If the goal of scaling is to make all content relevant, the rewards need to be relevant as well. This doesn't mean that ETOS needs to drop ToMM rings, but the rewards should still be useful. Even the newest alt will never use Alliance Raid Gear.
After further exploration in different dungeons of differing IL requirements for entry and critter values, the new system is definitely more consistent moving between like for like dungeons. Two problems seem to persist though, Combat Advantage does not scale correctly in most circumstances, it often over scales below what be cap from a capped value. The second issue, a more larger one, is that outright removing gear to approach the recommended IL for entry actually improves the stats from the scaled version. So overall I think it is an improvement over the previous scaling system, having said that I am not sure it offers a complete solution to the scaling issues that we have currently.
Scaling is good if you want a low level character to participate in events. This version of scaling is unusable for that purpose in this game. (too cheap access to rank 8-9 enchants, low level chars have much better standing than well geared vets)
As was already mentioned, for limiting player's performance somewhere you would have much easier life with caps. Put caps on Weapon Damage, Power and HP (careful here, tank's situation must be counted separately) and you have what is needed. If you want to be awesome, tinker with soft caps. Otherwise, just use hardcaps and be done with it.
If you use all the knowledge you accumulated so far, this is work for 10 minutes. Straightforward, reproducible - and if by any chance anything goes awry, it could be easily tested.
Most MMOs with scaling seem to utilize a per instance hardcap on stats, which I really enjoy. It makes everything much easier on the devs. I prefer this method.
Do not scale DOWN the players but scale UP the dungeons, make everything level 80. otherwhise scaling will always have issues.
This doesn't help new players trying to complete dungeons and content. If everything was level 80, then the low level queues would take forever. This solution is not thinking about the problem as a whole. It's very one-sided for players at level 80.
Current scaling is a bit strange, it scales down companion stats and item stats differently (Companion stats get lowered more than item stats), probably due to Bondings. I've tried entering FBI with most stats on my toon vs companion gear and there was some difference (1-7K) in different stats.
Where scaling is involved, scaling down capped stats is pointless, since the cap is the same across the board (you can;t have more than 50% critical strike chance, regardless of content. So having 90K Critical Strike vs 57K critical strike in Malabog's doesn't make any difference at all (both at 50%) However...
Power and HP are different, these should be scaled down to some extent. Level 70 content has 7000 Enemy Ratings, which should have 33% of the capped stats and Power/HP would follow (i.e 180K Power would be 120K power with this). If all scaling would be 33%, then you would hit caps every time (85K stats scaled down 33% would still be 57K ish for lvl70 dungeons) while reducing pure damage from Power and survivability from HP
The problem is with new players though, if you scale them down, they will be useless and unable to finish this. With only Power/HP scaling this would be avoided (stronger players will have more Power/HP and perform better anyway)
Do not scale DOWN the players but scale UP the dungeons, make everything level 80. otherwhise scaling will always have issues.
This doesn't help new players trying to complete dungeons and content. If everything was level 80, then the low level queues would take forever. This solution is not thinking about the problem as a whole. It's very one-sided for players at level 80.
I disagree. In Star Wars The Old Republic they have Flashpoints (aka dungeons) These can be done solo, in a random group or premade groups and can do them as "story mode, veteran mode, and master mode" each mode offering better rewards. When you enter one. Everyone, even you, gets scaled to level 70. doesnt matter if your are level 15 or 50 or the current level cap. Everyone is 70. And your stats are set to the level 70 dungeon requirements. The only things that don't get scaled are the bonuses from the set gear and the amplifiers from mods that are equipped in gear (these are like the bonuses you get from the 6 slots from your companions). That way someone who is new can still keep up with the endgame players but the endgame players still have the little extra boost to their dmg, tanking or healing that adds a small space between them. Killing the 3 or sometimes more bosses will drop gear, credits, mods, etc... (rewards are based on your current item level in the open world. if your current item level was 100 then you would get between 98-106 gear score items dropping if it was a max item level, which is currently 306, you would get rewards between 302-306 with a chance at set gear dropping aka the best gear) and finishing the flashpoint will earn you more rewards.
