You're part of the CCP aren't you Sharp?... You have giveaway codes, how exactly did you go about giving your codes away? Did you ever give them away?
I am not a part of the CCP and nor have I ever had codes to give away, but clearly you are not reading the thread. I am not disputing that codes given to you with the purpose of being given away are fine to give away. There are different ways of giving something away however and not all are equal, I am asking which methods of giving something away are fine and which are not.
Furthermore, lets say you did a giveaway of a code handed to you by a developer on Patreon, only available to people who have paid and have access to the prerequisite tier. This is very clearly a trade of money for the code, because if nobody pays to have access to that tier, then the code will not be given away.
All I am asking is, for a clarification of these rules so that everyone knows what is allowed and what is not. I fully expect that giveaways are allowed, but right now it falls into a grey area because it is very clear that it can be used as a method to RMT and there is nothing stating that it is outside of that.
Clearly there are some ways you can "give something away" which constitute as a real money trade and others which do not. All I am asking is, where is the line drawn. If nobody knows where the line is, you can step across the line without knowing it and put your account at risk. For example, if you held a "giveaway" where the first person to donate 100$ wins a mount, that almost definitely counts as RMT.
I was only curious, nothing more.. as there's some who are part of the CCP, who have codes, but no paper trail to show how, when, and where those codes we're given away. I was going to write something here, showing how different types of people do it, was looking to gather more information.
Just curious to, as to why this was brought up now, and not 4, 6, 7 years ago, when people were doing giveaways. When Andy was giving codes away for people to giveaway. But I guess just me.
Edit: added the 2nd paragraph
Nova - Thaumaturge Wizard Bardtholomew - Minstrel Bard Mariah Carries - Devout Cleric Darth Bane - Thaumaturge Wizard on Xbox
You're part of the CCP aren't you Sharp?... You have giveaway codes, how exactly did you go about giving your codes away? Did you ever give them away?
I am not a part of the CCP and nor have I ever had codes to give away, but clearly you are not reading the thread. I am not disputing that codes given to you with the purpose of being given away are fine to give away. There are different ways of giving something away however and not all are equal, I am asking which methods of giving something away are fine and which are not.
Furthermore, lets say you did a giveaway of a code handed to you by a developer on Patreon, only available to people who have paid and have access to the prerequisite tier. This is very clearly a trade of money for the code, because if nobody pays to have access to that tier, then the code will not be given away.
All I am asking is, for a clarification of these rules so that everyone knows what is allowed and what is not. I fully expect that giveaways are allowed, but right now it falls into a grey area because it is very clear that it can be used as a method to RMT and there is nothing stating that it is outside of that.
Clearly there are some ways you can "give something away" which constitute as a real money trade and others which do not. All I am asking is, where is the line drawn. If nobody knows where the line is, you can step across the line without knowing it and put your account at risk. For example, if you held a "giveaway" where the first person to donate 100$ wins a mount, that almost definitely counts as RMT.
I was only curious, nothing more.. as there's some who are part of the CCP, who have codes, but no paper trail to show how, when, and where those codes we're given away. I was going to write something here, showing how different types of people do it, was looking to gather more information.
Just curious to, as to why this was brought up now, and not 4, 6, 7 years ago, when people were doing giveaways. When Andy was giving codes away for people to giveaway. But I guess just me.
Edit: added the 2nd paragraph
It was something I have been meaning to bring up for a long time actually, but I have never got around to doing it. What prompted me to ask what the comment about Chris endorsing sub only giveaways, which sounds like it has official support as a valid form of giveaway.
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited September 2020
Why it is so hard to grasp that giveaways on their own are not the issue, not 7 years ago, nor now.
The topic of discussion is not exclusively CCP codes, not about the codes, nor limited to the codes. Or for the thousand time I saw people comment about this and still... The topic at large IS NOT ABOUT THE CODES.
The topic is simple:
Giving away game items (as in, for example, your farmed enchantments) for various levels of direct or indirect monetary gain, for example people who donated on paypal.
