"Your heals will be 5% stronger, but all DPS players will do 25% less damage"
This is a perfect analogy that will go right over everyone's head. if i wore this as a healer i would then have to argue with dps players "don't worry about it, you can overcome this by increasing your outgoing damage to compensate"
Not a perfect analogy because: - A DPSer wearing the boots can use tacticals, boons and companions to get back the decreased incoming healing, a healer won't have anything to increase the decreased damage for teammates, except for maybe temporary buffs (i.e. no 100% uptime); - The boots are actually useful because strong teams can use it without any problems and the added damage will enable the team to run content faster. However, these proposed "+5% heal, -25% dmg for all DPS" would be absolutely useless for all teams: weak teams would not be able to pass DPS checks with the healer wearing them, strong teams would not need the +5% healing at all.
All this bickering, I wonder where were all those people who so against the boots when everyone ran with high rank darks in utility slots because 50 more stats is sooo important..
Yes? I still see the darks BiS recommendations, so where is the noise? About the poor healers and the deaths?
Or where you all kicking healers that do not have 50% outgoing healing? I'm just wondering. Or tiamat set and lionheart. Because suddenly you need such high healing and healers do not over-heal twice the regular pleb DPS HP.
It's like since the boots appeared all the healers became idiots, and all the players even more idiots. If a player is not capable of understanding the tradeoffs or communicate with the healer, it's on them, I didn't encounter such, but I hear this is what the kick button is for. Or better yet, taking a single polite PM and ask to swap.
What happened? Easier to write HAMSTER on the forums than actually communicate in game? Yes I know, look at my post count, but still, it doesn't absolve from minimal attempt.
Not having incoming healing isn’t as much of an issue as having negative incoming healing. Because having enough outgoing healing to comfortably heal the former is relatively affordable. But the latter needs a bucket load of ad.
I wanted to comment, but everyone pretty much said already: Let them die.
Also, it's not inherently a bad design, it's an item where the DPS are expected to spend and sacrifice for.
The cheapest solution is to get an ioun stone of allure to legendary: def slot, 2k power + 10% incoming heal + the heal guild boon. Or you can just stack 5 Rank 10 tacticals. Or any way you can flexibly decide how you would like to get incoming heal.
And why it's expensive? Well, BiS items should not just freely drop from random big mobs on the new map, making the whole gear progression worthless.
And also, i'm having a hard time understanding those who want a long grindy farm, instead of getting it and then spending. Because you can use it with it's drawbacks (or, give up power elsewhere to negate it) and then later polish it into a better state instead of unable to use it regardless of anything until you get it. And if you want farm... well, you can farm the AD for the tacticals.
I understand everyone's frustration with seeing people in random queue in those boots crippling the whole team, but that's their responsibility and fault.
0
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
All this bickering, I wonder where were all those people who so against the boots when everyone ran with high rank darks in utility slots because 50 more stats is sooo important..
Yes? I still see the darks BiS recommendations, so where is the noise? About the poor healers and the deaths?
Or where you all kicking healers that do not have 50% outgoing healing? I'm just wondering. Or tiamat set and lionheart. Because suddenly you need such high healing and healers do not over-heal twice the regular pleb DPS HP.
It's like since the boots appeared all the healers became idiots, and all the players even more idiots. If a player is not capable of understanding the tradeoffs or communicate with the healer, it's on them, I didn't encounter such, but I hear this is what the kick button is for. Or better yet, taking a single polite PM and ask to swap.
What happened? Easier to write HAMSTER on the forums than actually communicate in game? Yes I know, look at my post count, but still, it doesn't absolve from minimal attempt.
Not having incoming healing isn’t as much of an issue as having negative incoming healing. Because having enough outgoing healing to comfortably heal the former is relatively affordable. But the latter needs a bucket load of ad.
I'm not sure how so.
They are shoved almost into the same place and determine how much HP you get from the healer. If I have 330k HP and the healer casts whatever they cast for the party and overheal to 500k then a reduction of 25% will cost absolutely nothing.
On the other hand if there is a tank with 800k HP and 0 incoming healing and a severe problem using their shield, a healer will have choice words regardless of the AD they can invest.
This is why I find this whole argument so moot.. the capability of wearing those boots or not is personal. And in a context of a group. A player should be smart enough to make this not so difficult decisions, a very easy indicator will be their death rate and HP bar. If a player is not capable of that, I must say I haven't met anyone like that yet, but in my party I'll make it for them, or leave them to their infinite wisdom and leave.
