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Talking about 'Balance' What about movement speed bonuses?

lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User
Yes i know by the title people will think i've gone mad, no i haven't. Movement speed is clearly one of the most important stats in the game but looking at it from a different point, its also one of the issues with balance.

As many if you know, and especially in aoe, the difference between the dps chart can be a result of 'who got to the enemies first'. There's a misconception that class balancing is only about class mechanics, and the movement speed is usually underrated. Basically 2 players with the same class can do a dungeon and see a 30%+ difference in dps mainly due to one of the dpses having more movement speed than the other.

On the other hand, we also have classes that have class features that give them more movement speed compared to other classes, which is already an advantage they gain.

My suggestion would be to remove movement speed bonuses from the game, increase the base movement speed on all classes by 30-50%, while giving healers and tanks a slight advantage only when on their specific roles (this extra movement speed on healers and tanks shouldn't have effect in pvp). This will ensure healers and tanks get to the enemies first while the dpses should theorically get there at the same time.

There may be some question about the ranged classes having an advantage, well melee classes do have or should have powers that help them to close gaps.

This is not just a suggestion but also a discussion, perhaps while i dint start the thread in the 'feedback' section. Feel free to debate and lemme know what you think. Just my thought, dont bet your penny on it.
Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?

Comments

  • isaacorion#1994 isaacorion Member Posts: 106 Arc User
    Pre M16, I was really wanting Gladiator's Guile to be removed as a insignia combo and have that movespeed just be baked into the chars (and be replaced with something universally useful like old Artificers, Shepherds). But when M16 basically ruined half the insignia combo lineup, now there really isn't any super-useful combos to replace Gladiator's with.

    I wouldn't complain if the base movespeed got buffed up, but I'd prefer if there were some options to increase movespeed under certain conditions (like Fighter's Momentum feat)
    Warlock: Don't want to let you down but I am hell bound. - Imagine Dragons
    Cleric: You can be an angel of mercy or give in to hate. - Shinedown
    Wizard: The more the dark consumes me, I pretend I'm burning bright. - Shinedown
    Barbarian: Am I beautiful... as I tear you to pieces? - In This Moment
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 708 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    I'd agree that the major reason for double/triple GG is that there really is no incentive for something else. What heals, doesn't really heal, what supports doesn't really support...
    If I had more than 1 mount with GG I would use it, but I won't buy another for it either.
    Just let them rush ahead and die.
    I did so too, once or twice when the tank was sooooo slow or afk... If I die, it's on me. Learning process!

    Thats more a symptome of 5 ppl doing party content solo together than of movement speed.
    It would be weird if I had OPs running ahead of me all of a sudden. (Not in content, but imagine strolling through Shar and suddenly a Forrest-OP runs past)
    Post edited by jules#6770 on
    - bye bye -
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 708 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    What I forgot to consider was the "first at the enemy/boss" situation, because a lot my extra dmg I have been doing with my HR for quite a while is because of encounters that put me ahead of other dpsers, because I already rushed up to the target before they even started running towards it.
    While I'm really bad TR so I don't know what encounters good TR are using, there should also be something like that. (?)
    Pre M16 I could do well with Trapper when I was starting in with ranged stance on the way to the boss before the others were even in combat - then moved in for melee.
    That is of course a thing, but thats a set up issue of dps imo. If they couldn't rush ahead or start combat before the tank even got in sight of the mob, it prob wouldn't be that bad of a difference.
    The way it is I already get some punches in before my fellow party is close, unless I wait for them/the tank. But not because of movement speed - because of my encounters.
    - bye bye -
  • gonzakotwigonzakotwi Member Posts: 267 Arc User
    For me its not that important, on my warlock ofc i do arrive at the fights earlier. But I also have a gf and a pally and never had any problems being ahead of anybody. On the gf i get speeds up to 70% or so and on the pally i got 2 rushes. Its just a matter of when and where to move
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,079 Arc User
    oh increase all the base movement speed of character 30-50% .. then what? increase the movement speeds of mounts to compensate lolz omg lolz .. so you want people to run around faster then a base mounts movment speed .what would the point of a mount be then ?
  • lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    kalina311 said:

    oh increase all the base movement speed of character 30-50% .. then what? increase the movement speeds of mounts to compensate lolz omg lolz .. so you want people to run around faster then a base mounts movment speed .what would the point of a mount be then ?

    Not sure what is so funny about a 30-50% increase, sounds like you think thats alot, well lemme break it down abit.
    3 stacks of GG already give you 26% movement increase, you have 12.5% from boons, 20% from chultan tiger, my cw has 6% from dex, thats 64.5% from a cw alone and im pretty sure im missing more sources. On a Rogue, add 10-15% to that as they have class features that gives them 10% free and 15% when in stealth, also more dex on a tr than cw which is atleast 1% more. So far we are at 75.5%. Rangers gain 5% more movement as long as they are in melee stance, but since they dont have the 10% rogues have, thats 70.5% for them. Paladins have 10% base movement speed so they can move as fast as rogues.

