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Make PVP According to Item Level

thebenetratorthebenetrator Member Posts: 13 Arc User
The Problem: PVP Mismatch makes PVP less enjoyable for everyone

Like in real life, its no fun pitting high level athletes to compete with amateur athletes, nobody has fun on either side, nobody would even want to watch that happen. Same problem we have with PVP

The Premise:

High Level PVP Players do not like playing with low item level players on their team because the low item level players will cost them the game by dying within 1 second all the time or not knowing how to cap

On the other hand, Low level players avoid PVP because... well... who wants to get smoked over and over again, with their team breathing down their necks calling them all manner of derogatory names.... and then kicking them out as soon as possible

So how to get everyone from low level to high level happy and into PVP?

My suggestion

Item Level Brackets. for example:

18,000-19,500
19,501-21,000
21,001-22,500
22,501-24,000

Then its 24,001 and up open

The Benefits:

Everyone can enter into PVP and move up as they learn and grow stronger while enjoying PVP with players around their same item level
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Comments

  • gweddrygweddry Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 275 Arc User
    This has been suggested over and over and over throughout the years. There have been very well thought out ideas. We kept asking for it, but nobody cared. Nowadays there isn't nearly enough players for the different brackets to fill, not anymore. If PvP sees some sort of a revival with the upcoming changes, then yes, brackets and/or item level based matchmaking would improve the experience significantly.
  • cherryman1cherryman1 Member Posts: 337 Arc User
    The way you do this is to have a pvp version that is very limiting to what works in it so that newer players can get into it VERY easily and be at 99% as effective as a veteran player who has been playing for years (at least based on character capabilities and not player talent). This would be a HUGE benefit to pvp because eventually they would want to be able to play in the unlimited version of PvP where everyone can use all of their current build items.
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  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,899 Arc User
    edited August 2019

    The Problem: PVP Mismatch makes PVP less enjoyable for everyone

    Like in real life, its no fun pitting high level athletes to compete with amateur athletes, nobody has fun on either side, nobody would even want to watch that happen. Same problem we have with PVP

    The Premise:

    High Level PVP Players do not like playing with low item level players on their team because the low item level players will cost them the game by dying within 1 second all the time or not knowing how to cap

    On the other hand, Low level players avoid PVP because... well... who wants to get smoked over and over again, with their team breathing down their necks calling them all manner of derogatory names.... and then kicking them out as soon as possible

    So how to get everyone from low level to high level happy and into PVP?

    My suggestion

    Item Level Brackets. for example:

    18,000-19,500
    19,501-21,000
    21,001-22,500
    22,501-24,000

    Then its 24,001 and up open

    The Benefits:

    Everyone can enter into PVP and move up as they learn and grow stronger while enjoying PVP with players around their same item level

    Or ... they could just scale player item level/ max enchantment levels.. just like Pve dungeons ..
    instead of matching the bracket to the player ..scale the player to the bracket ..
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 405 Arc User
    They won't scale. Players with then could go in with lower gear(and save money). Highly unlikely. Brackets would be cool, but not enough of a population to do that. Getting 1 que, of anyone available, can take a while. A 3 vs 3 would be a good idea, and I think more people would try it with friends. Some players dealt with bots in the past. Others a toxic environment where told, to "go back to dungeons". Players need to hear feedback from other players that is positive, in order for more to try pvp. The new mod hopefully will help that and increase the player pool. That's what pvp needs. Enough people so it's not 9 veterans vs 1 new person.
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,899 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    @stark760

    OMG lol so what if a new player Qs for Pvp in the lower brackets to "save money" at the "expense" of the population /participation increasing / completely disagree with the logic of that premise ..does that mean they wont spend any money ..? lol that is a falicy backed up by no facts and that is not how they work Pve here either .maybe they will buy cosmetics for thier pvp character maybe they will by more pack space to hold more items etc who knows ,,NOt al lpower is sold outright ..most/ alot of free Pvp games sell skins and cosmetics and not power / advantage and they do just fine ..

    so with proposed item scalling / brackets is he/she not Queued up cause he feels its more/fair has a shot ? and that is not good for business or money ? or the games bottom line LOLZ

    I already wrote entire threads how to monitze Pvp without selling power
    however ..if a player is a whale they will spend money in pvp / pve regardless....

    maybe this "cheap player that is trying to save money" will have a good experience and recommend/ play the game to someone who will spend money ??

    also why your logic is flawed ..
    The devs removed/disable pets from pvp.. Is that cause they wanted people to "save money"/ screw cryptic over for their bottom line .. LOLZ ? or they wanted it to be more fair/ accessible ?

    furthermore ..already proposed/ in conjunction with this in the pvp forums the top bracket for the spending whale players would be unscalled anyways taking care of that objection that handing out free gear /item level means people wont pay to get better