Player stupidity will always manifest itself in one way or another. This is just one more possible outlet, if humanity would have been paralyzed by stupidity we still wouldn't be using fire for cooking.
Tactical 10 does not compensate 25% , I just did the calculation above in AD too. I get that the devs have no clue, but you do and if you do not , just read the calculation above. . Rewards must be given according to work. It is such an easy and natural concept that little children have it , monkey in the tests, hamsters in test have it. I can quote the studies, but you have Google. Grown adults on this forum try so hard to pretend that they do not understand what is fair. The boots are bad design, bad as reward, bad as play experience, bad as DM reputation. If someone made this choice as DM , it would have DM further for his imaginary friends. .
what about the other 3 boot options that are equally easy to get? Why shoudlnt a new player use them? Why dont u allow them to use one of those boots?
Oh look, more *but what about muh undergeared players*.
Imagine what would happen if we got back no cooldown vote kicking to weed out the apes that do nothing but waste everyone else's time. Players need to be punished more for failing at playing / itemising their characters, not less.
These leggings are probably the first properly designed item that has ever existed in this game, my love for old armour set bonuses excluded. Removing them won't help the people that whine about them and the people that don't whine about them wouldn't notice either way.
They are shoved almost into the same place and determine how much HP you get from the healer. If I have 330k HP and the healer casts whatever they cast for the party and overheal to 500k then a reduction of 25% will cost absolutely nothing.
On the other hand if there is a tank with 800k HP and 0 incoming healing and a severe problem using their shield, a healer will have choice words regardless of the AD they can invest.
This is why I find this whole argument so moot.. the capability of wearing those boots or not is personal. And in a context of a group. A player should be smart enough to make this not so difficult decisions, a very easy indicator will be their death rate and HP bar. If a player is not capable of that, I must say I haven't met anyone like that yet, but in my party I'll make it for them, or leave them to their infinite wisdom and leave.
Player stupidity will always manifest itself in one way or another. This is just one more possible outlet, if humanity would have been paralyzed by stupidity we still wouldn't be using fire for cooking.
Because companions become more expensive to upgrade. 30% outgoing healing is comfortable for most random queues, with dps incoming healing at 0%. 40% needs you getting your companions to epics, 50% we’re looking at legendary.
Healers aren’t all over healing you for 500k. That’s just limited encounters when they crit, with an powerful healer.
You haven’t met anybody dim enough to wear the boots and gain high death counts? Congratulations. But the current player base isn’t capable of following basic instructions in CoDG.
My paladin is 160k power, 200k crit strike, 50% outgoing healing. I've run LoMM with everyone, including the tank wearing these boots. We failed the first boss twice due to not being able to fully heal cocoons since only the tank had tacticals on. After that, we were fine. In scaled content, anyone who wears the boots, I can't heal them at all, -25% may as well be not healing them at all. In trials, I just let them die because its too much divinity to keep them alive. I quickly just scan everyone if someone is wearing it they have to fend for themselves. Paladins are not overhealing in any capacity, they have 350 magnitude on their standard healing while DCs have 750 with an extra slot available for outgoing healing companions. As for Warlocks, why should they sacrifice their hp for someone wearing these boots? These boots are situational, but everyone is using them. If you pug, more likely than not the dps all have it, or haven't gone into vallenhas yet.
My paladin is 160k power, 200k crit strike, 50% outgoing healing. I've run LoMM with everyone, including the tank wearing these boots. We failed the first boss twice due to not being able to fully heal cocoons since only the tank had tacticals on. After that, we were fine. In scaled content, anyone who wears the boots, I can't heal them at all, -25% may as well be not healing them at all. In trials, I just let them die because its too much divinity to keep them alive. I quickly just scan everyone if someone is wearing it they have to fend for themselves. Paladins are not overhealing in any capacity, they have 350 magnitude on their standard healing while DCs have 750 with an extra slot available for outgoing healing companions. As for Warlocks, why should they sacrifice their hp for someone wearing these boots? These boots are situational, but everyone is using them. If you pug, more likely than not the dps all have it, or haven't gone into vallenhas yet.
Agreed, Paladin Healer are effected the most . Reducing 25% incoming heals which also means reduces 25% shield gained from heals, these means that the Paladin healing effectiveness are reduced by 50%
Agreed, Paladin Healer are effected the most . Reducing 25% incoming heals which also means reduces 25% shield gained from heals, these means that the Paladin healing effectiveness are reduced by 50%
Nope. Reducing 25% of heals and 25% of shields means a 25% reduction in the total "saved HP amount", i.e. effectiveness (because 0.75*heal + 0.75*shield = 0.75*[heal+shield]). Warlock is the most affected class IMO, because they have extremely low magnitudes and no shield or other tricks to actually compensate.