    Im not gonna cover every single one of them but as you can see, on a cw without any base movement speed bonuses nor feats/class features and without considering any external effects or potions, its already 64.5% which is 14.5% higher than what you are apparently considering 'too' high.

    30-50% was more of an example than an actual value, they'd prolly need to go into the 60s or 70s if they consider.
    Oh and we not even considering the fact that barbies and warlocks can just sprint ahead here.
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
  • flecia#3114 flecia Member Posts: 53 Arc User
    lardeson said:

    Yes i know by the title people will think i've gone mad, no i haven't. Movement speed is clearly one of the most important stats in the game but looking at it from a different point, its also one of the issues with balance.

    As many if you know, and especially in aoe, the difference between the dps chart can be a result of 'who got to the enemies first'. There's a misconception that class balancing is only about class mechanics, and the movement speed is usually underrated. Basically 2 players with the same class can do a dungeon and see a 30%+ difference in dps mainly due to one of the dpses having more movement speed than the other.

    On the other hand, we also have classes that have class features that give them more movement speed compared to other classes, which is already an advantage they gain.

    My suggestion would be to remove movement speed bonuses from the game, increase the base movement speed on all classes by 30-50%, while giving healers and tanks a slight advantage only when on their specific roles (this extra movement speed on healers and tanks shouldn't have effect in pvp). This will ensure healers and tanks get to the enemies first while the dpses should theorically get there at the same time.

    There may be some question about the ranged classes having an advantage, well melee classes do have or should have powers that help them to close gaps.

    This is not just a suggestion but also a discussion, perhaps while i dint start the thread in the 'feedback' section. Feel free to debate and lemme know what you think. Just my thought, dont bet your penny on it.

    I agree with what your saying that a lot of "balancing issue" comes from who gets to mobs first. But in the same breath a lot of "balancing" comes from CW's and other having massive AOE's that do damage across multiple targets. If you want to have more movement speed are you prepared to massively reduce AOE/DOT damage on CWs on Assassin Rogues (Dot Feat/Smoke Bomb) an so on? (Yes as a WK rogue i could use Smoke Bomb but its not how to play WK as i have a better choice in Blitz that better fits my play style and i dont stack everything melee smoke bomb being a melee skill) It so true that to much is placed on total damage at the end of a dungeon while nobody actually looks at number of targets hit. And both movement speed and aoe/range/dots are a function of this. The reality though is classes are what they are and those that put more/most into single targets should have more movement speed to at least attempt to balance out those that have massive range/aoe/dots.
  • lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited September 2019

    lardeson said:

    Yes i know by the title people will think i've gone mad, no i haven't. Movement speed is clearly one of the most important stats in the game but looking at it from a different point, its also one of the issues with balance.

    As many if you know, and especially in aoe, the difference between the dps chart can be a result of 'who got to the enemies first'. There's a misconception that class balancing is only about class mechanics, and the movement speed is usually underrated. Basically 2 players with the same class can do a dungeon and see a 30%+ difference in dps mainly due to one of the dpses having more movement speed than the other.

    On the other hand, we also have classes that have class features that give them more movement speed compared to other classes, which is already an advantage they gain.

    My suggestion would be to remove movement speed bonuses from the game, increase the base movement speed on all classes by 30-50%, while giving healers and tanks a slight advantage only when on their specific roles (this extra movement speed on healers and tanks shouldn't have effect in pvp). This will ensure healers and tanks get to the enemies first while the dpses should theorically get there at the same time.

    There may be some question about the ranged classes having an advantage, well melee classes do have or should have powers that help them to close gaps.

    This is not just a suggestion but also a discussion, perhaps while i dint start the thread in the 'feedback' section. Feel free to debate and lemme know what you think. Just my thought, dont bet your penny on it.

    I agree with what your saying that a lot of "balancing issue" comes from who gets to mobs first. But in the same breath a lot of "balancing" comes from CW's and other having massive AOE's that do damage across multiple targets. If you want to have more movement speed are you prepared to massively reduce AOE/DOT damage on CWs on Assassin Rogues (Dot Feat/Smoke Bomb) an so on? (Yes as a WK rogue i could use Smoke Bomb but its not how to play WK as i have a better choice in Blitz that better fits my play style and i dont stack everything melee smoke bomb being a melee skill) It so true that to much is placed on total damage at the end of a dungeon while nobody actually looks at number of targets hit. And both movement speed and aoe/range/dots are a function of this. The reality though is classes are what they are and those that put more/most into single targets should have more movement speed to at least attempt to balance out those that have massive range/aoe/dots.
    Cw already got nerfed by 40-50% on thaumaturge, pushing everyone to play arcanist which only has melee-ranged aoe and the dots dont go over 20% overall. So any more nerfs for cw would kill the class. Rogues dont need any nerf either. Rangers need some checking cos it feels to easy to play one. But if you ask me, i dont think its the correct way to approach class balancing, nerfing other classes wont solve anything, the current issue with most classes is the 'additive and multiplicative' buffs mess the devs did. Some classes have additive buffs, while others have multiplicative buff and thats enough to make alot of difference.