So it is possible to scale everyone up. It seems it would work better with all the endgame items that give bonuses and boosts to help balance everything out more. Just my 2 cents. I'm off to play SWTOR now that I covered the forms here.
my idea is that the scaling system was originally developed to cover the decreasing number of neverwinter players. When I started the game in 2013, queue waiting times were not like this, was more fluid. Then as time passed by and new mods keeped popping, some people were leaving, and while playing end game content as a "solo" player I started having problems trying to find a group. Not everyone is social like people in big guilds, and they don't have to be. No one should have to advertise in the general gathering areas, like many of us, to invite players to a group. And there are factors such as the ability to use English, whether wanting to help others in guild or not, so some people ( i think the majority ) chose to play it alone, and just queue for dungeons. I think the team is aware of this situation, so they are trying to make the old content attractive for end game players, too. Likewise, they bring together players who are leveling up with end game players. How do they do it? For example, they give bonuses for random queues. however, they do not want the end game players to have divine abilities at these meetings and to "carry" others.
I think this mindset has no errors. So it's the right thing. But queue wait times are already "too long" for end game players. If you want to redirect these players to old content, you should make the reward system more useful "only for end game players". For example, I think people shouldn't have to play a certain dungeonn to have Bis equipment, you already have a "seal system". For example, Why can't, or why should not i farm Tomm (what's queue never works) equipment (rings etc.) by helping new, or leveling players? In this case, I wouldn't mind being overly weakened. I could even be grateful for having something to do other than boring and getting out after entering the game and typing "LFG" a few times.
Of course, playing new content should also be made attractive. However, since the content is new, this situation is already an attraction. For example, in the end game trial or dungeons, the items can be directly lootable, in the early game dungeons the seals gathered can be turned in for those wanted items instead. That is, the difficulty of the new content can be offset by the grindiness of the old content.
First issue is: Bypassing the system tends to produce better results. Second issue: Using equip from newer campaigns one way or other penalizes you. The ideal does not suffer from something like that - while still limiting player's performance.
Hypothetical example: I am right below the limit the scaling triggers, I am capped on AP, Crit, Accu - 30k each. I try to improve my char, add 30k stats and cap Awareness as well. However, that makes my IL bigger, scaling hops in and I am no longer capped on any of those stats. This is stupid.
And that is the major difference between scaling and caps. Caps do not allow you to be better than the pre-set limit. Scaling makes you worse than you actually are.
Do not scale DOWN the players but scale UP the dungeons, make everything level 80. otherwhise scaling will always have issues.
This doesn't help new players trying to complete dungeons and content. If everything was level 80, then the low level queues would take forever. This solution is not thinking about the problem as a whole. It's very one-sided for players at level 80.
will preface by saying i dont claim to have any ideas or solutions to the scaling problems
but
the game originally started as a level 60 game for the first 5 mods which means valindra malabog and tiamat? were all level 60 and were all brought up to level 70 at some point so they have scaled up the dungeons at some point in the past i've always wondered why they didnt make everything 80 since you can level from 70-80 in at worst a day. in my opinion everything should be level 80 just like everything was level 70 back when i began playing
I can answer the why. BiS gear players were trashing old content sub five minutes or so and leaving less geared players chasing after them the whole dungeon. Scaling was introduced to try to slow down content so that it was "more relevant" and to help lower geared players perform better in older content versus higher geared players. It is largely unpopular to have our stats changed and wonkified at their whim differently in every place we go to, but they are intent on closing the gaps between players and keeping old content relevant. Cause that Alliance Assault Coat I just got out of RTQ Tia is totally relevant .... >_>
My only thought on that is that being scaled down (nerfed) and yet only getting a Blood Soaked Cap and 450 RAD out of the final reward chest in no way shape or form keeps old content "relevant".
In order to make old content "relevant" the rewards will also need to scale with the players unscaled item level, ie a level 80 toon will get level 80 rewards when opening the final reward chest, a level 60 will get level 60 rewards out of it, etc.
