Experienced pvpers writing in chat to guide pugs how to rotate is ideal. But things happen so fast in pvp match. By the time u type out instructions, match will prolly be over. And it’s not as if pugs will definitely follow your instructions. And what if the vet pvpers disagree on what to do?
I’m sure if u ask pve players if they prefer to pre-form teams or pug the random queues, I’m sure they will prefer premades. Imagine if random q are really random like dom solo where u can’t form teams, I bet u will see plenty QQ in the forum.
U say being in a pm doesn’t mean u are a good pvper. I agree but imo pm v pm is the best place to learn tactics, strats and how to play as a team. There is little teamwork in dom solo. It’s every man for himself. U see ppl chasing for kills, fighting off nodes, not rotating properly. Dom solo does not encourage team play. Normal dom does. If u do not play as a team, nobody will want u in their team.
If you ask PVE players, we would rather have a place where we could play against each other, and let the hardcore PvP Gearzbeastz (patent pending) go play against themselves. What a pity, they are not interested in that...
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
Experienced pvpers writing in chat to guide pugs how to rotate is ideal. But things happen so fast in pvp match. By the time u type out instructions, match will prolly be over. And it’s not as if pugs will definitely follow your instructions. And what if the vet pvpers disagree on what to do?
I’m sure if u ask pve players if they prefer to pre-form teams or pug the random queues, I’m sure they will prefer premades. Imagine if random q are really random like dom solo where u can’t form teams, I bet u will see plenty QQ in the forum.
U say being in a pm doesn’t mean u are a good pvper. I agree but imo pm v pm is the best place to learn tactics, strats and how to play as a team. There is little teamwork in dom solo. It’s every man for himself. U see ppl chasing for kills, fighting off nodes, not rotating properly. Dom solo does not encourage team play. Normal dom does. If u do not play as a team, nobody will want u in their team.
If you ask PVE players, we would rather have a place where we could play against each other, and let the hardcore PvP Gearzbeastz (patent pending) go play against themselves. What a pity, they are not interested in that...
Right cause there are no hardcore Pve gearzbeastz .......LOLZ your logic is flawed .,., and in that group of pve players playing they will all have hamster low level gear right and none of them will be more "elite" then the other" in your mind ... ? and it will be fair ? cause they all have the same guild level mounts and guild boons right ? and they never participate in end game content ...
who/ what will determine what a pve player vs a pvp players is and who can join your little elite pve player "pvp club" ?? you are so full of hampster so you complain about pvp elitists having/ monpolizing thier own Q /having to play by themselves and you are going to force and lockout and segment pve players to play pvp to do they same ...
fortunately you do have a such place you can play against/ with each other /pve scrub "friends " all you like its called private Queue.. let me ask you this at what point does a pve player become too good for your little propsed pve/pvp group what is the criteria then that he should leave and join the "big boyz" /Gearzbeastz ?
elite pvp players should play against themselves via your proposal in a (imaginary )system that does not exist and is not defined .. but ":they" high geared pvp players are not interested( in playing only with themselves/sense of fair play /balance) .. who is they ??? did you take a survey / poll ? .
where do you get this claim that hardcore pvp players dont want to play against each other? ..they do all the time
"If you ask PVE players, we would rather have a place where we could play against each other, and let the hardcore PvP Gearzbeastz (patent pending) go play against themselves. What a pity, they are not interested in that..."
all you are asking for really is better matchmaking which i agree with..
I think u misunderstood me wintersmoke. I was saying pve would prefer to form premades for dungeon queues then pug them, just like pvpers prefer forming their teams before q-Ing for pvp. Playing pm v pm will promote better tactics, strategy and teamwork is what I am trying to say.
@wintersmoke The only difference between a pvp player and pve player is the focus. Pvper focus on pvp. Pver focus on pve. Highend Pve players can also become a pvp gear beast easily. Most pve gear are now viable in pvp. U only need a good pvp build. Pvp players are good in pvp only because they spend time and effort in their build (includes gear) learning the skill rotations, learning the timing and also the strengths and weaknesses of each class in pvp. And in teamplay, they learn tactics, strats and proper rotations and synergies with their teammates. Now ppl complain that we should split pvpers up into different teams because it’s unfair and other players will not have a fighting chance.. Well these pvpers are good because they have spent time perfecting their build, skills and teamwork. New ppl to pvp can also reach their level but playing only dom solo will not help them much. You need to form teams and practice teamwork. Now Pando argues otherwise. He said that one can also become a good team player just through doing dom solo. He is a good example that is not true. He is a vet player. Played since mod 1 but only pugging, never joined pvp guilds or premades. And his position is on page 8 of the leaderboard last season. Yet if u see who are on page 1 and 2, you will find mostly pvpers who were active in pm v pm. This shows pm pvpers has higher chance to dominate no matter if dom solo or dom. And it’s because they honed their skills in pm v pm. That is why I suggest two leaderboards, one for dom solo with less rewards and one for dom with more rewards to incentivise ppl into making premades and learning proper teamplay.
Experienced pvpers writing in chat to guide pugs how to rotate is ideal. But things happen so fast in pvp match. By the time u type out instructions, match will prolly be over. And it’s not as if pugs will definitely follow your instructions. And what if the vet pvpers disagree on what to do?
I’m sure if u ask pve players if they prefer to pre-form teams or pug the random queues, I’m sure they will prefer premades. Imagine if random q are really random like dom solo where u can’t form teams, I bet u will see plenty QQ in the forum.
U say being in a pm doesn’t mean u are a good pvper. I agree but imo pm v pm is the best place to learn tactics, strats and how to play as a team. There is little teamwork in dom solo. It’s every man for himself. U see ppl chasing for kills, fighting off nodes, not rotating properly. Dom solo does not encourage team play. Normal dom does. If u do not play as a team, nobody will want u in their team.
If you ask PVE players, we would rather have a place where we could play against each other, and let the hardcore PvP Gearzbeastz (patent pending) go play against themselves. What a pity, they are not interested in that...
