At current prices, a Coal Ward costs 750,000 AD or 1000 Zen. Now, if you get a 20% off Refinement Item Coupon, that cost drops to 600,000 AD or 800 Zen. Coals are selling on the AH for 700,399, currently. That means if you sold one, you've gotten your money back, saved 200 Zen AND made 100k in profit, but it's still LESS than what you would pay in Zen.
Not quite right. The seller will have to pay 10% auction house fee for every sold item. So if she sells for 700 kAD, she will get 630 kAD. Profit would be 30 kAD. Still a 5% profit, assuming a coal really sells for 700 kAD - did not check.
But generally you are right. People obviously make a profit this way... (otherwise you would not see the items for sale)
There are two main things that keep an online game alive.
1. Money 2. Players
The Cryptic FTP model allows both to make as much impact as possible.
Within the game there are 3 main groups of players.
1. Cash Rich/Time Poor 2. Time Rich/Cash Poor 3. Casuals
While casuals probably make up the vast majority, it's the other two groups that drive the game. People who don't have time to grind for all the good stuff, get to buy Zen, and swap it with people who don't have ready cash, for AD in order to buy stuff with those AD.
People with time to kill get to grind not only AD, but also get to sell stuff to the Cash Rich, and actually get a lot of the AD back, and continue the cycle. Using the Zen they traded to use VIP or buy Keys, etc.
The problem the current economy (on PC anyway... it;s not an issue on X Box where I mainly play) is that there is no real market for the cash rich to sell Zen, because there simply isn't enough need for them to go to a third party for Astral Diamonds.
I can't say for certain whether that is because most already have plenty of AD or because there is nothing worth buying with AD at the moment.
One thing is certain. It IS far too easy for a well equipped end game player to cap out their daily 100K rAD, so the balance has tipped toward not needing to trade Zen for AD. There's also not as much desirable gear that a grinder can sell for AD to warrant Cash rich players to warrant buying zen to trade in order to get that gear.
Plus gear has been so quickly outdated by each new mod that it's hardly worth the grind and sell model from either side of the economic model.
So, as it stands, the Zen AD Exchange is not in the best position it could be. In order to work at it's best, there needs to be a much greater need/desire for Astral Diamonds from the players who normally don;t have much time, but have the spare cash to spend on Zen.
The notion that if they removed the Exchange, more players would buy Zen does not guarantee anywhere near the additional funds it would require as the richer players would simply not have to buy as much, and many of the poorer players simply can't afford to buy the amount of Zen they need to maintain their in game lifestyle.
For instance, I trade enough AD a month to get about 4 or 5 thousand zen. Remove the Exchange and there is not a cat in Hell's chance that I am spending the region of £500 a year to play. That goes for ANY game. So all a change would net in that regard is me leaving the game, and not grinding the gear and MC stuff that I sell, much of which I am sure is bought by people who don't have time to grind it, or the required AD, and bought their AD with Zen on the Exchange.
i for one would definitly quit playing neverwinter if they removed the exchange. And alot of my friends would too i think. It makes the game 100% Ftp, and that gives boosts neverwinters reputation alot, atleast from my perspective.
Smart players with cash don't use the ZAX to make AD. They purchase packs and dump items onto the AH and wait it out. You will never get your ADs worth of ZEN using the Zax. You can make nearly double your ADs worth if you just use the AH and wait for the sales to go through. Yeah I know sometimes waiting for an AH sale can take some time and that Zax can seem tempting but totally not worth it.
i for one would definitly quit playing neverwinter if they removed the exchange. And alot of my friends would too i think. It makes the game 100% Ftp, and that gives boosts neverwinters reputation alot, atleast from my perspective.
Sorry to hear that you view it that way. Removing the Zax doesn't stop it from being Free to Play. Assuming they did this correctly... oh yeah, well let me go into some details on how it would be "done the right way". The correct way is to either combine or reflect the same items in both markets. Zen becomes a non-existent thing, you either pay cash or virtual currency in the form of AD for the items.
This kind of store fixes the wait for your Zen, AH flipping, and balances the economy with fixed rates.
i for one would definitly quit playing neverwinter if they removed the exchange. And alot of my friends would too i think. It makes the game 100% Ftp, and that gives boosts neverwinters reputation alot, atleast from my perspective.
Sorry to hear that you view it that way. Removing the Zax doesn't stop it from being Free to Play. Assuming they did this correctly... oh yeah, well let me go into some details on how it would be "done the right way". The correct way is to either combine or reflect the same items in both markets. Zen becomes a non-existent thing, you either pay cash or virtual currency in the form of AD for the items.
This kind of store fixes the wait for your Zen, AH flipping, and balances the economy with fixed rates.
It doesn't though, and this has been pointed out to you many times by many different posters.
Zax isn't just about getting zen for mounts. Are you also including VIP in your argument above? Or is this a cash only option. If you say that, then yes it WOULD become pay to win, especially if they implement some of the player suggested changes to VIP, it would definitely become a pay to win. The ONLY way your argument would work is if you can purchase VIP using AD. But now we enter into a strange case here.