I understand that scaling is being used as a tool to quell the complaints of some lower item level players while running content alongside higher item level players in older content, but scaling us down does not make it "relevant". There needs to be a give and take, not just a take to level the playing field.
To truly should make older content in any way "relevant" to scaled down end game players the rewards will NEED to scale up, it's only fair.
Just because you are scaled down it doesn't mean that the dungeon becomes as hard as not scaled new dungeons. If it does tho then the rewards should indeed by increased but I would say it is not the case with scaling as it is now (at least with most dungeons).
It is a great idea for scaling but if it gets harder to do the " OLD " content we should get better gear. I can't see the reason why old Dungeon should be harder to do even though the rewards we get are useless. I for one would prefer to be able to solo every Dungeon where the rewards are useless. You should make the rewarding system better for old content, either by getting items from new content at the end or getting resources that we can use to improve gear.
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arazith07Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,719Arc User
You should make the rewarding system better for old content, either by getting items from new content at the end or getting resources that we can use to improve gear.
I personally find the rAD is worth the time. I mean some dungeons are a bit lengthy sure, but usually they have multiple chests at the end so it makes up for it. It is also pretty much the only reason why players run the random queues though (and the majority of the content), is just to get your rAD for the day.
I still think scaling by changing stats should be removed. let stat be stats. adjust by having a damage multiplier for the dungeon (or whatever)
and we still need a better way to know what opposing stats we're dealing with
and dungeon chest that require keys should not be based on the dungeon difficulty. it needs to be based on the dungeon difficult AND how hard it was to get the key - a greater demon key in a prophecy skirmish is an atrocity and a waste
No to player scaling.. Heres an example Begginer Q: required ilvl 12k-15k just normal easy dungeon reward less Rough AD reward Normal Q: req ilvl 15k-20k Expert Q: required ilvl 20k-24k those harder dungeon fair amount of AD
Professional Q: req 24kup ilvl all dungeons difficulty are raised to highest difficulty (if latest dungeon difficulty is 40k then set to 40k) greater AD reward and increased rare drop rate
For trial same as above. With this setup people will have chance to challenge their self and get boosted drop/better rewards and for those who arent geared well, they can still farm the Rough AD easily and get regular loot.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Here is a novel concept. Throw scaling out of the window and make the reward for completing a dungeon a function of the average time it takes a group to complete that piece of content. Get rid of random queues while you at it, since if the reward depends on how long it takes groups to complete it, there is no incentive to run things based on completion time and you can choose to run what you enjoy.
gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
> @thefabricant said: > Here is a novel concept. Throw scaling out of the window and make the reward for completing a dungeon a function of the average time it takes a group to complete that piece of content. Get rid of random queues while you at it, since if the reward depends on how long it takes groups to complete it, there is no incentive to run things based on completion time and you can choose to run what you enjoy.
Agree with this. I proposed something similar some time ago. The real resource in the game is time (or money that pays for time).
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Here is a novel concept. Throw scaling out of the window and make the reward for completing a dungeon a function of the average time it takes a group to complete that piece of content. Get rid of random queues while you at it, since if the reward depends on how long it takes groups to complete it, there is no incentive to run things based on completion time and you can choose to run what you enjoy.
Oh, this would never ever ever be abused....
"We reached the first boss of ETOS in 6 minutes when it should have taken only 4 minutes! Time to vote-kick you!"
This is a horrible idea. It would lead to all sorts of griefing and antisocial behavior, particularly directed against new players and those inexperienced with a particular dungeon.
If rewards are based on time of completion, who would ever stop to explain the mechanics of any dungeon? By stopping to explain, it is costing you AD!
Actually, he was suggesting longer runs would reward higher I think so that speed runs wouldn't be necessary. That way lower gear scores would be just as welcome because a faster run is less rewarding.
I don't know if I like the idea, but I think that's what he's suggesting.
Actually, he was suggesting longer runs would reward higher I think so that speed runs wouldn't be necessary. That way lower gear scores would be just as welcome because a faster run is less rewarding.
I don't know if I like the idea, but I think that's what he's suggesting.
