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Official M19: Scaling Changes

noworries#8859 noworries Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 532 Cryptic Developer
This module brings some changes with how scaling is performed on a player. Previously, scaling would cap the item level of different item categories to bring the players stats down. One of the big requests from the community was a more proportional system which looked at the current item level, then the scaled item level, and adjusted the players stats down proportionally based on the difference.

That is the system we have put into place with this module. It still has some quirks as not all items treat item level the same (bonding runestones are a set item level but offer a varying amount of stats for example). Even with these quirks the system should feel more natural and make for a better experience when the player is scaled down.

This thread will be for discussing any scaling related issues/comments/etc. that come about as everyone is checking out the new module.
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Comments

  • reapermanaus#2689 reapermanaus Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    I feel that scaling the enchantment stones down is wrong, because a 15th lvl can have a 15th level lets say AZURE enchantment for XP so why when an 80th lvl has the same enchantment is it nerfed, same for all enchanments, sure the gear and stats should be but not enchantments. Rob
  • reapermanaus#2689 reapermanaus Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    What I said above also goes for Mount enchantments, a 5th level could have a Legendary Enchantment for their mount so these should not be nerfed when an 80th lvl is scaled.
  • noworries#8859 noworries Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 532 Cryptic Developer

    What I said above also goes for Mount enchantments, a 5th level could have a Legendary Enchantment for their mount so these should not be nerfed when an 80th lvl is scaled.

    That is the current live scaling. The new scaling doesn't do anything to items specifically. That was one of the concerns many in the community brought up about the old style of scaling.
    arazith07 said:

    I feel like it should be only power, HP, and weapon damage that gets scaled. All the other stats, if you have enough for harder content, you should have enough for earlier content.

    That works if all players being scaled down are always at or above all of the rating caps for their unscaled item level. But when players aren't at the caps, then being scaled down they'd be over capped. This proportional scaling is meant to keep players as close to the same rating difference with the critters as they are scaled. This setup should keep players that are above rating caps when unscaled also above the ratings cap when scaled the majority of the time.
  • ananxiousnoob#0947 ananxiousnoob Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    Not everyone is checkIng out the new module 19 and system as the entire Console player base is not able to do so. Thus we will be presented with a fair accompli. Perhaps therefore you could go into details and examples as to how the scaling figures break down before and after your adjustments so that we Console players are not left in the dark, being unable to get a personal feel of the changes
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 354 Arc User
    The new scaling system seems to be working as intended for lvl 70 content (my 28k fighter is at stat caps, yay!). However, there seems to be issues with lower level content. For example normal temple of the spider scaled me to about 50% of stat caps for that dungeon.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,076 Arc User

    This setup should keep players that are above rating caps when unscaled also above the ratings cap when scaled the majority of the time.

    This is exactly what we asked for. Took some time, but I'm glad it's here now.
    Make NWO great again, please....
  • sephiz#1200 sephiz Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    If we trying to fix scaling might as well check the new King of Spines mythic mount. The combat power and equip power are 50% higher than the equivalent legendary version but the IL for the equip power stays the same while the combat power IL gets doubled. I could see some argument about how combat power increasing non-linearly is intended but:

    Leg mount equip power => 10,000 stat points => 200 IL
    Mythic mount equip power => 15,000 stat points => 200 IL

    This most likely is not intended if we want better scaling. I expected 200*1.5= 300 IL for equip power and 100*1.5=150 IL for combat power.
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 449 Arc User


    That works if all players being scaled down are always at or above all of the rating caps for their unscaled item level. But when players aren't at the caps, then being scaled down they'd be over capped.

    Could you, please, elaborate why it would be a problem to be above the caps in old content? Is there some hidden mechanics?

