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Official M19: Warlock Feedback



  • ramesh84ramesh84 Member Posts: 133 Arc User

    Curse Bite counts as a curse consume and will no longer spawn a soul puppet with Power of the Nine Hells.

    We are also working to have the damage for Tyrannical Curse fixed. But it is a complex power requiring a complex fix, and therefore may take some time.

    Additionally, we are working to remove the penalty to the AoE for Fiery Bolt. However, with such a short cooldown, we would need to reduce the magnitude to 135 for all targets. If this is something the community supports, we are glad to make the change.
    Hello there, thank you for the fixes done and the announced ones! And here's some feedback:
    - I do enjoy the changes on feats, class features and powers, it seems we finally have some meaningful choices, I would like to see some improvement in design for T4 (EG is a CD clone since forever) and T5 feats (I wouldn't link cooldown reduction to soul puppet due to AI issues).
    - Is there any chance to revert latest change on Curse Bite? It seemed it finally fitted a spot in rotations
    - I personally prefer Fiery Bolt's as a curse synergy spell, would rather invest developing time into Dreadtheft, suggesting two possible reworks:
    A: removing curse synergy to let it work in synergy with the new Power of the Nine Hells
    B: reworking as a single target spell, allowing to cast at-wills while channelling.
    Have a nice day!

  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    Fiery bolt is already just a power to mass curse in a hurry for curse bite because the damage is terrible, so honestly, I'd take 135 mag to all targets. Better than what it is now tbf. 150 would be REALLY nice and give a very small boost to AoE which would be very welcome. The CD is pretty short compared to some other classes (which I personally like), so I understand why the mag would need to be kept in check. So that seems pretty fair.
    Post edited by kythelion#3210 on
  • samfandango#7687 samfandango Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    @joebot#9387 where have you been all our lives?

    So there was never going to be a nerf to Soul Spark buff, great!
    Soul Scorch generates AP, great!
    IS and CB changes are interesting.
    Getting TC to function properly would be a much desired and long awaited fix, and many here would thank you for the effort you're looking to put into it!
    The 135 mag for Fiery Bolt is quite a specific number, could we ask for the logic behind that? Simply CD related? Any chance we could trial use it on preview for a week (for science), and if the change isn't liked revert it?
  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Member Posts: 165 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    Some extra feedback.

    Is there some reasoning behind why we have AoE encounters that are significantly stronger than our single target ones?
    Specifically Hadars Grasp and Vampiric Embrace.
    I know they both have secondary effects, but I dont think they are strong enough to warrent such a significant magnitude difference especially as they are single target only

    Hellfire Ring - 11.6 second CD ( 30% reduction) 355 magnitude AoE DoT = 30magnitude per second

    BoVA - 12.4second CD ( 30% reduction) 300-450 magnitude AoE DoT 24-36magnitude per second


    Vampiric 10.8 second CD, 275magnitude Single target only, Self heals = 25magnitude per second
    Hadar Grasp - 15.5 second CD, 230-345 magnitude Single target DoT summons a puppet 15-22magnitude per second

    Both These encounters need to do more. They shouldnt be so much weaker relatively to AoE encounters
    I like that we can chose to use AoE encounters on bosses, especially on bosses with adds for the extra flexibility, But it would also be nice to have the option to slot pure single target abilities too without such a drop in damage.

    For Vampiric Embrace, maybe remove the extra self heal from the curse consume and instead increase the magnitude by 100. it heals quite alot without the consume, the extra heal is kinda overkill, but its nice it no longer gives temp hitpoints.
    would give VE 34-35magnitude per second.

    Hadars Grasp is really weak for a single target only Encounter with a 15.5 second CD, The control aspect just doesnt justify the low damage, especially since a lot of mobs
    really should be 300-450 magnitude for 20-30 magnitude per second.
    As i said before, this really isnt an overpowered buff, the Wizard version, Entangling Force, Deals 375-562.5magnitude and that also has longer Control

    Basically I don't want to be forced to use AOE against single target fights, to do decent damage, I Don't mind BoVA still being the best potential encounter after killing flames, but I do want the other options to be within a reasonable margin.