Right cause there are no hardcore Pve gearzbeastz .......LOLZ your logic is flawed .,., and in that group of pve players playing they will all have hamster low level gear right and none of them will be more "elite" then the other" in your mind ... ? and it will be fair ? cause they all have the same guild level mounts and guild boons right ? and they never participate in end game content ...
who/ what will determine what a pve player vs a pvp players is and who can join your little elite pve player "pvp club" ?? you are so full of hampster so you complain about pvp elitists having/ monpolizing thier own Q /having to play by themselves and you are going to force and lockout and segment pve players to play pvp to do they same ...
fortunately you do have a such place you can play against/ with each other /pve scrub "friends " all you like its called private Queue.. let me ask you this at what point does a pve player become too good for your little propsed pve/pvp group what is the criteria then that he should leave and join the "big boyz" /Gearzbeastz ?
elite pvp players should play against themselves via your proposal in a (imaginary )system that does not exist and is not defined .. but ":they" high geared pvp players are not interested( in playing only with themselves/sense of fair play /balance) .. who is they ??? did you take a survey / poll ? .
where do you get this claim that hardcore pvp players dont want to play against each other? ..they do all the time
"If you ask PVE players, we would rather have a place where we could play against each other, and let the hardcore PvP Gearzbeastz (patent pending) go play against themselves. What a pity, they are not interested in that..."
all you are asking for really is better matchmaking which i agree with..
Of course there are PVE GearzBeatz (pat. pend.) Most of them are busy trying (and mostly failing) to grind TOMM. And the PvP flavored GearzBeastz would tear thru even THEM like Mini-Me's gramma wrapped in paper towels and armed with a flip-flop. I would still rather play with the high end PVE players than the high end PvP players, because they don't have a history of hunting me down, stabbing me in the back and sitting on my face...
Who qualifies as a PVE player? Simple. No PvP gear. Less than 100k (or even 50k) glory. Does not have a PvP build. Does not appear anywhere in the top half of the leaderboard. Although, I will admit, the devs would be hard put to filter players by build. I never asked for anyone to be locked out of PvP… I just said that we would prefer not to play with them. Which is kind of obvious, seeing as we dont...
PvP players ALSO have a place where they can play ONLY against each other, if that is what they really want to. The regular queue. How is that popping, by the way, now that the season has ended? Is it being used as much as it was before mod 17?
Again, I never said PvP players should only play against each other. I said we would prefer not to play with them. They, on the other hand have said, over and over again, that they only want to play with their friends and have no interest in stomping pugs. So, if that is true, what is the ratio of regular queue to solo queue matches?
I know that PvP players don't want to play against each other because I have been farmed, in up to 20 matches in a row, by the same pre-made. or partial PM, teams. I have gone into leveling PvP, before that died, and been pug-stomped by teams with PvP gear and rank 12 enchants. And as soon as the solo-queue dropped, PvP players were trying to sync-queue, and very soon after that, the regular queue died.
You are right about the matchmaking, tho. I wonder why the devs turned that off?
Hmm I disagree that pvpers only want to stomp pugs. Those are half-assed pvpers. Serious pvpers will prefer pm v pm. You can find quite a few pm v pm vids on yt. And those are just a small fraction of pm v pm matches back in the day. Pm v pm pushes u to improve. It also gives I the bragging rights when u defeat that dominant premade team. Who will feel proud of stomping pugs?
I think u misunderstood me wintersmoke. I was saying pve would prefer to form premades for dungeon queues then pug them, just like pvpers prefer forming their teams before q-Ing for pvp. Playing pm v pm will promote better tactics, strategy and teamwork is what I am trying to say.
I did misunderstand that. Thanks for clearing it up. And, I agree that Pre-made playing would help players improve. If I knew 9 other players that had any interest in PvP I might even try it. Unfortunately, I am just a Filthy Casual living the PUG-life!
@wintersmoke The only difference between a pvp player and pve player is the focus. Pvper focus on pvp. Pver focus on pve. Highend Pve players can also become a pvp gear beast easily. Most pve gear are now viable in pvp. U only need a good pvp build. Pvp players are good in pvp only because they spend time and effort in their build (includes gear) learning the skill rotations, learning the timing and also the strengths and weaknesses of each class in pvp. And in teamplay, they learn tactics, strats and proper rotations and synergies with their teammates.
Now ppl complain that we should split pvpers up into different teams because it’s unfair and other players will not have a fighting chance.. Well these pvpers are good because they have spent time perfecting their build, skills and teamwork. New ppl to pvp can also reach their level but playing only dom solo will not help them much. You need to form teams and practice teamwork.
Now Pando argues otherwise. He said that one can also become a good team player just through doing dom solo. He is a good example that is not true. He is a vet player. Played since mod 1 but only pugging, never joined pvp guilds or premades. And his position is on page 8 of the leaderboard last season. Yet if u see who are on page 1 and 2, you will find mostly pvpers who were active in pm v pm. This shows pm pvpers has higher chance to dominate no matter if dom solo or dom. And it’s because they honed their skills in pm v pm. That is why I suggest two leaderboards, one for dom solo with less rewards and one for dom with more rewards to incentivise ppl into making premades and learning proper teamplay.
See, here is the problem...
"Highend Pve players can also become a pvp gear beast easily."
and
"Pvp players are good in pvp only because they spend time and effort in their build (includes gear) learning the skill rotations, learning the timing and also the strengths and weaknesses of each class in pvp. And in teamplay, they learn tactics, strats and proper rotations and synergies with their teammates."
One of these things is not like the others, one of these things does not belong.
Pando is the perfect case in point. He (or she) actually likes PvP. Played thousands of matches. But, because they don't like the guild/pre-made model, has reached a limit to what they CAN do. On page 8, apparently. (How many pages deep is the leaderboard anyway.) So, in order to improve the PvP experience, all players should be forced to play some certain kinda way. A way that, looking at the usage of the PvP queues, most players have little to no interest in.
Edit: Oh, BTW... not all of us ARE high end PVE players.
