I do appreciate all of the feedback in this thread. To reiterate from the original post, this isn't a final balance pass on the game nor will it bring all dps classes as close together as we'd like. This was a quicker, less thorough and less polished set of changes in order to get some adjustments in quicker. There will continue to be other adjustments in the future.
Assassin wasn't adjusted at all as it is the current target for where to balance the other dps paths too.
Blademaster wasn't initially in this set of adjustments as it is the path closest to Assassin already. We will add in a few minor tweaks to Blademaster for next week:
Brash Strike - magnitude increased to 90
Frenzy - magnitude increased to 750 and base cooldown reduced to 18s
Battlerage - now increases damage done by 20%
Relentless Battlerage - now decreases Battlerage damage to 14%
It is unlikely we will add additional balance changes before M18 launches, as we will be using that time for bug fixing and getting a solid stable build ready for launch. We will continue more balance changes in the future, especially once these ones have settled in and we have fresh data to make sure we're still tackling the biggest balance priorities first.
What does this mean?
Relentless Battlerage - now decreases Battlerage damage to 14%
Nice try anyway but please buff encounters that we use.
Only thing, I would change for Mighty Leap is to increase range from 40' to 50' and cooldown decrease. Brash Strike - please, can you change this scary fight animation? it is very slow, imprecise, useless..
Vengeance Pursuit - base magnitude increased to 150, stealthed bonus magnitude increased to 550, but also fixed issues with multi-proccing when it shouldn't have been
Dagger Threat - maximum benefit is now 20' instead of 15'
Gutterborn's Touch - no longer increases awareness, now increases ranged damage by 5%
Blitz - stealthed usage no reduces encounter cooldowns by 2s
Coming from a Rogue player; WK has some nice changes but it still not attractive to me throwing knives is "meh" at best. The Assassin path is middle of the road because the other Classes DPS path is under performing. The Rogue needs a few things to happen in IMO for the sake of class to the class as a whole. List below no particular order.
We need an AOE at-will all our at-wills are single target. DF can hit multiple targets depending on positioning. Shadow of Demise needs to be on the Assassin path it is a melee feat not a ranged feat. Assassin needs feats that buff it's encounters the way other class do. WhisperKnife needs a ranged feats that actually benefit the play style. Shadow's Flurry should spawn on the opposite side of the enemy to give the player CA during the combo Execution is a useless feat that is not used and should redone Hastily Sharpened Blades would benefit more from 10 to 15% critical severity Skullcracker should daze all enemies when using smoke bomb Knife's Edge grants Assassinate and Lashing blade 10% more damage If you will not give SoD back to Assassin path then revamp Assassin's Target to apply a stack of targeted, stacks 10x after the 10 stacks they become "Targeted" and take "10% more damage from all sources"
Focused - now increases 2% per second to a maximum of 20%
To The Wind - now grants a 5% boost to Throw Caution
Skirmisher's Gambit - now reduces Critical Strike by 10,000 and increaes crit severity by 25%
Asking players to give up 10K in a stat for a 5% nerf is insane, who at the meeting felt this was a good trade off? the 3K and 30% was ok, now we must give up 7% more to deal 5% less. Not a good look @noworries#8859.
Commander's Strike: Increase magnitude from 400 to 560
Tremor: Increase magnitude from 250 to 340
Griffon's Wrath: Increase total magnitude from 840 to 1050
Onslaught: Increase magnitude from 300 to 420
Earthshaker: Increase magnitude from 580 to 800
Shockwave: Increase magnitude from 620 to 870
Momentum: Increase magnitude from +200 Bull Charge to +300
Heavier Slash: Increase magnitude from +200 Heavy Slash to +300
Prepared Slam: Increase magnitude from 200 to 280
Richochet: Increase damage output by reducing the damage reduction from 30%/60%/70% to 20%50%60%
I just started playing a Fighter and these changes are good. I don't agree with a DPS path having to block to gain vengeance. If we are block then we are not DPSing. Yes we gain vengeance from attacking once 50% or more. But a DPS path should gain vengeance whenever they attack, and a Tank path should gain vengeance when they block. My does this class have Dailies that are weaker than encounters? If they are weaker in magnitude to an encounter can they really be called dailies?
Rogue - Setsuna F Seiei (PC) Rogue - Setsuna F Seiei (XB1) Rogue - Serenity (PS4)
Hi everybody. @noworries#8859 If you're in time, please reject the Brash strike increase. It's useless. For 2 reasons: 1) brash strike is currently 0.8 times Relentless slash DPS (out of battlerage). The boost would bring it to 0.8*90/85= 0.84 2) Brash strike is almost uneffected by battlerage speed up.
