Infernal Citadel on Low Geared Characters

thefabricant · February 2020

Having seen many comments stating that Infernal Citadel is for BiS players only, myself and a few friends decided to do some challenge runs to see how much gear you can remove and still finish the dungeon. Note: We could still probably remove more than is removed in these runs, since there was still room to remove stuff.

First run conditions:

No Stones of Health
No Scrolls of Mass Life
Under 130,000 power
No Journals
No Legendary Mount powers
No pet bonuses on dps

This was not very difficult and after some calibration, the second run we did like this took us only 35 minutes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJPhXy9FYhM

After this, we took off some more gear because that was rather easy. The new requirements were as follows:

No Stones of Health
No Scrolls of Mass Life
Under 100,000 power
DpS have a maximum of 300,000 Hitpoints
No Journals
No Legendary Mount powers
No pet bonuses on dps
Only 2 artifacts allowed, 1 active artifact and 1 artifact to complete a set
Weapon and Armour enchantments cannot be higher than rank 9
No ToMM weapons allowed (using mountaineer weapons)
Ordinary enchantments no higher than rank 8
Tacticals in utility are rank 7
Insignias maximum rank is epic
Only cheap consumables allowed (black ice overloads, potions that persist through death for example wild storm elixir or flask of potency)
No VIP (it was on preview, we didn't want to absolutely destroy our live characters to do this so we did it on preview)
Pet gear from undermountain campaign or blue pet gear purchasable off the AH.

Here is a video of this run:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbkzqwfzd3A
Note: It cuts to the successful attempts, in the video description you can find a link to the full video which was ~1h 40 minutes long.
Here is the combat log and screenshots of the gear for run 2:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/326032679029964800/681244275421609986/Combatlog.7z

This was actually a bit challenging and took some time to finish, but we did finish it and this does illustrate that a team which is very far from best in slot (and probably should not be in the dungeon in the first place) can finish it. Note: the second boss is melee unfriendly (and I am not denying that) and the loot for infernal citadel is bad (I am not denying that either), but saying that the dungeon is only accessible to people with BiS gear is false.

ecrana · February 2020

Good stuff. I can hear it now.

"B...b...b..but if it's not the gear holding us back, what else could it be?!?"

krumple01 · February 2020

thefabricant said:
Having seen many comments stating that Infernal Citadel is for BiS players only, myself and a few friends decided to do some challenge runs to see how much gear you can remove and still finish the dungeon. Note: We could still probably remove more than is removed in these runs, since there was still room to remove stuff

Although I agree with you and believe this is possible, the fact still remains, a huge majority of players think you need more than just BiS, (i know im going beyond in that statement, its for effect)

I have been kicked out of parties, after being invited to fill in for someone leaving, I get asked to take their place. I get the invite, stand in the dungeon for 5 minute while they look over my character and then without even testing me, I'm ported back out of the dungeon.

The silly thing is, I have completed the dungeon over a dozen times now. It's absurd how the majority of the player base discriminates over the most irrelevant things. It makes the game no fun and it just becomes an annoying, "will this group accept me?" nonsense.

arazith07 · February 2020

This honestly is the biggest problem with the community, they think gear is everything and anything less than perfect is not good enough. With the exception of ToMM, all the content is pretty easy once the player understands and learn the mechanics and patterns of the bosses or open world mobs. Luckily most of the groups being formed are between friends and guild mates.

Every new map, we get a slough of complaints about the content being too hard, but they subside, either through learning and adapting or just leaving due to refusing to adapt. All without too much change from the developers (mod 16 is an exception due to completely new system).

hadestemplar · February 2020

@thefabricant

congratulations for runs and that you where not afraiding to take a challenge.

Now this thing that players can complete even without BiS gear is known for some times.. However, most players fail runs due simple reason.
Incapability to pay attention to whats happening in game(too much adrenaline in fingers).
Other thing is that, they don't want to learn from own mistakes.

And now main reason why players want BiS geared party to take latest dungeons is that, most of Neverwinter community still do live with pre mod 16 mentality. Where dungeons are done by speedruning.
About 14 days ago I where in mSP dungeon with pub q. One player keep raging every step in that dungeon. Someone make step in left instead in right and he was melting from raging. Demanding to votekick any player who do not listen him. Though he was in bottom by dealt dmg, by tanking and over all by Item level.

