test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
State of healing from the point of view of normal mmos
dolrey
Member Posts: 741 Arc User
Hello.
From mod 5-6 till mod 16 we had tons of protection buffs so all team was just immune to damage.
From mod 16 till mod 19 we had 100% hp shields so all team just does not lose health in most of situations.
And after fix of all of these broken things we see a lot of complaints about this fix. But wait. Put your head out of this game and go look how healing in all other mmos works. It works exactly how it works in NWO after healing nerf in m19. And it is fine for everyone.
I understand that after 6-7 years of immortality 99% of dds are lazy and don't understand even the basics of how dd should act without op immune buffs or 100% shields.
No it is not flaming just let me to list few things and you will find out that you see them in 99% of your PvE runs:
1) 99% of NWO dds rush forward before tank
2) 99% of NWO dds start dealing damage before tank used his aggro skills
3) 99% of NWO dds don't dodge red zones/aoes/strong hits
4) 99% of NWO dds stay near tank so they take damage from aoe
Why they do all this? Because they had 6 years of op protection when you just was not able to die no matter what you do.
Why in other mmos dds don't do this? Because they have normal mechanics of healing and team protection. And they never ever had such broken things that we had for years.
So I very very hope that developers will not bring back 100% health shields etc. And if you have troubles with taking high damage on your dd then first thing you have to understand is that you as dd must not take damage at all. It is job of your tank and let him do it.
Here are some evident for all other mmos things but surprisingly not trivial for NWO dds:
1) DO NOT rush before tank!!
2) DO NOT start dealing damage before tank used his aggro skills
3) dodge red zones/aoes/strong hits
4) DO NOT stay near tank to don't take damage from aoe
Check that you do all points of this list and you will find out that healers have enough healing in m19. Because 90% of your deaths are your own mistakes in positioning. You are not immortal terminator you are squishy dd with high damage. Don't forget this.
____
Ps: and if your tank dies without 100% hp shields then you just have bad tank.
From mod 5-6 till mod 16 we had tons of protection buffs so all team was just immune to damage.
From mod 16 till mod 19 we had 100% hp shields so all team just does not lose health in most of situations.
And after fix of all of these broken things we see a lot of complaints about this fix. But wait. Put your head out of this game and go look how healing in all other mmos works. It works exactly how it works in NWO after healing nerf in m19. And it is fine for everyone.
I understand that after 6-7 years of immortality 99% of dds are lazy and don't understand even the basics of how dd should act without op immune buffs or 100% shields.
No it is not flaming just let me to list few things and you will find out that you see them in 99% of your PvE runs:
1) 99% of NWO dds rush forward before tank
2) 99% of NWO dds start dealing damage before tank used his aggro skills
3) 99% of NWO dds don't dodge red zones/aoes/strong hits
4) 99% of NWO dds stay near tank so they take damage from aoe
Why they do all this? Because they had 6 years of op protection when you just was not able to die no matter what you do.
Why in other mmos dds don't do this? Because they have normal mechanics of healing and team protection. And they never ever had such broken things that we had for years.
So I very very hope that developers will not bring back 100% health shields etc. And if you have troubles with taking high damage on your dd then first thing you have to understand is that you as dd must not take damage at all. It is job of your tank and let him do it.
Here are some evident for all other mmos things but surprisingly not trivial for NWO dds:
1) DO NOT rush before tank!!
2) DO NOT start dealing damage before tank used his aggro skills
3) dodge red zones/aoes/strong hits
4) DO NOT stay near tank to don't take damage from aoe
Check that you do all points of this list and you will find out that healers have enough healing in m19. Because 90% of your deaths are your own mistakes in positioning. You are not immortal terminator you are squishy dd with high damage. Don't forget this.
____
Ps: and if your tank dies without 100% hp shields then you just have bad tank.
Post edited by dolrey on
11
Comments
The rough summary is that even if there eventually will be found a perfect balance between incoming damage and healer's potential, the game experience for healers will stay quite frustrating.
Capable healers will slowly became some really rare representatives of a rather endangered species... and all those healer place-holders in RQ will be even more useless then they were up till now.
I think while the healers got a pretty heavy blow to their output, what really matters is that technically unpopular role suffered a huge blow into playability.
The inventive idea that if something is a niche area, making it rather difficult will surely lure people in... usually does not pay off.
