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Official M19: Fighter Feedback

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  • abdalonangelabdalonangel Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    @joebot#9387 How are you? So I saw the post https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/11455853-developer-blog:-avernus-class-balance
    and they said that Dreadnought will be the focus to be more competitive, but the only thing you say there was Anvil + Feat, nothing more. Will be more changes?

    Any news about Griphon's Wrath, cast and mag of at wills?

    'The primary goal was to review the paragon paths focused on damage and provide at least one competitive alternative for each class. To do this, we needed to bring up the lowest-performing classes with no alternative in sight: the Hellbringer Warlock and Dreadnought Fighter. While these paragon paths received the most attention, there were other adjustments brought to light by the community we felt necessary to address.'

  • sirkichasirkicha Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    "The Dreadnought Fighter also comes prepared to storm the trenches of Avernus with magnitude increases to most of their powers. The Dreadnought continues to be a steady powerhouse with an onslaught of at-will attacks while weaving in strong encounter powers. With the feat Weight of Vengeance, the Dreadnought can dish out more damage for less vengeance using Anvil of Doom."


    XD


    Cool story bro.

    Honestly, any devs play this game? :D Maybe start play arbiter/assassin and then start dreadnought. Its like driving a Porsche and then driving Kamaz.

    Balance af dear devs. We can put GF dps in the same group like HR Hunter. Of course some people come and talk "OMG I CAN CARRY VALINDRA TOP 1 DMG GF DPS IS BALANCED", but compare your skills & feats to other, better class. For this people - come with good group on ToMM. We must cancel animation on heavy slash to be "mid" tier dps. In the same time arbiter or assassin will do much more dmg. The sad truth is that arbiter/assassin is still the best dps. GWF will get nice buffs, Arcanist is still strong. I don't test Hellbringer so I don't know. And HR, who get nerfs in past and now is mid/low tier. I have no idea how "devs" balance class.

  • sirkichasirkicha Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    "The Dreadnought Fighter also comes prepared to storm the trenches of Avernus with magnitude increases to most of their powers. The Dreadnought continues to be a steady powerhouse with an onslaught of at-will attacks while weaving in strong encounter powers. With the feat Weight of Vengeance, the Dreadnought can dish out more damage for less vengeance using Anvil of Doom."

    XD


    Cool story bro.

    Honestly, any devs play this game? :D Maybe start play arbiter/assassin and then start dreadnought. Its like driving a Porsche and then driving Kamaz.

    Balance af dear devs. We can put GF dps in the same group like HR Hunter. Of course some people come and talk "OMG I CAN CARRY VALINDRA TOP 1 DMG GF DPS IS BALANCED", but compare your skills & feats to other, better class. For this people - come with good group on ToMM. The sad truth is that arbiter/assassin is still the best dps. GWF will get buff, Arcanist is still strong. I don't test Hellbringer so I don't know. And HR, who get nerfs in past and now is mid/low tier. I have no idea how "devs" balance class.

    Players: add good ideas in fighter feedback
    Devs: image
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited June 2020

    @joebot#9387 How are you? So I saw the post https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/11455853-developer-blog:-avernus-class-balance
    and they said that Dreadnought will be the focus to be more competitive, but the only thing you say there was Anvil + Feat, nothing more. Will be more changes?

    Any news about Griphon's Wrath, cast and mag of at wills?

    'The primary goal was to review the paragon paths focused on damage and provide at least one competitive alternative for each class. To do this, we needed to bring up the lowest-performing classes with no alternative in sight: the Hellbringer Warlock and Dreadnought Fighter. While these paragon paths received the most attention, there were other adjustments brought to light by the community we felt necessary to address.'

    I strongly agree here. The changes to Dreadnaught so far make some of the poor choices playable, but not ONE change increases DPS.

    At the least I suggest improving Griffin's Wrath. As a capstone single target skill, it should create more damage in reality than commander's strike which has a good buff going on top of it.

    A small increase to Heavier Slash damage would also help, since the vast majority of players and analysts are calling this a trap feat. Such an increase would help balance the class, so that players who do not or can not use the "Heavy Slash cancelling exploit/technique", have a way to be more competitive with those who do.