Most players want to make as many dungeon run in shortest time duration, and reason of that is cuz game reward is RNG.

Now since you and party completed IC with lower IL, now here is other challenge.. Take same run with no Paladin in party.

Reason of it is that,, I keep hearing that all latest dungeons since mod 16 are based for heal paladin, and other heal classes(cleric and Soulweaver(warlock)), are simply irrelevant..

I was in LoMM run couple days ago, random pug run, and we had warlock healer.. Party abandoned run, not due low IL, not due lack of experience. The main reason where that healer was not Paladin.

Developers can improve game as much they want,, but it will not get better if players will not improve themself.
Time to abolish this long lasting myth's that only certain classes area viable.

tchefi · February 2020

hadestemplar#9918 said:
Other thing is that, they don't want to learn from own mistakes.

That's exactly the biggest reason.
Interestingly, most of the successful businessmen, sportmen, scientists, etc will tell you that the road to the success is paved with failures.

I am amazed to hear some people saying TIC is too hard after only so few weeks since this dungeon is available on live.... From my point a vue it isn't anywhere close to a suffisant length of time at a rate of 1/day to have the mechanics more or less engraved in my reptilian brain.
I'm wondering how much of those people are able to ice-skate, or if they gave up after falling only 10 times ^^.

aerhythia · February 2020

hadestemplar#9918 said:

I was in LoMM run couple days ago, random pug run, and we had warlock healer.. Party abandoned run, not due low IL, not due lack of experience. The main reason where that healer was not Paladin.

1st boss don't draw aggro from tank, stand near stairs on 2nd boss boulders and 3rd boss lol Warlock might be the best at keeping squishy tanks alive.

Then again if the whole team abandons the dungeon based on the healers class it's probably not a group you want to run with anyways.

hadestemplar#9918 said:
Now this thing that players can complete even without BiS gear is known for some times.. However, most players fail runs due simple reason.
Incapability to pay attention to whats happening in game(too much adrenaline in fingers).
Other thing is that, they don't want to learn from own mistakes.

Personally I will always make (small) mistakes. I mean GG to a low geared and perfectly played run. For me it's rare to have runs where I'm 100% satisfied with my performance. If a game is too unforgivable it's usually not enjoyable for me even if I beat it in the end (e.g. something like Sekiro that actively wants to slow down your completion time on certain parts like a 30 years old arcade game)

callumf · February 2020

aerhythia#3255 said:

hadestemplar#9918 said:

I was in LoMM run couple days ago, random pug run, and we had warlock healer.. Party abandoned run, not due low IL, not due lack of experience. The main reason where that healer was not Paladin.
1st boss don't draw aggro from tank, stand near stairs on 2nd boss boulders and 3rd boss lol Warlock might be the best at keeping squishy tanks alive.

Then again if the whole team abandons the dungeon based on the healers class it's probably not a group you want to run with anyways.
hadestemplar#9918 said:
Now this thing that players can complete even without BiS gear is known for some times.. However, most players fail runs due simple reason.
Incapability to pay attention to whats happening in game(too much adrenaline in fingers).
Other thing is that, they don't want to learn from own mistakes.
Personally I will always make (small) mistakes. I mean GG to a low geared and perfectly played run. For me it's rare to have runs where I'm 100% satisfied with my performance. If a game is too unforgivable it's usually not enjoyable for me even if I beat it in the end (e.g. something like Sekiro that actively wants to slow down your completion time on certain parts like a 30 years old arcade game)

This is very apt and perceptive "If a game is too unforgivable it's usually not enjoyable for me even if I beat it in the end" this is so true for me also. If one tiny mistake leads to a team wipe then that content isn't for me.

That's why I quit tank before Mod16 and moved to DPS.

And then they made it that DPS take an hour to get in Random Q... so I built a pseudo-tank build on my DPS... and Q as Tank...

jules · February 2020

hadestemplar#9918 said:

And now main reason why players want BiS geared party to take latest dungeons is that, most of Neverwinter community still do live with pre mod 16 mentality. Where dungeons are done by speedruning.