Well if that's the case, it would lead to just other types of abnormal behavior. So if my character is overpowered for a particular piece of content, I am supposed to just stand around and not kill things in order to boost my reward? Would characters who soloed dungeons get big rewards, because the time of completion is comparatively long?
There should be no direct connection between time of completion and magnitude of reward.
In order to make older content more rewarding, perhaps make *every* reroll of the final chest give one of the "special" rewards, like a mount or artifact or enchanting stone, and not just on the fourth roll.
Also, scaling should not require every player to get to the most recent caps in order to not be penalized by the scaling. I'm not interested in Zariel and so I don't have much interest in trying to reach the 90k stat caps, but unless I do, I will be penalized via scaling in older content. That doesn't seem right.
Here is a novel concept. Throw scaling out of the window and make the reward for completing a dungeon a function of the average time it takes a group to complete that piece of content. Get rid of random queues while you at it, since if the reward depends on how long it takes groups to complete it, there is no incentive to run things based on completion time and you can choose to run what you enjoy.
Oh, this would never ever ever be abused....
"We reached the first boss of ETOS in 6 minutes when it should have taken only 4 minutes! Time to vote-kick you!"
This is a horrible idea. It would lead to all sorts of griefing and antisocial behavior, particularly directed against new players and those inexperienced with a particular dungeon.
If rewards are based on time of completion, who would ever stop to explain the mechanics of any dungeon? By stopping to explain, it is costing you AD!
The suggestion isn't rewards based on time of completion. The suggestion is rewards based on average time of completion. The reward would be based on the average time people (in the entire server) take to complete the dungeon, not the time your particular group took to complete it. If a dungeon takes longer on average it would give better rewards, because it demands more time. Of course, a system like this could be manipulated, but not by making a single run take more or less time like something based on completion time would.
You're kinda preaching to the choir. I think scaling is stupid. We're already hard capped at 50% on most stats, so scaling serves no purpose outside of HP and Power and Weapon Damage which could easily just be set caps instead of scaling. But since the devs aren't wavering on the concept of making "old dungeons relevant", people are trying to suggest things that could help, and rewards are one of the things that can help scaling be a little more palatable.
Here is a novel concept. Throw scaling out of the window and make the reward for completing a dungeon a function of the average time it takes a group to complete that piece of content. Get rid of random queues while you at it, since if the reward depends on how long it takes groups to complete it, there is no incentive to run things based on completion time and you can choose to run what you enjoy.
Without meaning to be rude, you're a genius when it comes to balance and stuff like that. But novel ideas ain't your strong suite.
This will end up with lower geared players taking all the blame. It's like you want to drive the upper and lower tier players apart. Want the best loot? Better get the best players. How do ya judge if someone's good? Gear score, as you dont know how good anyone is in the game unless ya ran with em before.
Scaling is hard. No surprise. But I'm not sure what changed in the last year or so. Me, a guildless returnee at only 23k gear score shouldn't be able to beat 26k ones. I'm not sure if I'm good or others suck, but scaling is possibly working against them.
Make different daily queues. One with one without scaling. More things to do for everyone, and you play what ya want
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Here is a novel concept. Throw scaling out of the window and make the reward for completing a dungeon a function of the average time it takes a group to complete that piece of content. Get rid of random queues while you at it, since if the reward depends on how long it takes groups to complete it, there is no incentive to run things based on completion time and you can choose to run what you enjoy.
Oh, this would never ever ever be abused....
"We reached the first boss of ETOS in 6 minutes when it should have taken only 4 minutes! Time to vote-kick you!"
This is a horrible idea. It would lead to all sorts of griefing and antisocial behavior, particularly directed against new players and those inexperienced with a particular dungeon.
If rewards are based on time of completion, who would ever stop to explain the mechanics of any dungeon? By stopping to explain, it is costing you AD!
The idea was based on average run time. Kicking the person isn't really going to help them, since it will just increase the length of the run and thus "reduce" their ad per hour.