If you can buy all items off the Zen shop using AD, what incentive do most players have at all to really drop cash once they are wealthy in AD? They have none. Also most players don't really mind saving AD if they absolutely hate the idea of spending cash.
There is no way Cryptic would ever offer all items on the Zen store for AD. And if there is even 1 good valuable item on the Zen store that you can't get with AD then it does become pay to win.
Zax is currently the ONLY thing that keeps NW from becoming pay to win.
If you want to fix the trading, increase the cap, or even better, don't have a cap at all. The market will find it's right level. If you honestly believe 1 zen would go for 1 million AD then you understand nothing about economics.
i for one would definitly quit playing neverwinter if they removed the exchange. And alot of my friends would too i think. It makes the game 100% Ftp, and that gives boosts neverwinters reputation alot, atleast from my perspective.
Sorry to hear that you view it that way. Removing the Zax doesn't stop it from being Free to Play. Assuming they did this correctly... oh yeah, well let me go into some details on how it would be "done the right way". The correct way is to either combine or reflect the same items in both markets. Zen becomes a non-existent thing, you either pay cash or virtual currency in the form of AD for the items.
This kind of store fixes the wait for your Zen, AH flipping, and balances the economy with fixed rates.
It doesn't though, and this has been pointed out to you many times by many different posters.
Zax isn't just about getting zen for mounts. Are you also including VIP in your argument above? Or is this a cash only option. If you say that, then yes it WOULD become pay to win, especially if they implement some of the player suggested changes to VIP, it would definitely become a pay to win. The ONLY way your argument would work is if you can purchase VIP using AD. But now we enter into a strange case here.
If you can buy all items off the Zen shop using AD, what incentive do most players have at all to really drop cash once they are wealthy in AD? They have none. Also most players don't really mind saving AD if they absolutely hate the idea of spending cash.
There is no way Cryptic would ever offer all items on the Zen store for AD. And if there is even 1 good valuable item on the Zen store that you can't get with AD then it does become pay to win.
Zax is currently the ONLY thing that keeps NW from becoming pay to win.
If you want to fix the trading, increase the cap, or even better, don't have a cap at all. The market will find it's right level. If you honestly believe 1 zen would go for 1 million AD then you understand nothing about economics.
The video said that is good to have controlled currency, like it was with the gold reserve and gold standard in history. But in history nobody could produce significant amount of gold without State approval, taxes and fees. That was the control part. In our game players can produce ZEN as much as they are capable off. So much about control. And the situation is aggravated by 6 years of producing as much ZEN as possible. The ZAX is no control over producing, just control over the exchange rate. The most ZAX can do is to increase the waiting time. That time increase does not hurt the rich players, they have everything else and time. And that time increase produces AD inflation. A monthly ZEN max exchange per account would make sense in this model. One would say that ZEN are produced by real money. But nobody has control over that part , so much about the gold standard economy argument. .
Do you even read what you are write? The issue is in the lack of ZEN as compared to AD. Where is that "producing as much ZEN as possible"? ZEN is extremely easy to control, now it's X$ per ZEN, make it 2X and you get less than half the ZEN produced.
argh
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,220Arc User
My proposed solution of having a Monthly Max exchange per account is more efficient.
I can see the Zax queue will be skyrocket because of that. I usually buy Zen once a long while. With that, this more or less asking me and everybody else to hit the cap every month unless the cap is very high.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
It doesn't though, and this has been pointed out to you many times by many different posters.
Zax isn't just about getting zen for mounts. Are you also including VIP in your argument above? Or is this a cash only option. If you say that, then yes it WOULD become pay to win, especially if they implement some of the player suggested changes to VIP, it would definitely become a pay to win. The ONLY way your argument would work is if you can purchase VIP using AD. But now we enter into a strange case here.
I picked a category at random, you honestly wanted a dozen screenshots of the current market altered just for a simple example? REALLY?
If you can buy all items off the Zen shop using AD, what incentive do most players have at all to really drop cash once they are wealthy in AD? They have none. Also most players don't really mind saving AD if they absolutely hate the idea of spending cash.
Why do players buy Campaign Completion tokens? There are people who want it now, they don't want to wait or grind AD for it. In my example above, all those prices were just made up, but I think the Armored Bear mount is $35 in zen. People buy the mount or it would not be there. The idea is a person who pays cash money for the mount cannot flip it for profit selling it in the AH for a higher amount of AD than already is offered in the store. The only items you can't toss into the AH are those BoP/BoA.
There is no way Cryptic would ever offer all items on the Zen store for AD. And if there is even 1 good valuable item on the Zen store that you can't get with AD then it does become pay to win.
The Zax is currently "the thing" that offers all items on the Zen store for AD. The only difference is the long wait for another user to sell you their leftovers. With the example above, there is no "leftover" zen.
Zax is currently the ONLY thing that keeps NW from becoming pay to win.