  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Member Posts: 165 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    supposed to say, "especially since a lot of mobs are Control immune anyway"
    Didn't want to edit again so quick in case the post disappeared

    Also if you Buff Hadars grasp up to 300-450 magnitude, it will offset the damage lost from when you fix Deadly Curse.
    We wont be gaining extra damage from a bug, but out damage output will stay roughly the same with the increase to hadars. Win WIn
    Post edited by tempus86#1158 on
  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Member Posts: 165 Arc User
    18sec base, with a magnitude of 200 sounds good to me, with the CD reduction I have this should drop it down to 12.6 seconds, which line up nicely with both BoVA and Hellfire Ring, both around 12 seconds. I Think a slightly longer CD in return for a higher Base magnitude is a price worth paying, especially as I think this will flow much better.

    In regards to the AoE vs ST powers especially using BoVA as a baseline. I think BoVA is In a good spot damage wise, as it does have its drawbacks, so shouldn't be reduced damage wise, Same with hellfire as it come with the added bonus of extra spark generation, though I do think the radius needs to be increased a little bit since its a fixed location and rather small.
    I just think the single target alternatives should be more comparable and hopefully your investigations with come to the same conclusion.

    End of the day, its more about bringing weak encounters up to par, providing more viable options for different playstyles/builds without having a massive penalty in damage against the best performing options.

    Im sure there will always be 1 build that is best, its impossible to balance things 100% but right now, that 1 build is a solid 15% better than the next best alternative, partly due to the deadly curse bug, and to me that's too big a gap.
  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Member Posts: 165 Arc User
    Also, a pretty biased opinion here, but I love Flames of Phegethos, its my favourite daily, its DoT, the animation is awesome, so it makes me sad its so awful damage.
    And with you looking in to a fix for Tyrannical Curse split damage, ( huzzah) maybe its still to get rid off the AoE portion of FoP, its really bad, the radius is too small, it doesn't seem to know what it wants to be, its not single target, and its not AoE and every other daily is better in either situation.
    So maybe just scrap the part completely and make it a pure single target daily. All of them do AoE right now, so it would be nice to have at least 1 that is just single target only with a decent magnitude :heart:

    And yes, im gonna keep shamelessly plugging to make the daily awesome
  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Member Posts: 821 Arc User

    Fiery Bolt: Removed the damage penalty to nearby targets. Magnitude remains 200. Cooldown for the power increased from 12 base to 18 base.

    That's great. It would be really nice if Eldritch Blast got a similar treatment. Warlocks don't have a real aoe at-will. What about forgoing the double damage on the third strike and instead allowing it to damage enemies within 15' of the primary target with each strike?
  • dlynn334dlynn334 Member Posts: 13 Arc User

    The 135 mag for Fiery Bolt is quite a specific number, could we ask for the logic behind that? Simply CD related? Any chance we could trial use it on preview for a week (for science), and if the change isn't liked revert it?

    Good day,

    Yes, that number was the result of some comparisons and testing with the cooldown of the power. Otherwise, this power would outperform other AoE powers if it was allowed to remain at 200 magnitude every 12 seconds or less. However, the following change makes this a slightly stronger AoE power:
    • Fiery Bolt: Removed the damage penalty to nearby targets. Magnitude remains 200. Cooldown for the power increased from 12 base to 18 base.
    If it performs considerably worse or better than other AoE powers, we can make adjustments from there.

    Some extra feedback.

    Is there some reasoning behind why we have AoE encounters that are significantly stronger than our single target ones?

    I don't know, this definitely feels weird to me and not something originally considered in the updates. The magnitudes and cooldowns are set based on other aspects of the class. I will have to investigate this further before making comparison adjustments such as the one regarding Entangling Force.

    Thanks, all!
    Great change! As I brought up in a previous post, It would be awesome if we could also remove the missing target hit points mechanic from Killing flames. Right now our hardest hitting ST encounter is bottle necked by the target's missing HP. This encounter should hit for 700 or 750 magnitude regardless of our target's health.

