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Talking about 'Balance' What about movement speed bonuses?
lardeson
Member Posts: 374 Arc User
Yes i know by the title people will think i've gone mad, no i haven't. Movement speed is clearly one of the most important stats in the game but looking at it from a different point, its also one of the issues with balance.
As many if you know, and especially in aoe, the difference between the dps chart can be a result of 'who got to the enemies first'. There's a misconception that class balancing is only about class mechanics, and the movement speed is usually underrated. Basically 2 players with the same class can do a dungeon and see a 30%+ difference in dps mainly due to one of the dpses having more movement speed than the other.
On the other hand, we also have classes that have class features that give them more movement speed compared to other classes, which is already an advantage they gain.
My suggestion would be to remove movement speed bonuses from the game, increase the base movement speed on all classes by 30-50%, while giving healers and tanks a slight advantage only when on their specific roles (this extra movement speed on healers and tanks shouldn't have effect in pvp). This will ensure healers and tanks get to the enemies first while the dpses should theorically get there at the same time.
There may be some question about the ranged classes having an advantage, well melee classes do have or should have powers that help them to close gaps.
This is not just a suggestion but also a discussion, perhaps while i dint start the thread in the 'feedback' section. Feel free to debate and lemme know what you think. Just my thought, dont bet your penny on it.
As many if you know, and especially in aoe, the difference between the dps chart can be a result of 'who got to the enemies first'. There's a misconception that class balancing is only about class mechanics, and the movement speed is usually underrated. Basically 2 players with the same class can do a dungeon and see a 30%+ difference in dps mainly due to one of the dpses having more movement speed than the other.
On the other hand, we also have classes that have class features that give them more movement speed compared to other classes, which is already an advantage they gain.
My suggestion would be to remove movement speed bonuses from the game, increase the base movement speed on all classes by 30-50%, while giving healers and tanks a slight advantage only when on their specific roles (this extra movement speed on healers and tanks shouldn't have effect in pvp). This will ensure healers and tanks get to the enemies first while the dpses should theorically get there at the same time.
There may be some question about the ranged classes having an advantage, well melee classes do have or should have powers that help them to close gaps.
This is not just a suggestion but also a discussion, perhaps while i dint start the thread in the 'feedback' section. Feel free to debate and lemme know what you think. Just my thought, dont bet your penny on it.
Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
8
Comments
I wouldn't complain if the base movespeed got buffed up, but I'd prefer if there were some options to increase movespeed under certain conditions (like Fighter's Momentum feat)
Cleric: You can be an angel of mercy or give in to hate. - Shinedown
Wizard: The more the dark consumes me, I pretend I'm burning bright. - Shinedown
Barbarian: Am I beautiful... as I tear you to pieces? - In This Moment
If I had more than 1 mount with GG I would use it, but I won't buy another for it either.
Just let them rush ahead and die.
I did so too, once or twice when the tank was sooooo slow or afk... If I die, it's on me. Learning process!
Thats more a symptome of 5 ppl doing party content solo together than of movement speed.
It would be weird if I had OPs running ahead of me all of a sudden. (Not in content, but imagine strolling through Shar and suddenly a Forrest-OP runs past)
While I'm really bad TR so I don't know what encounters good TR are using, there should also be something like that. (?)
Pre M16 I could do well with Trapper when I was starting in with ranged stance on the way to the boss before the others were even in combat - then moved in for melee.
That is of course a thing, but thats a set up issue of dps imo. If they couldn't rush ahead or start combat before the tank even got in sight of the mob, it prob wouldn't be that bad of a difference.
The way it is I already get some punches in before my fellow party is close, unless I wait for them/the tank. But not because of movement speed - because of my encounters.
