It should not be said but what I have seen in my time playing this game is that the team does what the team are asked or wants to do. They take in to account what we say about the things they have done but the end result lies with the team to either remove or leave as is. We can debate and we can sit on these forums each day and we can repost the same post different ways but this still does not change the fact the team added those dungeons and trails to random que and that will never change. If you look back mod after mod you would realize what they do. When a new mod releases that dungeon from that old mod gets moved to the random and that new dungeon or trail gets moved to the random on its own. Unless it is completely bugged out and has major issues they will not remove it nor disable it from the randoms. Now I stand with many to say that yes those should not be there in random ques but still yet I know already that what I just typed does not change anything. Sure the team may come and read these post but again end result lies with them and yes it wont change. This said I feel we should focus more on other issues in this game then dungeons but thats just my two cents worth of input.
Question : I'm in a guild. I never organize anything and I also complain no one is organizing anything (time to time i meet players like that). Can you see the irony ? Players who don't have the guild or the alliance to back them up for RQ : aren't they able to help their guild grow and be healthier rather than losing time in RQ because of "newplayers" (or even maybe try to recruit those "newplayers" ?)
Well one of my alts is in a level 20 guild and I am the ONLY member in the guild that logs in. I have left the roster as it is without removing anyone in case they return. They aren't playing an alt because the information will show that they are logging in an alt but over 100 players simply have quit playing who are in the guild. I know this is a rare case but for a situation like this, where the alliance has removed the guild where would a player like this find someone to run content with? Also those players who play with their friends and made a guild but are nearing end game. There are several other situations where they don't have the guild or alliance backing yet they are more than capable of supporting a guild.
What's really bothering me is I strongly think everyone has every keys and keychain they need. But a lot of us only want to carry that one key and want the world to adapt all the doors so they can be opened with that key.
My points are, that if I am a veteran who is "forced" to explain mechanics to new players then why not design the game to teach those players, because I am only one person, I can't reach all the new players and it is also too daunting to reach all new players to give them tips on dungeons. So why not have the game teach them and force these players down that training route? Is that so unreasonable? Is that so UNfair that it's offensive to suggest? NO. It's HOW it should of been designed to start with.
Again, the critical problem is basically socialization. Segregating and categorizing players, puting them in seperate boxes so everyone is in his "domain" is something i don't see as a solution.
Probably because your starting premise is wrong which leads you to the inability to find a proper solution. I am not saying everything needs to be fair for every player. There are just bits of information that new players don't have that could improve their characters drastically but fail to do because they don't even know what questions they should be asking in terms of making their characters better. Is that socialism that I would like a way to get information to these players better so they have at least a road map of ways to progress?
Well one of my alts is in a level 20 guild and I am the ONLY member in the guild that logs in. I have left the roster as it is without removing anyone in case they return.
Oki. Contextualisation time.
All my meaningfull toons (8, one of each class) are in one single level 20 guild (we hit this level some 2 days ago, it was level 4 when i joined it 3 years ago, and i will add that we never had any trouble recruting to maintain our "usual" active players number, even when we were below level 10). I am and will always be faithful to this guild (until I decide to really quit the game). One MMORPG, one real guild, this is my way since the 90s so, when I'm not creating one, I always choose extremely carefully the one I join (ex : if i answer a guild /z recruitment message, and get an invite without the need to talk or answer some questions, it's a big nope for me, and also a no if along the talk I see that we don't have the same "philosophy" about some crucial criterias).
One other alt is leader of a level 8 guild of ghosts : the 5 former leaders [friends I still speak with outside of NWO], when they decided to quit the game at the end of mod14, asked me to put a reroll in so I can "keep the guild for them in case they would return" and so i could also organized the "transfer" of the remaining active players to other guilds as the former leaders didn't really have the heart to dismantle their thing themselves. I just stay in to use the storage capacity of the guildbank for my personnal use until they they come back.
My 29 others toons with the ~40 alts of my IRL brother are in a level 4 guild of mules (memberlist is only @mybrother@me). Mostly there because I don't want to pollute my real guild memberlist with the alts-invoke-craft-army.
situation like this, where the alliance has removed the guild where would a player like this find someone to run content with?
That's a question the player in this situation should ask himself. I won't answer it directly as i'm pretty sure you are able to find plenty of ideas to solve this problem from the point of view of this players.
But, as I like little (or not ^^) stories and not so accurate comparison : My car-GPS device is broken. How can I find my destination ? If I'm waiting patiently for a new car-GPS device to be automatically parachuted where I am, while complaining that governement is really inefficient when it comes to parachuting car-GPS devices, i will go nowhere during a while.
I don't believe in god(s), I will always try to do something rather than relying on praying or staying passive.