    Also, would be nice to see Hadar's magnitude increased as well to properly align it as our second best option for ST.

    Thank you for your updates!
  • dominious12dominious12 Member Posts: 92 Arc User
    Regarding fiery bolt and its splash damage;
    Would it be feasible to make the power work the way the paladin's divine judgment did originally, or the new healing powers - in that it starts at a higher magnitude, but the damage is divided among targets in the splash zone. That way we would have another option for a decent single-target power for bosses, but still have the option of a big fireball for AoE if we want to curse everything.
  • rev#7881 rev Member Posts: 343 Arc User
    @joebot#9387 where have you been our entire lives? finally someone who listen to our concerns and feedback and simple doesn't tell us the class is fine and we should learn how to play it

    I think every already talked about the main issues with warlock

    I agree with @tempus86#1158 , some solo target encounters have too low of a magnitude (it wouldn't be bad if the extra effects were good)

    Killing flames should have a fixed magnitude

    Dreadtheft either needs a rework or it needs to be gone, the only time i remember being useful was when templocks were meta pre mod 16
  • necromanceheronecromancehero Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    Thank you for listening to the players.
    I read about the fact that you are working on Tyrannical Curse.
    And I join that group of players offering to remove the AoE effect and add magnitude.
    Sorry for my English
  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Member Posts: 165 Arc User
    In regards to the Killing flames, Im sort of in two minds about whether it should be fixed damage or not.
    While on the one hand it would be much more consistent with a fixed magnitude, I do kind of like the execution style part, I just wish it worked more like disintegrate, rather than the scaling based on health. Something like 600 magnitude, increasing to 750 on targets below 25% health.

    IF it was to be changed to a fixed amount, sorry guys, I didn't think I would say this, but 750 would be too strong :D would have to be dropped down to 650magnitude :D
  • usmanazeem#8526 usmanazeem Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    @tempus86#1158 As you have stated in a previous post that soul investiture results in a 6 to 7% damage increase at FIVE STACKS if SS is not an encounter power,do you not think that its would be a massive QoL improvement and constant damage increase if we make soul investiture stacks lose 1 by 1?I think it would make life alot easier in trials and not be overperform worthy
    You may argue that power of the nine hells exists for this purpose/would become useless but considering qe need to give up NOT ONLY SS DAMAGE but also if you wish to stack fast,different powers from Meta rotation which overall causes the loss to outweigh benefit,
    If we can implement this,would be nifty
  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Member Posts: 165 Arc User
    Hmm not a bad idea, however the issue I have with Power of the Nine Hells in general, is that by itself, its not really much of a good Feat, since the soul puppet really does hit like a wet noodle.
    It only really becomes a nice Feat when paired with Risky investment, and having one feat rely almost exclusively on another feels odd. if that makes sense?
    Having some feat combinations working well together is one thing, but, without risky investment, POTNH really doesn't bring anything to the table.
    Double scorch is a stand alone feat, its a direct increase to soul scorch, which for me is a flat 5% overall increase

    And yes, I think having SI stacks drop off 1 by one would kinda make the feat a bit redundant
    Having POTNH increase the duration of the Soul puppet would work just as well if not better, since it would add move value directly to a POTNH+ RI build, but not and DS+RI build, though I would still prefer this whole feat to be a passive instead, and POTNH to have its only stand alone value.
    Also to me, after finding out Risky investment doesn't increase Soul scorch damage, this feat lost even more value in my eyes.

    Don't get me wrong, I am very happy in general that the SI stack issue is being looked at,along with a lot of other issues we have been bitching about being broken for ages. Its probably the most common complaint warlocks have had, I think its just a shame that its a Feat choice rather than just a QoL change in general.