    BTW: There are actual visible feats you are messing up with that. And I don't know how exactly the new healing formula will be, but shifting the power/crit ratio was messing up with healing as well.
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 339 Arc User
    I can answer the why. BiS gear players were trashing old content sub five minutes or so and leaving less geared players chasing after them the whole dungeon. Scaling was introduced to try to slow down content so that it was "more relevant" and to help lower geared players perform better in older content versus higher geared players. It is largely unpopular to have our stats changed and wonkified at their whim differently in every place we go to, but they are intent on closing the gaps between players and keeping old content relevant. Cause that Alliance Assault Coat I just got out of RTQ Tia is totally relevant .... >_>
  • unknowndramaunknowndrama Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 61 Arc User
    I can understand level 70 content being scaled down but one thing that i understand is why level 80 content is scaled..why is Liar of Mad Mage scaled...
  • carloswartune#5709 carloswartune Member Posts: 153 Arc User

    I can understand level 70 content being scaled down but one thing that i understand is why level 80 content is scaled..why is Liar of Mad Mage scaled...

    Because level doesn't have anything to do with it. If it did, EToS and Castle Ravenloft would be scaled in the same way (both level 70). Scaling is to limit the "power creep" to an item level close to that of the dungeon, so it's about item level, not actual level.
  • hastur905hastur905 Member Posts: 144 Arc User
    edited May 27
    So i have gone in and looked at the scaling. First glance, having not run the content yet, looks like the scaling is looking good with the exception of Malabogs Castle. Having looked different IL characters it looks like if u are stat capped for 90k (new trial) that is when you hit the caps in MC, however that is not the case in Lomm or CR, the other 2 dungeons i checked. It looks like you may need to increase the IL requirement for entry by 1000 and that would solve the issue of the scaling in that dungeon.
    Post edited by hastur905 on
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 339 Arc User
    Basically, every time new a new mod comes out, the previous mod will begin to scale. Because we will have new gear and raise our IL sufficiently for it to kick in. So everything previous to the most recent mod is scaled essentially. You just notice it more in the oldER content because it's further from you. At least, before. Hopefully proportional changes will help mitigate that.
  • canuck1canuck1 Member Posts: 17 Arc User
    Why Scale at all? - Get rid of scaling totally and have the dungeons have difficulty levels like MEs with the loot table set scaled to the difficulty you set the dungeon at - that way all dungeons and content is playable again and worth while to any level of player.

    Game better - youre welcome (send gifts directly to my account for the idea :P)
  • justtester#3228 justtester Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    So, I entered FBI on Preview and noticed quite a big stats loose, like ArPen 89.3k -> 56.9k, Def 84.9k -> 54.1k, Crit 86.9k -> 55.4k (not even at caps). For comparsion, in FBI on Live I have 60-61k stats (far above the cap). Also there was a noticeable power and HP loose.

    Do I misunderstand something or we indeed should have now stats at Zriel caps (90k) to have them also capped in dungeons like FBI and CN? And the farther from Zariel caps I stand the more stats I'll loose (in comparsion with same dungeon/trial/skirmish in mod18)?
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,173 Arc User

    So, I entered FBI on Preview and noticed quite a big stats loose, like ArPen 89.3k -> 56.9k, Def 84.9k -> 54.1k, Crit 86.9k -> 55.4k (not even at caps). For comparsion, in FBI on Live I have 60-61k stats (far above the cap). Also there was a noticeable power and HP loose.

    Do I misunderstand something or we indeed should have now stats at Zriel caps (90k) to have them also capped in dungeons like FBI and CN? And the farther from Zariel caps I stand the more stats I'll loose (in comparsion with same dungeon/trial/skirmish in mod18)?

    I tested FBI too and went down from 185k power to 117k and HP down from 410k to 256k. I guess a bit too harsh. Other stats seemed to scale according to intent.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 449 Arc User
    My understanding was it is using stat/IL ratio. So - if you have 80k in one stat at IL22k, you are severely overcapped, but if it is at 27k IL, you are severely undercapped. (needs to be checked)
  • geminisky59#9345 geminisky59 Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    canuck1 said:

    Why Scale at all? - Get rid of scaling totally and have the dungeons have difficulty levels like MEs with the loot table set scaled to the difficulty you set the dungeon at - that way all dungeons and content is playable again and worth while to any level of player.