    I have said it on a different thread before but what they need to do and are currently working on, is to put all classes on the same criteria, being it all multiplicative or additive, rework some class mechanics for some classes, check the cds/mag on classes.

    Nerfing classes is only gonna put you back in the neverending circle of 'balance'. And just for the record, i already have alot of movement speed, and like i said previously, i have no issue on my end. All classes have aoe powers and broken abilities, thats not the main problem with balance, the algorithm is where the issue is. Some classes have rediculously high cds and low magnitude with more dots that compensate for it, while others just have low cds and high magnitude with less dot.

    For example hrs dont have as much dots as cws and rogues but can put out as much damage or even more. The reason for this is because if you have a look at their feats, powers, features, you'll notice they have alot of burst damage which compensates for their lack of dots, and in certain situations where they can 1 shot normal enemies, its likely they will outdps you.
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
  • flecia#3114 flecia Member Posts: 53 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    I am not here to be a raw/raw/pom-pom guy supporting nerfing classes. I would sooner see bumps to classes where appropriate but determining what is appropriate is/has/will always be a long boring tedious discussion that I have no interest in getting into (feel free to read any number of class balancing threads).

    However the point I am making is this ...

    "All classes have aoe powers and broken abilities, thats not the main problem with balance,"

    I beg to differ. Not all Aoe/dots/range are created equally ... that act of HAVING an aoe/dot/range is meaningless if the aoe/dot/range on one class is significantly stronger than another class (perhaps even to a point where the weaker class would never even use the aoe).

    That aside the point was that looking at "number of targets hit" is not JUST who has more movement speed but also who has more aoe/dot/range. If you want to tinker with one you cant exclude the other as contributing factors.






    Post edited by flecia#3114 on
  • ecrana#2080 ecrana Member Posts: 1,654 Arc User
    I could care less if someone is outdpsing me because they get to mobs faster but I can see how that would bother people that have to compete with everyone.

    I don't necessarily agree with the argument when you also consider that some of the classes that can close the gap the fastest have the worst DPS anyway.

    I'll also toss in another nugget from a console perspective. On XB, it's blatantly obvious who's running on an XB1 versus XB1X. XB1X players load in substantially faster and are generally destroying mobs before everyone else has arrived.

    So to me, movement speed is like an extension of that and I could care less if others kill first or faster. I just want a successful run.
  • lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User

    I am not here to be a raw/raw/pom-pom guy supporting nerfing classes. I would sooner see bumps to classes where appropriate but determining what is appropriate is/has/will always be a long boring tedious discussion that I have no interest in getting into (feel free to read any number of class balancing threads).

    However the point I am making is this ...

    "All classes have aoe powers and broken abilities, thats not the main problem with balance,"

    I beg to differ. Not all Aoe/dots/range are created equally ... that act of HAVING an aoe/dot/range is meaningless if the aoe/dot/range on one class is significantly stronger than another class (perhaps even to a point where the weaker class would never even use the aoe).

    That aside the point was that looking at "number of targets hit" is not JUST who has more movement speed but also who has more aoe/dot/range. If you want to tinker with one you cant exclude the other as contributing factors.






    Well if you read the title, it 'what about movement speed'. which means this thread of only focused on that topic, like you've said urself, other balancing issues have been discussed on other threads. I know for sure that premod16 this wasn't a discussion about aoe or whatever as all classes had aoes that were either good at dots or at burst, and nope you are mixing everything up. Cw doesn't have 'uncapped target' aoes. our only uncapped aoes are dailies. If we have encounters like icy terrain, conduit, steal time that maybe hit a good amount of adds, the radius on these encounters is like 15ft which is very small and requires timing and precision, so its not like we just jump in and start killing everything and like i said before, you have to wait for the new damage formula to be applied and see where classes stand then take the next step towards balancing, but sorry you are in the wrong thread for this discussion
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
  • lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User

    I could care less if someone is outdpsing me because they get to mobs faster but I can see how that would bother people that have to compete with everyone.

    I don't necessarily agree with the argument when you also consider that some of the classes that can close the gap the fastest have the worst DPS anyway.

    I'll also toss in another nugget from a console perspective. On XB, it's blatantly obvious who's running on an XB1 versus XB1X. XB1X players load in substantially faster and are generally destroying mobs before everyone else has arrived.

    So to me, movement speed is like an extension of that and I could care less if others kill first or faster. I just want a successful run.

    Hr and Tr can close really fast and are currently the top 2. Sw is not as bad, but i do agree they need more burst damage, as for barbies, well, one of their main issue is that they are on the additive buffs formula. But now when everything is more or less balanced as it was in mod15 (some classes were still more broken than others but was definitely closer to each other than now), that close gap will be important.

    Ofc if you dont care then it shouldn't bother you whatever decision they decide to take, but IMO if we strictly talk about balancing, movement speed is one of the things to look into.

    Even after they implement the new formula and people who have more movement speed outdps certain classes, they will still complain about balance.