Yeah. "We can't do it with that kind of dps" for example, with 23k+ 155k+ people (And no SW... jk) and decent gear = "We can't do it as fast as I would like and you are inconveniencing my rush to chest."

The issue with IC is the same as it always is: You find a nice party with people willing to TRY first, its fine. You find a party with overmotivated younglings (jumpers) or some adults with the attention span of a goldfish and you are HAMSTER.

So, trying around and asking myself... is it possible? Sure it is. Do I want to explain myself for half an hour before trying to run it? Nah.
Would I rather watch TV? You bet...

utookmynick · February 2020

NW has always been low on the group coordination type play until recently. Too many people are just solo players looking for pick up play. They're only interested in dealing the most damage and the "action element of avoiding the red". There's no concept of aggro management or coordination in these public groups. People even seem to try their absolute best to not say anything (and when you do, it seems there's always someone that doesn't speak the language).

That's the issue with public groups. It's a gamble. Relative to most MMOs, especially some in the past, NW isn't difficult.

One thing to point out for first video (and not trying to diminish the accomplishment or the important point that you can easily/cheaply gear for IC), the restrictions on that one doesn't affect the healer or tank that much. This is clearly evident by looking at the damage taken on the first boss and how much blue shield is loss or replaced on a crit heal. It's not surprising that a team of players that are already very experienced with IC, each other and on voice chat would have no problem breezing through it.

Unknown · February 2020

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callumf · February 2020

The speed run thing and reward vs time factor is REALLY important here.

Its a mentality issue - you get reward per run based on RNG ergo you have to do the max amount of successful runs in the shortest space of time to maximize income [AD and itemz]. For those type of players its about maximum reward vs time spent. Fair enough.

I was running an Epic Dungeon [Malabog] the other day where one Barbie was just sprinting off alone, doing big DPS then dying and needing to be picked up. Due to scaling this lead to others dying during the rezz process. The barbie wasn't killing any mobs, just wounding all of them. This barbie died like 8 or 9 times in 15 minutes or so.

The whole thing took 30 minutes or so and was very painful, but also fun at times. I went full tank mode and held aggro which helped a LOT, but it was hard when the Kamikazi Barbie was so far ahead at each mob group. I tried to keep the party together, but oh no, s/he knew best ...

callumf · February 2020

As to the OP - great work. Thank you.

A well managed team of good players with solid builds and good communication and knowledge of a dungeon should be able to complete most stuff, given time.

You proved a good point, well made

mamalion1234 · February 2020

i had today similar expierence with random group with low dps. Last boss the team put the fires on the correct tiles with no mistake and we did it.

chemjeff · February 2020

Well if this dungeon really is accessible to a random team, then that is good news. FINALLY some new content for the non-BIS crowd.

arazith07 · February 2020

What do you mean finally new content for non-BIS crowd? What was Mod 15 and 16? Or the parts of 17 that wasn't ToMM? You couldn't let the "BiS crowd" have one trial? Are you really so greedy that every bit of content needs to be for those who aren't BiS? What would be the point of progression then? What goal would people have to aspire and work for?

Unknown · February 2020

This content has been removed.

chemjeff · February 2020

arazith07 said:
What do you mean finally new content for non-BIS crowd? What was Mod 15 and 16? Or the parts of 17 that wasn't ToMM? You couldn't let the "BiS crowd" have one trial? Are you really so greedy that every bit of content needs to be for those who aren't BiS? What would be the point of progression then? What goal would people have to aspire and work for?

Believe it or not, there are more players besides those who are brand new, and those who are BIS.

What was the new content of Mod 17 that wasn't TOMM? Oh yeah, it was more Master Expeditions. The same stuff that we've been doing all of Mod 16.

The devs gave the BIS crowd a great gift that was TOMM but gave almost nothing to everyone else. You like TOMM? Great good for you. Maybe next time the devs decide to create super-hard BIS-only content like TOMM, they can also create new content for everyone else at the same time.

chemjeff · February 2020

magdalena#1708 said:
@arazith07 If you have nobody to fight with, I am here to help.
The problem was 1 year of no new content, not that the Trial was BiS.
If the Trial would have come with 2 versions or a new dungeon players would not have argued among themselves.
Everybody wants new content, this is a given.
@chemjeff
What do you mean you did not know it can be done by pug?
Gosh, I post inv for TIC on all channels, PE, Avernus , everywhere since day 1, 2-3 times a day. The only excuse for not responding to my invites is bc you play on console.
.