Also those players who play with their friends and made a guild but are nearing end game. There are several other situations where they don't have the guild or alliance backing yet they are more than capable of supporting a guild.
It's a choice : closed guild with players (maybe knowing each others IRL) who are not able to form premade-parties on a regular basis for RQ, but who also don't open their doors to anyone else (because reasons) nor bothering making new friends. Again, kind of a socialization problem.
My points are, that if I am a veteran who is "forced" to explain mechanics to new players then why not design the game to teach those players, because I am only one person, I can't reach all the new players and it is also too daunting to reach all new players to give them tips on dungeons.
Again, you are not currently forced to explain. I think you are taking a microscopic point of vue (or some kind of savior complex :P), thinking you should teach every single newplayer "how to" do things. I'm thinking macroscopic, a MMO where you have a pool of veterans who are all probably able to explain to a pool of newbies.
So why not have the game teach them and force these players down that training route? Is that so unreasonable? Is that so UNfair that it's offensive to suggest? NO. It's HOW it should of been designed to start with.
Is any "mandatory" education system is able to force teach and train everyone to be able to play basket during physical education, or do you still see some kids unable to aim properly ? Should they be prevented to play the game at the end of the first, 2nd, 10th lesson because they still trip, double dribble, walk, airball a lot and in general are way below the level of the other kids ?
Though I kind of agree with you, the learning curve in neverwinter is going from medium to bad to worse as the game ages (even after dumbing down some things in mod16). Probably because of a combination of the modern impatient childish behavior (which is why a f-2-p game rely on to stay afloat business wise) and the easy availability of catch-up stuff allowing them to dive in endgame too quickly. They are given a scientific calculator (UM beginning stuff/weapons in ME) after learning how to add and substract (leveling phase between 1 to 80), but before they know how to multiply and divide (and I don't even speak about the LOG, LN, !, etc keys).
Probably because your starting premise is wrong which leads you to the inability to find a proper solution. I am not saying everything needs to be fair for every player. There are just bits of information that new players don't have that could improve their characters drastically but fail to do because they don't even know what questions they should be asking in terms of making their characters better. Is that socialism that I would like a way to get information to these players better so they have at least a road map of ways to progress?
(IRL politically, i am the rich hypocrit socialist :P) I would rather see veterans forced to share and train the newplayers than the newplayers forced to work, study and progress alone until they get to the "veterans-class", helped by a system that doesn't involved any veteran.
My starting premise, as an old 90s MMORPG player (and pen&paper RPG player), is players should help each others and shouldn't wait the game to help them. Solution is within the community. But community is also the problem, as obviously divergence in points of view, skills, cultures, disponibilities, moods, characters, etc, etc, are legions ^^. And at the end, that's also what is great in a MMORPG : the humans .
(edit : i enjoy our discussion, espescially because your arguments are well supported, and I can very well understand and place myself in your point of vue. I hope it's also your case. I have nothing aigainst you even though i provoked and continued this "quote war". I would likely have good time in game with you if someday we meet in ^^)
Dont mind me Im just posting so I can post my own feedback. Seeing how Ive been on this site for nearly a month and have been playing the game non-stop every day, it says I can only reply because my account is new.... Also, it works well in the que rotation. I feel, as a new player, by joining a random to get my dailies I learn from experience in the trial. It might be frustrating for you to have to deal with us newbies but you are our teacher. Sure I could watch youtube videos on how to run it but I want hands on training. Im no longer new to the trials, dungeons, and skirmishes. Well, at least not until I get over this item level 18,000 hump I am in because of the stupid 100k daily rAD refinement cap and the auction house is busted.
I will say that I first off have no issues with new players being in any party that I am in. I do however hate it when a new player decides he or she does not wish to talk. When you get to a boss fight and no one speaks up to say I am new what do I do then everyone in the party assumes that each person is not new and know what to do and what not to do. Perhaps language is an issue or perhaps not but if you are new its best to state this at the start so each person knows this and either you get toxic hateful people that wishes to kick or you get a group willing to help and teach you. Not saying every new player does not speak up just saying anyone that is new should state so at the start.
why is this thread not closed yet? i feel like i wasted my time reading all those 5 pages of comments.
the OP feels like moving CR and CODG back into random queues is a bad idea and stated his reasons why.
Putting them in random queue makes them more “out there”, that is, players, new or not, are forced to be put in the said dungeon or trial if they want to run RTQ or REQ.
if these were not added back, then they'd remain to be places that would only be used by very few people who specifically want to run it, which would be a waste of assets on neverwinter’s part.
Is the stress of being put here with the chance of not finishing worth it? it depends on the person.