The reason why dom solo q pops more than regular dom is because many competitive pvpers have quit the game. Many pvpers now are solo players. Many either started pvping after the era of pm v pm or they were the low tier pvpers who don’t do well in premades. They do not know about team work, only go for kills and spend most time fighting off node chasing kills. So they just q dom solo and they never learn how to play properly as dom solo is every man for himself. There are still a few competitive pvpers left. Jon Irenicus and Lancer for example. They try to coordinate their team and teach them how to rotate. This actually improves the pvp experience because ppl finally find themselves playing as a team in a team based pvp match. People seem to think that dom solo saved nw pvp. That is not true at all. Pvp went downhill when many competitive pvpers left the game due to various reasons. When the sharks are away, the little fishes come out to play. So the low tier pvp players started to q dom solo and proclaim themselves “King of Pvp”. They use all sorts of broken stuff but they actually cannot play. Since they only q dom solo, that pops more often than regular dom and ppl think dom solo saved pvp. In reality, real pvp died when pm v pm went away and it was never saved.
All those problems would not exist if gear was stripped down to an acceptable degree in PVP. If you want more competition where skill counts >> gear you have to deal with it, if you want to stick with the neverending disbalance in the game, where only very few invest that much to be BIS in a small niche of the game, keep it the way it is and deal with unbalanced matches 4ever. Playing PVP for one day should be enough to get to this point. By acceptable I speak of things like: Weapon/armor enchantments, enchantments, downscaled to r8 same as deleting or flatening SH boons, getting rid of AP and Stamina leeching BS etc.
I agree that skill should be more important than gear. But as it is now, it is easier to be bis in pvp (dom not iwp)than pve. It’s harder to gear up for Tomm than a good pvp build. Cos in pve, u need to rank up your runestones, get legendary companions which u don’t need in pvp. It is much easier to gear up for pvp now. If u have been playing for awhile. U can get the star rover set quite cheaply. Use your pve artifacts, enchantments, mounts and mount insignias and you are ready to fight other lower tier pvpers. Next is learning pvp skill combos , timing, how other classes fight , how to rotate. Once u have pvp for awhile, save up on glory to buy the arbiter set. If u really want a good dedicated pvp only loadout, it should cost around 20mil ad which u can grind in around six months. The barrier to pvp is getting lower so it’s just a matter of whether u wanna spend time and effort on pvp or not.
Now I’m personally not bis in pve or pvp. None of my enchantments are rank 15. I do have rank 14 wpn and armor enchantments. Those I use for pvp and pve. I use mostly rank 12, rank 13 enchantments. There are a lot of pve ppl who are more bis than me. These ppl can port over their enchantments, mount insignias, leg mounts, etc to a pvp build if they want to. With my not bis gear, I could get to page 1 of the leaderboard last pvp season so I believe these ppl with their bis gear could do better than me if they choose to focus on learning how to pvp properly.
The biggest barrier for me is to run two loadouts at same time for PVE and PVP. On one char I would like to join PVP but that's maybe not the one I favour for endcontent in PVE. The majority of player can't afford to run 2x20 maxed enchantments (Weapon/armorenchants includet). even running PVP on the same char you need to swap them for and back to arrange stats correctly. I simply stopped swapping stones from one char to another, putting radiants r15 into defense and other ones into offense, only to join PVP for a short periods of time, recognizing that the hole mod is wasted since devs forgot to fix one boon or simply broke it. Too time consuming honestly. Rewards in PVP are not offering enough to be from interest on top. Another big annoyance is the fact that armor/weaponenchants do good one mod and simply stay broken and worthless next mod, once you run that Elven Battle and after few mods all have to run a Shadowclad since it breaks the hole balance, same way that some overperforming artifacts can't be fixed for several mods on top. This kind of failure kills any effort to even think of a balanced and skill based competition right from the start and it is like this nearly since the beginning. Strip it , delete all those imbalancing boons, artifact, maybe even weapon/armorenchantments -> only solution Or stay broken with tons of player running abusive builds and equipment, where skill is a sidenote and the only difference between failing or winning is predetermined by a huge percent of your gearchoice (and class for sure)
Yup swapping things around can be troublesome and takes a lot of gold. What I did was use radiants in defense. Use prosperity insignias for more hp, they are cheap. Can use the hp mount for more hp or use the crit mount (crit mount is cheaper) Use gear with arpen. Can farm these easily doing ME or lomm. Use azures for crit. (These are quite affordable too). Raise crit severity using boons, wpn modifications. There’s your Budget pvp build. I may not be the best 1v1 but can hold my own. With knowledge of how to rotate properly, I can contribute to my team and help it win.
Somehow splitting PvP players into the "real" ones and PvE ones is never going to work. Hard to define the groups and also further reduces population for each queue. On top of that there would be those that would game the system to stomp the weaker players, as always.
The problem of leveling the playing field is a difficult one too. You can't just take away things players worked so hard for and you have to incentivize spending to gear up. However, I personally believe that the power gap is far too wide at this point and it's one of the things that would prevent PvP from growing no matter what. It is true that a bis PvP build is way cheaper than a bis PvE one, but most people still can't afford it. Note that because of the lackluster (sadly even after the season rewards have been introduced) rewards, it makes no sense for a new player to start gearing primarily for PvP. I can spend 2 hours in TOMM to get more than 14 days PvP season gets me.
One option is to disable things. We could get rid of guild boons, mount bonuses, insignias. After all, when PvP was at its best, none of this existed. The other option is to make stats matter less or reduce the amount of stats we get in PvP. This requires fine tuning and quick reactions, which sadly Cryptic has never been very good at.
Another problem related to power gap is more of a balance issue. Critical severity and lots of healing are also reasons why weaker players can't pull their weight. They get killed with 1 or 2 crit encounters and their damage doesn't stick because of healing. Now vorpal has been nerfed which could help this somewhat, but healing still remains way too strong. The biggest offenders there are OP sigil, healing insignia bonuses and potentially Providence. The first two should definitely be nerfed significantly and it might be good to even slightly increase healing depression afterwards.
