When will nerfing dc stop?

odt · August 2019

Every patch i log in there's a new nerf to dc as if it's not annoying enaugh to have to play this build now with no options, buffs or interesting choices and added divinity. Please make it more fun and interesting instead again to play dc than always just a new nerf! the healing class needs changes and nerfs aren't it... Are you trying to make dcs leave the game?

utookmynick · August 2019

When there is a better balance? The purpose of nerfs are not to reduce your enjoyment or just cruelty from the devs.

Having said that, the perceived healing ease of DCs and OPs are when you are in a good group. In a bad group where the boss fights are long and everyone is constantly taking damage, spread apart and running all over the place, it's a night and day difference. These changes will hardly affect good groups, but I think it raises the bar on how bad a pug group you can heal for before you throw your hands up in frustration and just give up. Sounds harsh, but reality is, people often blame the healer and not themselves. I play tank and DPS just as much DC and OP healer, so this isn't a one sided perspective.

plasticbat · August 2019

It will never stop and that applies to everything else. It is always up and down. Get used to it.

mebengalsfan · August 2019

Problem IMO is the game mechanics are quite simple; everyone get close together. In other MMO games rarely do group stacks ontop of each other. Range damage dealers can be at range, melee are close, etc.. Other MMO provide range healing ability so healers don't have to worry about a player that maybe 50' from them as their heals hit anyone for up to 80'. The other issue with this game is how damage is handled; meaning all damage regardless of the range is considered equal but other games take into account that melee damage dealers have higher risk associated with melee type of damage so those classes that use melee have higher damage potential given this. I'm not talking like 50% more damage here but higher potential say around 5-10%.

This game is to simple and as long as we stack on top of each other and have simple mechanics the game is easy even with the adjustments to clerics or any class for that matter that plays a support role.

odt · August 2019

@plasticbat it's an mmo it will never be balanced, get used to it. Dc has been completly made boring it used to be a fun class. Do you even play dc? I need to keep these players alive not just stats on paper for your balancing. It's been 6 months balancing now get it right or leave us alone.. and now we're left with nothing.

plasticbat · August 2019

odt#4182 said:
@plasticbat it's an mmo it will mever be balanced, get used to it. Dc has been completly made boring it used to be a fun class. Do you even play dc?

1. I never asked for balance. I don't care if it is balance or not. I have played since mod 3 and I know up and down for every class. I got used to it for a long time already including the expectation of they will forever inbalance. I never for once complained about inbalance.
2. I do play Cleric. In fact, I have been playing it for the last 2 weeks as my 6th character to finish Undermountain. Yes, it is totally different from my AC/DO DC before. But, DC has been changed many times since mod 3 too.

odt · August 2019

@plasticbat Yes but it seemed to have changed for the better before because it was fun. This is not fun i don't play dc as my 6th char as heals on the side. It's all i play and it's been shredded to stupidity... and im not interested in doing dps as cleric if not i would have made a dps class then.

plasticbat · August 2019

odt#4182 said:
@plasticbat Yes but it seemed to have changed for the better before because it was fun. This is not fun i don't play dc as my 6th char as heals on the side. It's all i play and it's been shredded to stupidity... and im not interested in doing dps as cleric if not i would have made a dps class then.

I don't expect you will like it or not like it. I just state the fact that every class had and will have up and down as Cryptic chooses to do so. I got used to it. You don't have to.

By the way, all 6 are my main. I usually would progress them all at the same time. However, this time I need to re-learn them one by one from scratch. Hence, I took my time and did that in the order of the character screen and just finished before mod 17 launches.

demonmonger · August 2019

This is the story for every class... nerfs then we rebuild on a non stable or solid foundation.. just to get nerfed again after we wasted all our rp and astral to make something trashed more viable. This is the way .. this is our struggle until we just stop playing this game. Most of us play because we invested lots of time or money here and have good relationships with people that play. The investment of time and money seems to be like a snowball being cast downhill... it gets bigger and bigger until it hits something and explodes. Each mod that makes a barrier to our enjoyment becomes the potential barrier that may break the snowball. If you break we still have ways to communicate with friends... discord.. there will always be other games to play.

merik1999 · August 2019

utookmynick said:
When there is a better balance? The purpose of nerfs are not to reduce your enjoyment or just cruelty from the devs.