Here is a novel concept. Throw scaling out of the window and make the reward for completing a dungeon a function of the average time it takes a group to complete that piece of content. Get rid of random queues while you at it, since if the reward depends on how long it takes groups to complete it, there is no incentive to run things based on completion time and you can choose to run what you enjoy.
Without meaning to be rude, you're a genius when it comes to balance and stuff like that. But novel ideas ain't your strong suite.
This will end up with lower geared players taking all the blame. It's like you want to drive the upper and lower tier players apart. Want the best loot? Better get the best players. How do ya judge if someone's good? Gear score, as you dont know how good anyone is in the game unless ya ran with em before.
Scaling is hard. No surprise. But I'm not sure what changed in the last year or so. Me, a guildless returnee at only 23k gear score shouldn't be able to beat 26k ones. I'm not sure if I'm good or others suck, but scaling is possibly working against them.
Make different daily queues. One with one without scaling. More things to do for everyone, and you play what ya want
Except not really? The RAD awarded in my suggestion is based on the average run time, not the run time of your specific group. Technically this means that if you have a better group (one that performed above average) you would cap your RAD faster, but here is the thing, there is a cap. I am not going to retype every argument I have made against scaling again in this thread, suffice to say, if you care, read here. I won't bother precisely because I know that the developers literally do not care about our opinions on scaling, they will implement it regardless and it will backfire again just like it has in every single previous iteration. I seem to recall some quote about trying the same thing and expecting different outcomes and I think it applies in this case, maybe someone else can complete it for me.
Of course, its very easy to "solve" the problem that people think they want solved here, except they don't actually want that problem to be solved. Lets say we removed that word "average" from my suggestion and made the RAD awarded for completing a dungeon = 20 * the number of seconds used to complete the run. In other words, if it takes you 2 minutes to finish eSoT, you get 2400 RAD. If it takes you 10 minutes to run eSoT, you get 24000 RAD. Great, now everyone can run whatever they like and take as long as they like and it will still take them 1.38 hours to cap their RAD. Except its not so great, because now what people will do is they will get to the last boss in eSoT, afk for 1.38 hours and then kill the boss for their 100,000 RAD, because that's how people work.
If you don't incentivize people to do harder content, then they just do the easiest thing they can possibly do, which shows why you should provide different rewards for different content and incentivize people to run harder content.
Here is a novel concept. Throw scaling out of the window and make the reward for completing a dungeon a function of the average time it takes a group to complete that piece of content. Get rid of random queues while you at it, since if the reward depends on how long it takes groups to complete it, there is no incentive to run things based on completion time and you can choose to run what you enjoy.
Oh, this would never ever ever be abused....
"We reached the first boss of ETOS in 6 minutes when it should have taken only 4 minutes! Time to vote-kick you!"
This is a horrible idea. It would lead to all sorts of griefing and antisocial behavior, particularly directed against new players and those inexperienced with a particular dungeon.
If rewards are based on time of completion, who would ever stop to explain the mechanics of any dungeon? By stopping to explain, it is costing you AD!
The idea was based on average run time. Kicking the person isn't really going to help them, since it will just increase the length of the run and thus "reduce" their ad per hour.
Here is a novel concept. Throw scaling out of the window and make the reward for completing a dungeon a function of the average time it takes a group to complete that piece of content. Get rid of random queues while you at it, since if the reward depends on how long it takes groups to complete it, there is no incentive to run things based on completion time and you can choose to run what you enjoy.
Without meaning to be rude, you're a genius when it comes to balance and stuff like that. But novel ideas ain't your strong suite.
This will end up with lower geared players taking all the blame. It's like you want to drive the upper and lower tier players apart. Want the best loot? Better get the best players. How do ya judge if someone's good? Gear score, as you dont know how good anyone is in the game unless ya ran with em before.
Scaling is hard. No surprise. But I'm not sure what changed in the last year or so. Me, a guildless returnee at only 23k gear score shouldn't be able to beat 26k ones. I'm not sure if I'm good or others suck, but scaling is possibly working against them.