If you want to fix the trading, increase the cap, or even better, don't have a cap at all. The market will find it's right level. If you honestly believe 1 zen would go for 1 million AD then you understand nothing about economics.
With your model of no cap, I could buy $50 in zen and post it for 5000 AD each. Guess what will happen? All the other posting below mine are going to increase to my level. I would walk away with 25,000,000 AD. However, I would have to spend it quick, it would soon be worthless, as the AH prices would go through the roof.
With your model of no cap, I could buy $50 in zen and post it for 5000 AD each. Guess what will happen? All the other posting below mine are going to increase to my level. I would walk away with 25,000,000 AD. However, I would have to spend it quick, it would soon be worthless, as the AH prices would go through the roof.
I read over your entire post and you make earlier some okay points. So I just want to focus on this statement you make above. You are tossing out the demand part of the equation. Let me try to explain this to you.
If a player or players are willing to pay 5000 ad per 1 zen then so be it. But I highly doubt the majority of the player base would be willing to pay 5000 ad per 1 zen. Just because a poster can set it for that, does not mean players are willing to pay it and I know for certain that you personally are not willing to pay 5000ad per 1 zen. Am I wrong? The fact that you personally wouldn't pay that much, and I also wouldn't pay that much, how many more wouldn't pay that much?
The thing you miss here is another poster can undercut the above. Which in the early days undercutting happened a lot. I remember the days when zen never had a backlog. It would freely float up and down some times daily, some times weekly but it never even hit the cap. That is because back then the amount of AD in the game was much much less so the value of the AD was much much higher. A player willing to trade 1 zen for 300 ad was actually worth it to them.
Another way to explain this to you is the AH, it works the exact same. A player could post an item on the AH but it does not mean that the item is worth their posting price. It comes down to the player or players who are willing to pay that price or not. If no one is willing to pay that amount then the item will stay there or get undercut.
The point is you are completely ignoring competitive market strategy and demand for value return. Your argument comes out of a lack of understanding of economics. It would be like saying if all the groceries stores started charging $100 for bread that people would just suck it up and spend that for it. No, people don't work that way.
If the ZAX had no cap the true value of Zen would find it's equilibrium price. And I bet you 1 billion AD it is far less than 5000 ad per 1 zen. It's probably around 1200 to 1500. Which I have been saying for a long time.
With your model of no cap, I could buy $50 in zen and post it for 5000 AD each. Guess what will happen? All the other posting below mine are going to increase to my level. I would walk away with 25,000,000 AD. However, I would have to spend it quick, it would soon be worthless, as the AH prices would go through the roof.
I read over your entire post and you make earlier some okay points. So I just want to focus on this statement you make above. You are tossing out the demand part of the equation. Let me try to explain this to you.
If a player or players are willing to pay 5000 ad per 1 zen then so be it. But I highly doubt the majority of the player base would be willing to pay 5000 ad per 1 zen. Just because a poster can set it for that, does not mean players are willing to pay it and I know for certain that you personally are not willing to pay 5000ad per 1 zen. Am I wrong? The fact that you personally wouldn't pay that much, and I also wouldn't pay that much, how many more wouldn't pay that much?
The thing you miss here is another poster can undercut the above. Which in the early days undercutting happened a lot. I remember the days when zen never had a backlog. It would freely float up and down some times daily, some times weekly but it never even hit the cap. That is because back then the amount of AD in the game was much much less so the value of the AD was much much higher. A player willing to trade 1 zen for 300 ad was actually worth it to them.
Another way to explain this to you is the AH, it works the exact same. A player could post an item on the AH but it does not mean that the item is worth their posting price. It comes down to the player or players who are willing to pay that price or not. If no one is willing to pay that amount then the item will stay there or get undercut.
The point is you are completely ignoring competitive market strategy and demand for value return. Your argument comes out of a lack of understanding of economics. It would be like saying if all the groceries stores started charging $100 for bread that people would just suck it up and spend that for it. No, people don't work that way.
If the ZAX had no cap the true value of Zen would find it's equilibrium price. And I bet you 1 billion AD it is far less than 5000 ad per 1 zen. It's probably around 1200 to 1500. Which I have been saying for a long time.
In communist Russia, server calls YOU a liar! Seriously, tho… on the consoles, where active trading has prevented the ZAX from capping for more than a day or three, there is a natural equilibrium which re-asserts itself. This situation is almost impossible on PC, the Russian server in particular. It would take a hard reset (forced trading of all astral diamonds for Bstral diamonds at a 2-1 exchange rate, for example) in order for this economy to recover to such a place.
In communist Russia, server calls YOU a liar! Seriously, tho… on the consoles, where active trading has prevented the ZAX from capping for more than a day or three, there is a natural equilibrium which re-asserts itself. This situation is almost impossible on PC, the Russian server in particular. It would take a hard reset (forced trading of all astral diamonds for Bstral diamonds at a 2-1 exchange rate, for example) in order for this economy to recover to such a place.
You can't use the Russian server as a comparison. The reason is the community populations are different as well as a few other factors.