1) + 2) = Brash strike is not and will not be an option. As proposed by Itsmithneko, put brash strike in the shared powers, put sure strike in the dps path, where it belongs, and buff it instead.
Battleragedamage increase from 10 to 14% is indeed a big thing, but it also works on AOE, where Barbarian is already close to the top performance.
Frenzy tweak would bring it from the current 36.27 to 41.6 magnitude per second. It's a good idea imo, because it goes in the direction of boosting single target damage.
1) + 2) = Brash strike is not and will not be an option. As proposed by Itsmithneko, put brash strike in the shared powers, put sure strike in the dps path, where it belongs, and buff it instead.
agree IF the last hit become AOE. that, for sentinels, can be really, really interesting (no diference for bladmasters). Devs, we have a deal?
hoping to renew ARCANISt CLASS FEATURE eye of the storm : granting 100% crit for x seconds. cooldown x second? how about a feat which grants increase %damage base on control bonus. max x% increase. sounds cool. because there are so many useless feats they have at least players have different choices of equipment build.
for hunter ranger skirmish gambit increase crit severity for every 2000? crit strike exceeding target crit avoidance max %increase.
After reading the thread, I feel after MOD 16, all that is happening is we keep being told to wait for changes to the barbarian. By the time the "changes" get made, the game will be going through another rework on the classes. This has been confirmed by saying that barb dps is above the average of the new "base-line" and now target of all classes, the assassin. No changes are coming in MOD 18. So wait until MOD 19. Reminds me of a apartment building owner and saying there's no use in fixing the building, because better materials will be on market in 1 year, so lets wait for that and do nothing. In the meantime, people move out of the apartment building. That's whats happening to the player base, they are moving out, because they are tired of hearing for the past 8 months that changes and balance will come. Now we're being told that barbs are above the intended target dps for all classes, so no changes for 4+ more months, if at all. Anyone starting a barb at this point, I'd tell them save your time and money on this class and stay away from it. You have had no intention of working on it for the past 8 months, or the next 4.
1) Brash strike is really clunky, Relentless Slash is the only way to go even with these changes. Useless buff. 2) Boost to Frenzy doesn't mean anything. Because of long cooldown, Bloodletter, IBS and Punishing Charge still has more DPS than Frenzy. So it still has no place in single target encounters. Also it has a clunky and long animation too, it doesn't target the enemy, so sometimes you don't even hit the enemy. Useless buff again. 3) Instead of getting rid of the -5% damage part from the feat, you increase the base damage, which results in 4% damage increase. Just remove the minus part, and its good. Why does it have to have a negative effect? At this point I'm thinking of not selecting any boons on last column lol. Half of the feats are terrible and you are not even touching them...
When are you going to listen to your players and their feedback ? After there is no people to play it ?
... i just have one important point: w/o Demon Lord's, that dps classes will have more defensive status/hp using lvl80 sets, that means... well, tanks in general are not too important, so think about improve our damage too. i can change my gwf back to bladmasters. but, you know... we already dont have much tanks outside.
Just wow, that means my pally tank still gets to just "play dress up", as he contributes nothing to damage in any group content, and can't hardly hold aggro when in a group of players where all the dps, and the healer have 30% or more power than my pally. When LoMM was the new thing and I was built properly for it(and not spend $300.00 on a legendary mount with power bonus) most teams(especially in random groups) would have at least one person that was constantly complaining about me "not doing my job" when in fact I was spamming smite so much, along with oath strike. Yet I still couldn't hold aggro to save my bacon.
@devs, please buff up the damaging powers, or threat generation of Paladin tanks. I have virtually given up playing my tank(except for rad farming) as he has nothing else to do.
Frenzy outperforms Punishing Charge in single target fights by quite a lot. I have tested this as well as Viral and the proof is available on his discord channel. I welcome this buff, but would like more cooldown reduction. Both last feats has penalties, why a feat has to make a class weaker I don't understand. That does need to change.
Punishing Charge is there to proc Trample. If you have Swarm mount power, it enables your second part of the Trample even on bosses. So if you have a good Swarm debuff uptime, Trample outperforms Steel Blitz. Steel Blitz is about 6-8% of our damage usually. Trample is 5% all the time, and 15% on Swarm debuffs. For artifact calls in Tomm and dps checks like phase 2 or phase 4, this way Trample increases our burst damage by a lot. And if you have multiple Swarms, you can coordinate with your team and increase its uptime for more your selfish damage.