    No, im not saying that everyone having the same movement speed will fix everything but just 'one aspect' to look into.
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
  • flecia#3114 flecia Member Posts: 53 Arc User
    lardeson said:

    I am not here to be a raw/raw/pom-pom guy supporting nerfing classes. I would sooner see bumps to classes where appropriate but determining what is appropriate is/has/will always be a long boring tedious discussion that I have no interest in getting into (feel free to read any number of class balancing threads).

    However the point I am making is this ...

    "All classes have aoe powers and broken abilities, thats not the main problem with balance,"

    I beg to differ. Not all Aoe/dots/range are created equally ... that act of HAVING an aoe/dot/range is meaningless if the aoe/dot/range on one class is significantly stronger than another class (perhaps even to a point where the weaker class would never even use the aoe).

    That aside the point was that looking at "number of targets hit" is not JUST who has more movement speed but also who has more aoe/dot/range. If you want to tinker with one you cant exclude the other as contributing factors.






    Well if you read the title, it 'what about movement speed'. which means this thread of only focused on that topic, like you've said urself, other balancing issues have been discussed on other threads. I know for sure that premod16 this wasn't a discussion about aoe or whatever as all classes had aoes that were either good at dots or at burst, and nope you are mixing everything up. Cw doesn't have 'uncapped target' aoes. our only uncapped aoes are dailies. If we have encounters like icy terrain, conduit, steal time that maybe hit a good amount of adds, the radius on these encounters is like 15ft which is very small and requires timing and precision, so its not like we just jump in and start killing everything and like i said before, you have to wait for the new damage formula to be applied and see where classes stand then take the next step towards balancing, but sorry you are in the wrong thread for this discussion
    Lol. Nothing that simple you don't get to just post a thread titled 'what about movement speed' and then ignore everything else that directly affects your concerns about "who gets there first". Which is what this/your thread is really about even if your title says otherwise. While I will respect the fact that you want to concentrate on one particular aspect of the "who gets there first problem" you need to respect the fact that aoe/dots/range are just as much an issue with this problem. The world would be so much easier if I could just ignore everything about a problem except the stuff I want to focus on. I will simply leave it at that. Feel free to continue discussion on movement speed as there nothing more to say here.

  • lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited September 2019

    lardeson said:

    I am not here to be a raw/raw/pom-pom guy supporting nerfing classes. I would sooner see bumps to classes where appropriate but determining what is appropriate is/has/will always be a long boring tedious discussion that I have no interest in getting into (feel free to read any number of class balancing threads).

    However the point I am making is this ...

    "All classes have aoe powers and broken abilities, thats not the main problem with balance,"

    I beg to differ. Not all Aoe/dots/range are created equally ... that act of HAVING an aoe/dot/range is meaningless if the aoe/dot/range on one class is significantly stronger than another class (perhaps even to a point where the weaker class would never even use the aoe).

    That aside the point was that looking at "number of targets hit" is not JUST who has more movement speed but also who has more aoe/dot/range. If you want to tinker with one you cant exclude the other as contributing factors.






    Well if you read the title, it 'what about movement speed'. which means this thread of only focused on that topic, like you've said urself, other balancing issues have been discussed on other threads. I know for sure that premod16 this wasn't a discussion about aoe or whatever as all classes had aoes that were either good at dots or at burst, and nope you are mixing everything up. Cw doesn't have 'uncapped target' aoes. our only uncapped aoes are dailies. If we have encounters like icy terrain, conduit, steal time that maybe hit a good amount of adds, the radius on these encounters is like 15ft which is very small and requires timing and precision, so its not like we just jump in and start killing everything and like i said before, you have to wait for the new damage formula to be applied and see where classes stand then take the next step towards balancing, but sorry you are in the wrong thread for this discussion
    Lol. Nothing that simple you don't get to just post a thread titled 'what about movement speed' and then ignore everything else that directly affects your concerns about "who gets there first". Which is what this/your thread is really about even if your title says otherwise. While I will respect the fact that you want to concentrate on one particular aspect of the "who gets there first problem" you need to respect the fact that aoe/dots/range are just as much an issue with this problem. The world would be so much easier if I could just ignore everything about a problem except the stuff I want to focus on. I will simply leave it at that. Feel free to continue discussion on movement speed as there nothing more to say here.

    'who gets there first' is a result of movement speed? Like i said before the terms you are discussing already have their own threads and i dont see any need to discuss about class powers, aoes, dots etc. when im only talking about how movement speed shifts the damage in aoe, its 'one aspect'. If you want to talk about powers, they have their own threads.

    Also i've already explained to you that what you are talking about has nothing to do with movement speed, the issue with other classes is the damage formula. Instead of trying to get them to nerf other classes for ur biddings, how about you wait for them to finish their current project and see where that leaves your class? Or actually open a thread and suggest what you want them to improve on ur class. Its not that cw, hr and tr are overperforming, its just that other classes are underperforming. Not sure whats so tough to understand about that and again movement speed has nothing to do with the powers you use or dont use. I stated in my original post that even 2 cws, hrs or trs can have the same stats, setup and everything but the ultimate difference may just be 'who got to the mobs first'. how does that have anything to do with powers? Even in a balanced situation, more movement = likely more advantage, thats what my thread is about.
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
  • lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User

    lardeson said:

    I am not here to be a raw/raw/pom-pom guy supporting nerfing classes. I would sooner see bumps to classes where appropriate but determining what is appropriate is/has/will always be a long boring tedious discussion that I have no interest in getting into (feel free to read any number of class balancing threads).