3 stacks of GG already give you 26% movement increase, you have 12.5% from boons, 20% from chultan tiger, my cw has 6% from dex, thats 64.5% from a cw alone and im pretty sure im missing more sources. On a Rogue, add 10-15% to that as they have class features that gives them 10% free and 15% when in stealth, also more dex on a tr than cw which is atleast 1% more. So far we are at 75.5%. Rangers gain 5% more movement as long as they are in melee stance, but since they dont have the 10% rogues have, thats 70.5% for them. Paladins have 10% base movement speed so they can move as fast as rogues.
Im not gonna cover every single one of them but as you can see, on a cw without any base movement speed bonuses nor feats/class features and without considering any external effects or potions, its already 64.5% which is 14.5% higher than what you are apparently considering 'too' high.
30-50% was more of an example than an actual value, they'd prolly need to go into the 60s or 70s if they consider.
Oh and we not even considering the fact that barbies and warlocks can just sprint ahead here.
I have said it on a different thread before but what they need to do and are currently working on, is to put all classes on the same criteria, being it all multiplicative or additive, rework some class mechanics for some classes, check the cds/mag on classes.
Nerfing classes is only gonna put you back in the neverending circle of 'balance'. And just for the record, i already have alot of movement speed, and like i said previously, i have no issue on my end. All classes have aoe powers and broken abilities, thats not the main problem with balance, the algorithm is where the issue is. Some classes have rediculously high cds and low magnitude with more dots that compensate for it, while others just have low cds and high magnitude with less dot.
For example hrs dont have as much dots as cws and rogues but can put out as much damage or even more. The reason for this is because if you have a look at their feats, powers, features, you'll notice they have alot of burst damage which compensates for their lack of dots, and in certain situations where they can 1 shot normal enemies, its likely they will outdps you.
However the point I am making is this ...
"All classes have aoe powers and broken abilities, thats not the main problem with balance,"
I beg to differ. Not all Aoe/dots/range are created equally ... that act of HAVING an aoe/dot/range is meaningless if the aoe/dot/range on one class is significantly stronger than another class (perhaps even to a point where the weaker class would never even use the aoe).
That aside the point was that looking at "number of targets hit" is not JUST who has more movement speed but also who has more aoe/dot/range. If you want to tinker with one you cant exclude the other as contributing factors.
I don't necessarily agree with the argument when you also consider that some of the classes that can close the gap the fastest have the worst DPS anyway.
I'll also toss in another nugget from a console perspective. On XB, it's blatantly obvious who's running on an XB1 versus XB1X. XB1X players load in substantially faster and are generally destroying mobs before everyone else has arrived.
So to me, movement speed is like an extension of that and I could care less if others kill first or faster. I just want a successful run.
Ofc if you dont care then it shouldn't bother you whatever decision they decide to take, but IMO if we strictly talk about balancing, movement speed is one of the things to look into.
Even after they implement the new formula and people who have more movement speed outdps certain classes, they will still complain about balance.
No, im not saying that everyone having the same movement speed will fix everything but just 'one aspect' to look into.
Also i've already explained to you that what you are talking about has nothing to do with movement speed, the issue with other classes is the damage formula. Instead of trying to get them to nerf other classes for ur biddings, how about you wait for them to finish their current project and see where that leaves your class? Or actually open a thread and suggest what you want them to improve on ur class. Its not that cw, hr and tr are overperforming, its just that other classes are underperforming. Not sure whats so tough to understand about that and again movement speed has nothing to do with the powers you use or dont use. I stated in my original post that even 2 cws, hrs or trs can have the same stats, setup and everything but the ultimate difference may just be 'who got to the mobs first'. how does that have anything to do with powers? Even in a balanced situation, more movement = likely more advantage, thats what my thread is about.
That is more related to what you are talking about, in class forums and pc discussion you can find a bunch more about class balance. This isn't about any specific class balance, as i've pointed out countless times already, even among the same class the difference in movement speed can be an issue and even more considering that after balance some classes still naturally have more movement speed than others and will become another issue
Wrong ... who gets there first is a result of many factors not simply movement speed.
Very basic example to make a point.......
A gwf and a cw enter a dungeon with many mobs.