PvP also suffers from the common problem (there might even be a name for this, I don't know) where you have 6 year veterans playing with newbies. This happens in any older game and there's little that can be done to avoid this without significantly hurting either side (unless your game is really awesome and retains large numbers of players in each category so proper matchmaking can nullify this).
Finally, as much as I dislike it, I believe that staying with solo queue only for the time being is the best option. I would like to try transforming solo to solo/duo so that I can play at least with one friend, but it's possible that would have a negative impact on the already not so great matchmaking quality. If more players came to PvP, premades would crop up eventually with competitiveness rising. Something as simple as a little 8 team single elimination tournament or later on leaderboard for premades would be awesome to promote playing with friends, unfortunately none of that is possible until there's enough players in PvP.
@lemollen 1st: why i post pages of arguments about changes that might work and might not work and why, and i get 1 short reply, the next one i'd say, of players attacking me (not my arguments). Typical "ad hominem. You can't beat the argument, so you attack the character. I'd like it if people could discuss the topic instead of attacking me personally (which shows a lack of arguments).
2nd: i love how people assume things. A couple of "BiS" players weeks ago assumed that my PvP build at the time was my true build, and that it meant i was not able to build my toon for PvP. Too bad it was a test on a PvE tank build and not a PvP build. But ok. Now you assume i am BiS for PvP. I played PvP a lot? Yes. I'm a veteran. Am i a dedicated PvPer? Have been since, i believe, mod 5 or 6, around the time the devs introduced piercing damage, making TRs oneshot GWFs with spammable SE, no matter what. Since TRs were everywhere and there was no way to do something, i stopped PvPing with my main and started doing random matches on my HR with a archer glass cannon build. Was fun. But dedicated to PvE on main since then, and developed one toon of each class. Right now i have main at 25k and alts at 20k, passing gear around. Btw, i came back to PvP a few weeks ago, on a PvE build, using a rank 11 shadowclad and wheel of elements. And random enchants. Ended up in page 2 or 3 before leaderboard reset. Didn't play much the next part of the season, started in page 2, then dropped. Does it matter to me? Nope, because match outcome does not depends on me alone. And i've seen players on page 1 begging to get kicked from a losing match to avoid losing positions. I never did that. This aside, i 1v1ed against the GWFs in page 1-3, all with sigil, and could always stand my ground, deal some good damage and even won half of the times against a barb that ended up in page 3 i believe. Considering they were using sigil, with better gear, and i was not even using an optimized build, i consider it a good start (have also yet to get all the PvP boons. Waiting for the devs to fix one of them). Same as in NCL, i simply don't like broken stuff. Could i spend milions and get rank 13 shadowclad and level fast an OP to get sigil? Yes. Don't wanna. Could i put more effort? Yes. I just returned and before spending time and resources in PvP, i want to see if it's worth it. Which means, i want to see if PvP gets decently balanced (classes and gear) and fun. Else, i'll be out again. I don't need to be BiS to know what can balance PvP. Expecially when it's clear even on "BiS" players that scaling up to 20k a pug player vs an untouched 24k+ BiS veteran with the broken toys, does not make any difference. Scaling down, instead, makes more sense. Solves all the issues? No, as razorleaf said above.
I was invited at a couple premades as a "guest" in the past. I've seen how the BiS play for years, and seen how PMvsPM works. I also used to watch tons of videos of PMvsPM matches cause they were fun and could learn stuff. Are the top PvP players stronger? Yes. More tuned builds, and yes, playing always against other BiS players obviously makes you more trained. Makes much difference compared to a solo/ non premade veteran player? Not THAT much. At my top, when i was a dedicated PvPer, i got in top 10 of GWFs. At the time all the old veterans were there, playing with T.Neg+T.Fey. I was using an instigator build with plaguefire and soulforged. Over 250 matches played. That was where i got. Won't repeat al lthe stuff. Wrote it again and again to defend myself/ my knowledge/ my right to discuss PvP matters. Tired of it, tired of people doubting me.
Now, my suggestions and arguments about PvP balance are above in the other posts. If you want to discuss them, i'll partecipate. If we've to discuss about other stuff, do it with someone else who is interested. If you want to test stuff/ try PvP with me, i'm easy to find in game when i'm up.
And I am not doubting you, just stating facts Pando. Sorry if I hurt your feelings 😊 Just stating facts. Let’s compare u and Lancer. Both are gwf, both vet players. Lancer was mainly pm player. You are not. Before reset, you got to page 2, he got to top 3. After reset, both played a few before stopping. He dropped to page 2, you dropped to page 8. Again, not doubting u at all 😊
You indeed doubt me, or there would be no point in shifting the discussion from the topic to leaderboard position. Plus again you assume things, and you are wrong in every assumption you made about how i perform in PvP and matches played ( i dropped exactly because i didn't stop playing. I just didn't play much). Expecially considering i can beat players who placed ahead of me in leaderboard, which should tell you again that leaderboard position with such low population and low number of matches played, is not a good way to tell what a player can do. And it also is pretty pointless considering it's off-topic. No feeling hurt, you're not some important person of my life. I just told you i'm tired, of dealing with random forum users who, instead of discussing topics, try to doubt my feedback. Also, if you want to meet someone in game, you search by name/handle, and pm the person. You do not write on the forums *facepalm* Others who are BiS and "premade players" already told you the same things i told you about not deleting solo queue and iLvL scaling. Razorleaf (gweddry) is a premade veteran. Read his post above if you don't like mine. He's high in leaderboard and very strong, so it should make you happy.
@pando83 Maybe u did not read what Razorleaf wrote properly. He wrote that as much as he dislike it, meaning he does not like dom solo. He says solo q is the way for the time being. Means given a choice, he would prefer normal dom. He even said at least give us the chance to q with a friend. Ok keep your dom solo. Next season, Make two leaderboards, one for dom solo, one for normal dom. Give more rewards for the dom leaderboard to incentivise ppl to make pm. Lastly of cos I know how to find ppl in game. But I’m not gonna log on just to w8 for u or find u. U are not that important to me 😊 Just thought if u are in game, we could have a match or two. Whatever really 😊
Back to topic pls! The thread is about to improve match making quality, ty. This is just a small part of the problems but maybe easier to solve than the proposals in "vanilla" direction. For example pvp games like Dota 2 /LoL based on the same gaming idea: all start at zero and player level up during the match and get items with gold....sounds nice but then you learn nothing can beat expierence!