    However the point I am making is this ...

    "All classes have aoe powers and broken abilities, thats not the main problem with balance,"

    I beg to differ. Not all Aoe/dots/range are created equally ... that act of HAVING an aoe/dot/range is meaningless if the aoe/dot/range on one class is significantly stronger than another class (perhaps even to a point where the weaker class would never even use the aoe).

    That aside the point was that looking at "number of targets hit" is not JUST who has more movement speed but also who has more aoe/dot/range. If you want to tinker with one you cant exclude the other as contributing factors.






    Well if you read the title, it 'what about movement speed'. which means this thread of only focused on that topic, like you've said urself, other balancing issues have been discussed on other threads. I know for sure that premod16 this wasn't a discussion about aoe or whatever as all classes had aoes that were either good at dots or at burst, and nope you are mixing everything up. Cw doesn't have 'uncapped target' aoes. our only uncapped aoes are dailies. If we have encounters like icy terrain, conduit, steal time that maybe hit a good amount of adds, the radius on these encounters is like 15ft which is very small and requires timing and precision, so its not like we just jump in and start killing everything and like i said before, you have to wait for the new damage formula to be applied and see where classes stand then take the next step towards balancing, but sorry you are in the wrong thread for this discussion
    Lol. Nothing that simple you don't get to just post a thread titled 'what about movement speed' and then ignore everything else that directly affects your concerns about "who gets there first". Which is what this/your thread is really about even if your title says otherwise. While I will respect the fact that you want to concentrate on one particular aspect of the "who gets there first problem" you need to respect the fact that aoe/dots/range are just as much an issue with this problem. The world would be so much easier if I could just ignore everything about a problem except the stuff I want to focus on. I will simply leave it at that. Feel free to continue discussion on movement speed as there nothing more to say here.

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1251808/class-balancing-when-is-it-actually-being-looked-at/p1
    That is more related to what you are talking about, in class forums and pc discussion you can find a bunch more about class balance. This isn't about any specific class balance, as i've pointed out countless times already, even among the same class the difference in movement speed can be an issue and even more considering that after balance some classes still naturally have more movement speed than others and will become another issue
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
  • karvarekarvare Member Posts: 247 Arc User
    Although the idea sounds interesting, with Cryptic's record of bugs we would find ourselves moving slower than now.
  • flecia#3114 flecia Member Posts: 53 Arc User
    lardeson said:

    lardeson said:

    I am not here to be a raw/raw/pom-pom guy supporting nerfing classes. I would sooner see bumps to classes where appropriate but determining what is appropriate is/has/will always be a long boring tedious discussion that I have no interest in getting into (feel free to read any number of class balancing threads).

    However the point I am making is this ...

    "All classes have aoe powers and broken abilities, thats not the main problem with balance,"

    I beg to differ. Not all Aoe/dots/range are created equally ... that act of HAVING an aoe/dot/range is meaningless if the aoe/dot/range on one class is significantly stronger than another class (perhaps even to a point where the weaker class would never even use the aoe).

    That aside the point was that looking at "number of targets hit" is not JUST who has more movement speed but also who has more aoe/dot/range. If you want to tinker with one you cant exclude the other as contributing factors.






    Well if you read the title, it 'what about movement speed'. which means this thread of only focused on that topic, like you've said urself, other balancing issues have been discussed on other threads. I know for sure that premod16 this wasn't a discussion about aoe or whatever as all classes had aoes that were either good at dots or at burst, and nope you are mixing everything up. Cw doesn't have 'uncapped target' aoes. our only uncapped aoes are dailies. If we have encounters like icy terrain, conduit, steal time that maybe hit a good amount of adds, the radius on these encounters is like 15ft which is very small and requires timing and precision, so its not like we just jump in and start killing everything and like i said before, you have to wait for the new damage formula to be applied and see where classes stand then take the next step towards balancing, but sorry you are in the wrong thread for this discussion
    Lol. Nothing that simple you don't get to just post a thread titled 'what about movement speed' and then ignore everything else that directly affects your concerns about "who gets there first". Which is what this/your thread is really about even if your title says otherwise. While I will respect the fact that you want to concentrate on one particular aspect of the "who gets there first problem" you need to respect the fact that aoe/dots/range are just as much an issue with this problem. The world would be so much easier if I could just ignore everything about a problem except the stuff I want to focus on. I will simply leave it at that. Feel free to continue discussion on movement speed as there nothing more to say here.

    'who gets there first' is a result of movement speed? Like i said before the terms you are discussing already have their own threads and i dont see any need to discuss about class powers, aoes, dots etc. when im only talking about how movement speed shifts the damage in aoe, its 'one aspect'. If you want to talk about powers, they have their own threads.