The thing about PC is the numbers of players who meet their daily refinement caps. It introduces a LOT of ad each day that didn't exist in the game the previous day. This rate of new AD entering the game is much higher than the rate it leaves the game so it constantly causes AD to drop in its purchasing power.
The reason console is a little more stable is because of its population. It doesn't have as many players meeting their daily refinement caps of rough ad so the problem is not as severe. This means the purchasing power of AD on the console is much more stable and worth more than on PC.
I have pointed out these numbers a lot in the past.
Imagine 100 players all meeting their daily rough ad refinement cap each day. that's 100 * 100,000 = 10m new AD entering the game each day. But to be honest, I bet the number of players reaching their daily refinement cap is MUCH higher than 100 players total. You can see dumping 10m ad into the game each day what that means in terms of purchasing power. That AD needs to go somewhere and it sure as hell isn't leaving at that same rate. I bet the amount of AD leaving the game is less than 10% of that.
*edit*
So what this means in terms of Zen?
Well it means the value of zen is actually constantly and steadily rising over time and the value of AD is steadily dropping over time. When cryptic maintains a cap on Zen what the average player discovers is if they were to spend cash and try to exchange this zen for AD using the Zax, they aren't getting their money's worth of AD. So they don't do it.
On console this is a different case, since AD has a higher purchasing power the amount of AD they get for their zen is worth it and so their Zax trading is more "healthy" than on PC.
Note here: When I say the value of zen is rising, its due to the demand. It's currently at 18.5 million zen backlog. This means the demand for zen is constantly rising, which increases it's over all value because more players are "fighting" over who is next in line for their transaction. It's a bottle neck which players learn if they want zen they better place right now or spend months waiting in line later if they wait.
There is some ideas being tossed around for VIP rewards where VIP players could potentially have their refinement caps raised by 10% to 12% above the free to play players.
This is a really bad idea if they ever plan to bring the economy out of the slump its currently in.
Really what they should be doing is looking at ways to give us meaningful AD sinks. The current sinks in game are terrible and players rarely if at all ever use them.
The only sink that gets used consistently is the tax on AH sales. The other forms are avoided.
If they just were to brainstorm meaningful and realistic AD sinks it would actually cause the value of AD to come back in line. The reason is, the more things you can spend AD on that give the player value it means their budget on AD is stretched out more rather than focused in one area of the economy.
Spending money for a companion upgrade is not worth the AD. So players avoid it.
The only other form of sink is in transmutations (transmog) but the cost is so low that its barely significant in terms of how much AD is entering the game each day.
The only other form of sink is in transmutations (transmog) but the cost is so low that its barely significant in terms of how much AD is entering the game each day.
Problem in my opinion is there is no real AD sink tied to useful "consummable" things (reinforcements are the closest thing in my mind), which could justify a constant invest in (once the useful comp are legendary no need to sink ever again AD in, once your BiS stuff in this current mod is reinforced then no need to sink AD again until next mod next stuff, once your enchants are rank 14/15 not any reason to sink AD in the wonderous bazar, etc, etc).
I would like to see , for exemple, "Potion of heroism +2" (same as Sharandar ones, but +2 on characteristics) as a masterwork with a bunch of mastercraft ingredients and (as the reinforcements) an AD cost to pay the artisan instead of GP. Something players who are into crafting would want to mass produce for themselves and also for making money on the AH selling to people who don't want to bother crafting (with -10% AD sink again)
With your model of no cap, I could buy $50 in zen and post it for 5000 AD each. Guess what will happen? All the other posting below mine are going to increase to my level. I would walk away with 25,000,000 AD. However, I would have to spend it quick, it would soon be worthless, as the AH prices would go through the roof.
I read over your entire post and you make earlier some okay points. So I just want to focus on this statement you make above. You are tossing out the demand part of the equation. Let me try to explain this to you.
If a player or players are willing to pay 5000 ad per 1 zen then so be it. But I highly doubt the majority of the player base would be willing to pay 5000 ad per 1 zen. Just because a poster can set it for that, does not mean players are willing to pay it and I know for certain that you personally are not willing to pay 5000ad per 1 zen. Am I wrong? The fact that you personally wouldn't pay that much, and I also wouldn't pay that much, how many more wouldn't pay that much?
It isn't how much people are willing to pay, it is how much the players with Zen are willing to charge. In my example above, as soon as I post 5000 for 5000:1 ratio. Some people will post it just as high -- if not higher -- and some will undercut my price at 4999:1.
The thing you miss here is another poster can undercut the above. Which in the early days undercutting happened a lot. I remember the days when zen never had a backlog. It would freely float up and down some times daily, some times weekly but it never even hit the cap. That is because back then the amount of AD in the game was much much less so the value of the AD was much much higher. A player willing to trade 1 zen for 300 ad was actually worth it to them.
Another way to explain this to you is the AH, it works the exact same. A player could post an item on the AH but it does not mean that the item is worth their posting price. It comes down to the player or players who are willing to pay that price or not. If no one is willing to pay that amount then the item will stay there or get undercut.
