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M18 Class Balance Adjustments

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  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    edited December 2019
    I would like to start with advising to the developers to not take any comments from the player base seriously here @noworries#8859

    I do feel like that barbarians definitely need some kind of adjustment, 110% for tank paragon and some to their ST damage on the dps paragon, that is less than what you buffed arbiter. Please consider that.

    I see some good changes to hellbringer and Dreadnought, they are at least buffs which we all can agree.

    I can only really advice on my own Main i.e. Arbiter. Really glad that overall it is a buff. Do note that one of them is a bugfix so it shouldn't be here i.e. the radiant shift damage to 100. What really bothered me was that Hellbringer and Arbiter are suppose to be getting similar type of buffs and you know that very well from looking at the statistics.

    Arbiter has one bugfix, and one at will increase by 5 magnitude only and i am telling you, if an arbiter is at willing for dps, he is not a main. The Angel of death with 30 stacks takes 1:30 minutes minimum with all divinity class features and feats and with your change Perfect balance actually is still the best, so really you can only choose one or the other.

    In conclusion, the only buff is the 1% dmg per PB stack and i am very happy for it. I was thinking that you would probably decrease some divinity requirement from Forgemaster and/or daunting light? If not that then maybe tweak the proc chance of sudden verdict or anything that would require skill to achieve? Divinity is the main reason why this class is doing so bad and no other dps class has to maintain divinity to do dps. I feel like the developer team is actually thinking that managing divinity and maintaining dps is easy. It is probably the hardest combat feature in this game i believe. So in reality you are calculating arbiter dps with theoretical values without taking the divinity management into account and so i can predict that you won't see any change in arbiter dps with your buffs to the most of the population but that still needs to be confirmed.

    But Congratulations to you for making progress, i can seriously see some very positive changes to this game. A word of advice would be that 2020 is a MMORPG year, many MMO's are scheduled to be released next year so Neverwinter will have more competition.
    Post edited by sobi#1980 on
  • bifflincultebifflinculte Member Posts: 178 Arc User
    edited December 2019

    Ofc all the bugs you created with the thaumaturge nerfs should be adressed. Please please fix the wizards bugs and we will live with the nerfs.

    None of fire related spells/feats has been fixed yet, making smolder uneffective in aoe situations. Almost all of them are heavily bugged: Smolder/Rimefire, Fireball, Critical Conflagration, Critical Burn, Directed Flames...

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1251668/thaumaturge-wizard-current-bugs-with-smolder
    Post edited by bifflinculte on
  • ramesh84ramesh84 Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    Hello there!
    I'm very positive and want to thank you Dev's team to listen feed-backs and implement this short time fix for balancing, would like to highlights two concern:
    - dreadnought: while a magnitude increase is surely better than nothing, we are talking with class with probably the highest magnitude in game. If it has the same effort, would you consider a cooldown reduction for this or next balancing adjustment? Increasing magnitude only would have impact as well in PvP, as boosting burst damage.
    - demonlord set nerf is more than welcome to me, as finally allowing some gear progression, but has also significant impacts on class balance as well, as the second best option, aka music box set, is performing way better on classes with low damage but high utility dailies. I am not invoking for Arcturia's set nerf, tho would be nice having an additional option performing the same for other classes.
    Ty for reading and have a nice day!
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 768 Arc User

    why you dont make for classes with two diffferent roles like barbarian-fighter-cleric when they switch to dps loadout to have 3 offense slot and when they switch to tank or healing to have the original slots?

    for example barbarian: when dps 3 offence companion slots. when tank 3 defence companion slots.

    Personally, I would prefer offence (or utility) companion slots on tanks - it gives you much better variety of companions with mightier HP bonuses.
    (I am just being practical, even if the concept itself is funny)
  • coolgor28#5062 coolgor28 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 79 Arc User
    So No barbarian rework?

    As many have said already can you change the deffence slot at least. or change the companion make some that are on pair with the offensive ones that we can use on defence.

    Now for aeo I think is in a good place.

    For single Target we are behind a lot

    We use encounters and use rage after for one atwill just one for single and aeo that don't make sense.

    Encounters have very long cd
    as our feats don't help worst last feat of any class, why we need to be penalized to chose one feat whatever you chose is bad for us.

    Now for barb tanks most useless threat encounters on very long cd , can we lower them at least they don't break anything we don't have anything else to get agro our atwill can't keep agro.

    Now tab Every other tank provide extra shield .if we use tab we lose shield you can't stop it if don't won't anymore to block so we are without block at all.

    This you can see on tomm runs is bad if you use tab and and still have agro deplet your shield and you can't stop it .you can't play smart when to block or not 90% of the run I don't use it as it cause more problem then helps.
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  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,107 Arc User

    Ofc all the bugs you created with the thaumaturge nerfs should be adressed. Please please fix the wizards bugs and we will live with the nerfs.

