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The Morality of Item Giveaways and Raffles:
thefabricant
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
Just recently I saw the following discussion which raised some concerns for me:
Whilst the discussion there raised some interesting points, I have my own concerns which are a little bit different. Now item Giveaways and Raffles have been in the community for a very long time and come in various forms, here are some examples.
If it does constitute real world money trading in the form of money laundering, then this is a violation of section 11.2 m of the game's terms of service which clearly states the following:
Others like BDO for example, do not. What is important here though is not how other games handle it, but how NW handles it and in my opinion, it should be something that is clarified in the form of a giveaway policy. There are a fairly large number of NW content creators who do actively do this and whether or not it is something which is classified as RMT is something which should be known up front, as if I was to do something similar, I would not want to risk my account in the process.
Whilst the discussion there raised some interesting points, I have my own concerns which are a little bit different. Now item Giveaways and Raffles have been in the community for a very long time and come in various forms, here are some examples.
- A player does a giveaway on YouTube where commenting on the video enters you into a Raffle.
- A player does a giveaway on Twitch where commenting a specific word enters you into a Raffle.
- A player does a giveaway on Twitch where commenting a specific word enters you into a Raffle, on the condition that you are subscribed.
- A player does a Raffle on their platform of choice where paying X amount of AD enters them into the Raffle for the item or code.
- A player does a Raffle on their platform of choice where paying X amount of real world money enters them into the Raffle for the item or code.
If it does constitute real world money trading in the form of money laundering, then this is a violation of section 11.2 m of the game's terms of service which clearly states the following:
Some games with similar policies do in fact treat in game item giveaways done via Twitch streams or YouTube as real money trading, here is an example.11.2 Without limiting the foregoing, in addition to the User Content rules set forth in Section 16, you agree not to take any of the following actions:
m. trade, sell, auction or otherwise transfer any virtual items or goods of any nature outside the game;
Others like BDO for example, do not. What is important here though is not how other games handle it, but how NW handles it and in my opinion, it should be something that is clarified in the form of a giveaway policy. There are a fairly large number of NW content creators who do actively do this and whether or not it is something which is classified as RMT is something which should be known up front, as if I was to do something similar, I would not want to risk my account in the process.
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Comments
IMO, anything that promotes the monetary success of the game is good as long as:
It does not devalue gameplay or currency.
It does not involve any monetary transactions.
No game exploits, hacking, or gold selling activities are occurring.
It does not involve cryptic unless they are in control or providing express consent.
On one hand there is no harm in someone wanting to thanks subscribers by doing subs only giveaway or even increase the subs by enticing more people. On the other it is something easy to abuse, by de-facto RMT, "weekly subs only rank 15 giveaway" and in practice this is selling game items.
Intentions are very hard to asses, one can have the best intentions, and another the opposite while doing the same actions.
I guess this is more of an issue for larger games with more money turnover for both streamers, and youtubers and the game itself. Though there is a long standing issue in NW of RMT in various means (and so there is no misunderstanding I'm not accusing streamers or youtubers).
Also you cut it off at a point where normally the more specifics and exceptions would be named.
And quoting an other game's mail (which is most of the time also forbidden) doesn't mean s***, it is cryptic's/PWE's rules not someone elses.
https://www.arcgames.com/en/about/terms
Though if we talk about ToS, I would say this is the more relevant part:
this is article 11 there
If you are going to be a rule enforcer, use the right quotations, because, if you don't your whole story is irrelevant to the rules sections you quote, because those don't exist.
Furthermore, that rule is stated in multiple places with different wordings, I just picked the shortest one which illustrates the same point. If you want another example, you could go with section 19.1 as @micky1p00 pointed out as well, which says the same thing, or section 20.2 (or whatever it is called in your country) which is along similar lines. Here is a screenshot of that, for your convenience.
20. Mobile Software
are shown to me.
This means one thing... referring to "the ToS" can't be done. Because with all these variables, you can't say one or one of the others is true.
A nasty technicallity.
(the ToS I get shown is from "Perfect World Publishing BV" My guess yours (and others) could be from other legal entities)
And that was what caused me to reply.
And second, content creators have an completely different contract with the publisher too (with their own rules of conduct)
Also creators are given those codes by a person that represents the company, with the special task to give them away. (again, under an extra set of rule for the content creators), that part alone implies consent.
On top of whatever other (game)developers do, have rules, those have zero connections with what this set of game, creator, publisher say or do.
If you start trying to use rules to get your vision enforced, start with making sure you have all info, and especially be extreme careful with partial quotes.
Furthermore, lets say you did a giveaway of a code handed to you by a developer on Patreon, only available to people who have paid and have access to the prerequisite tier. This is very clearly a trade of money for the code, because if nobody pays to have access to that tier, then the code will not be given away.
All I am asking is, for a clarification of these rules so that everyone knows what is allowed and what is not. I fully expect that giveaways are allowed, but right now it falls into a grey area because it is very clear that it can be used as a method to RMT and there is nothing stating that it is outside of that.
Here it is:
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1252413/content-creator-program-rules-of-conduct
And the first thing there is:
There is also relevant part at the end, but I don't want to spam screenshots here. This indeed implies permission, and while the ToS requires explicit and not implicit permission, this will be nitpicking as it is obvious the codes are meant to be given away. This is not the question at all.
The question is the return for said giveaway.
For easier framing, lets frame this in the following way:
Are we allowed, as players, to make raffles to paying patrons only. (via patreon site for example)
For even easier concept, lets remove the codes as those not really relevant, and take personal items, lets say some enchantments or legendary pack or whatever, bought by the player in game.
I don't see anyone enforcing anything. The only one who can enforce are ofc the devs (in general, if it's PWE, Cryptic or whomever). No forum post stops anyone from doing any giveaway. Nor any players have any 'power' to force anything, only opinions, discussions and interpretations.
11.2 Without limiting the foregoing, in addition to the User Content rules set forth in Section 16, you agree not to take any of the following actions:
m. trade, sell, auction or otherwise transfer any virtual items or goods of any nature outside the game
The page you are showing in the screen shot is their privacy policy.
Have fun!
https://www.arcgames.com/en/about/terms
One is from "Perfect World Entertainment, Inc. (“PWE”)" (sharpedge's) the other from "Perfect World Publishing BV" (mine)
Which have a quite different structure and different formulations. Both are from the same URL and same link on the forum page
Also, I like turtles.
https://www.arcgames.com/en/about/terms
Though if tomorrow morning I'll VPN to EU and see that it's a ctrl+f issue, that will be a waste of everyone time..
Not that this is the point.
Obviously the following examples are not allowed (even if x is a code btw!):
- [Twitch] First person to subscribe will get item x
- 'Donate' y to get item x
This would practically be the same as selling x for money.
The point is where is the line? Subscriber only giveaways in general, is this ok? We just need an official statement of what we can and can't do to prevent getting into trouble at some point, because right now this is very much a grey area.
Twitch
Patreon
You have giveaway codes, how exactly did you go about giving your codes away? Did you ever give them away?
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That argument can be extended towards subscriber only giveaways. If you have no subscribers and you hold a subscriber only giveaway on Twitch, the only way for someone to win it, is for someone to subscribe for you. Therefor there is a direct correlation between someone giving you money and you giving them the item. Likewise, its pretty clear that if people know that giveaways for subs only, there is an incentive for them to subscribe and as a result you can say they are "paying for a chance to win something."