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“What’s the point of playing any more if you're not in the elite?”
autumnwitch
Member Posts: 1,141 Arc User
So, I had a guildie ask me today, “What’s the point of playing any more if you're not in the elite?”
She recently found out about the scaling of LOMM in MOD18 and she’s done with NW. It took the last of the wind out of her sails.
She’s been playing on now for more than a year, closer to two, spends real money every month, has a few different toons and finally worked her HAMSTER off to get really great stats for LOMM so it’s not a struggle where she can help out others and the alliance. Now that they are going to scale LOMM she’s not only feels all her hard work to get great stats and equipment has been a waste of time she will also now be more a liability in LOMM cuz she’s getting nerfed.
You know what? I didn’t know what to tell her. I agree totally. If they are just going to nerf us every time there is a new mod, I don’t see the point either.
I would love for a Dev or Chris to answer this because I am finding it harder and harder to motivate my friends to keep playing if we just keep getting nerfed each new mod.
Please stop punishing us for playing.
She recently found out about the scaling of LOMM in MOD18 and she’s done with NW. It took the last of the wind out of her sails.
She’s been playing on now for more than a year, closer to two, spends real money every month, has a few different toons and finally worked her HAMSTER off to get really great stats for LOMM so it’s not a struggle where she can help out others and the alliance. Now that they are going to scale LOMM she’s not only feels all her hard work to get great stats and equipment has been a waste of time she will also now be more a liability in LOMM cuz she’s getting nerfed.
You know what? I didn’t know what to tell her. I agree totally. If they are just going to nerf us every time there is a new mod, I don’t see the point either.
I would love for a Dev or Chris to answer this because I am finding it harder and harder to motivate my friends to keep playing if we just keep getting nerfed each new mod.
Please stop punishing us for playing.
Boudica's Sisters - A Guild For Introverts
18
Comments
Usually I respond by encouraging them to just keep grinding/work on campaigns while they wait for runs. Sometime I am brutally honest with them and state the truth that if they keep chasing BiS/end game, it will be a disappointment due to the high expectations of end game demand on caps/stats/items/etc with every new mods.
At the start of mod16, the devs made it known that only the two newest "zones""dungeons" will not be scale, so for mod18 that would be ToMM and IC.
I do hope the Dev look into scaling and it impacts on players like your guild mate and mine; make some changes quickly to retain these players.
If I get to a point where I can run over content I should not be punished for doing so. I put the time and AD into the game and I should not have it taken away. If they don't want people to progress then get rid of levelling all together and make all content the same difficulty. See, it makes no sense. You can't have a game that promotes progression then say, well now that you have progressed, we're going to take some back because we don't like the idea of you, well, you know, progressing.
I'm nearly done with this game. I've put up with so much and kept telling myself, I can deal with. I dealt with the MOD16 mess, I dealt with stuff be broken for months and years. I've dealt with lacklustre loot, broken events, support that has been less than helpful (but has got better recently), I've dealt with infuriating RNG. All of that I've just told myself it might get better or is just the way it is.
But them actively nerfing me every mod? I can't do it. I can't keep playing a game and spending every month just to have what I doing be taken away, because I did EXACTLY what I am supposed to be doing. And let me tell you I am a golden customer for Cryptic. I have spent 1000s on this game over the years, recruited lots of players, and been a cheerleader for them online, because it was freaking fun.
However, this stuff where they nerf me because I put the time and money into the game? That is not fun. They can have it.
It also has the potential to prevent exploits via multi-boxing with alt accounts.
As a guild/Alliance leader I heard and read it all. If they don’t get runs, they claimed people are being elitists, if they do get runs they complaint about not getting good loots. If their class get adjusted/nerf they claimed they had enough and threatened to quit. If dungeons become too easy, they find it boring. When the game developers make system changes to the game, ie scaling, it affect everyone, some takes it too personally.
Scaling is bad imo but if it here to stay, I hope people understand how it work and what to expect from it as they progress in the game. It is self defeating to reach certain levels only to be scaled down to much lower stats you work hard to increase.
> Scaling is necessary to make older content still at least somewhat challenging. However, the scaling itself is still off at times and I'm sure is still a work in progress. If not it needs to be worked on.
I can not disagree more. Why is scaling necessary? To what end? To make six year old content challenging to BIS/near-BIS? Why on Earth would they (I used to be part of that crowd before I quit this game) seek to run that content? They would only do it if there's something worth farming there (gear-wise there isn't, and hasn't been for quite some time), or because they enjoy that area of the world map (in which case many players, new & old, enjoy being able to steamroll it).
As others have posted here and elsewhere: The elite (and likely a minority) population of this game should not be the standard by which the game is primarily focused on alone. Full stop.
Scaling is an abomination. It negates one of the main fundamental points of a game like this: To progress. To grow stronger. Negating this cycle also flies in the face of human psychology with predictable negative results.
As for giving Cryptic more time to tune scaling.... Not a chance. They've had close to a year, and it's still a mess even after they've tinkered with it. Frankly, they need to get rid of it. There isn't inherently any shame in acknowledging mistakes. Indeed, it's the way towards growth, improvement, and possibly success.
> (Quote)
> Challenging to who? And why should it be?
>
> If I get to a point where I can run over content I should not be punished for doing so. I put the time and AD into the game and I should not have it taken away. If they don't want people to progress then get rid of levelling all together and make all content the same difficulty. See, it makes no sense. You can't have a game that promotes progression then say, well now that you have progressed, we're going to take some back because we don't like the idea of you, well, you know, progressing.