Make different daily queues. One with one without scaling. More things to do for everyone, and you play what ya want
Except not really? The RAD awarded in my suggestion is based on the average run time, not the run time of your specific group. Technically this means that if you have a better group (one that performed above average) you would cap your RAD faster, but here is the thing, there is a cap. I am not going to retype every argument I have made against scaling again in this thread, suffice to say, if you care, read here. I won't bother precisely because I know that the developers literally do not care about our opinions on scaling, they will implement it regardless and it will backfire again just like it has in every single previous iteration. I seem to recall some quote about trying the same thing and expecting different outcomes and I think it applies in this case, maybe someone else can complete it for me.
Of course, its very easy to "solve" the problem that people think they want solved here, except they don't actually want that problem to be solved. Lets say we removed that word "average" from my suggestion and made the RAD awarded for completing a dungeon = 20 * the number of seconds used to complete the run. In other words, if it takes you 2 minutes to finish eSoT, you get 2400 RAD. If it takes you 10 minutes to run eSoT, you get 24000 RAD. Great, now everyone can run whatever they like and take as long as they like and it will still take them 1.38 hours to cap their RAD. Except its not so great, because now what people will do is they will get to the last boss in eSoT, afk for 1.38 hours and then kill the boss for their 100,000 RAD, because that's how people work.
If you don't incentivize people to do harder content, then they just do the easiest thing they can possibly do, which shows why you should provide different rewards for different content and incentivize people to run harder content.
There's ways to incentivize. SVA+MSVA did this right. Give people something they want, a chance to practice on lower tier enemies, learn the mechanics, with a lower drop rate. Even though SOMI mod was the most boring thing ever, looking back - that was the right way to go.
Make something for newer players, and make something for older players. I myself am in the older group, being here (albeit with a massive 1 year break) for well over 5k hours, closing in on 6. However, you can't expect new players to keep taking scraps of the rest.
Have one drop in easy version that is unique to it, and another in hard version, which also has something unique. That way you get a thumbs up from both sides. Sure its more work, but if you keep the mechanics as is, rescale health and stat requirements, and you're done.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
There's ways to incentivize. SVA+MSVA did this right. Give people something they want, a chance to practice on lower tier enemies, learn the mechanics, with a lower drop rate. Even though SOMI mod was the most boring thing ever, looking back - that was the right way to go.
Make something for newer players, and make something for older players. I myself am in the older group, being here (albeit with a massive 1 year break) for well over 5k hours, closing in on 6. However, you can't expect new players to keep taking scraps of the rest.
Have one drop in easy version that is unique to it, and another in hard version, which also has something unique. That way you get a thumbs up from both sides. Sure its more work, but if you keep the mechanics as is, rescale health and stat requirements, and you're done.
Incidentally I proposed something exactly like this. Players still need to earn RAD from running content though in addition to such a system and the best way to go about awarding RAD is giving an amount based on the average completion time of content. The reason being because it prevents a single piece of content from becoming the go to content for farming RAD.
If they really wanted to make the dungeons relevant just bring back salvaging. Problem solved scaleing was done for one reason only and that was to make high end players slow down and stop the speed runs. Increase the rad cap to 500000 account wide and everything will be fine.
Lets say before I click to q to random dungeon/trial whatever. I remove my gear, unsummon companion, over all reduce my IL to minimal to hit most low lv Epic dungeons.. This allow me avoid harder dungeons.
Once Inside I put my gear on and even though my chracter got scaled down, due share power I already overpowered in that dungeon. Other possible way, I still keep average IL for that dungeon and avoid scaling down but sommon companion like Xuna.
I more less ignore your scaling down system and screw up dungeon anyways..
When you worked on this new Scaling system, have you though about ways how players may avoid and exploit it??
There are plenty players who already do in live server with older scaling system. Players don't do random q for fun, they do them for daily AD reward. So there is no point do harder dungeons for same reward if I can go easy dungeons and gain same daily AD reward...
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
Comments
Where scaling is involved, scaling down capped stats is pointless, since the cap is the same across the board (you can;t have more than 50% critical strike chance, regardless of content. So having 90K Critical Strike vs 57K critical strike in Malabog's doesn't make any difference at all (both at 50%) However...