@magdalena, no I have not seen your messages.

arazith07 · February 2020

chemjeff said:

arazith07 said:
What do you mean finally new content for non-BIS crowd? What was Mod 15 and 16? Or the parts of 17 that wasn't ToMM? You couldn't let the "BiS crowd" have one trial? Are you really so greedy that every bit of content needs to be for those who aren't BiS? What would be the point of progression then? What goal would people have to aspire and work for?
Believe it or not, there are more players besides those who are brand new, and those who are BIS.

What was the new content of Mod 17 that wasn't TOMM? Oh yeah, it was more Master Expeditions. The same stuff that we've been doing all of Mod 16.

The devs gave the BIS crowd a great gift that was TOMM but gave almost nothing to everyone else. You like TOMM? Great good for you. Maybe next time the devs decide to create super-hard BIS-only content like TOMM, they can also create new content for everyone else at the same time.

They already stated that for new hard content moving forward, there will be a story/easy mode. And BTW I have not stepped foot in ToMM, and I am perfectly fine with it. I can just wait a few mods until I can do with my mid-game guild/alliance. As far as Mid level content in M17, I'm more of one that prefers having items to chase rather than a new dungeon that doesn't drop much. Mainly because whether it's Master expeditions, dungeon, skirmish, etc, it'll get old after a week and it becomes just a grind for x item(s).

Yeah sure it sucks that we don't have access to the rings when they sold for millions, but those players did put in the work to get to BiS and to practice the Trial, so it's not like they didn't work for it. I wonder how many more will try and put in that effort for when the new difficult trial comes in July?

chemjeff · March 2020

arazith07 said:

chemjeff said:

arazith07 said:
What do you mean finally new content for non-BIS crowd? What was Mod 15 and 16? Or the parts of 17 that wasn't ToMM? You couldn't let the "BiS crowd" have one trial? Are you really so greedy that every bit of content needs to be for those who aren't BiS? What would be the point of progression then? What goal would people have to aspire and work for?
Believe it or not, there are more players besides those who are brand new, and those who are BIS.

What was the new content of Mod 17 that wasn't TOMM? Oh yeah, it was more Master Expeditions. The same stuff that we've been doing all of Mod 16.

The devs gave the BIS crowd a great gift that was TOMM but gave almost nothing to everyone else. You like TOMM? Great good for you. Maybe next time the devs decide to create super-hard BIS-only content like TOMM, they can also create new content for everyone else at the same time.
They already stated that for new hard content moving forward, there will be a story/easy mode. And BTW I have not stepped foot in ToMM, and I am perfectly fine with it. I can just wait a few mods until I can do with my mid-game guild/alliance. As far as Mid level content in M17, I'm more of one that prefers having items to chase rather than a new dungeon that doesn't drop much. Mainly because whether it's Master expeditions, dungeon, skirmish, etc, it'll get old after a week and it becomes just a grind for x item(s).

Yeah sure it sucks that we don't have access to the rings when they sold for millions, but those players did put in the work to get to BiS and to practice the Trial, so it's not like they didn't work for it. I wonder how many more will try and put in that effort for when the new difficult trial comes in July?

I am definitely looking forward to having two versions of trials again, "normal" and "epic".

Honestly I wish the devs would bring back the Bronze/Silver/Gold method for giving rewards, at least on a conceptual level. This allowed most teams to get *some* reward, even if it wasn't the top reward. Maybe there could be a chest at the end of Phase 1 of TOMM where players could get a BTA ring (max +4), and perhaps a rare chance at an unbound +4 or +5 ring, so that teams that can only beat Phase 1 could at least get something.
\
Let's make all content accessible at SOME level for all but the very worst teams. This doesn't mean everyone gets a +5 unbound gold ring. It means that even bad teams are rewarded commensurately for getting marginally better and for small achievements. It also means that the devs' hard work in developing content is being enjoyed by a wider audience. It is sad that the devs spent all that time in Mod 17 developing a trial that only a very small minority got to enjoy, and - let's be honest - they are going to have to go back and nerf anyway, in the future, when they decide to open it up to a wider audience either via random queue or otherwise.