The point is you are completely ignoring competitive market strategy and demand for value return. Your argument comes out of a lack of understanding of economics. It would be like saying if all the groceries stores started charging $100 for bread that people would just suck it up and spend that for it. No, people don't work that way.
You cannot compare the luxury of virtual game items to real world needs such as food, clothing, and shelter. There is a much wider range rather than a binary distinction of commodity versus differentiable product. I think you if you actually knew more about me, you would be shocked to know how much I do understand real world economics. I am not one to make assumptions of who you are or the basis of your education or common knowledge in remunerative implied simulations.
If the ZAX had no cap the true value of Zen would find it's equilibrium price. And I bet you 1 billion AD it is far less than 5000 ad per 1 zen. It's probably around 1200 to 1500. Which I have been saying for a long time.
Currently free range players are grinding out 100K per day in dungeons to trade in the Zax (something I will never do). If we hang your price tag on it, at 1200 = 1 Zen = 1¢ that mean they make 83¢ per day, 67¢ at 1500. Back when the Zax traded at 500:1 it was $2 per day.
Meanwhile, I will once more point out, since Cryptic never linked the AH with the exchange in both Champions Online and Star Trek Online, they seldom if ever see much above the 450:1 and most of the time I am seeing 450:1 in Champions. The games lock box key can also be purchased in their AH for the game currency, equal to the gold/silver/copper of Neverwinter. Also nowhere near as hard to obtain in those games. I have always said, it was a epic mistake for them to base the AH on the crystal standard and not the gold standard.
With your model of no cap, I could buy $50 in zen and post it for 5000 AD each. Guess what will happen? All the other posting below mine are going to increase to my level. I would walk away with 25,000,000 AD. However, I would have to spend it quick, it would soon be worthless, as the AH prices would go through the roof.
I read over your entire post and you make earlier some okay points. So I just want to focus on this statement you make above. You are tossing out the demand part of the equation. Let me try to explain this to you.
If a player or players are willing to pay 5000 ad per 1 zen then so be it. But I highly doubt the majority of the player base would be willing to pay 5000 ad per 1 zen. Just because a poster can set it for that, does not mean players are willing to pay it and I know for certain that you personally are not willing to pay 5000ad per 1 zen. Am I wrong? The fact that you personally wouldn't pay that much, and I also wouldn't pay that much, how many more wouldn't pay that much?
It isn't how much people are willing to pay, it is how much the players with Zen are willing to charge. In my example above, as soon as I post 5000 for 5000:1 ratio. Some people will post it just as high -- if not higher -- and some will undercut my price at 4999:1.
The thing you miss here is another poster can undercut the above. Which in the early days undercutting happened a lot. I remember the days when zen never had a backlog. It would freely float up and down some times daily, some times weekly but it never even hit the cap. That is because back then the amount of AD in the game was much much less so the value of the AD was much much higher. A player willing to trade 1 zen for 300 ad was actually worth it to them.
Another way to explain this to you is the AH, it works the exact same. A player could post an item on the AH but it does not mean that the item is worth their posting price. It comes down to the player or players who are willing to pay that price or not. If no one is willing to pay that amount then the item will stay there or get undercut.
The point is you are completely ignoring competitive market strategy and demand for value return. Your argument comes out of a lack of understanding of economics. It would be like saying if all the groceries stores started charging $100 for bread that people would just suck it up and spend that for it. No, people don't work that way.
You cannot compare the luxury of virtual game items to real world needs such as food, clothing, and shelter. There is a much wider range rather than a binary distinction of commodity versus differentiable product. I think you if you actually knew more about me, you would be shocked to know how much I do understand real world economics. I am not one to make assumptions of who you are or the basis of your education or common knowledge in remunerative implied simulations.
If the ZAX had no cap the true value of Zen would find it's equilibrium price. And I bet you 1 billion AD it is far less than 5000 ad per 1 zen. It's probably around 1200 to 1500. Which I have been saying for a long time.
Currently free range players are grinding out 100K per day in dungeons to trade in the Zax (something I will never do). If we hang your price tag on it, at 1200 = 1 Zen = 1¢ that mean they make 83¢ per day, 67¢ at 1500. Back when the Zax traded at 500:1 it was $2 per day.
Meanwhile, I will once more point out, since Cryptic never linked the AH with the exchange in both Champions Online and Star Trek Online, they seldom if ever see much above the 450:1 and most of the time I am seeing 450:1 in Champions. The games lock box key can also be purchased in their AH for the game currency, equal to the gold/silver/copper of Neverwinter. Also nowhere near as hard to obtain in those games. I have always said, it was a epic mistake for them to base the AH on the crystal standard and not the gold standard.
The thing about STO that is different than NW is that ships are a major focus factor and the players who play STO love getting new ships and most of the time those new ships are zen ships. There is no equivalent in NW like that. Not even the mounts in NW are even remotely close to STO ships. This means that in STO there are a lot more players getting zen. But also getting unrefined dilithium is harder to get in STO which makes their equivalent AD much more valuable. The purchasing power of dil is much higher than AD. These are factors that you completely ignore as if they are equal but they are far from equal.