    None of fire related spells/feats has been fixed yet. And almost all of them are heavily bugged: Smolder/Rimefire, Fireball, Critical Conflagration, Critical Burn, Directed Flames...

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1251668/thaumaturge-wizard-current-bugs-with-smolder
    Sad to hear that... Is unnaceptable that they dont fix thaumaturge. @noworries#8859 please fix thaum bugs before release, this paragon path was working before mod 17 so it shouldnt be hard to fix...

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  • fenrus#5571 fenrus Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    Arcanist's damage is NOT STABLE. Most of it comes from random procs and weird bugs which makes it playstile variable to most people. I think it could roughly be 60% of it.
    Lowering those chances sure impacts dps, but you can't calculate all variables.
    (and for sure bugs don't help)
  • keraunos#8365 keraunos Member Posts: 7 Arc User

    So No barbarian rework?



    As many have said already can you change the deffence slot at least. or change the companion make some that are on pair with the offensive ones that we can use on defence.



    Now for aeo I think is in a good place.



    For single Target we are behind a lot



    We use encounters and use rage after for one atwill just one for single and aeo that don't make sense.



    Encounters have very long cd

    as our feats don't help worst last feat of any class, why we need to be penalized to chose one feat whatever you chose is bad for us.



    Now for barb tanks most useless threat encounters on very long cd , can we lower them at least they don't break anything we don't have anything else to get agro our atwill can't keep agro.



    Now tab Every other tank provide extra shield .if we use tab we lose shield you can't stop it if don't won't anymore to block so we are without block at all.



    This you can see on tomm runs is bad if you use tab and and still have agro deplet your shield and you can't stop it .you can't play smart when to block or not 90% of the run I don't use it as it cause more problem then helps.

    I add that it is offensive to have done something for ALL classes except for the barbarian. at this point I would ask for a rerollclass token, because so much is understood that you have no love for this class and it is a burden for you .. take it away
    And I would like to add that most players do not want to make tank if they are barbs...
    Had I known your intentions before I would have spent money on it and would have chosen those that for you must be dps
  • cookiewookiee#8732 cookiewookiee Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    Thank you very much for listening to feedback and making some balances even in mod18. I think it is a good strategy to start with smaller buffs and increase them little by little, so as to even out the differences in incremental steps rather than risking creating new imbalances.
  • keraunos#8365 keraunos Member Posts: 7 Arc User

    It would be more honest if you admited that you are making barbarian classe unviable pm purpose so you can eliminate it from the game because that's the only logical explanation for what you are doing with it. Maybe Thomas Foss was bullied by a barbarian in high school, I don't know but this is ridiculous. Have the dignity to tell us "we hate you guys, get out of our game already"

    I think the same
  • foxxy#4211 foxxy Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 558 Arc User
    @noworries#8859
    We need wizards' bugs fixed so that the dps nerfs are not too impacting. Additionally, Aoe powers need a revamp. While other classes' aoe powers are instant damage, wizards' AoEs, except for fireball are DoT; and by the time they do any damage at all, other classes have already killed the enemies. Right now, icy terrain and conduit are like 25 magnitude damage per sec or a bit more or less, and steal time is like 40 per sec, I would suggest these powers to strike around 50 magnitude damage per sec and duration reduced, maybe 6 secs? We also need an improve for lightning bolt and specially avalanche, which is not that good.
  • agilestoagilesto Member Posts: 516 Arc User

    Is this a Joke?

    Where are the adjustments for DPS Barbarian Class? You've been getting feedback since M16 BETA on DPS Barbarian, on the forum, hundreds of posts addressing how bad are the feats or the encounters or atwills and how they need a rework, on your stream, thousands of times people've been asking for any kinds of buffs, everywhere everyone is telling you the class sucks since M16! Even in game it's a meme at this point, nobody wants a DPS Barbarian in group when you can have wizard/rogue/ranger which are way overpowered in comparison and can deal so much more damage in less time frame,


    Is this a sick joke, seriously? Are you or are you not listening to the feedback? People have invested hours and money on this class on prior mods, and now they feel bad to even play the game because the class is trash and feels bad to play. People have been waiting and expecting some kind of buffs during M16-17 and you didn't even mention the class! People have hoped and been waiting to see changes for M18, and again you're not even mentioning the class at all in your class balance adjusments for m18?!