What percentage of the active playerbase has even seen Phase 3 of TOMM? I am willing to bet, less than 10%.

What percentage of the active playerbase has never even seen TOMM at all, even though they have the sufficient stats for it, just based on the knowledge that from a rewards point of view, it's pointless to even try if you can't finish the whole thing?

This was by the way the same philosophy behind the original Castle Never, where teams who couldn't finish the whole dungeon could instead just kill the first boss and get at least a ring for their troubles. And back in the day, it wasn't a cakewalk either, it was difficult even just killing the first boss. Teams that could accomplish that only, got rewarded commensurately for their efforts - not a BIS weapon (which was the reward for finishing the whole thing), but a very good ring. The devs should adopt the same philosophy in all upcoming trials.

chemjeff · March 2020

Oh and by the way.
It is rather amusing that one of the characters in this "low-geared" run is sporting 2 gold TOMM rings.
Suffice it to say, if a player can't afford BIS equipment, he/she probably can't afford gold TOMM rings either.

It's a common complaint around here, it seems, that "fresh level 80's" can do endgame content. I don't think that is a problem, personally. But, it would be an interesting test, I think, to try to do TIC only with random gear that you get from the Undermountain campaign storyline, and from Master Expeditions. So, can a team do TIC if they were only using Crash Guards, Ebonized rings, and the Mod 16 companion gear? Also, let's assume that this team is so completely fresh and new that they haven't done any of the pre-Mod 16 content, so no Heels of Fury or Fured Kiuno or Terrored Grips. And no boons either, since this "fresh level 80" team hasn't yet done any of the old campaigns. If this team could squeak by with just barely sufficient item level to enter the dungeon, could they finish it based on talent alone?

I would offer my talents to help test this hypothesis, but Sharp thinks I am a terrible tank, even though he has never observed me tanking in any form or fashion. Oh well. But it would be interesting at least.

thefabricant · March 2020

chemjeff said:
Oh and by the way.
It is rather amusing that one of the characters in this "low-geared" run is sporting 2 gold TOMM rings.
Suffice it to say, if a player can't afford BIS equipment, he/she probably can't afford gold TOMM rings either.

It takes 2 days worth of AD to buy one these rings assuming that you limit yourself to the 200k cap. There is no functional difference between legendary and epic, the character in that run was overcapped on accuracy with either of them, by a significant amount. The only reason I own the legendary version is because I like the colour orange. But feel free to lie to yourself if you like. There is also functionally no difference between using these rings and using the ebonized rings but believe it or not I do not feel like farming the ebonized rings to prove it and I would suggest to a new player to buy these epic rings and save yourself the trouble, they have more stats and take far less effort to get.

chemjeff said:
Oh and by the way.

It's a common complaint around here, it seems, that "fresh level 80's" can do endgame content. I don't think that is a problem, personally. But, it would be an interesting test, I think, to try to do TIC only with random gear that you get from the Undermountain campaign storyline, and from Master Expeditions. So, can a team do TIC if they were only using Crash Guards, Ebonized rings, and the Mod 16 companion gear? Also, let's assume that this team is so completely fresh and new that they haven't done any of the pre-Mod 16 content, so no Heels of Fury or Fured Kiuno or Terrored Grips. And no boons either, since this "fresh level 80" team hasn't yet done any of the old campaigns. If this team could squeak by with just barely sufficient item level to enter the dungeon, could they finish it based on talent alone?

I would offer my talents to help test this hypothesis, but Sharp thinks I am a terrible tank, even though he has never observed me tanking in any form or fashion. Oh well. But it would be interesting at least.

We limited the pet gear to any pet gear obtained from the undermountain quest line and blue items purchasable on the auction house, which sell for like 8k ad. The gear is easily farmable in a few days, the things which would take longest to obtain is the artifacts and the bondings, which you could obtain within 1 month. I see no reason to do a run with less gear, a new player has the entire game's worth of content to explore, there is plenty to do and being unable to unlock IC that early is still very early on into their time in the game.

chemjeff · March 2020

No, Sharp, you don't get it.
200k for one ring is a huge investment for a new character, considering all the upgrades that new characters have to perform to their characters anyway.