>
> I'm nearly done with this game. I've put up with so much and kept telling myself, I can deal with. I dealt with the MOD16 mess, I dealt with stuff be broken for months and years. I've dealt with lacklustre loot, broken events, support that has been less than helpful (but has got better recently), I've dealt with infuriating RNG. All of that I've just told myself it might get better or is just the way it is.
>
> But them actively nerfing me every mod? I can't do it. I can't keep playing a game and spending every month just to have what I doing be taken away, because I did EXACTLY what I am supposed to be doing. And let me tell you I am a golden customer for Cryptic. I have spent 1000s on this game over the years, recruited lots of players, and been a cheerleader for them online, because it was freaking fun.
>
> However, this stuff where they nerf me because I put the time and money into the game? That is not fun. They can have it.
It's your call, but I ask you to re-read what you typed above. Put up with? For years on end? It has the hallmarks of an abusive relationship, and we both know how to put a stop to those: Walk away.
I reiterate: It's your choice. I can share my personal experience: I quit NW, and my peace of mind, real life advancement, and time use all improved once I did.
I wish you the same. Godspeed.
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> You wouldn't have to pick a specific instance, just queue up with random queue for the rAD. Of course there is no actual loot worth repeat farming in old content. Beyond that, think of things from the perspective of a new player. What fun can they have if high level players speedrun the place and just steamroll everything? It already happens even now in pre-60 dungeons.
New players experience is the responsibility of the devs - no one else. Additionally, veteran players should not be thrown under the bus for new players, which is precisely what Cryptic spent almost all of 2019 doing. Not surprisingly there has been a mass exodus of veteran players, and new players are now more clueless than ever, even though Cryptic has made it easier than at any other point in NW's history to level up, gain powerful gear quickly, and boost item level (but without learning the ropes).
You ask that we think of the new players' experience, but you completely avoid asking about the veteran players' experience. Your attitude is both presumptuous and arrogant as it maintains that veterans should just turn the other cheek - presumably because you think they 'have enough', etc. Who are you to say that another player's time and experience is worth less than a newbie who has most definitely *not* put in the time and effort yet?
If you want to cuddle newbies, then keep them separate from veterans. Good luck seeing them learn and be mentored. (And no, it is not the responsibility of veterans to teach newbies. Cryptic can get its <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> together and for once code meaningful tutorials *with accurate tool-tips*.)
> The issue with leveling or “early” dungeons isn’t scaling; the problem is the community as a whole.
> When I run a random leveling queue, I can spot the new players rather quickly. I strive to stick with them and move at their pace to help them along. However, any elitist in the group will blast through to activate the boss door and wait. They never help.
> Elitist types only care about getting that random queue AD as quickly as possible. They don’t care to slow down and truly help new people. This is a problem in our collective community because it sours the impression new players get.
> We need to fix this for Neverwinter’s continued future, and this nonsense scaling just adds to the frustration. Scaling does not keep the true elitist in check; it never will. But it sure makes it more of a struggle for everyone else.
> Yes, during the Roadmap today, they discussed more tweaks to the scaling to make it more customized to individual stats to create a truly proportional scale. Okay, maybe, but I won’t believe it until I play it, but many of us feel there should be no scaling at all. If you’re level 80 with “maxed” stats who spends your time strolling around Elemental Evil zones complaining “This is too easy.”, you don’t need scaling; you need professional help for having unrealistic expectations.
> Quit complaining about old content being too easy and use your knowledge and skills to help new players also enjoy it. Repeating: The problem is our community’s collective elitist mentality, and scaling won’t ever fix it, so stop the scaling nonsense.
Disagree. My time is not worth any less than a new player's. Cryptic were warned what would happen if they forced the rAD queue upon the player base. They didn't care, and they still don't. So, here we are with both veterans and newbies hating each other.
I was content to farm rAD when you could still do it solo.
> (Quote)
> This attitude right here is precisely why newbies running low level dungeons for the first time are robbed of their enjoyment by veterans looking to clear the dungeon asap for their daily rAD farm. The devs HAVE taken measures to help remedy this, but it isn't enough because those dungeons are STILL too easy for veterans and they can solo them despite being scaled. As mentioned by someone before, the fault does indeed fall to the veteran players. I for one am fully willing to not rush a dungeon if it means a better experience for the newbies. Besides, not rushing it means the newbies learn more through first-hand experience anyway.
And your attitude is precisely why newbies have a harder time than ever to learn and be carried because your self-sanctimonious good intentions led to a system that disrespects veterans (while clamoring for respect for newbies; the hypocrisy is astounding). Because of your approach, far fewer newbies now find veterans (because many left) willing to carry them, and this is further exacerbated by one of the most incompetent implementations of scaling I've witnessed in over three decades of gaming. Before it was possible for one or two vets to carry a team of newbies. Those days are over, so now the remaining vets arrange private runs in closed social circles which most newbies don't even know exist.
If you want to spend your time being slow and inefficient, that's your choice. You don't get to make that choice for anyone else. Autumn Witch (and others) already provided a straight forward and elegant solution: tiered difficulty levels of the same content. Cryptic won't do it because: 1. They're incompetent, and 2. longer queues, but their 'solution' means a worse and less successful experience for everyone.
2. They actually said they will be doing "tiered" versions of trials like ToMM, so they aren't entirely ignoring alternate difficulties.
As for how scaling is implemented, yes it needs work and no one is saying it doesn't. All I have done is state reasons WHY scaling exists period.
There it is.
And isn't this standard practice? Games have been taking that approach for decades. Because it just makes sense, and more importantly, it works.
But scaling players to fit the content - who does that? It may be less reinventing the wheel than it is breaking the wheel.