Power and HP are different, these should be scaled down to some extent. Level 70 content has 7000 Enemy Ratings, which should have 33% of the capped stats and Power/HP would follow (i.e 180K Power would be 120K power with this). If all scaling would be 33%, then you would hit caps every time (85K stats scaled down 33% would still be 57K ish for lvl70 dungeons) while reducing pure damage from Power and survivability from HP
The problem is with new players though, if you scale them down, they will be useless and unable to finish this. With only Power/HP scaling this would be avoided (stronger players will have more Power/HP and perform better anyway)
Thanks
So it is possible to scale everyone up. It seems it would work better with all the endgame items that give bonuses and boosts to help balance everything out more. Just my 2 cents. I'm off to play SWTOR now that I covered the forms here.
I wish you all the best,
OPTank_
however, they do not want the end game players to have divine abilities at these meetings and to "carry" others.
I think this mindset has no errors. So it's the right thing. But queue wait times are already "too long" for end game players. If you want to redirect these players to old content, you should make the reward system more useful "only for end game players". For example, I think people shouldn't have to play a certain dungeonn to have Bis equipment, you already have a "seal system". For example, Why can't, or why should not i farm Tomm (what's queue never works) equipment (rings etc.) by helping new, or leveling players? In this case, I wouldn't mind being overly weakened.
I could even be grateful for having something to do other than boring and getting out after entering the game and typing "LFG" a few times.
Of course, playing new content should also be made attractive. However, since the content is new, this situation is already an attraction. For example, in the end game trial or dungeons, the items can be directly lootable, in the early game dungeons the seals gathered can be turned in for those wanted items instead. That is, the difficulty of the new content can be offset by the grindiness of the old content.
This needs to be considered.
Second issue: Using equip from newer campaigns one way or other penalizes you.
The ideal does not suffer from something like that - while still limiting player's performance.
Hypothetical example: I am right below the limit the scaling triggers, I am capped on AP, Crit, Accu - 30k each. I try to improve my char, add 30k stats and cap Awareness as well. However, that makes my IL bigger, scaling hops in and I am no longer capped on any of those stats.
This is stupid.
And that is the major difference between scaling and caps. Caps do not allow you to be better than the pre-set limit. Scaling makes you worse than you actually are.
will preface by saying i dont claim to have any ideas or solutions to the scaling problems
but
the game originally started as a level 60 game for the first 5 mods which means valindra malabog and tiamat? were all level 60 and were all brought up to level 70 at some point so they have scaled up the dungeons at some point in the past i've always wondered why they didnt make everything 80 since you can level from 70-80 in at worst a day. in my opinion everything should be level 80 just like everything was level 70 back when i began playing
In order to make old content "relevant" the rewards will also need to scale with the players unscaled item level, ie a level 80 toon will get level 80 rewards when opening the final reward chest, a level 60 will get level 60 rewards out of it, etc.
I understand that scaling is being used as a tool to quell the complaints of some lower item level players while running content alongside higher item level players in older content, but scaling us down does not make it "relevant". There needs to be a give and take, not just a take to level the playing field.
To truly should make older content in any way "relevant" to scaled down end game players the rewards will NEED to scale up, it's only fair.
But that's just my 2¢.
adjust by having a damage multiplier for the dungeon (or whatever)
and we still need a better way to know what opposing stats we're dealing with
and dungeon chest that require keys should not be based on the dungeon difficulty. it needs to be based on the dungeon difficult AND how hard it was to get the key - a greater demon key in a prophecy skirmish is an atrocity and a waste
Heres an example
Begginer Q: required ilvl 12k-15k just normal easy dungeon reward less Rough AD reward
Normal Q: req ilvl 15k-20k
Expert Q: required ilvl 20k-24k those harder dungeon fair amount of AD
Professional Q: req 24kup ilvl all dungeons difficulty are raised to highest difficulty (if latest dungeon difficulty is 40k then set to 40k) greater AD reward and increased rare drop rate
For trial same as above. With this setup people will have chance to challenge their self and get boosted drop/better rewards and for those who arent geared well, they can still farm the Rough AD easily and get regular loot.