    Also i've already explained to you that what you are talking about has nothing to do with movement speed, the issue with other classes is the damage formula. Instead of trying to get them to nerf other classes for ur biddings, how about you wait for them to finish their current project and see where that leaves your class? Or actually open a thread and suggest what you want them to improve on ur class. Its not that cw, hr and tr are overperforming, its just that other classes are underperforming. Not sure whats so tough to understand about that and again movement speed has nothing to do with the powers you use or dont use. I stated in my original post that even 2 cws, hrs or trs can have the same stats, setup and everything but the ultimate difference may just be 'who got to the mobs first'. how does that have anything to do with powers? Even in a balanced situation, more movement = likely more advantage, thats what my thread is about.

    Wrong ... who gets there first is a result of many factors not simply movement speed.

    Very basic example to make a point.......
    A gwf and a cw enter a dungeon with many mobs.
    The gwf sprints ahead and single targets 2 mobs killing them before the cw arrives.
    The cw then with his range / aoe then arrives and basically obliterates the other 7 kills before the gwf has a chance at touching a third mob.

    Number of kills

    Cw 7
    GWF 2

    Who gets there first? THE CW ON 7 / 9 KILLS.

    Again feel free to continue focusing on what only matters to you rather then the problem as a whole.
    Take care.


  • lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User

    lardeson said:

    lardeson said:

    I am not here to be a raw/raw/pom-pom guy supporting nerfing classes. I would sooner see bumps to classes where appropriate but determining what is appropriate is/has/will always be a long boring tedious discussion that I have no interest in getting into (feel free to read any number of class balancing threads).

    However the point I am making is this ...

    "All classes have aoe powers and broken abilities, thats not the main problem with balance,"

    I beg to differ. Not all Aoe/dots/range are created equally ... that act of HAVING an aoe/dot/range is meaningless if the aoe/dot/range on one class is significantly stronger than another class (perhaps even to a point where the weaker class would never even use the aoe).

    That aside the point was that looking at "number of targets hit" is not JUST who has more movement speed but also who has more aoe/dot/range. If you want to tinker with one you cant exclude the other as contributing factors.






    Well if you read the title, it 'what about movement speed'. which means this thread of only focused on that topic, like you've said urself, other balancing issues have been discussed on other threads. I know for sure that premod16 this wasn't a discussion about aoe or whatever as all classes had aoes that were either good at dots or at burst, and nope you are mixing everything up. Cw doesn't have 'uncapped target' aoes. our only uncapped aoes are dailies. If we have encounters like icy terrain, conduit, steal time that maybe hit a good amount of adds, the radius on these encounters is like 15ft which is very small and requires timing and precision, so its not like we just jump in and start killing everything and like i said before, you have to wait for the new damage formula to be applied and see where classes stand then take the next step towards balancing, but sorry you are in the wrong thread for this discussion
    Lol. Nothing that simple you don't get to just post a thread titled 'what about movement speed' and then ignore everything else that directly affects your concerns about "who gets there first". Which is what this/your thread is really about even if your title says otherwise. While I will respect the fact that you want to concentrate on one particular aspect of the "who gets there first problem" you need to respect the fact that aoe/dots/range are just as much an issue with this problem. The world would be so much easier if I could just ignore everything about a problem except the stuff I want to focus on. I will simply leave it at that. Feel free to continue discussion on movement speed as there nothing more to say here.

    'who gets there first' is a result of movement speed? Like i said before the terms you are discussing already have their own threads and i dont see any need to discuss about class powers, aoes, dots etc. when im only talking about how movement speed shifts the damage in aoe, its 'one aspect'. If you want to talk about powers, they have their own threads.

    Also i've already explained to you that what you are talking about has nothing to do with movement speed, the issue with other classes is the damage formula. Instead of trying to get them to nerf other classes for ur biddings, how about you wait for them to finish their current project and see where that leaves your class? Or actually open a thread and suggest what you want them to improve on ur class. Its not that cw, hr and tr are overperforming, its just that other classes are underperforming. Not sure whats so tough to understand about that and again movement speed has nothing to do with the powers you use or dont use. I stated in my original post that even 2 cws, hrs or trs can have the same stats, setup and everything but the ultimate difference may just be 'who got to the mobs first'. how does that have anything to do with powers? Even in a balanced situation, more movement = likely more advantage, thats what my thread is about.

    Wrong ... who gets there first is a result of many factors not simply movement speed.

    Very basic example to make a point.......
    A gwf and a cw enter a dungeon with many mobs.
    The gwf sprints ahead and single targets 2 mobs killing them before the cw arrives.
    The cw then with his range / aoe then arrives and basically obliterates the other 7 kills before the gwf has a chance at touching a third mob.

    Number of kills

    Cw 7
    GWF 2

    Who gets there first? THE CW ON 7 / 9 KILLS.