If you run random queues and expect it to always go well when it can range from 5 people who agree to run it together to 5 people who know nothing about one another and the dungeon, then that mistake of that assumption is on you.
I get that random dungeons is the most straightforward way of getting RAD, but it is not the only way.
CR and CODG has been available for a long time now. if you haven't played it to death to familiarize yourself with the mechanics yet, then i think it is safe to say that you probably shouldn't run a random queue.
before random queue was introduced, this was what i think the norm was and so people get familiar with the mechanics as they play and play.
CR and CODG has been available for a long time now. if you haven't played it to death to familiarize yourself with the mechanics yet, then i think it is safe to say that you probably shouldn't run a random queue.
You shouldn't run a random queue (which includes things like CN and eDemo) because you haven't played CR and CoDG to death?
CR and CODG has been available for a long time now. if you haven't played it to death to familiarize yourself with the mechanics yet, then i think it is safe to say that you probably shouldn't run a random queue.
You shouldn't run a random queue (which includes things like CN and eDemo) because you haven't played CR and CoDG to death?
I guess new players should have run them 5 - 10 times before they reached lvl 70. Ya think?
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
edited February 2020
It's really not difficult to solve this problem. We used to have an expert queue for higher difficulty dungeons. They should just reinstitute that queue. Problem solved. Also, they should stop designing boss encounters with pointless, boring, frustrating everyone-gather-around-the-tank-and-healer-and-scratch-your-butts and do-this-specialized-thing-or-instadeath mechanics. But we know that isn't going to happen. This is a Zack Snyder game that used to be a Christopher Nolan game.
It's really not difficult to solve this problem. We used to have an expert queue for higher difficulty dungeons. They should just reinstitute that queue. Problem solved. Also, they should stop designing boss encounters with pointless, boring, frustrating everyone-gather-around-the-tank-and-healer-and-scratch-your-butts and do-this-specialized-thing-or-instadeath mechanics. But we know that isn't going to happen. This is a Zack Snyder game that used to be a Christopher Nolan game.
I was only thinking this exact thing yesterday.
If the final boss mob fights rely so heavily on "knowing when to Jump, knowing when to hide behind a wall, knowing when to charge the enemy, knowing when to blah blah blah or you get insta killed" is this a good thing or a bad thing?
It seems to me that most endgame content, if you know the mechanics, isn't that hard to complete [with a good team etc etc].
Which means the trial is getting people to understand the mechanics rather than fighting stuff.
I haven't put this very eloquently, but I think you get my point hopefully.
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tassedethe13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 806Arc User
Everytime i tag random dungeon queue, I get a given up LOMM instance, as i tag with friends we can still complete it with one or two pugs still there, but I feel sad for them, wiping in lomm for 40 min on 1st boss
Comments
We can debate and we can sit on these forums each day and we can repost the same post different ways but this still does not change the fact the team added those dungeons and trails to random que and that will never change.
If you look back mod after mod you would realize what they do.
When a new mod releases that dungeon from that old mod gets moved to the random and that new dungeon or trail gets moved to the random on its own.
Unless it is completely bugged out and has major issues they will not remove it nor disable it from the randoms.
Now I stand with many to say that yes those should not be there in random ques but still yet I know already that what I just typed does not change anything.
Sure the team may come and read these post but again end result lies with them and yes it wont change.
This said I feel we should focus more on other issues in this game then dungeons but thats just my two cents worth of input.
All my meaningfull toons (8, one of each class) are in one single level 20 guild (we hit this level some 2 days ago, it was level 4 when i joined it 3 years ago, and i will add that we never had any trouble recruting to maintain our "usual" active players number, even when we were below level 10).
I am and will always be faithful to this guild (until I decide to really quit the game).
One MMORPG, one real guild, this is my way since the 90s so, when I'm not creating one, I always choose extremely carefully the one I join (ex : if i answer a guild /z recruitment message, and get an invite without the need to talk or answer some questions, it's a big nope for me, and also a no if along the talk I see that we don't have the same "philosophy" about some crucial criterias).
One other alt is leader of a level 8 guild of ghosts : the 5 former leaders [friends I still speak with outside of NWO], when they decided to quit the game at the end of mod14, asked me to put a reroll in so I can "keep the guild for them in case they would return" and so i could also organized the "transfer" of the remaining active players to other guilds as the former leaders didn't really have the heart to dismantle their thing themselves. I just stay in to use the storage capacity of the guildbank for my personnal use until they they come back.
My 29 others toons with the ~40 alts of my IRL brother are in a level 4 guild of mules (memberlist is only @mybrother @me). Mostly there because I don't want to pollute my real guild memberlist with the alts-invoke-craft-army. That's a question the player in this situation should ask himself. I won't answer it directly as i'm pretty sure you are able to find plenty of ideas to solve this problem from the point of view of this players.