To try and explain, here is a hypothetical scenario: What is conecptual difference between a person selling legendary packs for real money and lets say a discord community admin doing a 'raffle' of 10 Legendary packs to only people who donated them 50$ or more.
Or lets say a veteran player want to quit the game and does a raffle of all their items for only people who buy raffle tickets for 5$ each. Is there an issue with it?
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited September 2020
Pretty much what Janne said above.
Another not so minor other related point would be that subscriber only giveaways can be argued to be gambling. The reason for this is, people who subscribe to someone only to be entered into the giveaway are paying for a chance to win an item. There is no guarantee they win said item. With the EU's stance on minors and gambling this may be a problem as well.
Here are some links regarding the legality of it in the terms of it constituting a lottery:
A minor other related point would be that subscriber only giveaways can be argued to be gambling. The reason for this is, people who subscribe to someone only to be entered into the giveaway are paying for a chance to win an item. There is no guarantee they win said item. With the EU's stance on minors and gambling this may be a problem as well. Here is a link on the topic.
The problem is you have asked a loaded question. The only fact that exists is our own experiences. We now have dozens of persons from different countries thinking about dozens of entirely different activities. Some are arguing legality, some ethics, some morality, some idealism, and some justification.
The OP question mentioned morality. Belief is key to morality. If you believe you are doing something wrong, in your own opinion, its immoral. If someone else believes you are doing something wrong, it is immoral in their opinion. There are some universal standards that people share regarding morality, however. Our intent is important, as is the perception of the intent of others.
I think the question you are really asking.. is what is the best ethical stance on trading stuff in a virtual environment, when that stuff may be owned by multiple interested parties. There is no quick answer. There are thousands of different versions of this activity that are unique. That's why i say in the end... legal does not mean its OK, it just means its legal. In my opinion one should not engage in a promotional practice that they question the morality or ethics of, or that an amount of others do, without obtaining the permission of parties involved, even if that permission is not required.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
A minor other related point would be that subscriber only giveaways can be argued to be gambling. The reason for this is, people who subscribe to someone only to be entered into the giveaway are paying for a chance to win an item. There is no guarantee they win said item. With the EU's stance on minors and gambling this may be a problem as well. Here is a link on the topic.
The problem is you have asked a loaded question. The only fact that exists is our own experiences. We now have dozens of persons from different countries thinking about dozens of entirely different activities. Some are arguing legality, some ethics, some morality, some idealism, and some justification.
The OP question mentioned morality. Belief is key to morality. If you believe you are doing something wrong, in your own opinion, its immoral. If someone else believes you are doing something wrong, it is immoral in their opinion. There are some universal standards that people share regarding morality, however. Our intent is important, as is the perception of the intent of others.
I think the question you are really asking.. is what is the best ethical stance on trading stuff in a virtual environment, when that stuff may be owned by multiple interested parties. There is no quick answer. There are thousands of different versions of this activity that are unique. That's why i say in the end... legal does not mean its OK, it just means its legal. In my opinion one should not engage in a promotional practice that they question the morality or ethics of, or that an amount of others do, without obtaining the permission of parties involved, even if that permission is not required.
I knew when I was initially making the post someone would probably comment about this, but I couldn't think of a better title at the time. All I personally care about is, what is allowed and what is not allowed. My personal stance on this is that any giveaway where you do not charge participants to enter is ok, but my personal opinion isn't what determines whether or not someone is banned, so I thought to clarify.
What's wrong with wanting to support the people who have supported you?
I would try to stop thinking about the giveaway as a way of people trying to sell subs and try to think of it as a way of wanting to give back something to the people who have already given you so much. It's a way of saying thank you. Unfortunately someone who has more than 5-10 subs isn't going to be able to give something to everyone, so a raffle is really the only way to give every a chance.
I run my guild raffles the exact same way. Make a donation to enter Occasionally during events like siege of Neverwinter we run a farm to win style contest where whoever donated the most wins.