Also Punishing Charge gives you utility, in some cases dashing is really useful. Frenzy locks you in ground for about 1-1.5 seconds, and since its not targeted, if your target teleports or runs away, it can miss. Punishing Charge also has instant cast time, so you can hit 2-3 more atwills compared to cast time of Frenzy, resulting in better DPS. Frenzy might be better on tests and dummies, but in fights like Tomm and new dungeons second or third boss where half of the ground needs to be dodged, Punishing Charge is more useful.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Good uptime on Swarm debuff? 10 seconds out of 60... Most bosses are control immune so the 2nd part of Trample doesn't not apply to them. Feel free to test your DPS vs my Barbarian inside TOMM.
As I said Swarm enables the second part of it, another thing that does is Courage Breaker from Rouges. But they have better dailies to use. If 4-5 dps all have swarms, you can have a good uptime, by not using at the same time, just like using t-rexes. But this is for selfish Barbarian dps when using Trample. And please stop with the childish dps race ideas. Im trying to talk with facts. Swarm was the reason Gwfs were switching to Iron Vanguard before m16, because it was enabling Trample agaisnt bosses. That Iron Vanguard build was more optimal for one phasing bosses.
But this is not the correct place for this discussion, let's not move away from the main topic class balances here.
Why not give the Tyrant Curse a debuff of 5% target damage for the all group. Similar to Barb. In ToMM, this would give CW weight
Why not stop with that support thinking? A debuff is ok on SoulWeaver but as Hellbringer all i want to do is DAMAGE, not being the debuff/support slave for the new top DPS class like the old Templock trash. It's that hard to understand that if we are DPS we want to do damage? Or should Warlock stay as the impotent class of the game for ages meanwhile all other classes can have their mod of shining as DPS?
Arcanist have debuff skills, Rogue have debuff skills. Are they bad damagers?
Or is the fact that some DPS class can impose a buff/debuff, but another does not - is this normal?
Another proof that Craptic don't know what they're doing... I was waiting for a nerf (and this spell had to be nerfed anyway) but certainly not this one... You could have made the shield affected by armor pen, or just lower the resistance percentage but no, you decided to kill it.
Thanks for making all wizards having to give up on the dps role and forcing us to change our whole stuff, insignias, etc. Because as we don't have our only survival tool anymore, we now have to massively invest in defensive stats and so, lose the crit that allows us to proc our class features from which we are dependant to deal damage... Even more, now that you nerfed the 2 presences class features !
This is not a problem by itself but we won't have any role anymore ! Completely defensive Wizard was good when we had real control, when oppressor was buffed. Without this, it has always been bad !
And now that we only have dps feats and powers, with no control bonus, believe me, it won't be a thing anymore.
@noworries#8859 If you were going for minor changes, why did you have to do a major change in pvp gameplay, build and stuff ??? Do at least something to give us a role before mod 18 comes out, or reconsider Shield nerf to be more... balanced. Like what i suggested before or if you really want to completely change shield's effect, put a higher percentage and a way to increase it, for example, with arcane stacks. Like 80% base (as it doesn't seem to take buffs into account) and 2% more for each arcane stack you have. Or just 100% base with no restriction. It's a 17.2 sec cooldown spell ! We won't have our shield 100% of the time !
Post edited by tenetomb on
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited December 2019
I just tested it shield appears to be giving closer to 15% of your hitpoints as temp or not properly calculation all your bonus Hitpoints correctly... in this state it is a dead spell for pve and pointless to slot in mastery as it does not give any additional "shieldyneess either" only explosive potential ..also you can no longer chose to control when you want to detonate it strategically any more to push at the right moment so effectively trolling your party due to having no control when it spontaneously scatters mobs due to destabilization
also when cast again (after cooldown) it pulse gives no temp hitpoints and goes on buggy cooldown expected result: refreshing your temp hitpoint pool (regardless of depletion level ) and optionally pulsing rewarding you for not completely depleting the shield
there is no risk reward or timed strategic counter play to be had with the new shield at all only even more cw bugs nor is there more temp hit points when its used on mastery .. or layers of shield absorption as it used to be
also shield used to give some level of crowd control resistance not sure if that is applied or not yet
I just tested it shield appears to be giving closer to 15% of your hitpoints as temp or not properly calculation all your bonus Hitpoints correctly... in this state it is a dead spell for pve and pointless to slot in mastery as it does not give any additional "shieldyneess either" only explosive potential ..also you can no longer chose to control when you want to detonate it strategically any more to push at the right moment so effectively trolling your party due to having no control when it spontaneously scatters mobs due to destabilization
I do wonder if they will come back and give the same answer they gave to the Tanks .When they said when we pointed out our lose of hit points. That it was not supposed to be giving us that many hit points to being with. It does seem that they have taken issue with all the bonus Hitpoints we all currently get . But I do hope you will be given a better answer than the Tanks got.
