased to 75% with the feat, and thats the same for both fighters and paladins. When a fighter uses tab he immediately blocks all damage, when a paladin uses tab he takes half damage to his HP and half damage to stamina, but paladins can use block while tab is active to block 100% of the damage but from only 1 direction. I explained the disadvantage paladins have, but ill explain it here again. A fighter's block has the toon's resistances, a paladin's block doesnt have resistances. Lets say a fighter and a paladin have both capped defense (50% damage resistance) and they both try to block 100k damage. When the fighter vlocks he will reduce that damage by 50%, so he will take 50k damage to his stamina, if the paladin blocks, he wont apply any resistances to the block, so he will eat all 100k damage to his stamina. The same goes for their tab powers too. And yeah, when you are eating over 1 million damage on a single hit, having resistances on block is very significant. How is that not a disadvantage? Thats also the reason that, when Zariel first came on preview, most groups would mostly get fighters for training.
Also, really, why should i be forced to use Tunnel Vision in order for me to hold aggro better and not being able to use a defensive power? And, really, should i be glad to get up to 5.8k combined rating when dps get everything catered to them?
Do you all expect me to be happy with tanks getting scraps and dps getting everything? What sort of thinking is that? Would you be happy if the game catered around tanks and you, dps, got only bits and pieces here and there?
Why do you even think that the amount of tanks and healers in the game is decreasing? Why do you think many tanks and healers are switching to dps or leaving the game? And yeah, i know a lot who did that.
I used to have fun playing Sentinel. Over 200+ TOMM completions as solo tank. I gived up because the threat generation was awful.
good now that we established and agreed that 36.5k is end game
so what is your "near" end game item level then ? within 10%-15% of that ? if you are not 32k+ item level you are not near end game either... QQ lol
- Consider switching from augment to active companion.
To cryptic:As i said, i really dont care whether you believe me or not. You can believe that im a 20k baby toon, i couldnt care less.
And you are really missing everything im trying to say in here.
I have been waiting along time for NWN to make some good changes to Tanks. We should get back Temp HP among more DPS.
Pally are a fighting based class and shouldn't be an after thought when it comes to DPS.
At least they need to add DPS style to OP Tanks and remove Heal or just add DPS for a third. Hopefully Druids will be the new
Class and will be DPS/Heal. So Pallys can be Tank/DPS. I have played other D&D gamees (DDO) and Pally's are decient DPS
with play styles. Every body and their mother can switch from DPS to Tank tree's but OP
An don't tell me Oh Pally we need u at end game...right. only some very few. I see it all the time...dps n heal...no Tank.
So when u play high IL OP tank, u are an after thought. Barb's and GF can switch. Even Cleric's can go DPS.
Make Cleric Tank/Heal instead of DPS...and the flames would be bright... Make Pally DPS/Heal...
This burns me up for a very long time. Reason I'm bringing up my IL on Barb aka GWF. But it is true, all we see is DPS updates
and no Tank more specific Pally Love!!! GF and Barb dont need it... since they can switch out.
Pally's get the very short end of the STICK. Oh Support or Support, which should I play. And Yes Pally's are my favorite type of toon. But NWN is ruining it for me and make going back to DDO a possiblity. TWF/THF OPTIONS...unlike NWN
yes i do agree a tank has to be over geared to be effective and that might not be fair ..
I doubt they'll go third loadout... then they'd would need three for all classes.
I think the fix is Druid. Heal/DPS so that Pally can become DPS/Tank. I'm sure some folks like Pally Heal, I don't play
and don't have loadout for it. Nor will I ever. I have two Tank loadouts, with one more tank and 2nd for solo more dps.
Come Nov, I'll have all ten Mounts at Mystic... Already bought enough... aka play to win game that it is...
But the OP has a point that Pally's need more love and DPS needs less. No nerf. Just give Pally some love.
I would like to see Temp Wrath get back Temp HP. I miss it.
It's too bad that NWN toons are so restricted. Because a Pally should really use Charisma for DPS (not STR).
It's total BS that I need to up INT in order to up my encounter damage. It makes Pallys even more nerf'd...
Almost all toons can min max in the six stats and the offensive stats (Power, Ap, Crit, Acc, CA). With little regard to the other defensive stats (besides Defense). Pallys cannot... I see Barbs all the time, All Offense and only Defense, the rest are min.
You are really missing the point, are you?
I dont want to change my play style, i dont want to change my build. It worked before the mount changes, now the same people that i didnt have any issue holding aggro against simply make me struggle.
And i though i made it clear that this is a QQ thread. Not a thread where i ask for help or advice.