Neverwinter doesnt work in that direction and a new player has much better chances to improve but he also need to be guided. If he jumpes in soon he reaches lvl 80 he gets a really harsh landing...pve has a decent learning curve...imagine that first thing a new player would face is ToMM...the game wouldnt exist anymore. Yes our pvp population is very small now but the way it is right now doesnt work to improve the exp. for all.
As I stated above I dont care if we would get 2 leaderboards but it may divide us even more or worse (from my exp. in the past) u would have the same player dominationg both leaderboards...so nothing improved....the better the rewards the less ppl care about whats right or wrong...
@pando83 Maybe u did not read what Razorleaf wrote properly. He wrote that as much as he dislike it, meaning he does not like dom solo. He says solo q is the way for the time being. Means given a choice, he would prefer normal dom. He even said at least give us the chance to q with a friend.
Ok keep your dom solo. Next season, Make two leaderboards, one for dom solo, one for normal dom. Give more rewards for the dom leaderboard to incentivise ppl to make pm.
Lastly of cos I know how to find ppl in game. But I’m not gonna log on just to w8 for u or find u. U are not that important to me 😊 Just thought if u are in game, we could have a match or two. Whatever really 😊
It seems you're the one who didn't read or understood.
Somehow splitting PvP players into the "real" ones and PvE ones is never going to work
First part where he says the opposite of what you say.
On top of that there would be those that would game the system to stomp the weaker players, as always.
Which is what i warned you about, when you were talking about your amazing PvP world made of premade players mixed with normal players. Old players know that back when we didn't have soloQ, 8 matches out of ten would end in a lopsided game because there were literally entire PvP guilds going in PvP to FARM it. Even with partial premades, which are enough to increase the number of lopsided matches.
One option is to disable things. We could get rid of guild boons, mount bonuses, insignias. After all, when PvP was at its best, none of this existed. The other option is to make stats matter less or reduce the amount of stats we get in PvP. This requires fine tuning and quick reactions, which sadly Cryptic has never been very good at.
Sounds like what i wrote, and the OPPOSITE of what you wrote (scaling up to 20k the low gear players, and leaving BiS ones untouched).
Finally, as much as I dislike it, I believe that staying with solo queue only for the time being is the best option. I would like to try transforming solo to solo/duo so that I can play at least with one friend, but it's possible that would have a negative impact on the already not so great matchmaking quality. If more players came to PvP, premades would crop up eventually with competitiveness rising. Something as simple as a little 8 team single elimination tournament or later on leaderboard for premades would be awesome to promote playing with friends, unfortunately none of that is possible until there's enough players in PvP.
He does not say that he wants soloQ to be erased to get back to only normal queue. He says that he would like to see it changed into a solo/duo AND to have separate tournaments for premades. Which is not what you wrote, and more similar to what me and others wrote (keep soloQ and give those who want to play in premades, their own tournament and stuff.
Now, talking about FACTS, it's a FACT that PvP died BEFORE soloQ, when the situation was exactly the same you want to bring back. SoloQ was introduced AFTER that setup killed PvP, to bring back players. That's a FACT. So all your nonsense talking about BiS, premades and forcing people to premade deleting soloQ, crushes against the FACT that the same setup in the past brought to pugstomping, death of PvP, premades farming PvP and making literally 8 matches out of 10 lopsided, because there were partial premades of BiS players gangin' up together on one side. These are FACTS. Normal queue is there. Why do you think it became deserted? Let me explain it to you. Premade PvP dedicated players and guilds, are like 1% of total population, at best. 99% of NW population is composed by casual/ PvE players, people who play PvP as a secondary game mode, because that's how the game is designed. The devs created a PvE game with the chance to PvP. Not a competitive PvP game for competitive PvP players. In fact, the competitive PvP community back in the day was a very small percentage. Proof of that is the FACT that when soloQ was introduced, normal queue died. Because there were few players interested in premades and competitive PvP. If there were so many players interested in PvP with friends or in premades, normal queue would drop but would not die, and the community would just split. Instead, it died. This is a FACT. Now, you want to model PvP to fit the needs of that 1%, to try and force the remaining 99% to become dedicated PvPers. Are you serious? Pretty much everyone, even premade players, talk about introducing a parallel system to give premade and dedicated players a place where they can specifically play competitive PvP. You are the only one who talks about forcing everyone to go premade and play competitive, by deleting soloQ.
Your proposal show that you don't know much about how PvP changed in this game in these years. And proof is 2 simple things you proposed:
- deleting soloQ to push people to form premades in PvP. Forgetting that soloQ was not the cause, but an attempt to cure the death of PvP, when normal queue failed. You're either new to the game or you don't remember how PvP worked in these 6 years in NWO. Every veteran talked to you about pugstomping that plagued normal queue with no restrictions.
- you proposed to scale up to 20k new players and leave BiS untouched, to balance stuff. As if iLvL was ever a good indicator of the strenght of a PvPer. Any PvP with a bit of experience, not even a veteran, can tell you that scaling up to 20k a newbie and putting it against a veteran, would still result in the pug getting one-rotated. You love Lancer so much. Give a newbie gear to get to 20k, then put him against Lancer. See how it goes. For someone who knows how PvP works, and how PvP builds worked so far, scaling DOWN and taing away some stuff, is the way to go. As gweddry said too. The main issue is if the devs are willing to do that. Even just scaling down a OP sigil to epic is enough to balance it more. What was more unbalanced in PvP were EXTREME builds. With extreme stats, bonuses, AP gain, stamina gain exc...