Because I didn't know other MMOs had this terrible single ally targeting system NW has.
I also didn't know that, in other MMOs, the AoE heals like Bastion of Health were more efficient to heal a single person than the mechanics designed to heal a single person (like Tab).
I also didn't know that endgame dungeons and trials like IC and ToMM could easily be run without any healer at all in the same expansion they were released in other MMOs. I could swear this was a "NW exclusive".
I also didn't know that in other MMOs the healer does absolutely nothing except casting useless at-wills when no healing is needed, because even basic resource management was deemed "to difficult".
It seems the MMO genre really is in a bad state, huh? At least for healers.
I do play healer and i am not BiS.
In other MMOs the game usually goes slow and the healers have more than just 7 powers (like 20+ in some), which can use when they want and not worry thanks to mana potions. And even have powers to REVIVE team members. And even can target allies with only clicking on their portrait.
NW is a fast action game, with NOTHING like that.
1) Even if the dps wait for the tank and avoid the red, there are aoe dmgs that are invisible in a fight against mobs, bosses or phases.
2) There are bugs that won't let you see some red floors or if the person had lag for a moment, can get nearly one shoted. Or make the boss ignore the aggro of the tank and start attacking others.
3) Even with a good team, human errors happen and at those times, aoe heals are bad cuz you need to spam them.
Lets take Soulweaver as example here:
Suppouse its worm, second phase and for the cc of the robots 4 or 5 rocks made it to the center. I use my daily and then Soulstorm (there goes 220 soulweave), the heal can't keep with the shocks, the robots and the falling stones, so i spam revitalize (aoe with less effectiveness the more ppl). I keep them alive the basic charges but now i need to figure out how to keep them alive the rest even if they use hpstones. They will die. After the first soulstorm i got down to 780 soulweave and need to use Revitalize (100 soulweave) for 4-5 extra charges of 3-4 hits each cuz its a "fast heal" and not over time. Can't keep up cuz i can't heal them well nor have an alternative to fast restore soulweave as IN OTHER MMOS.
4) Aoe healing is the only "reliable" power you have most of the times due that single targeting here is bad. In other MMOs you just click the portrait and thats it.
5) In other MMOs healers have extra effects with their heals, like buffs. Here, no (at least soulweaver).
I can agree that the buffs and blue bars needed to go, i can even agree that a nerf was needed. But i will not agree that this was the nerf we needed nor that NW is the SAME as other MMOs. And i know that cuz i played other before comming here and was searching for someone like this when i gor tired of getting rejected for ToMM just cuz i was a soulweaver.
Soulweaver: The Lovely Red
Minstrel: The Rose Troubadour
As i said, i agree with getting rid of the blue bars, but bring everyone down when they only needed to reduce the mag of the shield its not a solution. Most healers are starters or were getting enough stats to complete some elite dungs and trials with less struggle. While there are some that were already good enough to complete IC and ToMM with none to less problems, the rest (mayority) got screw by this.
I repeat, the nerf was necesary, but not of this magnitude. 2 days before the nerf, the changes they did and the rework of the warlock were good enough to keep a party carefull of red areas and everything else.
They made this nerf to "reduce" the gap between the OP, DC and SW.. But actually made it worst.
Every healer works different, everyone has different kits.. The nerf was made in general and not taking into account the kits.
As i saw, the only thing in common every healer has is the at-will with 250-275 mag.
If we at least could have our bar visible as the tanks, it would be helpfull.
And with all my respect (and trust me, i don't mean to offend), a non healer saying this kind of things its like if tanks get heavy nerfed and a non tank say "pff, all you gotta do is press shift".
A little humor just in case my last line was taken bad:
I ran with this barbi and 3 of his guild in a pug Tong. Dude kept going ahead (and i could easily catch him to help him), and get recked every single time. When we got to Orcus, he kept going ahead but this time i follow him and watched him die:
Barbie: Why the *censored* didn't you heal me?
Me: Have potions or stones?
B: Yes.
M: Use them.
B: Your job as healer is keep me alive so i don't use them!
M: My job as healer is keep alive the team in fights, bosses and sometimes fix errors, your ego for top paingiver doesn't enter there, and less if you don't respect your team.
The only one that supported me there was the tank (i like tanks cuz they understand the preasure), but either way i got kicked after the 15 min lol.