    - Our all-time best single target atwill, sure strike, is utter trash since m16 for who knows what reason, the aoe atwill is better in any situation,
    - Our all-time best single target encounter, IBS, is trash since m16 for who knows what reason, you decided to make other encounters better
    - Rage is a complete joke, you should be getting your rage easily while using atwills, then enter Rage and release damage with encounter powers, but you made it so people are forced to use encounters to gain Rage and then they can only spam atwills,
    - Rotation feels bad and clunky to play,
    - Feats are more jokes, they are so limited and make little to no difference in gameplay style,
    - 1 Offensive slot is a joke

    For real, tell people now if you don't intend or can't fix the class at all.

    @noworries#8859

    Yes, yes, yes and yes. All of that.

    Since the preview of M16 you've been getting feedback about Barb. Asterdhal (iirc it was him) even admit that the Barb class was more difficult to change than the others because the one in charge left, and as a result we have a pathetic shadow of what the class was one day prior M16.

    The dmg comparison noworries showed for TOMM dps is an absolute joke because their data sample is not correct (because only a few selected Barbs are taken as dps in runs so you only get the top of the basket), and sadly it seems they used that comparison to prioritize their changes.

    So nothing on M18 for us, and as I saw from the M19 posts of noworries, M19 will be about Dreadnaught/Arbiter, so probably nothing for us as well. It's been 2/3 of a year as a useless dps class, it'll be another 4 months like that until M19, and probably another 4 months until M20.

    Like other said since M16, the class is working at the exact opposite of what you wanted: we use encounters to build rage because atwills are trash for that, and we use atwills in rage mode, so absolutely useless in single target.

    This class is a joke and you're the humorists. Sadly no one laugh.
  • nemesrichnemesrich Member Posts: 85 Arc User

    Many of you gave feedback that you'd like some balance adjustments now, rather than waiting for bigger/more accurate ones in a later module so that balance could be closer in the short term.

    It seems you missed one forum. I suggest you to read it too.

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/categories/the-militia-barracks

  • demarw2#2749 demarw2 Member Posts: 70 Arc User
    edited December 2019
    Hey @noworries#8859

    I am very happy to read this. Thank you very much. It is awesome that you listen to the community and our wishes. Fantastic!

    For feedback I only can talk about Dreadnought. I really like these changes! I am so happy to read this. I would suggest one additional change. But I am still happy, even if it won't be considered.
    - Weight of Vengeance: Increase magnitude from +300 Anvil of Doom to +400 (and descrease the consumed vengeance from 25 to 15). So Anvil is still our hardest hitting encounter.

    It would be nice, if we will get these great balancing changes on console at the same time like on PC or one week later. Thank you very much for these changes!!!
    Post edited by demarw2#2749 on
  • jas#1732 jas Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    Come the "bleep" on! Where is the love for my Great Weapon Fighter? (Barbarian). Thousands of dollars dumped into the game and character I loved. Now it's worthless! Great job. At least remove scaling. All that time and money to be the best you can. Rewarded with not even a mention? 😞
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 666 Arc User
    edited December 2019
    While I completely understand that the Barbies are concerned, maybe we could try to hope that this was done quickly (and only because we asked) and maybe Barbie didn't just make it yet?

    I haven't had time to look at it ingame, but: Thank you for considering to work on the other paragons of double dps classes, too. Like Hunter, for example, even tho Combat Warden is working - I missed it a lot, and will definitly go to give Hunter Trapper another shot.
    - bye bye -
  • asterix000asterix000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14 Arc User
    Hi everybody,
    my considerations about the classes I play:

    Arcanist:
    looking at ACT logs, the feat that makes the difference in tomm is striking advantage, mostly because in that content dpsses have almost 100% CA uptime. My opinion is that that feat should be addressed, instead of arcane and chill stacks and storm spell, which will cause a flat debuff in all the contents.

    Thaumaturge:
    Bug fixes. That's all is needed.

    Barbarian:
    I don't agree with the general opinion that the class must be rebuilt from scratch. It should be tuned up a little bit in single target. My proposal is to boost up sure strike, which at the moment is less powerfull than relentless slash, even in ST and even not counting the 5% buff.

    Op Tank:
    No changes needed imao.

    Op Healer:
    I know this won't make me gain the love of the class players, but I think barriers are too powerfull compared to classic HP healing and/or the divinity cost is too low. The result is that OP healer overwhelms other healer classes in high end contents.

  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Member Posts: 165 Arc User
    Hellbringer:
    Eldritch Blast: Increase magnitude from 30 to 35
    Dark Spiral Charge: Increase magnitude from 80 - 240 to 95 - 280
    Hellish Rebuke: Increase magnitude from 40/10 DoT and 20 on counter to 45/10 DoT and 25 on counter
    Hand of Blight: Increase magnitude from 35 melee/45 ranged to 40 melee/50 ranged
    Arms of Hadar: Increase magnitude from 55 to 65
    Vampiric Embrace: Increase magnitude from 250 to 275
    Blades of Vanquished Armies: Increase magnitude from 20 to 25
    Hadar's Grasp: Increase magnitude from 200 to 230
    Fiery Bolt: Increase magnitude from 175 to 200
    Dreadtheft: Increase magnitude from 340 to 395
    Hellfire Ring: Increase magnitude from 120/200 DoT to 135/220 DoT
    Gates of Hell: Increase magnitude from 750 to 865
    Curse: Increase magnitude from 10 to 12
    Parting Blasphemy: Increase magnitude from 75 to 85

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    While these are all a step in the right direction, like a lot of people have already said, and not just for warlock, these type of band aid magnitude fixes should of been happening ever month or so since mod 16.