But, as I like little (or not ^^) stories and not so accurate comparison :
My car-GPS device is broken. How can I find my destination ? If I'm waiting patiently for a new car-GPS device to be automatically parachuted where I am, while complaining that governement is really inefficient when it comes to parachuting car-GPS devices, i will go nowhere during a while.
I don't believe in god(s), I will always try to do something rather than relying on praying or staying passive. It's a choice : closed guild with players (maybe knowing each others IRL) who are not able to form premade-parties on a regular basis for RQ, but who also don't open their doors to anyone else (because reasons) nor bothering making new friends. Again, kind of a socialization problem. Again, you are not currently forced to explain.
I think you are taking a microscopic point of vue (or some kind of savior complex :P), thinking you should teach every single newplayer "how to" do things.
I'm thinking macroscopic, a MMO where you have a pool of veterans who are all probably able to explain to a pool of newbies. Is any "mandatory" education system is able to force teach and train everyone to be able to play basket during physical education, or do you still see some kids unable to aim properly ? Should they be prevented to play the game at the end of the first, 2nd, 10th lesson because they still trip, double dribble, walk, airball a lot and in general are way below the level of the other kids ?
Though I kind of agree with you, the learning curve in neverwinter is going from medium to bad to worse as the game ages (even after dumbing down some things in mod16). Probably because of a combination of the modern impatient childish behavior (which is why a f-2-p game rely on to stay afloat business wise) and the easy availability of catch-up stuff allowing them to dive in endgame too quickly.
They are given a scientific calculator (UM beginning stuff/weapons in ME) after learning how to add and substract (leveling phase between 1 to 80), but before they know how to multiply and divide (and I don't even speak about the LOG, LN, !, etc keys).
(IRL politically, i am the rich hypocrit socialist :P)
I would rather see veterans forced to share and train the newplayers than the newplayers forced to work, study and progress alone until they get to the "veterans-class", helped by a system that doesn't involved any veteran.
My starting premise, as an old 90s MMORPG player (and pen&paper RPG player), is players should help each others and shouldn't wait the game to help them. Solution is within the community. But community is also the problem, as obviously divergence in points of view, skills, cultures, disponibilities, moods, characters, etc, etc, are legions ^^. And at the end, that's also what is great in a MMORPG : the humans
(edit : i enjoy our discussion, espescially because your arguments are well supported, and I can very well understand and place myself in your point of vue. I hope it's also your case. I have nothing aigainst you even though i provoked and continued this "quote war". I would likely have good time in game with you if someday we meet in ^^)
When you get to a boss fight and no one speaks up to say I am new what do I do then everyone in the party assumes that each person is not new and know what to do and what not to do.
Perhaps language is an issue or perhaps not but if you are new its best to state this at the start so each person knows this and either you get toxic hateful people that wishes to kick or you get a group willing to help and teach you.
Not saying every new player does not speak up just saying anyone that is new should state so at the start.
the OP feels like moving CR and CODG back into random queues is a bad idea and stated his reasons why.
Putting them in random queue makes them more “out there”, that is, players, new or not, are forced to be put in the said dungeon or trial if they want to run RTQ or REQ.
if these were not added back, then they'd remain to be places that would only be used by very few people who specifically want to run it, which would be a waste of assets on neverwinter’s part.
Is the stress of being put here with the chance of not finishing worth it? it depends on the person.
If you run random queues and expect it to always go well when it can range from 5 people who agree to run it together to 5 people who know nothing about one another and the dungeon, then that mistake of that assumption is on you.
I get that random dungeons is the most straightforward way of getting RAD, but it is not the only way.
CR and CODG has been available for a long time now. if you haven't played it to death to familiarize yourself with the mechanics yet, then i think it is safe to say that you probably shouldn't run a random queue.
before random queue was introduced, this was what i think the norm was and so people get familiar with the mechanics as they play and play.
They should just reinstitute that queue.
Problem solved.
Also, they should stop designing boss encounters with pointless, boring, frustrating everyone-gather-around-the-tank-and-healer-and-scratch-your-butts and do-this-specialized-thing-or-instadeath mechanics. But we know that isn't going to happen. This is a Zack Snyder game that used to be a Christopher Nolan game.
If the final boss mob fights rely so heavily on "knowing when to Jump, knowing when to hide behind a wall, knowing when to charge the enemy, knowing when to blah blah blah or you get insta killed" is this a good thing or a bad thing?
It seems to me that most endgame content, if you know the mechanics, isn't that hard to complete [with a good team etc etc].
Which means the trial is getting people to understand the mechanics rather than fighting stuff.
I haven't put this very eloquently, but I think you get my point hopefully.