We've seen it all in the past. Elitism, premades exc... Conclusion: PvP died. The few players that came to PvP came in soloQ only. Because premade competitive players are not the majority of NWO community. Period. This is a fact. You must rework PvP to make it viable for everyone. Not to force players to go competitive. They will rather quit. Which is exactly what happened in the past, when we got exactly what you propose. Players were not pushed to form premades and dedicate to PvP by premades stomping them. They decided to just quit, and PvP died. and this is a fact. Like it or not.
There's much to do to balance. But you can still have fun. More than in the past. Players just need to focus less on leaderboard and on winning or losing a match. It's ok to be competitive, but not to the point where players quit/ask to get kicked/ kick others from a game, exc...
If your opponent suffers four times lesser damage than you, escapes from your rotation by WOW STEALTH, and stun-controls you to prevent your hit - and your attack being aborted - but he has already deflected that hit to make stealth/stun effect triggered (wtf it works this way?!), it's no fun to have.
Comments
and in that group of pve players playing they will all have hamster low level gear right and none of them will be more "elite" then the other" in your mind ... ? and it will be fair ? cause they all have the same guild level mounts and guild boons right ?
and they never participate in end game content ...
who/ what will determine what a pve player vs a pvp players is and who can join your little elite pve player "pvp club" ??
you are so full of hampster so you complain about pvp elitists having/ monpolizing thier own Q /having to play by themselves and you are going to force and lockout and segment pve players to play pvp to do they same ...
fortunately you do have a such place you can play against/ with each other /pve scrub "friends " all you like its called private Queue..
let me ask you this at what point does a pve player become too good for your little propsed pve/pvp group
what is the criteria then that he should leave and join the "big boyz" /Gearzbeastz ?
elite pvp players should play against themselves via your proposal in a (imaginary )system that does not exist and is not defined ..
but ":they" high geared pvp players are not interested( in playing only with themselves/sense of fair play /balance) .. who is they ??? did you take a survey / poll ? .
where do you get this claim that hardcore pvp players dont want to play against each other? ..they do all the time
"If you ask PVE players, we would rather have a place where we could play against each other, and let the hardcore PvP Gearzbeastz (patent pending) go play against themselves. What a pity, they are not interested in that..."
all you are asking for really is better matchmaking which i agree with..
Now ppl complain that we should split pvpers up into different teams because it’s unfair and other players will not have a fighting chance.. Well these pvpers are good because they have spent time perfecting their build, skills and teamwork. New ppl to pvp can also reach their level but playing only dom solo will not help them much. You need to form teams and practice teamwork.
Now Pando argues otherwise. He said that one can also become a good team player just through doing dom solo. He is a good example that is not true. He is a vet player. Played since mod 1 but only pugging, never joined pvp guilds or premades. And his position is on page 8 of the leaderboard last season. Yet if u see who are on page 1 and 2, you will find mostly pvpers who were active in pm v pm. This shows pm pvpers has higher chance to dominate no matter if dom solo or dom. And it’s because they honed their skills in pm v pm. That is why I suggest two leaderboards, one for dom solo with less rewards and one for dom with more rewards to incentivise ppl into making premades and learning proper teamplay.
Who qualifies as a PVE player? Simple. No PvP gear. Less than 100k (or even 50k) glory. Does not have a PvP build. Does not appear anywhere in the top half of the leaderboard. Although, I will admit, the devs would be hard put to filter players by build. I never asked for anyone to be locked out of PvP… I just said that we would prefer not to play with them. Which is kind of obvious, seeing as we dont...
PvP players ALSO have a place where they can play ONLY against each other, if that is what they really want to. The regular queue. How is that popping, by the way, now that the season has ended? Is it being used as much as it was before mod 17?
Again, I never said PvP players should only play against each other. I said we would prefer not to play with them. They, on the other hand have said, over and over again, that they only want to play with their friends and have no interest in stomping pugs. So, if that is true, what is the ratio of regular queue to solo queue matches?
I know that PvP players don't want to play against each other because I have been farmed, in up to 20 matches in a row, by the same pre-made. or partial PM, teams. I have gone into leveling PvP, before that died, and been pug-stomped by teams with PvP gear and rank 12 enchants. And as soon as the solo-queue dropped, PvP players were trying to sync-queue, and very soon after that, the regular queue died.
You are right about the matchmaking, tho. I wonder why the devs turned that off?
"Highend Pve players can also become a pvp gear beast easily."
and
"Pvp players are good in pvp only because they spend time and effort in their build (includes gear) learning the skill rotations, learning the timing and also the strengths and weaknesses of each class in pvp. And in teamplay, they learn tactics, strats and proper rotations and synergies with their teammates."
One of these things is not like the others, one of these things does not belong.
Pando is the perfect case in point. He (or she) actually likes PvP. Played thousands of matches. But, because they don't like the guild/pre-made model, has reached a limit to what they CAN do. On page 8, apparently. (How many pages deep is the leaderboard anyway.) So, in order to improve the PvP experience, all players should be forced to play some certain kinda way. A way that, looking at the usage of the PvP queues, most players have little to no interest in.
Edit: Oh, BTW... not all of us ARE high end PVE players.
People seem to think that dom solo saved nw pvp. That is not true at all. Pvp went downhill when many competitive pvpers left the game due to various reasons. When the sharks are away, the little fishes come out to play. So the low tier pvp players started to q dom solo and proclaim themselves “King of Pvp”. They use all sorts of broken stuff but they actually cannot play. Since they only q dom solo, that pops more often than regular dom and ppl think dom solo saved pvp. In reality, real pvp died when pm v pm went away and it was never saved.
Playing PVP for one day should be enough to get to this point.
By acceptable I speak of things like:
Weapon/armor enchantments, enchantments, downscaled to r8 same as deleting or flatening SH boons, getting rid of AP and Stamina leeching BS etc.
On one char I would like to join PVP but that's maybe not the one I favour for endcontent in PVE.
The majority of player can't afford to run 2x20 maxed enchantments (Weapon/armorenchants includet). even running PVP on the same char you need to swap them for and back to arrange stats correctly.