Having said that, the perceived healing ease of DCs and OPs are when you are in a good group. In a bad group where the boss fights are long and everyone is constantly taking damage, spread apart and running all over the place, it's a night and day difference. These changes will hardly affect good groups, but I think it raises the bar on how bad a pug group you can heal for before you throw your hands up in frustration and just give up. Sounds harsh, but reality is, people often blame the healer and not themselves. I play tank and DPS just as much DC and OP healer, so this isn't a one sided perspective.

yeah, I used to hate healing Rogues as they just roll around avoiding my heals...but they are actually dodging hits at that point so i don't need to heal them. Wiazrds are a nightmare to heal. they never stay together and because they are HDPS they run ahead constantly and by the time I catch up to them they are dead and complaining.... When I run with a group of all wizards as dps in LOMM, its almost always a wipe as they just run ahead and die and run spastically around during the worm boss.
Not sure why any nerf needs to be done to a healer? we have enough problems dealing with people blaming the healer for every stupid thing they the complaining characters do.

odt · August 2019

A suggestion if the heals are getting reduced add proper group buffs like before. I don't mind smaller heals if you can drop the shield normally, have a group dps buff that actually is worth having, proper dailies. Hence make abit more like it was add some more interesting feats, less heal botting, decent cooldowns, some kind of cooldown reduction build, casting defence buffs on players when healing them, some kind of anti stun, many things could be fun that we used to do and were group oriented support.

majorcharvenak · August 2019

utookmynick said:
When there is a better balance? The purpose of nerfs are not to reduce your enjoyment or just cruelty from the devs.

Having said that, the perceived healing ease of DCs and OPs are when you are in a good group. In a bad group where the boss fights are long and everyone is constantly taking damage, spread apart and running all over the place, it's a night and day difference. These changes will hardly affect good groups, but I think it raises the bar on how bad a pug group you can heal for before you throw your hands up in frustration and just give up. Sounds harsh, but reality is, people often blame the healer and not themselves. I play tank and DPS just as much DC and OP healer, so this isn't a one sided perspective.

^ Excellent! Someone who realizes that divinity management is a two-way street! And your point is spot on - Good groups will be slightly stressed by survive and bad ones will fail. What about groups that are in between that spectrum, I wonder.

pervertkun · August 2019

I'm a main DC. My character has 65% outgoing healing and 150k power. After patch, I've ran a LOMM to see the extent of the so called "nerf". Saw no difference, my divinity was full almost the entire dungeon.

Then I thought "Oh, maybe it's because I have outgoing up my <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that I didn't see anything different", so I got my alt DC (10% outgoing, 95k power, using a Misplaced Symbol and a Energon as summoned companion) and did a LOMM with her.
For no one's surprise, the same difficulty Ive found on the day before patch I've felt after patch. A little bit harder to keep divinity always 100% because, unlike my main with 210k + non critical bastions, my alt heals usually 70k non crit. Finished the LOMM in 30 minutes (and we had more than one alt on group).

Healing isn't supposed to be easy. If this "nerf" (balance) affected you so much, you need to aim at being a better healer with more control of your divinity. I can't play DPS as much as I wanted to because the game is swarming with 50%+ outheal healers that can't heal half of what my alt does.

As a final note, it's completely viable doing a healer/buffer character in this mod. But as people can't even do one right, I wouldn't recommend trying switching artis/waist neck combos and doing something that involves pressing more than one key at a time...

durugudesu · August 2019

I found the "nerf" really an improvement. Healing word range is adequately big now that casting it once can hit everyone in the party. That is WAY easier than casting healing word twice or thrice of 4 times and of course, lesser divinity used.

lukejones77 · August 2019

plasticbat said:

odt#4182 said:
@plasticbat it's an mmo it will mever be balanced, get used to it. Dc has been completly made boring it used to be a fun class. Do you even play dc?
1. I never asked for balance. I don't care if it is balance or not. I have played since mod 3 and I know up and down for every class. I got used to it for a long time already including the expectation of they will forever inbalance. I never for once complained about inbalance.
2. I do play Cleric. In fact, I have been playing it for the last 2 weeks as my 6th character to finish Undermountain. Yes, it is totally different from my AC/DO DC before. But, DC has been changed many times since mod 3 too.