    A soul puppet rework would also passively increase the value of this feat without relying on Risky Investment for a damage boost.
    It really annoys me how the puppet doesn't scale with our stats properly, no CA damage, no proper critical damage, considering how many feats/powers/features/mechanics revolve around this idiotic companion

  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Member Posts: 165 Arc User
    Bah, that got me thinking about other feat changes.
    Abwabwaba's idea about making the puppet deal ranged attacks could definitely be worked into Soul Desecration for instance.
    Would indirectly Tie into Wrathful Souls too, making that Feat more effective at CD reduction than it is currently
  • mongol69mongol69 Member Posts: 442 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    When damnation paragon was around and ways to actually enhance soul puppets, I could understand some people liked using it. But, now it's just a throwback mechanic that only has value from ri feat. All of the other feats surrounding it are just flat out bad. The soul puppet itself adds almost no value to as utility or damage. Just feels like dragging dead weight around.

    If there was a feat choice to have the puppet with ri, or a flat 10% damage without either. I would take the 10% and put the puppet to pasture. I would even prefer if ri was a class mechanic with a longer uptime and lost 1 stack at a time. Then have a si feat choice to either "legitametly" buff the soul puppets % damage or allow just si stacks for % damage untethered to puppet as a choice.

    I just miss the fury paragon where the puppet was not included.
    Post edited by mongol69 on
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    I actually don't mind KF the way it is with the scaling mag, personally, but maybe if the floor was raised a little it would help? Like if the range was 550-750, that way the damage is never gonna be too low on our "big hit" but it won't be out of hand compared to other classes. It would still in line with Assassinate for example which is 650 plus easily procced for the extra 25%. But really I kinda feel that maybe there are other powers that need changing more (Dreadtheft and Arm come to mind)? At least KF isn't BAD.

    Hadar's Grasp needs a bump to make it into a more solid ST choice, especially since most targets are control immune anyway. And VE wouldn't hurt from a small bump either since it's also ST. Yes, the heal is nice and all, but I can do that damage with an AoE ... so why use VE at all ever? It doesn't need to be 600 or anything, but something in between like 300-350 (ish) would be nice? I think 400 mag would really be a sweet spot for adding some damage, but that *might* be a little overtuned since it does include the heal. I mean, my rogue can run three ST encounters 500+ with approximately the same cds. Even with the "bonuses" involved on these two powers, I don't feel asking for 400 would be too much. And it's not like the cds are half the time of other classes to make half the mag feel justified. And no, before you say it, adding mag and adding extra cd are not a palatable option as it was in the case for fiery bolt.

    And the dailies need some help aside from just fixing what's broke. They're all pretty much the same tbh. X mag damage on target, plus some amount of damage to enemies close enough to touch that target. It would be nice to have a true ST option, and a useful one that we'd actually pick in addition to the not-quite-AoE ones. Or even a buff option perhaps? Just ... something.
    Post edited by kythelion#3210 on
  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Member Posts: 165 Arc User
    Following on from before about POTNH, Soul scorch and SI stacks, I still think the simplest thing to have done was just have Soul Scorch consume curse to build up SI, that's how it worked before m16, probably would of been easier to do than a whole feat rework and it would of benefited all specs. but it guess its too late now :wink:
  • chaostyleramicichaostyleramici Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    Feedback: Warlock need one daily for single target with good magnitude, maybe 1200 magnitude
    Hadar grasp need buff in magnitude or buff damage when target is cursed, description in the old hadar grasp: Warlock's Curse Consume: Your target is lifted for an additional 1.5 seconds and they take 25% more damage from Curses and Soul Puppets while they are Stunned. Warlock's Curse is expended.
  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Member Posts: 165 Arc User
    edited June 2020

    Feedback: Warlock need one daily for single target with good magnitude, maybe 1200 magnitude
    Hadar grasp need buff in magnitude or buff damage when target is cursed, description in the old hadar grasp: Warlock's Curse Consume: Your target is lifted for an additional 1.5 seconds and they take 25% more damage from Curses and Soul Puppets while they are Stunned. Warlock's Curse is expended.

    1200 isn't good enough if you want a pure single target. since we already have dailies better than that. They just behave differently to lets say, shocking execution or iceknife
    Brood of Hadar, is 1500 in total 600 + 6x150, just lots of small hits that have separate crit rolls, ( the bites )
    Tyranical curse is harder to estimate, but for me it deals about 800k-900k extra damage from the 15% bonus damage buff, which is about the same as a 600magnitude hit. so again its about 1500 magnitude in total.
    Its just spread out over a longer time, and can potentially be much lower. so its less effective than say a 1hit up front.