Soulweaver: The Lovely Red
Minstrel: The Rose Troubadour
Since mod 6, every unmitigated attackf rom a boss is a one-shot kill.
Most unmitigated hits from trash mobs in epic content are one-shot kills.
Rangers, in particular, are cursed with a tiny dodge that has never been big enough to get out of AoE effects.
So they have to dodge twice as much.
But they have no stamina regeneration unless using the otherwise useless Steel Breeze.
And of course canceling attack animations to dodge is now impossible.
And a lot of the time, bosses basically ignore the tank and turn wherever they feel like.
So without fixing all those other issues, and similar ones, the healing nerf is. a. terrible. idea.
From mods 2-5 (I wasn't around for mod 1) players had to avoid red zones, but if they screwed up once it wasn't an instant death and therefore a fail for the entire party, because the game made enough sense to be enjoyable, and not every hit form a boss would kill a player, and the player could back off, drink a healing potion, maybe ask for some heals.
Since mod 6, everything happens too fast, mobs move at warp speed, stat and HP creep is out of control, and lately the rug gets pulled from under our builds every few months. So I'm not interested in rebuilding again just to take 3-5 times as long to get my daily AD. So the healing nerf is a terrible idea.
And I'm really not interested in content like TOMM, which is already boring beyond belief with its endless, repetitive mechanics, becoming even more tedious. So the healing nerf is a terrible idea.
The dev team has a long history of throwing one big switch to break the game, "collecting data" for months before fixing all the problems it causes, and all the while ignoring player concerns. I'm tired of it. And the healing nerf is a terrible idea.
The introduction of the Paladin was arguably the worst thing to hit this game, from the early days where it would grant the entire party full immunity to the absurd temp hit points, this made creating challenging and balanced dungeons close to impossible.
1. I can run all content except Tomm as of now, without any healer. IC I can solo first two bosses as a tank, third I can use damage reductions during chains surviving with just enough and instantly be full health with a health stone use. Why nerf healers so badly when they already basically end up unneeded?
2. Look at your trade bar store and tell me honestly you think they nerfed healers for the benefit of bridging the gap for healers
3. I've played plenty of other MMOs, mained healer every single one, in NW? nope. That's just a frustrating mess that no matter how much I tried, its not fun.
Its clear their hope for re-working everything all at once was to make it so they can claim they didn't know the nerf was so bad, getting us stuck wasting 100k AD, our daily refine limit, on health stones, removing as much AD as possible and removing trade bars as much as possible, while seeing higher fail rates in dungeons, because oh boy, that lovely rough AD from my 10th run in a row and finally a green companion that sells for 3k is way too much to give out.
Do we need Blue bars? Nope, I can tank 8-9 stacks in tomm without it as tank and live without bars as dps. Do we need healers to feel useful and not just sitting around waiting for their divinity/soulweave to come back? Yeah, because now they're stuck with less to do and now less needed in content.
Nope. Removal of those items will not make healers desirable, just will split the content into two categories: healer not needed/unplayable for everyone. ATM no healer can carry a party without potions and healt stones in a rough content.
In mod18 we still could have a sense of satisfaction after healing someone with very low HP to half or even full HP with 1 or two healing spells. Now we heal less than a healing potion even when it crits and have to rely on buggy single target heals that take a year to cast to make any difference.
Yes, the healing mechanics needed to be balanced but just like every time they change the game, they apparently have the best intentions but implement it in the worst possible way.
To all the rest of you, grow up, it is just a game. You can either cry in your beer or dance with the hustler. Have fun!
1) You're talking from your own perspective as a tank, and exaggerating wildly the behaviours you mention. Maybe "just let your tank do everything" works for you, maybe you're a great tank. Maybe your teams behave the way you say they do ("99% always do X"). Your experience isn't the game experience. There are lots of inadequate tanks, lots of situations where the DPS has to pour on as much damage as they can, lots of situations where a healer has to heal 2-3 people quickly who aren't conveniently grouped for AoEs. If the game doesn't support these situations, it's a case of bad game design, not a case "Healing is fine, just let your tank fix it all".
2) You're making the same design mistake that many game companies make. "If we make healing necessary, then players will be forced to play them!". You don't get players into a class by making it a painful-but-required role. You get players into a class by making it interesting and fun to play, and then making sure the role is needed. That's about balancing the flow of combat and matching player powers and targeting to the needs of the game, not tossing in one OP ability and one killer threat to balance the OP ability, then every 2 years changing meta to some new imbalance. Cryptic is just flailing around here addressing one situation at a time rather than balancing the situation.