I simply stopped swapping stones from one char to another, putting radiants r15 into defense and other ones into offense, only to join PVP for a short periods of time, recognizing that the hole mod is wasted since devs forgot to fix one boon or simply broke it.
Too time consuming honestly. Rewards in PVP are not offering enough to be from interest on top.
Another big annoyance is the fact that armor/weaponenchants do good one mod and simply stay broken and worthless next mod, once you run that Elven Battle and after few mods all have to run a Shadowclad since it breaks the hole balance, same way that some overperforming artifacts can't be fixed for several mods on top.
This kind of failure kills any effort to even think of a balanced and skill based competition right from the start and it is like this nearly since the beginning.
Strip it , delete all those imbalancing boons, artifact, maybe even weapon/armorenchantments -> only solution
Or stay broken with tons of player running abusive builds and equipment, where skill is a sidenote and the only difference between failing or winning is predetermined by a huge percent of your gearchoice (and class for sure)
The problem of leveling the playing field is a difficult one too. You can't just take away things players worked so hard for and you have to incentivize spending to gear up. However, I personally believe that the power gap is far too wide at this point and it's one of the things that would prevent PvP from growing no matter what. It is true that a bis PvP build is way cheaper than a bis PvE one, but most people still can't afford it. Note that because of the lackluster (sadly even after the season rewards have been introduced) rewards, it makes no sense for a new player to start gearing primarily for PvP. I can spend 2 hours in TOMM to get more than 14 days PvP season gets me.
One option is to disable things. We could get rid of guild boons, mount bonuses, insignias. After all, when PvP was at its best, none of this existed. The other option is to make stats matter less or reduce the amount of stats we get in PvP. This requires fine tuning and quick reactions, which sadly Cryptic has never been very good at.
Another problem related to power gap is more of a balance issue. Critical severity and lots of healing are also reasons why weaker players can't pull their weight. They get killed with 1 or 2 crit encounters and their damage doesn't stick because of healing. Now vorpal has been nerfed which could help this somewhat, but healing still remains way too strong. The biggest offenders there are OP sigil, healing insignia bonuses and potentially Providence. The first two should definitely be nerfed significantly and it might be good to even slightly increase healing depression afterwards.
PvP also suffers from the common problem (there might even be a name for this, I don't know) where you have 6 year veterans playing with newbies. This happens in any older game and there's little that can be done to avoid this without significantly hurting either side (unless your game is really awesome and retains large numbers of players in each category so proper matchmaking can nullify this).
Finally, as much as I dislike it, I believe that staying with solo queue only for the time being is the best option. I would like to try transforming solo to solo/duo so that I can play at least with one friend, but it's possible that would have a negative impact on the already not so great matchmaking quality. If more players came to PvP, premades would crop up eventually with competitiveness rising. Something as simple as a little 8 team single elimination tournament or later on leaderboard for premades would be awesome to promote playing with friends, unfortunately none of that is possible until there's enough players in PvP.
@lemollen
1st: why i post pages of arguments about changes that might work and might not work and why, and i get 1 short reply, the next one i'd say, of players attacking me (not my arguments). Typical "ad hominem. You can't beat the argument, so you attack the character. I'd like it if people could discuss the topic instead of attacking me personally (which shows a lack of arguments).
2nd: i love how people assume things. A couple of "BiS" players weeks ago assumed that my PvP build at the time was my true build, and that it meant i was not able to build my toon for PvP. Too bad it was a test on a PvE tank build and not a PvP build. But ok. Now you assume i am BiS for PvP. I played PvP a lot? Yes. I'm a veteran. Am i a dedicated PvPer? Have been since, i believe, mod 5 or 6, around the time the devs introduced piercing damage, making TRs oneshot GWFs with spammable SE, no matter what. Since TRs were everywhere and there was no way to do something, i stopped PvPing with my main and started doing random matches on my HR with a archer glass cannon build. Was fun. But dedicated to PvE on main since then, and developed one toon of each class. Right now i have main at 25k and alts at 20k, passing gear around. Btw, i came back to PvP a few weeks ago, on a PvE build, using a rank 11 shadowclad and wheel of elements. And random enchants. Ended up in page 2 or 3 before leaderboard reset. Didn't play much the next part of the season, started in page 2, then dropped. Does it matter to me? Nope, because match outcome does not depends on me alone. And i've seen players on page 1 begging to get kicked from a losing match to avoid losing positions. I never did that. This aside, i 1v1ed against the GWFs in page 1-3, all with sigil, and could always stand my ground, deal some good damage and even won half of the times against a barb that ended up in page 3 i believe. Considering they were using sigil, with better gear, and i was not even using an optimized build, i consider it a good start (have also yet to get all the PvP boons. Waiting for the devs to fix one of them). Same as in NCL, i simply don't like broken stuff. Could i spend milions and get rank 13 shadowclad and level fast an OP to get sigil? Yes. Don't wanna. Could i put more effort? Yes. I just returned and before spending time and resources in PvP, i want to see if it's worth it. Which means, i want to see if PvP gets decently balanced (classes and gear) and fun. Else, i'll be out again.
I don't need to be BiS to know what can balance PvP. Expecially when it's clear even on "BiS" players that scaling up to 20k a pug player vs an untouched 24k+ BiS veteran with the broken toys, does not make any difference. Scaling down, instead, makes more sense. Solves all the issues? No, as razorleaf said above.
@wintersmoke and @lemollen
I was invited at a couple premades as a "guest" in the past. I've seen how the BiS play for years, and seen how PMvsPM works. I also used to watch tons of videos of PMvsPM matches cause they were fun and could learn stuff. Are the top PvP players stronger? Yes. More tuned builds, and yes, playing always against other BiS players obviously makes you more trained. Makes much difference compared to a solo/ non premade veteran player? Not THAT much. At my top, when i was a dedicated PvPer, i got in top 10 of GWFs. At the time all the old veterans were there, playing with T.Neg+T.Fey. I was using an instigator build with plaguefire and soulforged. Over 250 matches played. That was where i got. Won't repeat al lthe stuff. Wrote it again and again to defend myself/ my knowledge/ my right to discuss PvP matters. Tired of it, tired of people doubting me.