> Here is a novel concept. Throw scaling out of the window and make the reward for completing a dungeon a function of the average time it takes a group to complete that piece of content. Get rid of random queues while you at it, since if the reward depends on how long it takes groups to complete it, there is no incentive to run things based on completion time and you can choose to run what you enjoy.
Agree with this. I proposed something similar some time ago. The real resource in the game is time (or money that pays for time).
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
"We reached the first boss of ETOS in 6 minutes when it should have taken only 4 minutes! Time to vote-kick you!"
This is a horrible idea. It would lead to all sorts of griefing and antisocial behavior, particularly directed against new players and those inexperienced with a particular dungeon.
If rewards are based on time of completion, who would ever stop to explain the mechanics of any dungeon? By stopping to explain, it is costing you AD!
I don't know if I like the idea, but I think that's what he's suggesting.
There should be no direct connection between time of completion and magnitude of reward.
In order to make older content more rewarding, perhaps make *every* reroll of the final chest give one of the "special" rewards, like a mount or artifact or enchanting stone, and not just on the fourth roll.
Also, scaling should not require every player to get to the most recent caps in order to not be penalized by the scaling. I'm not interested in Zariel and so I don't have much interest in trying to reach the 90k stat caps, but unless I do, I will be penalized via scaling in older content. That doesn't seem right.
This will end up with lower geared players taking all the blame. It's like you want to drive the upper and lower tier players apart.
Want the best loot? Better get the best players. How do ya judge if someone's good? Gear score, as you dont know how good anyone is in the game unless ya ran with em before.
Scaling is hard. No surprise. But I'm not sure what changed in the last year or so. Me, a guildless returnee at only 23k gear score shouldn't be able to beat 26k ones. I'm not sure if I'm good or others suck, but scaling is possibly working against them.
Make different daily queues. One with one without scaling. More things to do for everyone, and you play what ya want
Of course, its very easy to "solve" the problem that people think they want solved here, except they don't actually want that problem to be solved. Lets say we removed that word "average" from my suggestion and made the RAD awarded for completing a dungeon = 20 * the number of seconds used to complete the run. In other words, if it takes you 2 minutes to finish eSoT, you get 2400 RAD. If it takes you 10 minutes to run eSoT, you get 24000 RAD. Great, now everyone can run whatever they like and take as long as they like and it will still take them 1.38 hours to cap their RAD. Except its not so great, because now what people will do is they will get to the last boss in eSoT, afk for 1.38 hours and then kill the boss for their 100,000 RAD, because that's how people work.
If you don't incentivize people to do harder content, then they just do the easiest thing they can possibly do, which shows why you should provide different rewards for different content and incentivize people to run harder content.
Even though SOMI mod was the most boring thing ever, looking back - that was the right way to go.
Make something for newer players, and make something for older players. I myself am in the older group, being here (albeit with a massive 1 year break) for well over 5k hours, closing in on 6. However, you can't expect new players to keep taking scraps of the rest.
Have one drop in easy version that is unique to it, and another in hard version, which also has something unique. That way you get a thumbs up from both sides. Sure its more work, but if you keep the mechanics as is, rescale health and stat requirements, and you're done.
Small thng which need to be asked.
Lets say before I click to q to random dungeon/trial whatever.
I remove my gear, unsummon companion, over all reduce my IL to minimal to hit most low lv Epic dungeons..
This allow me avoid harder dungeons.
Once Inside I put my gear on and even though my chracter got scaled down, due share power I already overpowered in that dungeon. Other possible way, I still keep average IL for that dungeon and avoid scaling down but sommon companion like Xuna.
I more less ignore your scaling down system and screw up dungeon anyways..
When you worked on this new Scaling system, have you though about ways how players may avoid and exploit it??
There are plenty players who already do in live server with older scaling system. Players don't do random q for fun, they do them for daily AD reward. So there is no point do harder dungeons for same reward if I can go easy dungeons and gain same daily AD reward...
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
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Should I laugh?