I understand your frustration with change, but I think you need to acknowledge the importance of balance.
It's easy for a DC to say that they don't care about balance, when they've enjoyed great benefits since mod 12 - a mandatory party inclusion for valuable runs with new content, to the extent that it was more common to have 2 DCs than one - DCs performing so well that the 3DPS/1 healer/1 tank design was smashed to tatters.

It seems that the healing equation needs to be adjusted to make content more challenging (enjoyable), and, (dare I suggest), damage seems to come to DCs too easily, at lower gear scores than you would expect - even when using the healing role.

All that points to on-going adjustment. Take heart. From my perception, Cryptic have affected massive change in 2 short mods, going beyond the ineffective adjustments that happened for years prior to mod 16. A DC might not see that as clearly as a "forever" TR, SW or CW would, but all this has been a massive step forward to game that can actually offer enjoyable challenge, and reward that doesn't come to you at the expense of others just because of the class that you chose to play.
It's frustrating to have ongoing changes, but it's far better than the alternative, and Cryptic appear to be zoning in on fair and more enjoyable play for all, quite quickly.
Consider that you might be "suffering change " because your class is over-performing, and maybe just try to enjoy it while it lasts

plasticbat · August 2019

lukejones77 said:

plasticbat said:

odt#4182 said:
@plasticbat it's an mmo it will mever be balanced, get used to it. Dc has been completly made boring it used to be a fun class. Do you even play dc?
1. I never asked for balance. I don't care if it is balance or not. I have played since mod 3 and I know up and down for every class. I got used to it for a long time already including the expectation of they will forever inbalance. I never for once complained about inbalance.
2. I do play Cleric. In fact, I have been playing it for the last 2 weeks as my 6th character to finish Undermountain. Yes, it is totally different from my AC/DO DC before. But, DC has been changed many times since mod 3 too.
I understand your frustration with change, but I think you need to acknowledge the importance of balance.
It's easy for a DC to say that they don't care about balance, when they've enjoyed great benefits since mod 12 - a mandatory party inclusion for valuable runs with new content, to the extent that it was more common to have 2 DCs than one - DCs performing so well that the 3DPS/1 healer/1 tank design was smashed to tatters.

It seems that the healing equation needs to be adjusted to make content more challenging (enjoyable), and, (dare I suggest), damage seems to come to DCs too easily, at lower gear scores than you would expect - even when using the healing role.

All that points to on-going adjustment. Take heart. From my perception, Cryptic have affected massive change in 2 short mods, going beyond the ineffective adjustments that happened for years prior to mod 16. A DC might not see that as clearly as a "forever" TR, SW or CW would, but all this has been a massive step forward to game that can actually offer enjoyable challenge, and reward that doesn't come to you at the expense of others just because of the class that you chose to play.
It's frustrating to have ongoing changes, but it's far better than the alternative, and Cryptic appear to be zoning in on fair and more enjoyable play for all, quite quickly.
Consider that you might be "suffering change " because your class is over-performing, and maybe just try to enjoy it while it lasts

What? Since you quoted me, I assume you are talking to me.

I have no frustration of the change at all. It was a reply to somebody who claimed I asked for balance. I replied I did not ask for balance. I also do not against balance neither. I do not have much objection of the changes. I am one of those, you throw it to me, I will deal with it type. A change is just a new puzzle for me to solve. The only serious objection I had made so far was about RQ (which I personally consider it is very bad) since the introduction of RQ. That is a totally different topic and I have whined way more than people can bear now. I also deal with it by not doing it.

Cleric is only one of my 6 mains.

finmakin · August 2019

utookmynick said:
When there is a better balance? The purpose of nerfs are not to reduce your enjoyment or just cruelty from the devs.

Having said that, the perceived healing ease of DCs and OPs are when you are in a good group. In a bad group where the boss fights are long and everyone is constantly taking damage, spread apart and running all over the place, it's a night and day difference. These changes will hardly affect good groups, but I think it raises the bar on how bad a pug group you can heal for before you throw your hands up in frustration and just give up. Sounds harsh, but reality is, people often blame the healer and not themselves. I play tank and DPS just as much DC and OP healer, so this isn't a one sided perspective.

A reaction from a (former) classical tank.

Before someone (I group with on regular base) opened my eyes I was a so called classical tank (old school) with approx 20 years of tanking experiences troughout several MMO's and performed well in my role.