    But ye, I agree a pure single target daily with no AoE component would be really nice, cough ( flames of Phlegethos) cough cough

  • maineiac12maineiac12 Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    /Feedback I see lots of decent changes but the one I want the most is straight damage on Killing Flames that is not dependent on reduced HP of the target. I just makes no sense to me that so much of our damage, not just in KF, depends on the how much damage the target has already taken and we need at least one strong encounter power that actually does some damage.
  • burnthedead#7732 burnthedead Member Posts: 69 Arc User
    Since they want to mess around with warlocks again, and Killing Flames has the wierd mechanic,
    how about 750 mag not facing you, 625 face on. Or 750 while under Combat Advantage 625 when not.
    Also still bitter about the Grung nerf=75% drop in magnitude or something. They took Owlbear off top shelf, then Doohickey and Owl figurine, Soul Investiture, Life Steal, Dailies etc... Then finally Orcus, for now.
    How is less more ?????
  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Member Posts: 165 Arc User

    An in depth look at At Will powers
    How they function, and interact with each other, if at all, and with class features, Along with possible ways to improve them.

    Eldritch Blast
    A three fold attack, 2 quick hits, followed by an AoE hit, that takes twice as long to cast, but deals twice the damage.
    Cast speed, 0.38seconds, 35magnitude for the each of the first 2 hits, and 70magnitude for the final hit.
    Average Magnitude of 92.5/second.
    Pretty solid AoE. for an at will if a bit restricting because you need to complete the full 3 hit combo, and its small radius
    . Im guessing its 10' since it doesn't hit more than 1 target dummy in the stronghold, but Fiery Bolt does, and that is 15'

    Can be used as a primary or secondary at will in all content ( though its not the best at single target, which is fine)
    Interacts well with ACC and Deadly curse, basically increasing the magnitude per hit by 25 for 117.5/second

    Not much I would change really, other than possibly increase the radius to 15' since it is our only At Will that can deal AoE.


    Dark Spiral/Dark Helix
    A two part At Will, the first part summons one soul/charge/orb, the second part consumes all charges collected to deal high damage to 1 target based on the number of charges.
    Added effect - each target killed effected by Curse summons a charge.
    Cast Speed - 0.8 seconds. 95magnitude per charge for a maximum of 285magnitude.
    Average magnitude 118.75/second per charge, up to a maximum of 356.25magnitude.
    However, as a primary at will, the average damage is halved, since it takes 0.8 seconds each cast, and the first cast summons a charge. so it takes 1.6seconds to deal any damage. dropping the average down to 59.375magnitude/second

    Very good as a support/secondary at will during solo content or group content with many enemies.
    Very poor as single target

    Possible changes
    For the most part i like how functions, however I do wish it was more flexible as a support.
    Having the Curse Consume also summon a charge would make this much better for single target fights, without taking anything away from the job it does during large AoE situations or solo content.
    Would make it a very interesting choice as a second at will for Curse consume builds. which realistically could gain 2 charges per encounter cycle ( 3 if you dropped killing flames but....why would you) meaning you could use this at full charge 4-5 times each minute, You could also pre cast this for a charge in sections of downtime, eg phase transitions or periods of heavy movement.


    Hellish Rebuke

    3 part At Will, an initial hit, a DoT effect lasting 10 seconds, and an effect that deals damage to attackers marked by the first hit
    Cast speed - 0.7seconds, initial hit 45 magnitude, DoT magnitude, 10magnitude PER TICK ( very misleading toolip) for a total of 50 over 10 seconds, and 25mangitude each attack you take while the target is marked.