Warlock is the most affected class IMO, because they have extremely low magnitudes and no shield or other tricks to actually compensate.
It's been a struggle to get this point across in previous discussions on these boots... the hypothetical healer for theorycrafters always seems to be a DC. But unlike them, or Paladins, Soulweavers clearly aren't designed to overheal. I've given up trying to present a Soulweaver perspective though: I'm ready for the dystopian "watch 'em die" approach. Just let me eat their souls when they're down instead of reviving them, please.
I wasn't thinking about randoms when I got the boots and RP'd my old boots. It was a mistake for sure! Personally I love the new boots, but I don't put that burden on the healer in my party. I have stones, altars, etc, to look after myself. The only time I've really seen it be an issue we in a LoMM where I couldn't be healed during cocoon. But what did I expect with -25% incoming healing and over 300k HP. In that particular LoMM I knew what the problem was, accepted it was my fault, and moved on. The healer in the group would have healed me just fine without those boots because she was SOOOOO close.
My paladin just did a LoMM with a random group where some dps weared those boots and having negative incoming healing. I did not felt much difference other than that my shields were a bit lower then normal.
That said, even though the average fails in REDQ on all groups in the game may increase due to people wearing them without handling properly the consequence, i agree that it freshes up gear choices and is not "bad design". But to each their own.
My paladin just did a LoMM with a random group where some dps weared those boots and having negative incoming healing. I did not felt much difference other than that my shields were a bit lower then normal.
That said, even though the average fails in REDQ on all groups in the game may increase due to people wearing them without handling properly the consequence, i agree that it freshes up gear choices and is not "bad design". But to each their own.
So from your perspective its fine, but how about we take a slightly less geared Paladin and put him in your place? Do you think all paladins will be able to over come the boots and win?
2
darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,261Arc User
My paladin just did a LoMM with a random group where some dps weared those boots and having negative incoming healing. I did not felt much difference other than that my shields were a bit lower then normal.
That said, even though the average fails in REDQ on all groups in the game may increase due to people wearing them without handling properly the consequence, i agree that it freshes up gear choices and is not "bad design". But to each their own.
So from your perspective its fine, but how about we take a slightly less geared Paladin and put him in your place? Do you think all paladins will be able to over come the boots and win?
A bad DPS is a bad DPS, with boots or with no boots. If you are a good dps, you will overcome boots penalty or you will avoid dmg better. If you are a bad dps, boots are the last of your problems
My paladin just did a LoMM with a random group where some dps weared those boots and having negative incoming healing. I did not felt much difference other than that my shields were a bit lower then normal.
That said, even though the average fails in REDQ on all groups in the game may increase due to people wearing them without handling properly the consequence, i agree that it freshes up gear choices and is not "bad design". But to each their own.
So from your perspective its fine, but how about we take a slightly less geared Paladin and put him in your place? Do you think all paladins will be able to over come the boots and win?
No, lower paladins will definitely have trouble. But i do not understand the point why lower paladins should get through it when the team provides a worse situation for them to overcome than they would before. As it is:
Before this mod a low paladin (bad power and bad outgoing healing) was challenged to heal at cocoons. Especially on high hp tanks with barely any incoming healing. -- This was doable and the challenge was alrigth (at least to me).
Before this mod a good or close to BiS equipped paladin had no problem.
Now, being a low paladin and the dps or tank take those boots and them having negative incoming healing, it may provide an unbearable challenge. -- But is this really a problem of the paladin? It is clear that the team did not helped the low geared healer to overcome the negative incoming healing, so it is not unjustified that they will wipe. They made a bad decision as a team and wiped. That is all. They can adapt and retry.
Now, being a middle geared paladin and the dps or tank take those boots and them having negative incoming healing, they may face the problems they once had as a low level paladin before the mod. Their wipe conter may rise, but since they are more experienced now, they should be able to handle it. -- Seems fair. And the team did not even adapted to make the healers role easier.
Now being a close to BiS geared paladin and having people with negative incoming healing barely makes a difference. -- Seems fair too. Here people can go full negative -25% incoming healing and be fine.
I knew when I started this thread that there would be a lot of varying views. I was pretty sure that DPS would be largely in favour of the boots.
I think some DPS players have an idea that heals are generally much stronger than they actually are:
For example: A devout cleric with stats of: 150k power, 160k crit, 90% crit severity, 50% outgoing healing and a legendary Alabaster Weapon, will heal as follows with their spammable heal: Bastion of Health:
Normal hit: 99k to 121k Crit hit: 189k to 231k
(Note this is before any scaling in dungeons).