    Game better - youre welcome (send gifts directly to my account for the idea :P)</blockq

    I think the reason why they they don’t don’t do this is because
    lack of enough players currently in the game to be able to populate the different tiers. So they force scaling on end game players as a way of punishment for actually succeeding in the game. Kinda counter productiveIMHO. If fhis game had more players we would probably not have scaling.

  • demarw2#2749 demarw2 Member Posts: 64 Arc User
    I don't understand the whole system. We can be Level 80 for about one year now. So every player has the chance to level up to 80. Why the Level 70 dungeons are still level 70? Why they aren't increased to level 80? Adjust mobs counterstats and the difficulty of the whole dungeon to level 80 and no scaling is needed anymore. Only for leveling dungeons (< 70).
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 449 Arc User
    edited May 27
    OK, I will summarize my point of view:

    Scaling is good if you want a low level character to participate in events. This version of scaling is unusable for that purpose in this game. (too cheap access to rank 8-9 enchants, low level chars have much better standing than well geared vets)

    As was already mentioned, for limiting player's performance somewhere you would have much easier life with caps. Put caps on Weapon Damage, Power and HP (careful here, tank's situation must be counted separately) and you have what is needed. If you want to be awesome, tinker with soft caps. Otherwise, just use hardcaps and be done with it.

    If you use all the knowledge you accumulated so far, this is work for 10 minutes. Straightforward, reproducible - and if by any chance anything goes awry, it could be easily tested.
  • nevernixnevernix Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    A "better" scaling may be more fair/natural Feeling/good… but one Question stays: for what (run scaled contened at all)?

    Or clearly said: this scaling makes old contend more challeging (difficult) for high lvl Player, what ist in principle ok.
    But if the possible reward is not "scaling" also, all changes to scaling are in my opinion meaningless (waste of time for ppl to run it and so: waste of time, devs develop it).

    eg.: up to last changes, i had nearly no chance (any more) to succseed LOOM in random (because of mimics) - so i canceled it regulary in randoms. Now it's again (by hard work) possible. with upcoming changes, i am quite sure, it's again not worth time to try it. there is Nothing droping, i am interested in … so why to waste my (life) time?
    In my opinion. in proper old scaled content (of mod M) should drop also the stuf from mod M-1 (or M-2 depending of difficulty and time, to succeed).

    Nix*
    (tank, lvl 80, GS 26,4k)
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 449 Arc User
    edited May 27
    .
    Post edited by rikitaki on
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 349 Arc User
    edited May 27



    arazith07 said:

    I feel like it should be only power, HP, and weapon damage that gets scaled. All the other stats, if you have enough for harder content, you should have enough for earlier content.

    That works if all players being scaled down are always at or above all of the rating caps for their unscaled item level. But when players aren't at the caps, then being scaled down they'd be over capped.
    That's a non issue in any practical way. The only real issue is that players might redistribute their stats to cap other stats like crit avoid and deflect to perform better or trying to convert vast amount of stats away to weird benefits because they have an overflow of stats to give out.

    But the whole situation is arguing against the niche or nonexistent amount of players trying to invest in builds for low level content or the marginal case in what if people do find something that helps farm content that is sent to the periphery and providing players with something interesting and different to do?
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    So with this new scaling system, I have to build my character to meet the 90k stat caps even if I am not interested in or not ready for the Zariel trial, because if I don't, I get penalized with overly harsh scaling in older content. Is that the gist of it?
  • evemjevemj Member Posts: 110 Arc User
    chemjeff said:

    So with this new scaling system, I have to build my character to meet the 90k stat caps even if I am not interested in or not ready for the Zariel trial, because if I don't, I get penalized with overly harsh scaling in older content. Is that the gist of it?

    Yes, but you can also remove your equipment to avoid the scaling and end up with... better stats.
  • djnasty93djnasty93 Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    whats the issue behind nerfing Ebonized Armor? we got kiuno of fured bear working as BIS item for 3 mods...
  • oocuper#9569 oocuper Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    Do not scale DOWN the players but scale UP the dungeons, make everything level 80. otherwhise scaling will always have issues.
    HR fan but not the Mod16 one.
    Currently with 3 mains (Ranger/Barb/Pally)
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