Much like the twitch giveaways and whatnot it's optional and nobody is obligated to enter.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
What's wrong with wanting to support the people who have supported you? I would try to stop thinking about the giveaway as a way of people trying to sell subs and try to think of it as a way of wanting to give back something to the people who have already given you so much. It's a way of saying thank you.
For some people sure, but its difficult to prove intent. Just because most people are not intentionally misusing a system does not mean that it cannot be misused. Its much better to have clear rules from the outset (which is all I am asking for) then unclear rules which could result in a ban.
Unfortunately someone who has more than 5-10 subs isn't going to be able to give something to everyone, so a raffle is really the only way to give every a chance.
If someone is hosting giveaways only for subscribers, then there is incentive for people to subscribe. If even one person subscribed solely because there is a chance they can win something, then not only is it a real money trade (money was exchanged for the chance of winning a virtual item) but it is also technically unregulated gambling, as I pointed out in those links above.
In fact, what those links above also point out is that it is probably illegal in many countries, even though it isn't something which is often enforced. In Twitch's terms of service in the section labelled User content (possibly section 8, but I don't want to argue about section numbers again), there is subsection D on Promotions which states the following:
Users may promote, administer, or conduct a promotion (e.g., a contest or sweepstakes) on, through, or utilizing the Twitch Services (a “Promotion”). If you choose to promote, administer, or conduct a Promotion, you must adhere to the following rules: (1) You may carry out Promotions to the extent permitted by applicable law and you are solely responsible for ensuring that any Promotions comply with any and all applicable laws, obligations, and restrictions; (2) You will be classified as the promoter of your Promotion in the applicable jurisdiction(s) and you will be solely responsible for all aspects of and expenses related to your Promotion, including without limitation the execution, administration, and operation of the Promotion; drafting and posting any official rules; selecting winners; issuing prizes; and obtaining all necessary third-party permissions and approvals, including without limitation filing any and all necessary registrations and bonds. Twitch has the right to remove your Promotion from the Twitch Services if Twitch reasonably believes that your Promotion does not comply with the Terms of Service or applicable law; (3) Twitch is not responsible for and does not endorse or support any such Promotions. You may not indicate that Twitch is a sponsor or co-sponsor of the Promotion; and (4) You will display or read out the following disclaimer when promoting, administering, or conducting a Promotion: “This is a promotion by [Your Name]. Twitch does not sponsor or endorse this promotion and is not responsible for it.”.
Which is very much saying, "if the contest you are holding is illegal in your country, it is in violation of our terms of service." Sweepstakes is the technical term for a giveaway. Point 4 is also amusing, because I have never seen an influencer do so when holding a giveaway on twitch.
I run my guild raffles the exact same way. Make a donation to enter Occasionally during events like siege of Neverwinter we run a farm to win style contest where whoever donated the most wins. Much like the twitch giveaways and whatnot it's optional and nobody is obligated to enter.
Great, but you are comparing apples to oranges here. Here are some reasons:
You are not hosting your giveaway on an external platform and you gain no monetary compensation, either directly in the form of money, or indirectly through ads ran on a channel.
People are not entering by spending real world money, they are entering by providing virtual items.
I know I'm a bit late with this comment been out (covid and all) but what does it matter, this is a game. If the person is promoting the game, their guild or alliance, giveaways or raffles should be fine. Everything to promote this game is good. Why do we always have to find fault with things when there are so many other important issues in this game. I feel what they are doing is important for the game and players. Now give me the mad mail because this is my opinion.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,223Arc User
I know I'm a bit late with this comment been out (covid and all) but what does it matter, this is a game. If the person is promoting the game, their guild or alliance, giveaways or raffles should be fine. Everything to promote this game is good. Why do we always have to find fault with things when there are so many other important issues in this game. I feel what they are doing is important for the game and players. Now give me the mad mail because this is my opinion.