Now if you are healing someone with -25% incoming healing:
Normal hit: 80k to 97k Crit hit: 151k to 185k
So the healer has lost a significant amount of output. What can the healer do to make up the deficit? Well they can heal multiple times - at a cost of divinity + time, or try to increase their output. How much more power would you need to offset the 25% reduced incoming healing?
It's quite a lot. You'd need an additional 65,000 power to offset the -25% incoming healing...
Since starting the thread, I've been keeping a track of the number of players that have turned up in random dungeon runs. I'm less bothered about them turning up in random trials.
I've seen 7 pairs of these boots in the last 4 days. Only one of the players I've encountered wearing the boots had any offset to the 25% reduced incoming healing, and that player had -17% incoming healing. How do I know? I've inspected them all.
Obviously, this isn't a large sample, just my experience to date. I'll keep on tracking.
Perhaps instead of "You deal 5% more damage but you receive -25% incoming healing" it would have been better to be "You deal 5% more damage, but you receive XX% more incoming damage". 25% extra incoming damage might be a bit much, but it shouldn't be 5% and 5%.
That way, DPS and others wearing the boots would have had a more clear choice: do more damage, but take the risk of taking a lot more incoming damage / dying. The present design rewards the DPS and penalises the healer.
The problem isn't the design of the boots. Risk/reward is a part of game design and it's nice to see it integrated even if I don't 100% like this item in particular.
The real problem is player mentality and the devs shouldn't take that into account when designing gear.
The players should be adjusting their practices based on the gear they want to run.
There will be players that refuse to switch off the boots when they can't stay alive and that will heighten the toxic nature of pug runs. But that's player mentality.
I knew when I started this thread that there would be a lot of varying views. I was pretty sure that DPS would be largely in favour of the boots.
I think some DPS players have an idea that heals are generally much stronger than they actually are:
For example: A devout cleric with stats of: 150k power, 160k crit, 90% crit severity, 50% outgoing healing and a legendary Alabaster Weapon, will heal as follows with their spammable heal: Bastion of Health:
Normal hit: 99k to 121k Crit hit: 189k to 231k
(Note this is before any scaling in dungeons).
Now if you are healing someone with -25% incoming healing:
Normal hit: 80k to 97k Crit hit: 151k to 185k
So the healer has lost a significant amount of output. What can the healer do to make up the deficit? Well they can heal multiple times - at a cost of divinity + time, or try to increase their output. How much more power would you need to offset the 25% reduced incoming healing?
It's quite a lot. You'd need an additional 65,000 power to offset the -25% incoming healing...
Since starting the thread, I've been keeping a track of the number of players that have turned up in random dungeon runs. I'm less bothered about them turning up in random trials.
I've seen 7 pairs of these boots in the last 4 days. Only one of the players I've encountered wearing the boots had any offset to the 25% reduced incoming healing, and that player had -17% incoming healing. How do I know? I've inspected them all.
Obviously, this isn't a large sample, just my experience to date. I'll keep on tracking.
Perhaps instead of "You deal 5% more damage but you receive -25% incoming healing" it would have been better to be "You deal 5% more damage, but you receive XX% more incoming damage". 25% extra incoming damage might be a bit much, but it shouldn't be 5% and 5%.
That way, DPS and others wearing the boots would have had a more clear choice: do more damage, but take the risk of taking a lot more incoming damage / dying. The present design rewards the DPS and penalises the healer.
I like your break down here. Gets me thinking. I main a cleric, but have one of each class. Anyways, my cleric is not even at the point you use in your example. I never claimed to be the best cleric out there, but I do have a following of players who consistently ask me to run content with them because they know I am a good cleric.
I don't have that outgoing healing. I don't have that much power. I don't have that much crit strike and I don't have that much crit severity. I am close but not that much. Those boots have a larger impact on less stat clerics than those who have pushed their stats.
Here is how I look at the boots. Sure you get 5% extra damage but if you are dead, that damage bonus goes to 0%. And if you are wearing the boots, ill let you die because they are nothing other than a middle finger to healers.
If you think the boots are a choice, then I also have the choice not to heal you as a protest against those boots. If you think that is petty, then its also petty to wear those boots and expect me to push my stats to make up for YOUR choice.
> If you think the boots are a choice, then I also have the choice not to heal you as a protest against those boots. If you think that is petty, then its also petty to wear those boots and expect me to push my stats to make up for YOUR choice.