200k is only "no big deal" if you don't have anything else to spend the AD on.

New characters are, very likely, going to be running ME's anyway, in order to get RAD, to pay for all of those upgrades. They will likely get the Ebonized rings before they get enough disposable AD income to pay for TOMM rings, even if they are "only" 200k.

You really are out of touch with what new characters are going through. I don't expect you to do another run. You made the point that you wanted to make. But the gear you chose is probably not what new characters are going to be sporting.

I would never recommend players buy TOMM rings. I don't think newbies should be financing the billionaires.

thefabricant · March 2020

chemjeff said:
No, Sharp, you don't get it.
200k for one ring is a huge investment for a new character, considering all the upgrades that new characters have to perform to their characters anyway.

New characters are, very likely, going to be running ME's anyway, in order to get RAD, to pay for all of those upgrades. They will likely get the Ebonized rings before they get enough disposable AD income to pay for TOMM rings, even if they are "only" 200k.

You really are out of touch with what new characters are going through. I don't expect you to do another run. You made the point that you wanted to make. But the gear you chose is probably not what new characters are going to be sporting.

I would never recommend players buy TOMM rings. I don't think newbies should be financing the billionaires.

That 200k AD buys you 8k more stats than you would have with just ebonized rings. 200k ad for 8k stats is 1 of the best ad to stat investments you can make in this game. I am also fairly certain that the players who have a ton of AD are also the ones who can tell you the best ways to invest your AD. Its funny, the new players who do listen to me and do ask me questions, tend to progress a LOT faster than the ones who don't and its not because I am throwing them free items either.

Most of the people running tomm and selling rings by the way, are not billionaires. Feel free to spite them all you like, its not hurting the actual billionaires who stopped running ToMM months ago because they got bored of it.

chemjeff · March 2020

thefabricant said:

That 200k AD buys you 8k more stats than you would have with just ebonized rings.

If you had nothing else to spend the AD on, sure. New players have to invest in much more.

And that 200k is an investment in only one stat. Which is a secondary DPS stat (Armor Penetration being the primary one). New characters need to reach stat caps on a whole bunch of stats. I would rather have new players invest 200k in getting their artifacts refined, or getting their bondings upgraded, or getting their augment companion upgraded. All of these upgrades will help new players in the LONG TERM, building their foundation for future success. Not by investing 200k in one ring that only provides one single stat, and with a damage bonus that can be acquired FOR FREE by running Master Expeditions, that they are going to be running anyway.

Again you are taking all of this for granted.

And I don't advocate that new players be financing the billionaires.

thefabricant · March 2020

chemjeff said:

thefabricant said:

That 200k AD buys you 8k more stats than you would have with just ebonized rings.
If you had nothing else to spend the AD on, sure. New players have to invest in much more.

And that 200k is an investment in only one stat. Which is a secondary DPS stat (Armor Penetration being the primary one). New characters need to reach stat caps on a whole bunch of stats. I would rather have new players invest 200k in getting their artifacts refined, or getting their bondings upgraded, or getting their augment companion upgraded. All of these upgrades will help new players in the LONG TERM, building their foundation for future success. Not by investing 200k in one ring that only provides one single stat, and with a damage bonus that can be acquired FOR FREE by running Master Expeditions, that they are going to be running anyway.

Again you are taking all of this for granted.

And I don't advocate that new players be financing the billionaires.

You tell them to invest in whatever you like, they can listen to you and make a fool of themselves, or they can listen to me and end up with a working character. Funnily enough, there are people who do take my advice when making new characters on how to gear up, the very few who ask me. They usually end up at end game in 1-2 months. I am not going to use this comment as a means to explain how to do that. The characters in those pictures above are a very good indicator on what is important to aim for.