    ..they already hand out free gear like candy for pve players to "catchup" ...does that mean that those players wont pay / contribute lol lolz? or is it to get thier beak wet so they can at least participate ..?

    scalled or not you would still buy gear/ enchantment / items if you were into pvp
    and for people that dont want to feel that they lost their investment /. still want to stomp players they can Q for unscalled
    elite Q and meet similar players
    Post edited by kalina311 on
  • lemollenlemollen Member Posts: 102 Arc User
    No need to purposely make brackets for pvp. Just include pvp into random queues. There are brackets already and if high item level q lower level, they will be auto scaled down. Pvp will definitely increase and people will be rewarded when they pvp.
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 405 Arc User
    kalina311 said:

    @stark760

    OMG lol so what if a new player Qs for Pvp in the lower brackets to "save money" at the "expense" of the population /participation increasing / completely disagree with the logic of that premise ..does that mean they wont spend any money ..? lol that is a falicy backed up by no facts and that is not how they work Pve here either .maybe they will buy cosmetics for thier pvp character maybe they will by more pack space to hold more items etc who knows ,,NOt al lpower is sold outright ..most/ alot of free Pvp games sell skins and cosmetics and not power / advantage and they do just fine ..

    so with proposed item scalling / brackets is he/she not Queued up cause he feels its more/fair has a shot ? and that is not good for business or money ? or the games bottom line LOLZ

    I already wrote entire threads how to monitze Pvp without selling power
    however ..if a player is a whale they will spend money in pvp / pve regardless....

    maybe this "cheap player that is trying to save money" will have a good experience and recommend/ play the game to someone who will spend money ??

    also why your logic is flawed ..
    The devs removed/disable pets from pvp.. Is that cause they wanted people to "save money"/ screw cryptic over for their bottom line .. LOLZ ? or they wanted it to be more fair/ accessible ?

    furthermore ..already proposed/ in conjunction with this in the pvp forums the top bracket for the spending whale players would be unscalled anyways taking care of that objection that handing out free gear /item level means people wont pay to get better

    ..they already hand out free gear like candy for pve players to "catchup" ...does that mean that those players wont pay / contribute lol lolz? or is it to get thier beak wet so they can at least participate ..?

    scalled or not you would still buy gear/ enchantment / items if you were into pvp
    and for people that dont want to feel that they lost their investment /. still want to stomp players they can Q for unscalled
    elite Q and meet similar players

    At the expense of the population? No, at the expense of cryptic's wallet. Not happening. Same reason they won't eliminate comps or mount insignias. Because the pvp players will spend. But not if they scale like you want, or eliminate comps(2.25 mil AD each to go from green-leg). Yes, they hand out gear to catch up. But also, they leave things that will usually make players spend AD if they want to continue pvp. I think scaling wouldn't be bad. Yes, some of the veteran players would upset. In the end, that really isn't the issue(at least I don't think). Cryptic's bottom line is what matters to Cryptic. Same reason they won't offer a 250-500 zen upgrade, to let people expand the runic bags to the new 42 slot bags.
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    We had this before.. people would take off high gears for low gears then beat the snot out of under geared players
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  • cherryman1cherryman1 Member Posts: 337 Arc User
    lemollen said:

    No need to purposely make brackets for pvp. Just include pvp into random queues. There are brackets already and if high item level q lower level, they will be auto scaled down. Pvp will definitely increase and people will be rewarded when they pvp.

    If they put pvp into randoms there won't be anyone doing those randoms in game. Most will park their toons in the safe zone and wait for the pvp to finish or you would see a bunch of people drop from it all of the time to take the 30 minute penalty.
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  • kiraskytowerkiraskytower Member Posts: 452 Arc User
    stark760 said:


    At the expense of the population? No, at the expense of cryptic's wallet. Not happening. Same reason they won't eliminate comps or mount insignias. Because the pvp players will spend. But not if they scale like you want, or eliminate comps(2.25 mil AD each to go from green-leg). Yes, they hand out gear to catch up. But also, they leave things that will usually make players spend AD if they want to continue pvp. I think scaling wouldn't be bad. Yes, some of the veteran players would upset. In the end, that really isn't the issue(at least I don't think). Cryptic's bottom line is what matters to Cryptic. Same reason they won't offer a 250-500 zen upgrade, to let people expand the runic bags to the new 42 slot bags.