Hm what else is in the game that to push your stats?. I'm using boots in every dangeon tomm also with -% can I get to plus sure but is not needed as I get healed full. If I die is on me anyway. If you will get invited to groups to do hard dangeon you at least need to go as much higher as you can heal .dps need to do more damage etc. I didn't see any problem with healing on pug rtq if pugs die no heal will save them. Is not that you are not going to finish bc of boots don't make it this tragic.
As said above, on ppl who know what they do is no problem, with soulweaver i heal them easily. -50 would have required More thought but i think it should have belen viable also
> @edenfay#2737 said: > Players will sacrifice 25% incoming healing to get 5% more damage, yet I still can't convince them to briefly enter the Pillar of Power to get 5% more damage for free
LOL i feel you bro
1
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
If you think the boots are a choice, then I also have the choice not to heal you as a protest against those boots. If you think that is petty, then its also petty to wear those boots and expect me to push my stats to make up for YOUR choice.
It's up to you if you push your stats for the betterment of your team members and higher chance of success in every group you join or not. You ofc free to do the minimal possible, and someone else will pick up the slack (hopefully for you).
If you are petty enough to not heal someone in advance just for a gear choice, then it is others choice to not run with you.
How about... +15% damage. You cannot be healed by others.
Now... as long as I stay alive and do not burden the group, are healers gonna complain that I am hurting their stats?
Well, I'd be happy with that. It would be a clear statement by the player that they do not want healing, so could not then complain about 'not being healed enough'.
I'm not concerned about the boots hurting my stats, only their potential impact on my effectiveness.
It's interesting that so many people complained about scaling hurting their progression and sense of power, yet think wearing a set of boots that nerfs a team member's effectiveness by up to 25% is absolutely fine.
How about... +15% damage. You cannot be healed by others.
Now... as long as I stay alive and do not burden the group, are healers gonna complain that I am hurting their stats?
Well, I'd be happy with that. It would be a clear statement by the player that they do not want healing, so could not then complain about 'not being healed enough'.
I'm not concerned about the boots hurting my stats, only their potential impact on my effectiveness.
It's interesting that so many people complained about scaling hurting their progression and sense of power, yet think wearing a set of boots that nerfs a team member's effectiveness by up to 25% is absolutely fine.
Personnally, i see those boots and stuff reducing incoming healing as kind of "situationnal", and depend with who you are playing and against what.
A living glass canon (kind of what the -%healings is drifting the wearers to) can help in survavibility in the sense he can take down the ennemies quickly so they don't have the time to hurt you too much or too many times (or prevents the fight from being too long, hence reducing the opportunities of making mistakes or loosing focus). But a "healing-vacuum" (and then dead) glass canon have the opposite effect.
These boots 5%dmg/-25%healing make sense on highly evasive toons/builds/players who don't get hit often and also have a high and long survavibility in critical low hp situations. These boots also make sense when the healer is optimized enough to compensate (or if he casually overheals the full hp bar when the wearer doesn't wear the boots).
But these boots make less sense on stand-still combat classes/builds/players or if the group is backed by a "sub-optimal" healer (= not optimized to compensate their build, but maybe optimal for other builds). They also make less sense when there is regular or a spam of unavoidable damages (dragon flight green one poison for exemple).
Situationnal stuffs is interesting for theorycrafting.
How about... +15% damage. You cannot be healed by others.
Now... as long as I stay alive and do not burden the group, are healers gonna complain that I am hurting their stats?
Not the same, but it would have been nice to also have new gear available with an equip bonus that increases incoming and/or outgoing healing or a risk to the DPS like "10% chance on encounter use to die debuff yourself" instead of the straight 25% decrease. The debuff could be decreased movement speed (there's already gear which directly does that) or lowered stamina or even lowered damage (but never much more then the buff provides) but wouldn't be permanent and wouldn't impact other players.
Not being able to be healed at all or for example increase aggro by 1000% would just impact other players & classes. If it's temporary like a debuff or curse it would be ok.
0
lordseth1985Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 319Arc User
Well, I have those boots since day 1 and like them. BUT I'm not stupid like many dpsers around here and I have active the income heal bonus from guild and 5 tactical enchant, just to compensate the reduction. During many redq runs, I saw a lot of "HDPS" players using them and dying just because their income heal are negative. And guess what? it's the healer fault!
It's very sad to know that this elitist thinking still haunts the game. how can you dps anything if you are dead?
IMO the boots are not the problem, but people that only thinks about dealing the most damage possible without considering how to stay alive.
Avestruz.Q.T.Seduz - Rogue, natural born assassin.