    SUGGESTIONS:

    Griffins Wrath: Add the effect... decreases the recharge of your other cooldowns by 2 seconds.

    Heavier Slash: Increase the damage from 300 to 400.



    Overall, Dreadnaught does not have much variety to it. This suggested change to Griffin's Wrath would boost it and provide a little spice. Because it's a long skill to execute, the effect would be easy to interrupt.
    Post edited by zimxero#8085 on
  • deathdealer#5883 deathdealer Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    i never post on here... but 1 year for this? are you serious?

    Not even gonna talk about the fact the class mechanic is meh, the person who design it must have not played the game.

    For how long our cooldowns are, we probably have the worst and weakest at-wills:
    Cleave - there was a reason nobody used it pre mod 16 and there is a reason no one uses it now -- clunky animation+low magnitude = useless at-will
    Brazen slash - i don't even use it because we have heavy slash
    Reave - good animation but meh dmg, you could have used something similar to the warlock and give it higher mag close range and lower at longer range or vice versa
    I know it won't be back but i wish we still had weapon master strike :'(


    Our class features are average at best, the only good one enduring vengeance takes way longer to stack than lets say the one from rangers and take more work to keep it up too, but is totally useless against bosses with stamina drain ex:2nd boss at fbi

    and some of our feats needed some love too

    but all you could come up were this changes???
  • abdalonangelabdalonangel Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    @joebot#9387 , @noworries#8859 any news about fighter? Or the changes will be those already listed here?

    - There was no decrease in time to cast last hit in Griffon's Wrath! Almost 2 sec to cast till back to battle (pls take off this stupid animation)
    - Onlaught of at will? still with 35 of magnitude

    Here a video from preview server with GW 1.950 sec from cast till finalize the animation and hit the dummy

  • cryptic39#8917 cryptic39 Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 77 Cryptic Developer
    rjc9000 said:

    Also, on the subject of Heavier Slash, since someone in the GF discord brought it to my attention:

    Heavier Slash only causes Heavy Slash to deal 300 magnitude damage. Most people, myself included, interpreted the tooltip as Heavier Slash causes your next Heavy Slash to deal an additional 300 mag damage from the base damage, or 435 mag (300+135).


    I am not sure if this is a bug or a poor reading of the feat. In light of this information, I would say that it's safe to say that Heavier Slash is clearly inferior to Weight of Vengeance, whether it is Heavy Slash canceling reasons or for raw damage reasons.

    Therefore, Heavier Slash needs a buff of some form to make it a better feat, whether it is aiming to make the function match the tooltip (give 435 mag Heavier Slash on proc) or take peoples' suggestions for other things Heavier Slash could do.


    The mathematical check is in the spoiler:



    The character used


    The log



    100 x 3.0 x 1.04 = 312.0

    where 100 is the weapon damage, 3.0 is 300 magnitude, and 1.04 is 16 STR (16 * 0.025).
    Thanks you for your report!

    Pretty sure, you're right on this one and it should be 435 mag. This issue is in our database and will be addressed in the future.

    Cryptic39
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,351 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    sirkicha said:

    The Dreadnought continues to be a steady powerhouse with an onslaught of at-will attacks while weaving in strong encounter powers.



    Spoke a little too soon there.
    :P

    For reference, on live, it has a cast time of 1 second per swing if playing by the rules.

    A person perfectly canceling the attack would cast every 0.5 seconds but most players will consistently get 0.6 seconds per swing. If the new Heavy Slash is only a fraction of a second slower than a "perfect" player, that's not a big deal when the change brings up players that don't cancel.

    I also see that the Action Point generation had been adjusted to account for the faster cast time, which brings GF's daily attack generation "in line" with other classes (you get a daily attack around every 50 seconds rather than 40 while canceling).




    12.2792 / 1.05 = 11.6944,
    or ~1.1694% of Action Points per cast.

    Where my AP Gain bonus is 5%, 4% from 16 CON and 1% from Moon Elf bonus.

    On Live, Heavy Slash would generate 1.667% of total Action Points per hit.


    Although this evens the playing field between those who cancel and those who cannot, I am disappointed that players don't need to "work" for this faster Heavy Slash.

    As in: you don't have to get it off a specific feat, or have to time anything to get it, or use any resources to get it. You just hold down the Heavy Slash button and get a free, permanent Blade Hurricane.