    Again feel free to continue focusing on what only matters to you rather then the problem as a whole.
    Take care.


    i really dont know what you are trying to get at, as i said before gwfs and sws have sprint, barbarians have aoes too, not just single target, you are blaming other classes for how wrongly designed your class is. Doesn't make any sense. Again, if you have suggestions on how to improve ur class, go to the feedback section and give them your suggestions. What you are trying to do is get them to nerf everyone to the current level of the barbarian when the main issue with barbarians is the fact they are primarily considered to be tanks and are also on the additive damage formula, hense why they only have 1 companion offense slot. That has nothing to do with other classes, its ur class thats wrongly decided. Feel free to open a thread, ask them to take away the tank role from barbarian and bump them up to the level of hr, tr and cw, cos if you want to do as much dps, you must have in mind that unlike the other 4 classes, these 3 classes only have the dps role. So yes if you feel you cant wait for them to implement the new damage formula or have better ideas for ur class, open a thread, this is the wrong thread.

    Oh btw i've been playing since beta and the reason i chose a cw was the fact that they were or were supposed to be prolific at aoe, in fact, when you created a cw back then, the description on the character creation was that 'wizards are good in aoe and crowd control' So yes i really dont see how your class having a bad design have anything to do with everyone having the same movement speed. Ah also feel free to suggest them to remove sprint from barbarians and just give you a normal dodge skill. Cheers and have a good day.
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
  • lordtweety#3604 lordtweety Member Posts: 275 Arc User
    Movement speed is one factor of many. I can get to groups faster than some but unlike a wizard I can't then proceed to one shot a group of mobs. So having the higher movement/shadow slip ability doesn't mean much. Same goes for a Barbie apparently.

    In an ideal setting, the tank would be the fastest - or at least able to close the gap on the enemy faster than a wizard/rogue or whatever.

    Sequentially it would be:
    1st = Tank
    2nd = Melee DPS
    3rd = Ranged DPS
    4th = Healer

    The tank is first in order to pull aggro, melee hits the mobs at the same time as the ranged hits and the healer is there to keep the tank alive so he can keep aggro.

    In the real world, it goes ranged dps, melee dps, tank and then healer can fit anywhere in that sequence, or not at all.

    Movement speed is a relatively small part of the equation but if it movement speed was worked out so fights go in the sequence above, I wouldn't complain. I think that would make balancing classes easier as their is no longer the first in, first kill scenario happening.

    My 2 cents.
    Main: Angels Scar
    Guild: Ruathym Corsairs
  • lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited September 2019

    Movement speed is one factor of many. I can get to groups faster than some but unlike a wizard I can't then proceed to one shot a group of mobs. So having the higher movement/shadow slip ability doesn't mean much. Same goes for a Barbie apparently.

    In an ideal setting, the tank would be the fastest - or at least able to close the gap on the enemy faster than a wizard/rogue or whatever.

    Sequentially it would be:
    1st = Tank
    2nd = Melee DPS
    3rd = Ranged DPS
    4th = Healer

    The tank is first in order to pull aggro, melee hits the mobs at the same time as the ranged hits and the healer is there to keep the tank alive so he can keep aggro.

    In the real world, it goes ranged dps, melee dps, tank and then healer can fit anywhere in that sequence, or not at all.

    Movement speed is a relatively small part of the equation but if it movement speed was worked out so fights go in the sequence above, I wouldn't complain. I think that would make balancing classes easier as their is no longer the first in, first kill scenario happening.

    My 2 cents.

    all that sounds nice on paper, only if ranged was actually viable xd. With the nerf to thaum on cw, its all melee-range in arcanist, hunger rangers play at melee cos its just better, warlocks are currently underperforming, so yes it remains a factor. You actually have to play the rest of the classes to know where their dps comes from. Unfortunately neverwinter is not a game where rangers are actually 'rangers' it all depends on what performs better and currently all classes play at melee-range except maybe dps dcs which aint very popular.

    Imo, it doesn't make much sense for healers to be the last to reach there lol, what will they be healing, dead meat?

    Btw you need to try the other classes, if you think cw is the one that one shots normal enemies, then you are playing a different game sorry.
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
  • lordtweety#3604 lordtweety Member Posts: 275 Arc User
    lardeson said:


    all that sounds nice on paper, only if ranged was actually viable xd. With the nerf to thaum on cw, its all melee-range in arcanist, hunger rangers play at melee cos its just better, warlocks are currently underperforming, so yes it remains a factor. You actually have to play the rest of the classes to know where their dps comes from. Unfortunately neverwinter is not a game where rangers are actually 'rangers' it all depends on what performs better and currently all classes play at melee-range except maybe dps dcs which aint very popular.

    Imo, it doesn't make much sense for healers to be the last to reach there lol, what will they be healing, dead meat?

    Btw you need to try the other classes, if you think cw is the one that one shots normal enemies, then you are playing a different game sorry.

    Yeah, probably should play other classes more. But I tend to like them less than I like my warlock. I have played all the classes, and deleted most of them. And I'll probably do it again for the comp upgrade tokens. But I just used wizard as an example. Substitute whatever other class you feel is appropriate.