The issue is it could be used to earn money without promoting the game. It is not about finding fault. It is about what the guide line of using promotion material is. Good person can step over without knowing it even with good faith. Bad person can take advantage of something that is not meant to be. That can eventually become a toxic situation when the promotion material is supposed to be good to the game. I am not saying anyone has done that or will do that. However, a guideline and direction is to prevent mis-use of something which is meant for good intention.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Comments
Just curious to, as to why this was brought up now, and not 4, 6, 7 years ago, when people were doing giveaways. When Andy was giving codes away for people to giveaway. But I guess just me.
Edit: added the 2nd paragraph
Bardtholomew - Minstrel Bard
Mariah Carries - Devout Cleric
Darth Bane - Thaumaturge Wizard on Xbox
Discord ◆ Youtube ◆ Twitter ◆ Twitch
The topic of discussion is not exclusively CCP codes, not about the codes, nor limited to the codes. Or for the thousand time I saw people comment about this and still... The topic at large IS NOT ABOUT THE CODES.
The topic is simple:
Giving away game items (as in, for example, your farmed enchantments) for various levels of direct or indirect monetary gain, for example people who donated on paypal.
To try and explain, here is a hypothetical scenario: What is conecptual difference between a person selling legendary packs for real money and lets say a discord community admin doing a 'raffle' of 10 Legendary packs to only people who donated them 50$ or more.
Or lets say a veteran player want to quit the game and does a raffle of all their items for only people who buy raffle tickets for 5$ each. Is there an issue with it?
Another not so minor other related point would be that subscriber only giveaways can be argued to be gambling. The reason for this is, people who subscribe to someone only to be entered into the giveaway are paying for a chance to win an item. There is no guarantee they win said item. With the EU's stance on minors and gambling this may be a problem as well.
Here are some links regarding the legality of it in the terms of it constituting a lottery:
The OP question mentioned morality. Belief is key to morality. If you believe you are doing something wrong, in your own opinion, its immoral. If someone else believes you are doing something wrong, it is immoral in their opinion. There are some universal standards that people share regarding morality, however. Our intent is important, as is the perception of the intent of others.
I think the question you are really asking.. is what is the best ethical stance on trading stuff in a virtual environment, when that stuff may be owned by multiple interested parties. There is no quick answer. There are thousands of different versions of this activity that are unique. That's why i say in the end... legal does not mean its OK, it just means its legal. In my opinion one should not engage in a promotional practice that they question the morality or ethics of, or that an amount of others do, without obtaining the permission of parties involved, even if that permission is not required.
I would try to stop thinking about the giveaway as a way of people trying to sell subs and try to think of it as a way of wanting to give back something to the people who have already given you so much. It's a way of saying thank you.
Unfortunately someone who has more than 5-10 subs isn't going to be able to give something to everyone, so a raffle is really the only way to give every a chance.
I run my guild raffles the exact same way. Make a donation to enter
Occasionally during events like siege of Neverwinter we run a farm to win style contest where whoever donated the most wins.
Much like the twitch giveaways and whatnot it's optional and nobody is obligated to enter.
In fact, what those links above also point out is that it is probably illegal in many countries, even though it isn't something which is often enforced. In Twitch's terms of service in the section labelled User content (possibly section 8, but I don't want to argue about section numbers again), there is subsection D on Promotions which states the following: Which is very much saying, "if the contest you are holding is illegal in your country, it is in violation of our terms of service." Sweepstakes is the technical term for a giveaway. Point 4 is also amusing, because I have never seen an influencer do so when holding a giveaway on twitch. Great, but you are comparing apples to oranges here. Here are some reasons:
It is not about finding fault. It is about what the guide line of using promotion material is.
Good person can step over without knowing it even with good faith.
Bad person can take advantage of something that is not meant to be. That can eventually become a toxic situation when the promotion material is supposed to be good to the game.
I am not saying anyone has done that or will do that. However, a guideline and direction is to prevent mis-use of something which is meant for good intention.