    Post edited by rjc9000 on

  • demarw2#2749 demarw2 Member Posts: 70 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    The reduction of Heavy Slashs cast time from 1.0 to 0.7 seconds is a very useful change . Well done devs :). First of all it really increases our damage. But also it forced us to stop using that animation canceling. For me animation canceling is like using a bug. And with these changes, no one needs to cancel the animation of HS anymore. Thats fine. I also feel like the Fighter should be 'in line' with some other dps classes (the worser ones) now. But while discussing cast times: Griffons Wraths third hit has still a very long cast time and a clunky animation . That makes Griffons wrath really unenjoyable to play. It would be nice, if you could look at this animation.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    I understand the hesitation to change Griffons Wrath because it hits for over 1000 damage, but in exchange for the terrible animation speed, a 1 second reduction to the cooldown of other encounter powers when using Griffin's Wrath would be a nice effect. Riccochet is too underpowered at 10% proc chance in order to compare with prepared slams. I recommend bumping this to 20% or removing the stun effect and bumping the refresh proc to 50%. Since Reave was not boosted in any way... this Feat is the only thing that might sway Dreadnaughts to use Reave over Heavy Slash in AoE, because Reave deals less than half the damage of Heavy Slash now.
  • djnasty93djnasty93 Member Posts: 165 Arc User
    Bug : Gf Dps use one Weight Slam (at will) and Tab right after it and can spam more at will witouth the normal casting speed, bot gf dps <--
  • arthurkrieg#7467 arthurkrieg Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    Cancelling animation on consoles is something that is making DPS GF gameplay interesting: You need to train it to master, break couple gamepad sticks, until you will master to do it perfrectly. With removing all advantage from it you are making GF DPS gameplay boring: For best performance all you need is just to have trigger pressed and do encounters on cooldown. Its not fun.
  • arthurkrieg#7467 arthurkrieg Member Posts: 14 Arc User

    I understand the hesitation to change Griffons Wrath because it hits for over 1000 damage, but in exchange for the terrible animation speed, a 1 second reduction to the cooldown of other encounter powers when using Griffin's Wrath would be a nice effect. Riccochet is too underpowered at 10% proc chance in order to compare with prepared slams. I recommend bumping this to 20% or removing the stun effect and bumping the refresh proc to 50%. Since Reave was not boosted in any way... this Feat is the only thing that might sway Dreadnaughts to use Reave over Heavy Slash in AoE, because Reave deals less than half the damage of Heavy Slash now.

    Ricochet is for PVP, man, no need to change it at this moment.

  • spinnytopspinnytop Member Posts: 163 Arc User

    Cancelling animation on consoles is something that is making DPS GF gameplay interesting: You need to train it to master, break couple gamepad sticks, until you will master to do it perfrectly. With removing all advantage from it you are making GF DPS gameplay boring: For best performance all you need is just to have trigger pressed and do encounters on cooldown. Its not fun.

    You shouldn't need to have gimmicks like cancel-spamming to make playing a class fun.
  • arthurkrieg#7467 arthurkrieg Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    spinnytop said:

    Cancelling animation on consoles is something that is making DPS GF gameplay interesting: You need to train it to master, break couple gamepad sticks, until you will master to do it perfrectly. With removing all advantage from it you are making GF DPS gameplay boring: For best performance all you need is just to have trigger pressed and do encounters on cooldown. Its not fun.

    You shouldn't need to have gimmicks like cancel-spamming to make playing a class fun.
    On PC - maybe. As a console player, I'd like to share how it works for us:

    You need to press stick, to activate shield, and need to press stick again, to deactivate shield.
    If you Press at-will trigger too long, after shielding another at-will will start, which is not able to be cancelled
    if you been knocked/stunned during the fight, you can find yourself within shielded state, not knowing about it, because "unshield" button do not work during stun. You can start pressing encounters, that will not work
    if you use halaster set, you can accidently move character, while pressing stick, because to shield you need press same stick, that is responsible for movement.

    in total, you need to learn timings of at-will, shield up, shield down without moving character around, while pressing the stick, and any fail will cause your character to skip damage dealing phase of attack or start at-will, start shielded at-will, that cannot be cancelled or move character away from combat advantage zone. unfortunately devs did not designed PVE build in a way, that player have to precisely watch vengeance gauge, cause in BIS build its always full, but fortunately that bug makes this class gameplay requiring some more skills than just smashing encounter buttons, until cooldown comes.