    They have already removed companions from PvP in Mod 17 ... so what makes you think they won't remove other things? Sure, there was a time when PvPers were the "Big Spenders" in NW, but these days with things like ToMM coming out it's the PvEers that are making the money for Cryptic. There just aren't enough people left who do only PvP to affect their bottom line much (Most die hard PvPers will still be upgrading companions .... not for PvP but because they want to be able to do the PvE content too).
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  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,899 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    stark760 said:

    kalina311 said:

    @stark760

    OMG lol so what if a new player Qs for Pvp in the lower brackets to "save money" at the "expense" of the population /participation increasing / completely disagree with the logic of that premise ..does that mean they wont spend any money ..? lol that is a falicy backed up by no facts and that is not how they work Pve here either .maybe they will buy cosmetics for thier pvp character maybe they will by more pack space to hold more items etc who knows ,,NOt al lpower is sold outright ..most/ alot of free Pvp games sell skins and cosmetics and not power / advantage and they do just fine ..

    so with proposed item scalling / brackets is he/she not Queued up cause he feels its more/fair has a shot ? and that is not good for business or money ? or the games bottom line LOLZ

    I already wrote entire threads how to monitze Pvp without selling power
    however ..if a player is a whale they will spend money in pvp / pve regardless....

    maybe this "cheap player that is trying to save money" will have a good experience and recommend/ play the game to someone who will spend money ??

    also why your logic is flawed ..
    The devs removed/disable pets from pvp.. Is that cause they wanted people to "save money"/ screw cryptic over for their bottom line .. LOLZ ? or they wanted it to be more fair/ accessible ?

    furthermore ..already proposed/ in conjunction with this in the pvp forums the top bracket for the spending whale players would be unscalled anyways taking care of that objection that handing out free gear /item level means people wont pay to get better

    ..they already hand out free gear like candy for pve players to "catchup" ...does that mean that those players wont pay / contribute lol lolz? or is it to get thier beak wet so they can at least participate ..?

    scalled or not you would still buy gear/ enchantment / items if you were into pvp
    and for people that dont want to feel that they lost their investment /. still want to stomp players they can Q for unscalled
    elite Q and meet similar players

    At the expense of the population? No, at the expense of cryptic's wallet. Not happening. Same reason they won't eliminate comps or mount insignias. Because the pvp players will spend. But not if they scale like you want, or eliminate comps(2.25 mil AD each to go from green-leg). Yes, they hand out gear to catch up. But also, they leave things that will usually make players spend AD if they want to continue pvp. I think scaling wouldn't be bad. Yes, some of the veteran players would upset. In the end, that really isn't the issue(at least I don't think). Cryptic's bottom line is what matters to Cryptic. Same reason they won't offer a 250-500 zen upgrade, to let people expand the runic bags to the new 42 slot bags.
    lol clearly you did not read what i wrote / patch notes they DID eliminate companion from 5 v 5 pvp ..
    your logic is flawed

    ..item that are scale that proc effects still proc effects regardless if they are scaled or not (and will still be sought after ) /... and like i said there would be a no holds bared Elite Q to uses anything you want for the elite pros to spend money once they are already hooked ..or the pre made 5 v5 / 10 v 10 / 20v 20 custom Q that are already in the game ..

    if there are no new players attracted because of perceived imbalance with the pay to win pvp wales Queue
    no new people will spend money anyways to try a more balanced /scalled fair win loss elo Q if it does not exist ... ...chicken and egg ..
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 405 Arc User
    You can lol all you want, go lolz too. Cryptic isn't going to do a scaled pvp and in their mind, lose money. Clearly don't understand economics of the game or the people that run the game. Cryptic wants the whales, they spend. They don't care about perceived imbalance. Go lolz some more and maybe that will sink in.
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 405 Arc User

    stark760 said:


    At the expense of the population? No, at the expense of cryptic's wallet. Not happening. Same reason they won't eliminate comps or mount insignias. Because the pvp players will spend. But not if they scale like you want, or eliminate comps(2.25 mil AD each to go from green-leg). Yes, they hand out gear to catch up. But also, they leave things that will usually make players spend AD if they want to continue pvp. I think scaling wouldn't be bad. Yes, some of the veteran players would upset. In the end, that really isn't the issue(at least I don't think). Cryptic's bottom line is what matters to Cryptic. Same reason they won't offer a 250-500 zen upgrade, to let people expand the runic bags to the new 42 slot bags.