3) You can't assume all teams are going to have a good tank, or a good healer, and frankly it's a roadblock the game doesn't need to create content that needs balanced parties. Instead of repetitive mechanics that require "solution 24-B" each time, Cryptic needs to have more flexibility in the way challenges can be completed. Failing that, if they require balanced parties, then the tanks and healers need to be as effective and interesting at their role as the DPS are.
- a mark against one shot, in case of one shot the mark will be consumed and protects 10% of the players hp
- protection against fire lets say 30-50%
- protection against stuns
that would give each healer an unique feature and a the possibility to be useful for the group
However, for the healers, the situation is different: things did get more difficult to us, but not due to some mechanic complexities requiring skill, but due to plain nerfs and clunky systems. The changes made our gameplay even less entertaining than it was before. If we take, for instance, the Paladin: good management of Critical Touch was a needed skill before, now just spamming Divine Shelter seems to be a better strategy because Critical Touch is irrelevant and Divine Shelter is cheap. Skillful resource management was also basically thrown out of the window. Not to mention how frustrating fighting the UI with this dreadful "mark" is, and how slow (even slower than before) things feel like.
Don't get me wrong, I love to see dumb DPS die. However these changes made healer gameplay so frustrating and dull that even seeing Barbarians spamming "Help!" in the ground isn't really enough to make things brighter. It feels extremely unfair to me that our gameplay was dumbed down that much to give non-healers like you a more challenging experience. We are not mere objects to make your gameplay better, we are players too and they made our role even less appealing than it was before.
Apparently, you just wanted to make a couple "I play good and you all play bad, haha, jokes on you!" posts.
Carry on.
Skills?
Tank: Press this powers for aggro, keep shift until powers come back up.
DPS: Hit, move, repeat.
Healers Before: Be alert for anything.
Healers Now: Idk, look cute and use some powers so they don't think you are afk.
Played dps here, got bored cuz was repetitive with every class. Played tank here, bored cuz most the times all i do was stand still waiting with every class. Played the three healers and only found fun with the soulweaver. I could move around and actually help while being alert for everything, now all i do is stand there using powers in the hope they wont use healing items or i wont run out of soulweave, so yes, i went from healer to "choose me for a chance to save AD".
If someone of like 20k- IL play "bad", i can get it and teach it what to do, cuz i bet NO ONE took the time to explain what to do.
But if someone of 23k+ IL do mistakes a new player would do, i could wonder if no one took the time to explain what to do or if just was spoiled.. Usually the second.
Read plenty of commets here and in other posts that said "you don't even need a healer to run even the lastests contents", and they are all right. And you dare to say "meh, healing is fine as in any other MMO"?
It's not a matter of "follow this rules and you will be ok", those are basic ground rules and everyone here understand that. The problem here is that you don't want to understand that:
1) Healers now are less usefull than before.
2) Only BiS healers will be good enough for most content.
3) The nerf on healing made the mayority of healers feel all their hard work was a in vain.
4) Human Errors happens and sometimes you might panic and take a while to recover even with healing items.
And wheep? Grow up? God, i hope tanks never get a nerf of this magnitude cuz every single healer that was made fun on the forum will retaliate and the most you will see is "who needs a tank when you can use companions?", cuz do you remember? There was a time when only using tank companions you could run anything. Or the time that full xuna teams beated dungs without moving?
Soulweaver: The Lovely Red
Minstrel: The Rose Troubadour
you cant learn untill you do the content
you cant learn watching from the door or being kicked
with no self healing and no healers the only people who can do the hard dungeons are the elitists
those same people have all the goodies they dont bung $ or £ at the game
those of us that are still trying to be able to do the likes of TOMM (never been there) tic (refuse to go there untill my dps is up)
we are the kind of people who this hurts the most we are also the people who have less to lose when we leave game
we are also the kind of people who pay the devs wages without us the game dies
Most players do not understand or realize that changes that have been made..even when I still tell the team this...I am told by players it will still be my fault. This is the New Neverwinter. *cringe*
Be prepared ladies and gentlemen..this is the new normal of Neverwinter. Expect this out of your pug runs as a healer. No matter how many times I say its a problem, seeing is believing.