    As I told before, enduring vengeance is killing this class build diversity for PVE. All other manitpulations would not give you more dps than flat 5% from it.





  • demarw2#2749 demarw2 Member Posts: 70 Arc User
    Has somebody tested the reduction of Heavy Slashs cast time? Because in the patch notes I can't read that the cast time is reduced. There is only a different description, that confused my a bit. Is animation canceling still possible? I am on PS4, so I can't test...
  • withoutname#9673 withoutname Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    Has anyone witnessed the issue that while you re trying to use Heavy Slash you keep moving around like Michael Jackson did his moonwalk? - its totally annoying and its a mix of "To cast or not to cast" lol.......seems like the skill doesnt work properly with the reduced cast time ---> everything but fluid.
    Post edited by withoutname#9673 on
  • abdalonangelabdalonangel Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    Any news about class balance? GW with last hit of 1 sec, or less, or better turn GW in a single hit (will be like Frenzy from Barbies 75 mag difference).

    @joebot#9387 any word about it?

  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    Deleted by OP. see below instead.
    Post edited by zimxero#8085 on
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    Assessment of Dreadnought after Mod 19
    image

    There are 2 changes that I'd consider a priority for Dreadnought:

    1) Reaving - Increase magnitude from 45 to 55.
    The Reave skill activates at .50 seconds, not .40 as stated. If I exclusively use Reaving at-will, I am unable to make it constitute 10% of damage. Heavy Slash always hits over 10% of damage every ACT test. In order to make the Heavier Slash and Riccochet Feats worth doing... it would certainly help. This change would help all builds, but would increase overall damage by about 1%.

    2) Shield Throw - suggest increasing magnitude from 350 to 380.
    Using the new Riccochet feat instead of Prepared Slam feat results in about a 2% overall DPS loss. Increasing the magnitude of Shield Throw will help out Riccochet users and tanks. At 380, the skill is not overpowered. A similar skill is Shadowknife Impact Shot, which has about an 8 second recharge and deals 450 magnitude.

    Here are some other suggestions to consider, but I don't consider them vital to class balance:

    Anvil of Doom - Increase magnitude of the basic skill from 680 to 720. The skill is pathetic now without Anvil of Doom feat.

    Griffin's Wrath - Added effect: On critical hit, reduces other encounter cooldowns by 1 second. This gives the class a little bit of variety and action. It also justifies the overly-long animation of the skill.

    Crushing Blows - Increase the magnitude from 150 to 200 and change the chance of activation from a Penetration/Power ratio to CombatAdvantage/Power ratio. This will increase proc rate from 9% to 14% for top end characters. The increased proc is needed for this skill to be a viable alternative to Roiling Hatred. When using Crushing Blows, a character spends 5% of their time generating Seethe points, which means a 5% loss in damage. Right now the feat is only generating about that much extra damage. It's almost a wash.

    Landwaster - Loss of all vengeance points is a real killer and this skill needs more to make that worth it. I recommend having the skill double at-will damage during the 5 seconds. Players could use the skill just for that guaranteed effect.. or choose to hit their Daily again if they want within the 5 seconds.

    Bloody Reprise - Lack of visual feedback makes this feat really hard to use. A player either needs a visual queue for the 2 second window or it should be increase to 3 seconds. I found it extremely hard to hit even while focusing on it exclusively with no battle going on.

  • demarw2#2749 demarw2 Member Posts: 70 Arc User
    In my opinion Dreadnought is balanced now after three mods. It also was in mod 18 but only with animation canceling, that is not 'fair'. I can compete with the most other classes in TOMM. Fighter is in line with Warlock, Rogue, Ranger and Wizard. Barbarian is a bit stronger than these. Only the Arbiter Cleric is much stronger. So class balancing is really good now. So well done devs!

    The only annoying thing is the long third hit animation of Griffons Wrath. Maybe you could fix it. The tooltips says 0.55 seconds, but it needs about 2 seconds.
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