Just like I pointed out, the last time the Zax was trading freely every day was mod 13. It was freely trading around 340 ad per 1 zen for over a month. Sometimes it would drop down to 299 or 300 ad per 1 zen. Then it would begin to rise again.
So your point about players posting the max is simply UNTRUE. If it were true, during this point in time how come players werent just placing the max possible AD price? It's because it was competitive and AD back then was worth more than it is now. So don't try to bullsh!t me and say if there was no cap players would try to get 5000 ad per 1 zen. It is simply not the case.
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darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,259Arc User
they had a good idea putting marks for upgrade and cubes of augmentation in the Bazaar, so it could be a great AD sink.
But then they came with anoger "good idea" and put all of this in the lockboxes, so the first good idea was them pointless and the AH is flooded of this items cheaper than the ones in the bazaar.
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited February 2020
if you were to remove the cap, the price would eventually get to 5000:1, or even 10,000:1, simply because there is a positive reinforcement loop between buying items during zen discounts and then selling them when the discount is over. In addition to that, there is a net positive amount of AD in the economy (AD is being created faster than it is destroyed) and so AD suffers from inflation. Zen is always worth more than the current price of AD, regardless of what the price of Zen is and so the price will always go up. Sure, it might take a while, but it will eventually get there.
How to fix the backlog...and quite possibly increase sales: give more Zen per $1 spent.
Let's just make up some current prices since I don't want to bother looking and keeps the math obvious to see...the outcome will be the same.
$100 for 10k zen 1 person buys = they made $100 now reduce the cost... $75 foir 10k zen and 2 people buy = they made $150 without any added overhead, and more likely to reduce the backlog in ZAX without adding inflation.
How to fix the backlog...and quite possibly increase sales: give more Zen per $1 spent.
Let's just make up some current prices since I don't want to bother looking and keeps the math obvious to see...the outcome will be the same.
$100 for 10k zen 1 person buys = they made $100 now reduce the cost... $75 foir 10k zen and 2 people buy = they made $150 without any added overhead, and more likely to reduce the backlog in ZAX without adding inflation.
The game should be cheaper to play as it ages.
There is no added inflation regardless of the sale price for zen packs. Because the Zax is just a transfer of zen from one player to a player who is offering their AD for that Zen. This isn't creating AD, it's just moving it from one character to another character. The AD isn't being created or destroyed in this system.
The way inflation happens in the game is from the random dungeon queues which give rough AD rewards and those players who run it consistently hit their daily refinement caps every day. This is the source of inflation.
The other thing that hurts the system is there are very very few AD sinks in the game that are meaningful. IF we had more things to spend AD on in game that actually gave the character some value then it would help reduce the amount of AD floating around the game.
The auction house is also just another transfer system, where one player posting an item gets another player's AD for that item. The AD isn't being created or destroyed in this system. Except for the tax on the sale.
The only real way AD gets destroyed is by paying for transmute appearance changes, paying for companion upgrades (which very few players actually use), buying items off the wondrous bizarre (which is also rare due to the fact you can usually get the same items on the AH for less AD), buying your rank 4 workshop upgrade for 5 million AD, which again, very few players actually do since the return on value is so little. And of course ther is the reroll for AD option instead of using reroll tokens, which again, to repeat myself over and over, very few smart players do because it's essentially a scam to get you to spend your AD for basically no return value. Sure you might reroll a nice item but 99 times out of 100 you won't get a nicer item so its actually a waste of AD. And finally, the auction house tax, when someone buys your item, you don't get the full asking AD amount but instead you are taxed 10% of the posting amount which then gets destroyed.
I don't think I have left anything out. If the game had more meaningful AD sinks it would really help increase the value of AD.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,220Arc User
The biggest AD sink of the game are: 1. "temp/perm sink" of the players who quit the game. 2. Players who keep stashing AD and do not spend them. 3. AH transaction fees.
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So if she sells for 700 kAD, she will get 630 kAD. Profit would be 30 kAD.
Still a 5% profit, assuming a coal really sells for 700 kAD - did not check.
But generally you are right. People obviously make a profit this way... (otherwise you would not see the items for sale)
1. Money
2. Players
The Cryptic FTP model allows both to make as much impact as possible.
Within the game there are 3 main groups of players.
1. Cash Rich/Time Poor
2. Time Rich/Cash Poor
3. Casuals
While casuals probably make up the vast majority, it's the other two groups that drive the game.
People who don't have time to grind for all the good stuff, get to buy Zen, and swap it with people who don't have ready cash, for AD in order to buy stuff with those AD.
People with time to kill get to grind not only AD, but also get to sell stuff to the Cash Rich, and actually get a lot of the AD back, and continue the cycle. Using the Zen they traded to use VIP or buy Keys, etc.
The problem the current economy (on PC anyway... it;s not an issue on X Box where I mainly play) is that there is no real market for the cash rich to sell Zen, because there simply isn't enough need for them to go to a third party for Astral Diamonds.