And, ill say it once again, I dont care what you think my toon is. You can believe that its a 20k baby toon and i couldnt care less.
If you come here to brag about being 50k il i dont care. If the only think you can speak of is item level, then please remove yourself from this post.
there is only one possible playstyle in high content.
Divine Challenger Feat and Smite. Then you do as less as you can and wait for as much stamina as you can. Best do nothing. Use Elven Battle Enchantment. Use Binding Oath. Before big hits hit you, you can use TAB mechanic, if you have divinity. That's it. The more you do, you will tend to overblock and if you overblock you regain less stamina. Yes. It is booooring as hell. Cryptic do not want you to DPS. They think in 1999 scheme of Paper Rock Scissors. You are not more than a blockbot.
Skip high content, play like a DPS, have much fun as DPS-Tank and good game. 90% of Justicars just do that. Tbh. I do not even know why they have a D&D license. In the lore Paladin is high DPS. in Neverwinter Paladin is low DPS. In Lore Paladin has Aura. In Neverwinter Paladin has no Aura. Even the healer has no healing Aura. While Soulweaver has Aura. Devout has aura like HOT. I cannot drink that much to understand that logic. Sorry.
Edit: In my opinion they lost their path. For DPS it is still action based RPG. For Tank it is more like a survival adventure game. You start your journey in hope of flexibility building unique characters like in a sandbox and wake up with wow stereotypes. And Paladin is more of a Fighter Cleric dual class.
Even if it is true I am still the opinion there is no disadvantage for a Paladin. I have completed over 50 Zariel runs and usually Paladin is used as maintank, Fighter as offtank (due to Phalanx). A Fighter should almost feel invincible with that much of a difference but it doesn't.
I have never seen a Babarian so if you really want to complain then this thread should be about Barbarians. Fighter and Paladin do their jobs equally well in Zariel and if you really want to compare the balancing of classes this is the best place atm. Thats is an issue on your side. If you don't want to use TV that generates A LOT of aggro for you then don't complain about not being able to hold aggro againt DPS that uses it. The game evolves and you have too.
My biggest issue is not that the game evolves, my main issue is that the game evolves completely around dps. Healers and tanks get only scraps. Though healers not as much since the gear they need, which provides power, is also catered to dps.
And because dps are getting a lot stronger in that way while tanks slowly get by with nothing but scraps, in the vast majority of group content, if you have 1 good dps, tanks are pretty much unneeded. Only places tanks are really and always needed are the bosses in IC, tomm and zariel. This is not fun at all.
If i had a penny every time someone told me that tanks are mostly not needed or are just a convenience, or every time i go in a dungeon and run behind without really doing anything because the dps can run ahead and clear everything in the blink of an eye, i would be a billionaire by now. And it gets even worse. Getting told by dps go there and do that so i can deal more damage, get bilethorn so i can do more damage, play this way cause its easier for me and i do more damage. The amount of times the dps make my life hard. How many times healers have wasted their divinity or soulweave to keep the dps alive, because they love to stand on red and take massive damage, and then the healer just doesnt have enough to heal the tank. And like you said, i am forced to slot specific things so i can keep up with the damage, why must i do that instead of slotting defensive ones. The game evolves and it evolves all around dps. Tanks get only scraps. And dps are getting stronger and stronger, bolder and bolder, even more abusive. Am i supposed to shut up, do whatever is convenient to the dps and accept everything?
Dps love to cry when another dps class is stronger than their class. They love to cry when their class cant keep up with the damage of other classes.
Yet, when tanks come here and cry because they get absolutely nothing, you are all like "its you fault", "its your issue", "be glad that you got 5.7k combined rating" (and thats an actual quote from someone who posted here).
Cryptic throws tanks in a hole and you all are eager to come and completely bury us. It must be nice when the whole game and every change made to it caters to what you play. Reasons why tanks are leaving the game or switching to dps. Just reasons that you are seemingly eager to feed.
Will be fun if this continues and there are only a handful of tanks left in the game.
Oh and to quote a dps from a few days ago. I was helping with a tomm run and he put me in the dps party because i have a raptor, even though i wouldnt even use it, which made my life miserable because the healers couldnt heal me effectively and i couldnt play well with the other tank who was a newbie. When i told asked him to put me in the tank/healer party he told me, and i quote, "you are a tank, who the f*** cares".
As a tank having 2 or more of this is very valuable. as a healer or a dps 1 is a must, more is up to them.
So maybe take a step back on your stance on the "im not a sprinter" and consider using the available tools that are there for you to lessen the issue of "dps always run ahead and im not having fun just moving behind them".