    And I'm not talking about arriving 15 minutes after the DPS and tank either, lol. More like into the first rotation of the Tank or DPS. It's a moot point though because we all know nothing like this will ever happen in the real world.

    But I will comment that ranged is still ranged and melee is still melee, whether the melee is a ranger, wizard or barbie. Or if the ranged is a barbie or fighter. Class makes no difference to it.
    Main: Angels Scar
    Guild: Ruathym Corsairs
  • lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User

    lardeson said:


    all that sounds nice on paper, only if ranged was actually viable xd. With the nerf to thaum on cw, its all melee-range in arcanist, hunger rangers play at melee cos its just better, warlocks are currently underperforming, so yes it remains a factor. You actually have to play the rest of the classes to know where their dps comes from. Unfortunately neverwinter is not a game where rangers are actually 'rangers' it all depends on what performs better and currently all classes play at melee-range except maybe dps dcs which aint very popular.

    Imo, it doesn't make much sense for healers to be the last to reach there lol, what will they be healing, dead meat?

    Btw you need to try the other classes, if you think cw is the one that one shots normal enemies, then you are playing a different game sorry.

    Yeah, probably should play other classes more. But I tend to like them less than I like my warlock. I have played all the classes, and deleted most of them. And I'll probably do it again for the comp upgrade tokens. But I just used wizard as an example. Substitute whatever other class you feel is appropriate.

    And I'm not talking about arriving 15 minutes after the DPS and tank either, lol. More like into the first rotation of the Tank or DPS. It's a moot point though because we all know nothing like this will ever happen in the real world.

    But I will comment that ranged is still ranged and melee is still melee, whether the melee is a ranger, wizard or barbie. Or if the ranged is a barbie or fighter. Class makes no difference to it.
    Imo, it makes alot more sense if the healer and tank arrive there at the same time.

    I do agree that range is range and melee is melee, but like i have stated previously, gap closers are already there to make sure there's no difference, and im not talking about gap closers with no absolute effect, but gap closers that actually do damage, and we have one on each melee class in the game. If they have gap closers and more speed they have double advantage, thats what im trying to get to. Currently any endgamer will agree that both hr and tr are the top in aoe, tr and wiz on bosses. But thats not the point, each class has something that differentiates them from others, but thats mainly inherent to the class mechanics, movement speed is an external mechanic thats not inherent to any specific class. For example trs have stealth and whenever they go into stealth they gain different bonuses, hrs can easily switch between melee and range but by hitting tab, barbies have their unstoppable, sw have their curse, etc etc etc. Those are class inherent mechanics that can make one perform better than others in specific occasions, but the reason i dont see it fit to discuss about class mechanics on this thread is simple because movement speed is not a class mechanic and they are currently working on balancing all the classes, so till then, there's really no point further discussing it.
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
  • beigeman#7856 beigeman Member Posts: 49 Arc User
    One way to balance speeds would be to ensure that there is a much stronger chance the dps would be crushed if they attack mobs first without allowing the tank to take the agro. It always tickles me when dps rush in and turn into an 'adventurer' skin rug for the mobs. But.... once again we've returned to the state where tanks aren't a necessity in the majority of encounters.
  • rafamarques#5700 rafamarques Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited October 2019

    One way to balance speeds would be to ensure that there is a much stronger chance the dps would be crushed if they attack mobs first without allowing the tank to take the agro. It always tickles me when dps rush in and turn into an 'adventurer' skin rug for the mobs. But.... once again we've returned to the state where tanks aren't a necessity in the majority of encounters.

    when you choose a tank patch you receive a mechanic that say "you have 40%more HP, -10% of damage and extra threat". that means, when you upgrade your tank gear, you have a mechanic garanting that your hp will be bigger BUT your damage will be lower.

    so... why dont put the same for dps? that means more 10% damage bonus, LESS 40% of hp and reduced threat? (healers still neutral)

    i doubt we will have that dps heroes running around.

    about close gap vs range, that is a mess. first because no close gap cover range attacks (imagine a range AOE attack that spread enemies because of threat) second because if you give extra speed for a range class that alread have dodge, what you are doing is, not only improve your turn of attack, but your defence too, running around like speed gonzales.

    "oh, but the game is too easy now to care about that", i agree, but in the beggining of scaling we see the biiiiiiiiig advantage to be a range class using dodge.
  • finalfantasyac7finalfantasyac7 Member Posts: 582 Arc User
    After 50+ lomm runs i can say i am most of the time behind due to slow speed even tho i have 37% speed ( thats what it shows on my stat) and after using shadowslip, i move slower because of Gladiator's Guile

    <span style='color:orange;'>When your Stamina is above 75%, you move </span><span style='color:white;'>15%</span><span style='color:orange;'> faster. When your Stamina is below 25%, gain 15% of your Power as Stamina Gain.</span>
    Warlock- Lv80. || Rogue - Lv80. || Wizard - Lv80. || Paladin - Lv80. || Cleric - Lv80. || Ranger - Lv70. || Barbarian - Lv70. || Fighter - Lv70.

    ¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨

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