I can't say for certain whether that is because most already have plenty of AD or because there is nothing worth buying with AD at the moment.
One thing is certain. It IS far too easy for a well equipped end game player to cap out their daily 100K rAD, so the balance has tipped toward not needing to trade Zen for AD. There's also not as much desirable gear that a grinder can sell for AD to warrant Cash rich players to warrant buying zen to trade in order to get that gear.
Plus gear has been so quickly outdated by each new mod that it's hardly worth the grind and sell model from either side of the economic model.
So, as it stands, the Zen AD Exchange is not in the best position it could be. In order to work at it's best, there needs to be a much greater need/desire for Astral Diamonds from the players who normally don;t have much time, but have the spare cash to spend on Zen.
The notion that if they removed the Exchange, more players would buy Zen does not guarantee anywhere near the additional funds it would require as the richer players would simply not have to buy as much, and many of the poorer players simply can't afford to buy the amount of Zen they need to maintain their in game lifestyle.
For instance, I trade enough AD a month to get about 4 or 5 thousand zen. Remove the Exchange and there is not a cat in Hell's chance that I am spending the region of £500 a year to play. That goes for ANY game. So all a change would net in that regard is me leaving the game, and not grinding the gear and MC stuff that I sell, much of which I am sure is bought by people who don't have time to grind it, or the required AD, and bought their AD with Zen on the Exchange.
This kind of store fixes the wait for your Zen, AH flipping, and balances the economy with fixed rates.
Zax isn't just about getting zen for mounts. Are you also including VIP in your argument above? Or is this a cash only option. If you say that, then yes it WOULD become pay to win, especially if they implement some of the player suggested changes to VIP, it would definitely become a pay to win. The ONLY way your argument would work is if you can purchase VIP using AD. But now we enter into a strange case here.
If you can buy all items off the Zen shop using AD, what incentive do most players have at all to really drop cash once they are wealthy in AD? They have none. Also most players don't really mind saving AD if they absolutely hate the idea of spending cash.
There is no way Cryptic would ever offer all items on the Zen store for AD. And if there is even 1 good valuable item on the Zen store that you can't get with AD then it does become pay to win.
Zax is currently the ONLY thing that keeps NW from becoming pay to win.
If you want to fix the trading, increase the cap, or even better, don't have a cap at all. The market will find it's right level. If you honestly believe 1 zen would go for 1 million AD then you understand nothing about economics.
The issue is in the lack of ZEN as compared to AD.
Where is that "producing as much ZEN as possible"?
ZEN is extremely easy to control, now it's X$ per ZEN, make it 2X and you get less than half the ZEN produced.
argh
If a player or players are willing to pay 5000 ad per 1 zen then so be it. But I highly doubt the majority of the player base would be willing to pay 5000 ad per 1 zen. Just because a poster can set it for that, does not mean players are willing to pay it and I know for certain that you personally are not willing to pay 5000ad per 1 zen. Am I wrong? The fact that you personally wouldn't pay that much, and I also wouldn't pay that much, how many more wouldn't pay that much?
The thing you miss here is another poster can undercut the above. Which in the early days undercutting happened a lot. I remember the days when zen never had a backlog. It would freely float up and down some times daily, some times weekly but it never even hit the cap. That is because back then the amount of AD in the game was much much less so the value of the AD was much much higher. A player willing to trade 1 zen for 300 ad was actually worth it to them.
Another way to explain this to you is the AH, it works the exact same. A player could post an item on the AH but it does not mean that the item is worth their posting price. It comes down to the player or players who are willing to pay that price or not. If no one is willing to pay that amount then the item will stay there or get undercut.
The point is you are completely ignoring competitive market strategy and demand for value return. Your argument comes out of a lack of understanding of economics. It would be like saying if all the groceries stores started charging $100 for bread that people would just suck it up and spend that for it. No, people don't work that way.
If the ZAX had no cap the true value of Zen would find it's equilibrium price. And I bet you 1 billion AD it is far less than 5000 ad per 1 zen. It's probably around 1200 to 1500. Which I have been saying for a long time.
The thing about PC is the numbers of players who meet their daily refinement caps. It introduces a LOT of ad each day that didn't exist in the game the previous day. This rate of new AD entering the game is much higher than the rate it leaves the game so it constantly causes AD to drop in its purchasing power.
The reason console is a little more stable is because of its population. It doesn't have as many players meeting their daily refinement caps of rough ad so the problem is not as severe. This means the purchasing power of AD on the console is much more stable and worth more than on PC.
I have pointed out these numbers a lot in the past.
Imagine 100 players all meeting their daily rough ad refinement cap each day. that's 100 * 100,000 = 10m new AD entering the game each day. But to be honest, I bet the number of players reaching their daily refinement cap is MUCH higher than 100 players total. You can see dumping 10m ad into the game each day what that means in terms of purchasing power. That AD needs to go somewhere and it sure as hell isn't leaving at that same rate. I bet the amount of AD leaving the game is less than 10% of that.