    Average magnitude is pretty complicated to work out when used as a primary at will, unless you take No Pity No Mercy, since the DoT doesnt tick each time you re-apply it, and there is no way to guess how many times you can get hit so ill leave that out.
    Average magnitude as a support is easier, if you let to DoT tick 5 times. 45 for the initial hit and 50 for the DoT, for a total of 95.
    Average - 134magnitude/second ( but you can only use it 6 times per minute to get this)

    best support/secondary At Will right now, very good soul spark generation, decent AoE potential if you mark all targets,
    As a primary, you lose a lot of the benefits that it has as a secondary, it does much less damage and generates less sparks.
    Wouldn't change a thing.

    When taken with No Pity No Mercy

    The DoT part is removed, and instead the initial and reflected attack is increased by 25%, as well as generating 2 sparks per attack instead of one. All criticals can grant combat advantage, which is a very nice option especially for soloing however the price you pay is that the average damage for a primary is fairly low. only 78.75magnitude per second.
    Weaker than both Eldritch blast ( 92.5) and Hand of Blight (100) which can also be used with No Pity No Mercy for the CA buff and both have equal or better spark generation due to attack speed.
    Now yes Im not factoring in the reflect part, but that is such a random, and in Dungeon content undesirable option, because who wants to intentionally take extra damage? that I dont think it should be counted.

    So the change i would like, is not actually to do with hellish rebuke, its a great at will, complex and works great in all situations, especially as a secondary paired with Hand of Blight,
    I would prefer No Pity No Mercy to remove the reflect damage part, as well as the DoT, and instead just Deal a flat 75 magnitude, which would average out to 105/second.
    Yes this would make Hellish rebuke the strongest primary At Will initially, however you wouldnt be able to take Deadly Curse at the same time as No pity no Mercy so there is still a penalty to overall potential damage if you want the Combat Advantage perk.


    Hand of Blight Melee

    Fast attacks, stacks up to 4% damage reduction on the target, great soul spark generation, the best of all at wills
    Cast time 0.4 seconds. 40 per hit
    average magnitude 100/second, currently the best we have, which is fine, its melee and that comes with risks

    best primary we have, works reaaaally well with hellish rebuke as a secondary

    Works great with deadly curse and ACC, in fact it works too well with Deadly curse currently since it double procs it. I assume this is because the secondary effect that gives damage reduction is being counted as a curse, it has the same icon just a purple colour instead of green, which changes to dark blue when you have both curse and the debuff on the target.

    Great at will, wouldnt change anything to the melee side, except fix the deadly curse bug, it makes the Class feature a MUST SLOT and I dont like relying on a bug to deal extra damage.

    Hand of Blight Ranged

    Slow attacks, stacks up 4% damage reduction, generates ZERO soul sparks
    Cast time - 0.65 seconds, 50magnitude per hit.
    Average magnitude 79/second

    Well, what can i say, this is the bad side of Hand of Blight, its flat out bad. the zero soul spark regeneration is very odd. not sure why this was ever added.

    possible changes, pretty much just let this generate 1 spark per hit like every other at will. It doesnt have to be as good as the melee hit. its would still be still be weaker in damage overall and slower at generating sparks. so would still encourage players to use this in melee as much as possible, but the Risk/reward should be because the melee is strong, not a double whammy of the ranged attack is rubbish.


    Well that was a lot longer than I initially planned, but it seems nows the time to get it all out :smile: and im sure there are people who will dissagree, or dont want deadlycurse to be fixed :anguished: but tough, its a bug, get over it
  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Member Posts: 165 Arc User
    In Short if you don't want to read all that it boils down to

    Increase the radius of Eldritch blast to 15'
    Allow Curse Consumes to add a charge to Dark Helix
    Change No Pity No Mercy to, increase magnitude by 30( not 25%) and remove the reflect damage as well as the DoT
    Allow Hand of Blight ranged attack to generate soul sparks
    Fix the double proc of Deadly Curse on Hand of Blight melee attacks
  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Member Posts: 165 Arc User
    and again, a big thanks to @""joebot#9387"
    We have add more communication in this thread in the past couple weeks than i think we have had in the last 18months.
    decent communcation too, not excuses or empty responses, so huzzah. much love from a warlock
  • samfandango#7687 samfandango Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    Altered as I realised feedback belonged in a different forum
    Post edited by samfandango#7687 on
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