The gwf sprints ahead and single targets 2 mobs killing them before the cw arrives.
The cw then with his range / aoe then arrives and basically obliterates the other 7 kills before the gwf has a chance at touching a third mob.
Number of kills
Cw 7
GWF 2
Who gets there first? THE CW ON 7 / 9 KILLS.
Again feel free to continue focusing on what only matters to you rather then the problem as a whole.
Take care.
Oh btw i've been playing since beta and the reason i chose a cw was the fact that they were or were supposed to be prolific at aoe, in fact, when you created a cw back then, the description on the character creation was that 'wizards are good in aoe and crowd control' So yes i really dont see how your class having a bad design have anything to do with everyone having the same movement speed. Ah also feel free to suggest them to remove sprint from barbarians and just give you a normal dodge skill. Cheers and have a good day.
In an ideal setting, the tank would be the fastest - or at least able to close the gap on the enemy faster than a wizard/rogue or whatever.
Sequentially it would be:
1st = Tank
2nd = Melee DPS
3rd = Ranged DPS
4th = Healer
The tank is first in order to pull aggro, melee hits the mobs at the same time as the ranged hits and the healer is there to keep the tank alive so he can keep aggro.
In the real world, it goes ranged dps, melee dps, tank and then healer can fit anywhere in that sequence, or not at all.
Movement speed is a relatively small part of the equation but if it movement speed was worked out so fights go in the sequence above, I wouldn't complain. I think that would make balancing classes easier as their is no longer the first in, first kill scenario happening.
My 2 cents.
Guild: Ruathym Corsairs
Imo, it doesn't make much sense for healers to be the last to reach there lol, what will they be healing, dead meat?
Btw you need to try the other classes, if you think cw is the one that one shots normal enemies, then you are playing a different game sorry.
And I'm not talking about arriving 15 minutes after the DPS and tank either, lol. More like into the first rotation of the Tank or DPS. It's a moot point though because we all know nothing like this will ever happen in the real world.
But I will comment that ranged is still ranged and melee is still melee, whether the melee is a ranger, wizard or barbie. Or if the ranged is a barbie or fighter. Class makes no difference to it.
Guild: Ruathym Corsairs
I do agree that range is range and melee is melee, but like i have stated previously, gap closers are already there to make sure there's no difference, and im not talking about gap closers with no absolute effect, but gap closers that actually do damage, and we have one on each melee class in the game. If they have gap closers and more speed they have double advantage, thats what im trying to get to. Currently any endgamer will agree that both hr and tr are the top in aoe, tr and wiz on bosses. But thats not the point, each class has something that differentiates them from others, but thats mainly inherent to the class mechanics, movement speed is an external mechanic thats not inherent to any specific class. For example trs have stealth and whenever they go into stealth they gain different bonuses, hrs can easily switch between melee and range but by hitting tab, barbies have their unstoppable, sw have their curse, etc etc etc. Those are class inherent mechanics that can make one perform better than others in specific occasions, but the reason i dont see it fit to discuss about class mechanics on this thread is simple because movement speed is not a class mechanic and they are currently working on balancing all the classes, so till then, there's really no point further discussing it.
so... why dont put the same for dps? that means more 10% damage bonus, LESS 40% of hp and reduced threat? (healers still neutral)
i doubt we will have that dps heroes running around.
about close gap vs range, that is a mess. first because no close gap cover range attacks (imagine a range AOE attack that spread enemies because of threat) second because if you give extra speed for a range class that alread have dodge, what you are doing is, not only improve your turn of attack, but your defence too, running around like speed gonzales.
"oh, but the game is too easy now to care about that", i agree, but in the beggining of scaling we see the biiiiiiiiig advantage to be a range class using dodge.
<span style='color:orange;'>When your Stamina is above 75%, you move </span><span style='color:white;'>15%</span><span style='color:orange;'> faster. When your Stamina is below 25%, gain 15% of your Power as Stamina Gain.</span>¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