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited December 2019
Perhaps shield on mastery as an alternative opposite use /vs not on tab . should grant more hitpoints / a shorter cooldown . or implode pulling/sucking mobs in when it breaks instead of pushing them away . so they stay in your aoe zone of damage/ dont troll the party /scatter mobs when you dont intend them to ..
also keeping shield on normal foruse when you do want to push and scatter mobs ..and can detonate / break at your command
Fighter- griffon wrath need a faster animation Faster vengeance refill, if not i have to attack before than tank to take vengeance up, and moreover if i have to shield my self i cant di dps
CW shield has been very overpowered in PvP for a long time. Perhaps CW will no longer be the ranged tank dps burst class it is in m17, but will actually have to decide which path to go, as do most other classes.
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
CW shield has been very overpowered in PvP for a long time. Perhaps CW will no longer be the ranged tank dps burst class it is in m17, but will actually have to decide which path to go, as do most other classes.
Thats fine and all however most of the server population is fledgling pve cws will not agree when they are just trying to survive with thier shield and do dailies and hard content on alts and will say it was nerfed cause of pvp .when there are like what 10 pvp cws? do you really think the\ devs adjuted shield for the sake of balancing 10 pvp cws lol ? perhaps the shield should have 2 different modes then pvp and pve mode so pvp is not blamed for every game nerf as usual ...
Forgot to mention the increase of its Radius from 12' to at maybe 20'
You mean the first safe jump with a 12' radius and the second attack jump with a 20' radius? Really I don't know if that makes sense, I'd rather see an increase range Mighty Leap from 40' to 50/60'
The orcus set is nerfed. :-( All other sets are trimmed to daily, which is not good for a warlock. The action points building is unfortunately absolutely miserable. How about consuming half the AP or building a buff for AP faster?
Comments
Brash Strike - please, can you change this scary fight animation? it is very slow, imprecise, useless..
We need an AOE at-will all our at-wills are single target. DF can hit multiple targets depending on positioning.
Shadow of Demise needs to be on the Assassin path it is a melee feat not a ranged feat.
Assassin needs feats that buff it's encounters the way other class do.
WhisperKnife needs a ranged feats that actually benefit the play style.
Shadow's Flurry should spawn on the opposite side of the enemy to give the player CA during the combo
Execution is a useless feat that is not used and should redone
Hastily Sharpened Blades would benefit more from 10 to 15% critical severity
Skullcracker should daze all enemies when using smoke bomb
Knife's Edge grants Assassinate and Lashing blade 10% more damage
If you will not give SoD back to Assassin path then revamp Assassin's Target to apply a stack of targeted, stacks 10x after the 10 stacks they become "Targeted" and take "10% more damage from all sources" Asking players to give up 10K in a stat for a 5% nerf is insane, who at the meeting felt this was a good trade off? the 3K and 30% was ok, now we must give up 7% more to deal 5% less. Not a good look @noworries#8859.
I just started playing a Fighter and these changes are good. I don't agree with a DPS path having to block to gain vengeance. If we are block then we are not DPSing. Yes we gain vengeance from attacking once 50% or more. But a DPS path should gain vengeance whenever they attack, and a Tank path should gain vengeance when they block. My does this class have Dailies that are weaker than encounters? If they are weaker in magnitude to an encounter can they really be called dailies?
Rogue - Setsuna F Seiei (XB1)
Rogue - Serenity (PS4)
@noworries#8859
If you're in time, please reject the Brash strike increase. It's useless. For 2 reasons:
1) brash strike is currently 0.8 times Relentless slash DPS (out of battlerage). The boost would bring it to 0.8*90/85= 0.84
2) Brash strike is almost uneffected by battlerage speed up.
1) + 2) = Brash strike is not and will not be an option.
As proposed by Itsmithneko, put brash strike in the shared powers, put sure strike in the dps path, where it belongs, and buff it instead.
Battleragedamage increase from 10 to 14% is indeed a big thing, but it also works on AOE, where Barbarian is already close to the top performance.
Frenzy tweak would bring it from the current 36.27 to 41.6 magnitude per second. It's a good idea imo, because it goes in the direction of boosting single target damage.
Thanks for reading this.