There are two bad aspects to the boots: 1) In the group play people blame the healer for not being healed - while making it near impossible to be healed. 2) People use them blindly, there is almost religious belief that +% dmg is the ultimate way to go.
ad 2: It is not always the truth. I have a barbarian, he relies on boodtheft armour enchant to steamroll through the enemies. I put those boots on - and even though I somehow compensated for the incoming healing, he has now harder time to run in Avernus. On the other hand, my rogue with stealth+smoke bomb+barkshield - even without compensating the incoming healing, he stopped struggling in Avernus and became quite proficient.
The thing is to use your head, not to blindly follow the crowd. Unfortunately, healers now have to listen to all those cries, but... you know, whatever. We are all experienced enough to know that that whatever goes wrong in the game, it is healers fault anyway. (https://youtu.be/2DxS7eT_ky4 )
If you think the boots are a choice, then I also have the choice not to heal you as a protest against those boots. If you think that is petty, then its also petty to wear those boots and expect me to push my stats to make up for YOUR choice.
It's up to you if you push your stats for the betterment of your team members and higher chance of success in every group you join or not. You ofc free to do the minimal possible, and someone else will pick up the slack (hopefully for you).
If you are petty enough to not heal someone in advance just for a gear choice, then it is others choice to not run with you.
(This reminds me why I don't PUG)
I find this statement 100% contradictory. You are telling me, that I should as you put it, "push your stats for the betterment of your team" yet shouldn't these players who decide to wear the boots be pushing their incoming healing? Or simply NOT wearing the boots to start with?
So absurd that you insist that I should improve my stats yet there are players who are retarding their stats and expecting other players to make up for it.
No my argument stands..
1
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
If you think the boots are a choice, then I also have the choice not to heal you as a protest against those boots. If you think that is petty, then its also petty to wear those boots and expect me to push my stats to make up for YOUR choice.
It's up to you if you push your stats for the betterment of your team members and higher chance of success in every group you join or not. You ofc free to do the minimal possible, and someone else will pick up the slack (hopefully for you).
If you are petty enough to not heal someone in advance just for a gear choice, then it is others choice to not run with you.
(This reminds me why I don't PUG)
I find this statement 100% contradictory. You are telling me, that I should as you put it, "push your stats for the betterment of your team" yet shouldn't these players who decide to wear the boots be pushing their incoming healing? Or simply NOT wearing the boots to start with?
So absurd that you insist that I should improve my stats yet there are players who are retarding their stats and expecting other players to make up for it.
No my argument stands..
Lets play a sorting game.
Sort the following groups from the most effective to the least:
1. DPS wearing +5% damage bonus, competent enough to adjust their stats to where they don't die, for most it will be low incoming healing or low negative ~(-5 +5), and competent enough healer that understands that it is in their interest that the whole group function well, so they do try to improve both their gear and skill.
2. DPS not wearing boots, due to some limitation, their skill, or healers skill/gear (this usually comes as a mix of previous too).
3. DPS wearing the boots when their skill / gear and the healers can't compensate.
4. A healer that is petty and will not heal someone with the boots regardless if the DPS can compensate by gear or skill.
Well, to save time I've sorted them.
I'm doing groups 1,2. Pugs doing groups 3. You just stated earlier that you are type 4.
Q.E.D
Team effectiveness is about how the team works overall, not a personal squabble of "This is not my job". Anyone ofc, free to play solo in whatever way to choose.
People cry about how healers no longer can debuff, so how about a feat that reduces outgoing healing by 25% and increases everyone damage by 5%?
Comments
- A DPSer wearing the boots can use tacticals, boons and companions to get back the decreased incoming healing, a healer won't have anything to increase the decreased damage for teammates, except for maybe temporary buffs (i.e. no 100% uptime);
- The boots are actually useful because strong teams can use it without any problems and the added damage will enable the team to run content faster. However, these proposed "+5% heal, -25% dmg for all DPS" would be absolutely useless for all teams: weak teams would not be able to pass DPS checks with the healer wearing them, strong teams would not need the +5% healing at all.
Also, it's not inherently a bad design, it's an item where the DPS are expected to spend and sacrifice for.
The cheapest solution is to get an ioun stone of allure to legendary: def slot, 2k power + 10% incoming heal + the heal guild boon. Or you can just stack 5 Rank 10 tacticals. Or any way you can flexibly decide how you would like to get incoming heal.
And why it's expensive? Well, BiS items should not just freely drop from random big mobs on the new map, making the whole gear progression worthless.