And as I said in my previous comment, you have a very strange conception of what billionaires do to make AD, because they aren't running ToMM. Most of the players running ToMM have just as much AD as you do, so maybe you should think a little bit more about that.

chemjeff · March 2020

You are working against what would help players progress *correctly*. I see a lot of new players in my alliance sport shiny things with high Item Level, because it was "cheap" and "everyone is wearing it". That is the wrong point of view IMO. The first investments should be those things that will build a foundation for later success. That means high-rank bondings. That means mythic artifacts. They are shiny too but they are either not for sale on the AH (mythic artis) or very very expensive on the AH (rank 15 bondings) and so out of reach for the new player. I don't want a new player going into a dungeon with cheap rank 10 bondings and some TOMM ring. I want the player to have rank 13+ bondings and whatever ring they could scrounge up. Because that higher rank bonding will have a much more lasting effect on the player's future success. Not some ring that will be obsolete by Mod 20 anyway.

thefabricant · March 2020

chemjeff said:
You are working against what would help players progress *correctly*. I see a lot of new players in my alliance sport shiny things with high Item Level, because it was "cheap" and "everyone is wearing it". That is the wrong point of view IMO. The first investments should be those things that will build a foundation for later success. That means high-rank bondings. That means mythic artifacts. They are shiny too but they are either not for sale on the AH (artis) or very very expensive on the AH (rank 15 bondings) and so out of reach for the new player. I don't want a new player going into a dungeon with cheap rank 10 bondings and some TOMM ring. I want the player to have rank 13+ bondings and whatever ring they could scrounge up. Because that higher rank bonding will have a much more lasting effect on the player's future success. Not some ring that will be obsolete by Mod 20 anyway.

The "correct" way to progress in module 18 is to farm juma ad nausium, collect 100,000 AD each day and then buy or craft bondings + 2 rings. Farm the gear you need and get some random rank 8 or 9 enchantments. Unlock the necessary campaigns for the dungeons you want to run and if you wish to, sort out your boons (they add a very small amount to stats, they are optional, not mandatory). Mod 20, in case you were aware, is almost year away. A new player has plenty of time in between now and then to take advantage of having them.

Those artifacts you think are so important are worse than equipping a ToMM ring in terms of AD - Stats. Aside from ranking up a main artifact, you would want to buy ToMM rings first.

kevin · March 2020

i tried my first IC today with Mylah and CHINNY and it,was fun learned a lot AHWOOOO (cavedog)

chemjeff · March 2020

thefabricant said:

The "correct" way to progress in module 18 is to farm juma ad nausium, collect 100,000 AD each day and then buy or craft bondings + 2 rings. Farm the gear you need and get some random rank 8 or 9 enchantments. Unlock the necessary campaigns for the dungeons you want to run and if you wish to, sort out your boons (they add a very small amount to stats, they are optional, not mandatory). Mod 20, in case you were aware, is almost year away. A new player has plenty of time in between now and then to take advantage of having them.

Those artifacts you think are so important are worse than equipping a ToMM ring in terms of AD - Stats. Aside from ranking up a main artifact, you would want to buy ToMM rings first.

This is so short-sighted.

Bondings - we agree, very important, rank those up first.

But all the rest - you are neglecting all the other things that new players have to do to upgrade their character, that will help them in the LONG TERM.

Such as:

Upgrading their primary augment companion.
Acquiring their five active companions, and upgrading them.
Acquiring the mounts for the correct insignia bonuses - the ones with the good bonuses, aren't cheap (obviously).
Getting an epic mount (not so useful for stats, but definitely useful for long-term QOL).
Getting four actual artifacts, not just 1 artifact and 3 fake ones from the Undermountain starter pack, and refining them to at least epic.
Getting the gear for the correct 3pc neck-waist-arti bonus that they will be using.
Getting high-rank runestones for their companion gear.
Getting enchantments for their gear - which, while not providing so much in stats, DO provide long-term WEALTH for their character should the meta change and they need to readjust their character.

These upgrades will help the player in the LONG TERM, way more than a single TOMM ring.

And you just took all of that for granted.

After all the devs have already said that they want to make it impossible for us to cap our stats for new content. So, I would rather have new characters invest in TRADE-ABLE versions of stats (enchants, runes) in order to swap around stats, rather than ones that are not.

Infernal Citadel on Low Geared Characters

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