But hey no worries if you are not touching your tank anymore. I personally dont understand the need to announce the "im quitting" or "im deleting my tank/heal" - you do whatever makes you happy while playing the game. You dont need anyone's verification or approval or to have someone give you a "tap on the back" for you to end your "suffering".
And yeah, i could step back a bit and use the insignia bonus you are referring to. But here are the 2 issues. Even if i get that 15%, if i remember correctly, movement speed increase from that insignia bonus, guess what, dps can sprint and use all their mobility skills to still run ahead. I do have the boons for ms speed but even if i have higher movement speed than the dps, they always have ways to run ahead of me.
Second issue, this is only a part of what i said. Will me slotting even 5 of those insignia bonuses bring tanks out of the hole they have been thrown into? If i slot those bonuses, will tanks start get getting good gear? Will changes cater to all 3 roles, tanks, healers and dps, instead of only the dps? Will tanks become needed in all group content rather than a mere convinience in some of them? Will the dps stop their abuse towards tanks and healers? Will dps stop treating both tanks and healers like they exist only to serve them?
I very highly doubt that.
This maybe a stupid question, but of course i'll ask anyway - seems like you are running mostly with people who likes to rush ahead, hence you get this experience.
Have you ever tried typing out in game to whoever you are playing with if they dont mind rushing ahead and let the tank go first because you dont find it fun when they rush on? I personally find typing in game, even in public queue, somehow helps destroy this "every man for himself" thinking while in a dungeon or a trial.
I mentioned the insignia bonuses because it is there to lessen that gap of mobility you are pointing out like "there is nothing that you can do about it".
DPS cant do HUMSTER in a trial if there are no tanks/heals. 5 man dungeons they can solo if they want. you can solo it too.
dps are like rocks, tanks and heals are like diamonds. how about you use that fact, and create your own queues, so you can play with people you like who respects what each other wants in order to have fun playing?
Typing this in chat almost never works. You can ask them 10 times as politely as possible to not run ahead, to not faceplant on the boss before you aggro him. 99% of the time it doesnt work. Even if you let fight the mobs alone, in pug groups they will die but will continue doing the same, my friends wont die. Have you ever seen a wizard running ahead in IC, aggroing the whole room and killing the whole mob army alone, without dying? I have seen that. And IC is the hardest dungeon in the game. Dps are getting everything in this game, they are becoming way strong too fast, and with that they are also becoming more bold. So they wont care because they know that they are strong enough to not die, or they'll have the healer desperately running behind them to keep them alive, otherwise they will start flaming him.
And the thing is, for every 100 things dps will get, tanks will get like 2-3, either be it gear, changes or whatever. And whatever tanks get usually sucks.
The game is just not fun for tanks any more. We have been thrown into a hole and really no one cares. And as i said before, this is why many tanks are leaving the game or changing to dps. And there are even more reasons. And you can see that by the queue timers for dps, or for people trying to find tanks in channel for a long time.
I play all roles up to at least TiC.
Beside some rare bosses, my main Rogue dps doesn't really need any tank/healer doing their job.
Beside some rare bosses my alt Fighter tank doesn't really need any dps/healer doing their job.
Only my alt cleric healer seems to always require someone to take the aggro, be it a tank or a dps, and/or someone dealing real damages, be it a tank or a dps.
I don't feel like i'm disrespected on any role, but maybe it is because I more often than not playing with guildies/allies/friends parties, and when i'm not, i don't expect anything (good or bad) from PUGs.
Probably thats the biggest truth anyone has said in this post so far.
Runs with friends and in guild as nice, smooth, planned, and fun. Add rando's into the mix and you have to expect the HAMSTER you deal with. Some people don't know any better, some just don't care.
Your not wrong in what you say, but most of the replies in here are not wrong either.
With the addition of collars you add encounter damage to yourself which does help with damage based aggro but I suspect an issue with that is with your shield up you can't attack to generate threat and have to rely on taking it BACK from the DPS when it's safe for you to drop it.
Mod 16 was the big rework, Last mod was the big heal rework, can we hope for a tank rework next? It's time!
I do hope for a tank rework. I also hope that with that rework, the game will start giving love to tanks consistently and not once every 10 years. I hope, also, that the game will change in such a way that dps cant just run ahead and murder everything in a couple seconds.
Sadly, i really believe that none of these will happen. Probably ending with even fewer tanks than there are in game now.
As a matter of fact, i just tried to queue up for FBI on my warlock, after 5 mins the queue hadnt popped yet. The moment i got a tank in my group, the queue instantly popped. Sad state for the game.