*edit*
So what this means in terms of Zen?
Well it means the value of zen is actually constantly and steadily rising over time and the value of AD is steadily dropping over time. When cryptic maintains a cap on Zen what the average player discovers is if they were to spend cash and try to exchange this zen for AD using the Zax, they aren't getting their money's worth of AD. So they don't do it.
On console this is a different case, since AD has a higher purchasing power the amount of AD they get for their zen is worth it and so their Zax trading is more "healthy" than on PC.
Note here: When I say the value of zen is rising, its due to the demand. It's currently at 18.5 million zen backlog. This means the demand for zen is constantly rising, which increases it's over all value because more players are "fighting" over who is next in line for their transaction. It's a bottle neck which players learn if they want zen they better place right now or spend months waiting in line later if they wait.
There is some ideas being tossed around for VIP rewards where VIP players could potentially have their refinement caps raised by 10% to 12% above the free to play players.
This is a really bad idea if they ever plan to bring the economy out of the slump its currently in.
Really what they should be doing is looking at ways to give us meaningful AD sinks. The current sinks in game are terrible and players rarely if at all ever use them.
The only sink that gets used consistently is the tax on AH sales. The other forms are avoided.
If they just were to brainstorm meaningful and realistic AD sinks it would actually cause the value of AD to come back in line. The reason is, the more things you can spend AD on that give the player value it means their budget on AD is stretched out more rather than focused in one area of the economy.
Spending money for a companion upgrade is not worth the AD. So players avoid it.
The only other form of sink is in transmutations (transmog) but the cost is so low that its barely significant in terms of how much AD is entering the game each day.
I would like to see , for exemple, "Potion of heroism +2" (same as Sharandar ones, but +2 on characteristics) as a masterwork with a bunch of mastercraft ingredients and (as the reinforcements) an AD cost to pay the artisan instead of GP.
Something players who are into crafting would want to mass produce for themselves and also for making money on the AH selling to people who don't want to bother crafting (with -10% AD sink again)
Meanwhile, I will once more point out, since Cryptic never linked the AH with the exchange in both Champions Online and Star Trek Online, they seldom if ever see much above the 450:1 and most of the time I am seeing 450:1 in Champions. The games lock box key can also be purchased in their AH for the game currency, equal to the gold/silver/copper of Neverwinter. Also nowhere near as hard to obtain in those games. I have always said, it was a epic mistake for them to base the AH on the crystal standard and not the gold standard.
Just like I pointed out, the last time the Zax was trading freely every day was mod 13. It was freely trading around 340 ad per 1 zen for over a month. Sometimes it would drop down to 299 or 300 ad per 1 zen. Then it would begin to rise again.
So your point about players posting the max is simply UNTRUE. If it were true, during this point in time how come players werent just placing the max possible AD price? It's because it was competitive and AD back then was worth more than it is now. So don't try to bullsh!t me and say if there was no cap players would try to get 5000 ad per 1 zen. It is simply not the case.
But then they came with anoger "good idea" and put all of this in the lockboxes, so the first good idea was them pointless and the AH is flooded of this items cheaper than the ones in the bazaar.
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
Let's just make up some current prices since I don't want to bother looking and keeps the math obvious to see...the outcome will be the same.
$100 for 10k zen 1 person buys = they made $100
now reduce the cost...
$75 foir 10k zen and 2 people buy = they made $150 without any added overhead, and more likely to reduce the backlog in ZAX without adding inflation.
The game should be cheaper to play as it ages.
The way inflation happens in the game is from the random dungeon queues which give rough AD rewards and those players who run it consistently hit their daily refinement caps every day. This is the source of inflation.
The other thing that hurts the system is there are very very few AD sinks in the game that are meaningful. IF we had more things to spend AD on in game that actually gave the character some value then it would help reduce the amount of AD floating around the game.
The auction house is also just another transfer system, where one player posting an item gets another player's AD for that item. The AD isn't being created or destroyed in this system. Except for the tax on the sale.
The only real way AD gets destroyed is by paying for transmute appearance changes, paying for companion upgrades (which very few players actually use), buying items off the wondrous bizarre (which is also rare due to the fact you can usually get the same items on the AH for less AD), buying your rank 4 workshop upgrade for 5 million AD, which again, very few players actually do since the return on value is so little. And of course ther is the reroll for AD option instead of using reroll tokens, which again, to repeat myself over and over, very few smart players do because it's essentially a scam to get you to spend your AD for basically no return value. Sure you might reroll a nice item but 99 times out of 100 you won't get a nicer item so its actually a waste of AD. And finally, the auction house tax, when someone buys your item, you don't get the full asking AD amount but instead you are taxed 10% of the posting amount which then gets destroyed.
I don't think I have left anything out. If the game had more meaningful AD sinks it would really help increase the value of AD.
1. "temp/perm sink" of the players who quit the game.
2. Players who keep stashing AD and do not spend them.
3. AH transaction fees.