Mod17 brought a complete new perspective to NW by a complete overhaul of the game (frankly said, the Dev's brought the game where it should be if you ask me) by bringing back the need of tanks and healers because Clerics where forced to abandon their heal capacities due that heavingly overpowered life steal DPS got... It affected their playstyle and didn't care about standing in red or not... But things has changed, now they have the risk of dying when they stand in red (or when pushing to the limit by stealing aggro from tank)..
I still see regurally those players neglecting these things and therefore placing an unnesserserry burden on the healer in their attemt to heal those players with the risk the healer runs out of resourses to use their heals on critical moments.

I feel the frustation of healers as I know my own frustation sometimes as being a tank, sometimes I have a short PM conversation with healer to teach these players a little lesson by just let them die and communicate with those players afterwards about their mistakes because it's not the healer / tanks fault when they die imho.
When I encounter such players I always take time to write them a mail about their mistakes and how they can perform better in the future because we all had (and must) to adopt to the new situation mod17 has given us.

Personally I hardly join pug for the simple reason that I am connected to a quite large community (Legit) and sometimes I come time to short.. group with all (players who know what they are doing and players who are somewhat new to current endgame content).. It doesn't matter to me.

After the talk I had with the person (who hate dwarves

) who opened my eyes about my tanking capabillities I have learned (and tested) to let go (and let them running ahead to fight) if the group is capable enough to handle mobs en focus more on intercepting when it's needed, same people are not only aware of their capabillities but also of their limitations... Which means for me (as tank) that I must adopt to the capabillities of the group and not the other way around... It all depends of the performances of players in group on how I play.

Bottomline is that not the healer or the tank who is to blame but more about the playstyle of quite some DPS players itself... Time of feeling invincible is gone and they have to adopt to the mechanics of (especially) bosses to ease the burden of the healer.
Nobody is forced to depend on pug groups, find friends or join of the many communities where the need of pugging is long gone and a helpfull hand is always around the corner..

Personally I am looking forward to be a classical tank again in ToMM
Cheers.

kemnimtarkas · August 2019

odt#4182 said:
Every patch i log in there's a new nerf to dc as if it's not annoying enaugh to have to play this build now with no options, buffs or interesting choices and added divinity. Please make it more fun and interesting instead again to play dc than always just a new nerf! the healing class needs changes and nerfs aren't it... Are you trying to make dcs leave the game?

So in brief, the nerfing will never stop. Powers/feats will be enhanced, then nerfed, then enhanced, then nerfed, then nerfed, then nerfed some more. How does that Talking Heads song go? Same as it ever was.

markhawkman · August 2019

majorcharvenak said:

utookmynick said:
When there is a better balance? The purpose of nerfs are not to reduce your enjoyment or just cruelty from the devs.

Having said that, the perceived healing ease of DCs and OPs are when you are in a good group. In a bad group where the boss fights are long and everyone is constantly taking damage, spread apart and running all over the place, it's a night and day difference. These changes will hardly affect good groups, but I think it raises the bar on how bad a pug group you can heal for before you throw your hands up in frustration and just give up. Sounds harsh, but reality is, people often blame the healer and not themselves. I play tank and DPS just as much DC and OP healer, so this isn't a one sided perspective.
^ Excellent! Someone who realizes that divinity management is a two-way street! And your point is spot on - Good groups will be slightly stressed by survive and bad ones will fail. What about groups that are in between that spectrum, I wonder.

did throne of the Dwarven gods on my Warlock today. Got second best healing while trying to DPS. I had a Lilend companion so that adds to my healing, but my actual character has no active heals at all.

markhawkman · August 2019

kemnimtarkas said:

odt#4182 said:
Every patch i log in there's a new nerf to dc as if it's not annoying enaugh to have to play this build now with no options, buffs or interesting choices and added divinity. Please make it more fun and interesting instead again to play dc than always just a new nerf! the healing class needs changes and nerfs aren't it... Are you trying to make dcs leave the game?
So in brief, the nerfing will never stop. Powers/feats will be enhanced, then nerfed, then enhanced, then nerfed, then nerfed, then nerfed some more. How does that Talking Heads song go? Same as it ever was.

When things go spinnin' 'round, things come undone! Welcome to the Earth third rock from the sun!

When will nerfing dc stop?

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