As proposed by Itsmithneko, put brash strike in the shared powers, put sure strike in the dps path, where it belongs, and buff it instead.
agree IF the last hit become AOE. that, for sentinels, can be really, really interesting (no diference for bladmasters). Devs, we have a deal?
eye of the storm : granting 100% crit for x seconds. cooldown x second?
how about a feat which grants increase %damage base on control bonus. max x% increase. sounds cool. because there are so many useless feats they have at least players have different choices of equipment build.
for hunter ranger
skirmish gambit increase crit severity for every 2000? crit strike exceeding target crit avoidance max %increase.
2) Boost to Frenzy doesn't mean anything. Because of long cooldown, Bloodletter, IBS and Punishing Charge still has more DPS than Frenzy. So it still has no place in single target encounters. Also it has a clunky and long animation too, it doesn't target the enemy, so sometimes you don't even hit the enemy. Useless buff again.
3) Instead of getting rid of the -5% damage part from the feat, you increase the base damage, which results in 4% damage increase. Just remove the minus part, and its good. Why does it have to have a negative effect? At this point I'm thinking of not selecting any boons on last column lol. Half of the feats are terrible and you are not even touching them...
When are you going to listen to your players and their feedback ? After there is no people to play it ?
@devs, please buff up the damaging powers, or threat generation of Paladin tanks. I have virtually given up playing my tank(except for rad farming) as he has nothing else to do.
Also Punishing Charge gives you utility, in some cases dashing is really useful. Frenzy locks you in ground for about 1-1.5 seconds, and since its not targeted, if your target teleports or runs away, it can miss. Punishing Charge also has instant cast time, so you can hit 2-3 more atwills compared to cast time of Frenzy, resulting in better DPS. Frenzy might be better on tests and dummies, but in fights like Tomm and new dungeons second or third boss where half of the ground needs to be dodged, Punishing Charge is more useful.
you forgot to mention the nerf on cw shield.
Swarm was the reason Gwfs were switching to Iron Vanguard before m16, because it was enabling Trample agaisnt bosses. That Iron Vanguard build was more optimal for one phasing bosses.
But this is not the correct place for this discussion, let's not move away from the main topic class balances here.
Are they bad damagers?
Or is the fact that some DPS class can impose a buff/debuff, but another does not - is this normal?
Another proof that Craptic don't know what they're doing...
I was waiting for a nerf (and this spell had to be nerfed anyway) but certainly not this one...
You could have made the shield affected by armor pen, or just lower the resistance percentage but no, you decided to kill it.
Thanks for making all wizards having to give up on the dps role and forcing us to change our whole stuff, insignias, etc.
Because as we don't have our only survival tool anymore, we now have to massively invest in defensive stats and so, lose the crit that allows us to proc our class features from which we are dependant to deal damage...
Even more, now that you nerfed the 2 presences class features !
This is not a problem by itself but we won't have any role anymore ! Completely defensive Wizard was good when we had real control, when oppressor was buffed. Without this, it has always been bad !
And now that we only have dps feats and powers, with no control bonus, believe me, it won't be a thing anymore.
@noworries#8859 If you were going for minor changes, why did you have to do a major change in pvp gameplay, build and stuff ??? Do at least something to give us a role before mod 18 comes out, or reconsider Shield nerf to be more... balanced.
Like what i suggested before or if you really want to completely change shield's effect, put a higher percentage and a way to increase it, for example, with arcane stacks. Like 80% base (as it doesn't seem to take buffs into account) and 2% more for each arcane stack you have. Or just 100% base with no restriction.
It's a 17.2 sec cooldown spell ! We won't have our shield 100% of the time !
also when cast again (after cooldown) it pulse gives no temp hitpoints and goes on buggy cooldown
expected result: refreshing your temp hitpoint pool (regardless of depletion level ) and optionally pulsing rewarding you for not completely depleting the shield
there is no risk reward or timed strategic counter play to be had with the new shield at all only even more cw bugs
nor is there more temp hit points when its used on mastery .. or layers of shield absorption as it used to be
also shield used to give some level of crowd control resistance not sure if that is applied or not yet
also keeping shield on normal foruse when you do want to push and scatter mobs ..and can detonate / break at your command
griffon wrath need a faster animation
Faster vengeance refill, if not i have to attack before than tank to take vengeance up, and moreover if i have to shield my self i cant di dps
when they are just trying to survive with thier shield and do dailies and hard content on alts
and will say it was nerfed cause of pvp .when there are like what 10 pvp cws?
do you really think the\ devs adjuted shield for the sake of balancing 10 pvp cws lol ?
perhaps the shield should have 2 different modes then pvp and pve mode
so pvp is not blamed for every game nerf as usual ...
Sorry, can we be satisfied that the current changes are the only changes that cryptic will make for balancing, before mod 18?
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80