    The fact that it seems you have been able to put these tweaks through so quickly, and off the cuff highlight to the players just how easy and quick these changes are to make, and there really is no excuse that we have had to wait over 9months for them.

    Also,
    Eldritch blast, the third hit in the combo still doesn't do double damage, which it clearly states it should in the tooltip.

    Lesser curse does less than 1% total damage, so a change from 10magnitude to 12magnitude may as well be 0. Make it at least 32magnitude ( 8 per tick) or you may as well not bother.

    The increase to Hand of blight is nice for the melee part, but disproportionate for the ranged part, 40 melee - (0.4sec) ,60 ranged (0.65sec) is a more accurate magnitude in relation to the cast time. The ranged part still only generates 1 spark per combo instead of 4.

    Fiery Bolt - the magnitude change while its nice, doesn't really change the problem with the spell. the 50% AoE reduction is the issue, no other AoE suffers such a harsh penalty. It would of been better to leave it at 175magnitude and remove the AoE penalty.... its supposed to be an AoE attack...….. :s
  • akta#9913 akta Member Posts: 93 Arc User
    Please clarify perfect balance, are you removing it's current effect and replacing it? Is this damage buff only present on the one encounter use that occurs when 4 stacks of radiant/fire are achieved?
  • gonzakotwigonzakotwi Member Posts: 267 Arc User
    It is much appreciated that you reacted well to our feedback. I can see hellbringer got some love and from a first look i would guess about 7-8% more in dps, Will have to do some testing tho, as other pointed out warlock curse feat didn't change it was already 12%, so could be raised to 13-14% to be inline with the rest. Dreadnought got much bigger love and also appreciated, im guessing it would be viable now to take a dps fighter.
    As far as the other clases, i don't play them so i can't give a feedback on there. But considering wizard i hope that the nerf dial didn't went too far and we get closed to the much desired class balance (plus as it is the target class on m18, bugs could be addressed too).
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    edited December 2019
    akta#9913 said:

    Please clarify perfect balance, are you removing it's current effect and replacing it? Is this damage buff only present on the one encounter use that occurs when 4 stacks of radiant/fire are achieved?

    So each stack of radiant or fire will give 1% damage to a total of 7% and then at 8th stack, the stacks will be consumed and we will be back to 0% dmg increase. This is really the only buff to arbiter, my estimate is that it is about 2-3% dmg buff and as for radiant pip dmg bugfix, arbiter should always use radiant to regen divinity. It won't even be a 0.1% damage increase sadly because even if you used radiant pips for dmg, you would have to use fire pips for re-genning divinity and that is the same dps loss. They'll see it eventually with statistics.
  • nl54#3191 nl54 Member Posts: 143 Arc User
    edited December 2019

    I would have loved to see the Barbarian getting some buff to single target damage? Increase Sure Strike magnitude to 75 at least. Our AOE At-Will Relentless Slash is better on single target than Sure Strike. This makes our Single Target DPS lacking even more. We would like to see more offensive companion slots and a rework on our Rage mechanic and shorter cooldowns on encounters, but we realize there is no time for this before the changes comes live. Please give us something? Sure Strike might be the quick answer and maybe it might be the permanent fix, who knows...

    I'd be happy if they just buffed Sure Strike by 20 magnitude or so and Brash Strike by 10 or 15. It's ridiculous that we have to use Relentless Slash (an aoe power) on single target.
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  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    this doesn't solve anything, low level band aid fixes, have fun with the game, maybe I come back in 2022
  • djnasty93djnasty93 Member Posts: 165 Arc User
    HUNTER AT-WILL need a buff too, hunter cant be able to do nice dmg only with encounters, even on mobs i use aimed shot to kill a 10% hp mob, i dont know, buff RAPID STRIKE, HUNTER TEAMWORK, (MELEE FOR BOSS/DEBUFF?) AIMED STRIKE, (MELEE MORE DMG DOT) AIMED SHOT (REDUCE CAST SPEED TO BE LIKE WARDEN AT WILL CAST SPEED 0,5 SEC)

    Pllllllllllllllllease =D hunter its cool, hunter hunt ^^
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