Now, my suggestions and arguments about PvP balance are above in the other posts. If you want to discuss them, i'll partecipate. If we've to discuss about other stuff, do it with someone else who is interested.
If you want to test stuff/ try PvP with me, i'm easy to find in game when i'm up.
Also, if you want to meet someone in game, you search by name/handle, and pm the person. You do not write on the forums *facepalm*
Others who are BiS and "premade players" already told you the same things i told you about not deleting solo queue and iLvL scaling. Razorleaf (gweddry) is a premade veteran. Read his post above if you don't like mine. He's high in leaderboard and very strong, so it should make you happy.
Ok keep your dom solo. Next season, Make two leaderboards, one for dom solo, one for normal dom. Give more rewards for the dom leaderboard to incentivise ppl to make pm.
Lastly of cos I know how to find ppl in game. But I’m not gonna log on just to w8 for u or find u. U are not that important to me 😊 Just thought if u are in game, we could have a match or two. Whatever really 😊
For example pvp games like Dota 2 /LoL based on the same gaming idea: all start at zero and player level up during the match and get items with gold....sounds nice but then you learn nothing can beat expierence!
Neverwinter doesnt work in that direction and a new player has much better chances to improve but he also need to be guided.
If he jumpes in soon he reaches lvl 80 he gets a really harsh landing...pve has a decent learning curve...imagine that first thing a new player would face is ToMM...the game wouldnt exist anymore.
Yes our pvp population is very small now but the way it is right now doesnt work to improve the exp. for all.
As I stated above I dont care if we would get 2 leaderboards but it may divide us even more or worse (from my exp. in the past) u would have the same player dominationg both leaderboards...so nothing improved....the better the rewards the less ppl care about whats right or wrong...
But broken items like Shadowclad enchantment are total shet.
I completely don't want to take part in PvP anymore, as victory is decided by what team has more SC armors and pala sigils.
Your abilities, gameplay skill and knowledge of your class, decides nothing.
That sukks
First part where he says the opposite of what you say.
Which is what i warned you about, when you were talking about your amazing PvP world made of premade players mixed with normal players. Old players know that back when we didn't have soloQ, 8 matches out of ten would end in a lopsided game because there were literally entire PvP guilds going in PvP to FARM it. Even with partial premades, which are enough to increase the number of lopsided matches.
Sounds like what i wrote, and the OPPOSITE of what you wrote (scaling up to 20k the low gear players, and leaving BiS ones untouched).
He does not say that he wants soloQ to be erased to get back to only normal queue. He says that he would like to see it changed into a solo/duo AND to have separate tournaments for premades. Which is not what you wrote, and more similar to what me and others wrote (keep soloQ and give those who want to play in premades, their own tournament and stuff.
Now, talking about FACTS, it's a FACT that PvP died BEFORE soloQ, when the situation was exactly the same you want to bring back. SoloQ was introduced AFTER that setup killed PvP, to bring back players. That's a FACT. So all your nonsense talking about BiS, premades and forcing people to premade deleting soloQ, crushes against the FACT that the same setup in the past brought to pugstomping, death of PvP, premades farming PvP and making literally 8 matches out of 10 lopsided, because there were partial premades of BiS players gangin' up together on one side. These are FACTS.
Normal queue is there. Why do you think it became deserted? Let me explain it to you. Premade PvP dedicated players and guilds, are like 1% of total population, at best. 99% of NW population is composed by casual/ PvE players, people who play PvP as a secondary game mode, because that's how the game is designed. The devs created a PvE game with the chance to PvP. Not a competitive PvP game for competitive PvP players. In fact, the competitive PvP community back in the day was a very small percentage. Proof of that is the FACT that when soloQ was introduced, normal queue died. Because there were few players interested in premades and competitive PvP. If there were so many players interested in PvP with friends or in premades, normal queue would drop but would not die, and the community would just split. Instead, it died. This is a FACT. Now, you want to model PvP to fit the needs of that 1%, to try and force the remaining 99% to become dedicated PvPers. Are you serious?
Pretty much everyone, even premade players, talk about introducing a parallel system to give premade and dedicated players a place where they can specifically play competitive PvP. You are the only one who talks about forcing everyone to go premade and play competitive, by deleting soloQ.
Your proposal show that you don't know much about how PvP changed in this game in these years. And proof is 2 simple things you proposed:
- deleting soloQ to push people to form premades in PvP. Forgetting that soloQ was not the cause, but an attempt to cure the death of PvP, when normal queue failed. You're either new to the game or you don't remember how PvP worked in these 6 years in NWO. Every veteran talked to you about pugstomping that plagued normal queue with no restrictions.
- you proposed to scale up to 20k new players and leave BiS untouched, to balance stuff. As if iLvL was ever a good indicator of the strenght of a PvPer. Any PvP with a bit of experience, not even a veteran, can tell you that scaling up to 20k a newbie and putting it against a veteran, would still result in the pug getting one-rotated. You love Lancer so much. Give a newbie gear to get to 20k, then put him against Lancer. See how it goes.
For someone who knows how PvP works, and how PvP builds worked so far, scaling DOWN and taing away some stuff, is the way to go. As gweddry said too. The main issue is if the devs are willing to do that. Even just scaling down a OP sigil to epic is enough to balance it more. What was more unbalanced in PvP were EXTREME builds. With extreme stats, bonuses, AP gain, stamina gain exc...
We've seen it all in the past. Elitism, premades exc...
Conclusion: PvP died. The few players that came to PvP came in soloQ only. Because premade competitive players are not the majority of NWO community. Period. This is a fact. You must rework PvP to make it viable for everyone. Not to force players to go competitive. They will rather quit. Which is exactly what happened in the past, when we got exactly what you propose. Players were not pushed to form premades and dedicate to PvP by premades stomping them. They decided to just quit, and PvP died. and this is a fact. Like it or not.