And also, i'm having a hard time understanding those who want a long grindy farm, instead of getting it and then spending. Because you can use it with it's drawbacks (or, give up power elsewhere to negate it) and then later polish it into a better state instead of unable to use it regardless of anything until you get it. And if you want farm... well, you can farm the AD for the tacticals.
I understand everyone's frustration with seeing people in random queue in those boots crippling the whole team, but that's their responsibility and fault.
They are shoved almost into the same place and determine how much HP you get from the healer. If I have 330k HP and the healer casts whatever they cast for the party and overheal to 500k then a reduction of 25% will cost absolutely nothing.
On the other hand if there is a tank with 800k HP and 0 incoming healing and a severe problem using their shield, a healer will have choice words regardless of the AD they can invest.
This is why I find this whole argument so moot.. the capability of wearing those boots or not is personal. And in a context of a group. A player should be smart enough to make this not so difficult decisions, a very easy indicator will be their death rate and HP bar. If a player is not capable of that, I must say I haven't met anyone like that yet, but in my party I'll make it for them, or leave them to their infinite wisdom and leave.
Player stupidity will always manifest itself in one way or another. This is just one more possible outlet, if humanity would have been paralyzed by stupidity we still wouldn't be using fire for cooking.
Imagine what would happen if we got back no cooldown vote kicking to weed out the apes that do nothing but waste everyone else's time. Players need to be punished more for failing at playing / itemising their characters, not less.
These leggings are probably the first properly designed item that has ever existed in this game, my love for old armour set bonuses excluded. Removing them won't help the people that whine about them and the people that don't whine about them wouldn't notice either way.
Healers aren’t all over healing you for 500k. That’s just limited encounters when they crit, with an powerful healer.
You haven’t met anybody dim enough to wear the boots and gain high death counts? Congratulations. But the current player base isn’t capable of following basic instructions in CoDG.
Reducing 25% incoming heals which also means reduces 25% shield gained from heals, these means that the Paladin healing effectiveness are reduced by 50%
That said, even though the average fails in REDQ on all groups in the game may increase due to people wearing them without handling properly the consequence, i agree that it freshes up gear choices and is not "bad design". But to each their own.
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
I think some DPS players have an idea that heals are generally much stronger than they actually are:
For example: A devout cleric with stats of: 150k power, 160k crit, 90% crit severity, 50% outgoing healing and a legendary Alabaster Weapon, will heal as follows with their spammable heal: Bastion of Health:
Normal hit: 99k to 121k
Crit hit: 189k to 231k
(Note this is before any scaling in dungeons).
Now if you are healing someone with -25% incoming healing:
Normal hit: 80k to 97k
Crit hit: 151k to 185k
So the healer has lost a significant amount of output. What can the healer do to make up the deficit? Well they can heal multiple times - at a cost of divinity + time, or try to increase their output. How much more power would you need to offset the 25% reduced incoming healing?
It's quite a lot. You'd need an additional 65,000 power to offset the -25% incoming healing...
Since starting the thread, I've been keeping a track of the number of players that have turned up in random dungeon runs. I'm less bothered about them turning up in random trials.
I've seen 7 pairs of these boots in the last 4 days. Only one of the players I've encountered wearing the boots had any offset to the 25% reduced incoming healing, and that player had -17% incoming healing. How do I know? I've inspected them all.
Obviously, this isn't a large sample, just my experience to date. I'll keep on tracking.
Perhaps instead of "You deal 5% more damage but you receive -25% incoming healing" it would have been better to be "You deal 5% more damage, but you receive XX% more incoming damage". 25% extra incoming damage might be a bit much, but it shouldn't be 5% and 5%.
That way, DPS and others wearing the boots would have had a more clear choice: do more damage, but take the risk of taking a lot more incoming damage / dying. The present design rewards the DPS and penalises the healer.
The real problem is player mentality and the devs shouldn't take that into account when designing gear.
The players should be adjusting their practices based on the gear they want to run.
There will be players that refuse to switch off the boots when they can't stay alive and that will heighten the toxic nature of pug runs. But that's player mentality.
I don't have that outgoing healing. I don't have that much power. I don't have that much crit strike and I don't have that much crit severity. I am close but not that much. Those boots have a larger impact on less stat clerics than those who have pushed their stats.
Here is how I look at the boots. Sure you get 5% extra damage but if you are dead, that damage bonus goes to 0%. And if you are wearing the boots, ill let you die because they are nothing other than a middle finger to healers.
If you think the boots are a choice, then I also have the choice not to heal you as a protest against those boots. If you think that is petty, then its also petty to wear those boots and expect me to push my stats to make up for YOUR choice.
Hm what else is in the game that to push your stats?. I'm using boots in every dangeon tomm also with -% can I get to plus sure but is not needed as I get healed full. If I die is on me anyway. If you will get invited to groups to do hard dangeon you at least need to go as much higher as you can heal .dps need to do more damage etc. I didn't see any problem with healing on pug rtq if pugs die no heal will save them. Is not that you are not going to finish bc of boots don't make it this tragic.
The imaginary Friends
Main Kingslayer.jr(barb)
> @edenfay#2737 said:
> Players will sacrifice 25% incoming healing to get 5% more damage, yet I still can't convince them to briefly enter the Pillar of Power to get 5% more damage for free
LOL i feel you bro
If you are petty enough to not heal someone in advance just for a gear choice, then it is others choice to not run with you.
(This reminds me why I don't PUG)
Now... as long as I stay alive and do not burden the group, are healers gonna complain that I am hurting their stats?
I'm not concerned about the boots hurting my stats, only their potential impact on my effectiveness.
It's interesting that so many people complained about scaling hurting their progression and sense of power, yet think wearing a set of boots that nerfs a team member's effectiveness by up to 25% is absolutely fine.
A living glass canon (kind of what the -%healings is drifting the wearers to) can help in survavibility in the sense he can take down the ennemies quickly so they don't have the time to hurt you too much or too many times (or prevents the fight from being too long, hence reducing the opportunities of making mistakes or loosing focus).
But a "healing-vacuum" (and then dead) glass canon have the opposite effect.
These boots 5%dmg/-25%healing make sense on highly evasive toons/builds/players who don't get hit often and also have a high and long survavibility in critical low hp situations.
These boots also make sense when the healer is optimized enough to compensate (or if he casually overheals the full hp bar when the wearer doesn't wear the boots).
But these boots make less sense on stand-still combat classes/builds/players or if the group is backed by a "sub-optimal" healer (= not optimized to compensate their build, but maybe optimal for other builds).
They also make less sense when there is regular or a spam of unavoidable damages (dragon flight green one poison for exemple).
Situationnal stuffs is interesting for theorycrafting.
diedebuff yourself" instead of the straight 25% decrease. The debuff could be decreased movement speed (there's already gear which directly does that) or lowered stamina or even lowered damage (but never much more then the buff provides) but wouldn't be permanent and wouldn't impact other players.Not being able to be healed at all or for example increase aggro by 1000% would just impact other players & classes. If it's temporary like a debuff or curse it would be ok.
It's very sad to know that this elitist thinking still haunts the game. how can you dps anything if you are dead?
IMO the boots are not the problem, but people that only thinks about dealing the most damage possible without considering how to stay alive.
1) In the group play people blame the healer for not being healed - while making it near impossible to be healed.
2) People use them blindly, there is almost religious belief that +% dmg is the ultimate way to go.
ad 2: It is not always the truth.
I have a barbarian, he relies on boodtheft armour enchant to steamroll through the enemies. I put those boots on - and even though I somehow compensated for the incoming healing, he has now harder time to run in Avernus.
On the other hand, my rogue with stealth+smoke bomb+barkshield - even without compensating the incoming healing, he stopped struggling in Avernus and became quite proficient.
The thing is to use your head, not to blindly follow the crowd. Unfortunately, healers now have to listen to all those cries, but... you know, whatever. We are all experienced enough to know that that whatever goes wrong in the game, it is healers fault anyway. (
So absurd that you insist that I should improve my stats yet there are players who are retarding their stats and expecting other players to make up for it.
No my argument stands..
Sort the following groups from the most effective to the least:
1. DPS wearing +5% damage bonus, competent enough to adjust their stats to where they don't die, for most it will be low incoming healing or low negative ~(-5 +5), and competent enough healer that understands that it is in their interest that the whole group function well, so they do try to improve both their gear and skill.
2. DPS not wearing boots, due to some limitation, their skill, or healers skill/gear (this usually comes as a mix of previous too).
3. DPS wearing the boots when their skill / gear and the healers can't compensate.
4. A healer that is petty and will not heal someone with the boots regardless if the DPS can compensate by gear or skill.
Well, to save time I've sorted them.
I'm doing groups 1,2.
Pugs doing groups 3.
You just stated earlier that you are type 4.
Q.E.D
Team effectiveness is about how the team works overall, not a personal squabble of "This is not my job".
Anyone ofc, free to play solo in whatever way to choose.
People cry about how healers no longer can debuff, so how about a feat that reduces outgoing healing by 25% and increases everyone damage by 5%?