    They have already removed companions from PvP in Mod 17 ... so what makes you think they won't remove other things? Sure, there was a time when PvPers were the "Big Spenders" in NW, but these days with things like ToMM coming out it's the PvEers that are making the money for Cryptic. There just aren't enough people left who do only PvP to affect their bottom line much (Most die hard PvPers will still be upgrading companions .... not for PvP but because they want to be able to do the PvE content too).
    And they'll get rid of shadowclad's or nerf them? Or give a rank 12 shadowclad to new players. OK. Keep believing that. You bring up bottom line for cryptic. Why don't they allow an upgrade to runic bags, after they just released a 42 slot bag? How many players are actually going to trash a runic bag and buy the 42 slot bag? They don't care, and will take however much gets spent on the new bags. Does that mean that they will lose a lot of money on the older players that sit on their 36 slot runic bags...probably. PVP would be better if they got rid of max'd out weapon and armor enchants, mount insignias, nullified leg mount bonuses, guild boons, etc. Getting rid of comps will be a huge help, they should've never counted anyways. But will they scale? I highly doubt it. People can bring up examples and logic as to why Cryptic should change it, and most have good ideas. As demonmonger said, people take off their high gear. And cryptic wants to make money. Could they offer a zen upgrade for runic bags, and have almost everyone that bought runic bags pay for the upgrade? Sure. Not saying they make money smartly, efficiently, or how others think they would.
  • kiraskytowerkiraskytower Member Posts: 452 Arc User
    stark760 said:


    They have already removed companions from PvP in Mod 17 ... so what makes you think they won't remove other things? Sure, there was a time when PvPers were the "Big Spenders" in NW, but these days with things like ToMM coming out it's the PvEers that are making the money for Cryptic. There just aren't enough people left who do only PvP to affect their bottom line much (Most die hard PvPers will still be upgrading companions .... not for PvP but because they want to be able to do the PvE content too).

    And they'll get rid of shadowclad's or nerf them? Or give a rank 12 shadowclad to new players. OK. Keep believing that. You bring up bottom line for cryptic. Why don't they allow an upgrade to runic bags, after they just released a 42 slot bag? How many players are actually going to trash a runic bag and buy the 42 slot bag? They don't care, and will take however much gets spent on the new bags. Does that mean that they will lose a lot of money on the older players that sit on their 36 slot runic bags...probably. PVP would be better if they got rid of max'd out weapon and armor enchants, mount insignias, nullified leg mount bonuses, guild boons, etc. Getting rid of comps will be a huge help, they should've never counted anyways. But will they scale? I highly doubt it. People can bring up examples and logic as to why Cryptic should change it, and most have good ideas. As demonmonger said, people take off their high gear. And cryptic wants to make money. Could they offer a zen upgrade for runic bags, and have almost everyone that bought runic bags pay for the upgrade? Sure. Not saying they make money smartly, efficiently, or how others think they would.
    I didn't say anything about Shadowclads or any other enchantments .... I only commented that they had removed companions bonuses from PvP (finally!) and could easily remove more things .... like mount powers or insignia bonuses or even apply item level scaling (all of which would be good).

    If they were willing to remove high level weapon and armor enchants from most PvE, they could do the same for PvP ....
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  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 405 Arc User
    Removing comps that shouldn't have been in there is a good start, but it's not scaling. Just upsets people that spent on comps for PVP. They aren't going to scale so the rank 12 shadowclad doesn't proc the stealth/stun, and that alone is a huge hurdle for the normal pvp player. I really hope they get rid of comps, but I've seen nothing concrete on the forums. Mount insignias would also be a huge step. But it's an MMO, the idea is to get better gear, and continues next mod with better pvp gear that you can grind for, better than the free stuff you can get. No one grinds for the gear if they are going to scale you back down to the free gear. Biggest obstacle is there isn't enough ques(players queing) for avg players to play against avg players who just want to feel it out. They get thrown in with veterans usually, who are all using OP sigil/shadowclad/leg mount/etc. Anyways, hope they keep making changes, like the OP sigil I hear, and the comps being removed.

  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,899 Arc User
    edited August 2019

    We had this before.. people would take off high gears for low gears then beat the snot out of under geared players

    what is/ was their the purpose of doing this ? /and how does that relate to this discussion ? What is the point you are trying to make ?

    There were/are no brackets/ matchmaking ... And these (so called bating gear removing people ) had better guild boons / and better regular overpowered boons(that have all been removed ) / and worked together on a mike/ and action point gain/ stamina was way over the top/ and were perhaps on an alt ... back then (mod 7-12 ) certain classes worked better and were cheaper to gear for pvp therefore needed less gear to perform (Tr cough cough)

    Lets see some Elite Pvp player fight and Own /Trick people wearing no gear/ no boons in mod 17..lol not going to happen

    there is no Gaming the Pvp system by adjusting or lowering your items level / then swapping gear ..

    Pvp did/ does not match by gear score/ item level .. so people are free to remove or not remove gear to change their item level to trick their opponents examining them as they see fit.. I dont really see how that matters in establishing balance

    People can still read the opponents guild Tag and inspect [email protected] and this low item level gear swapping deception does not last for long .
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 405 Arc User
    kalina311 said:

    We had this before.. people would take off high gears for low gears then beat the snot out of under geared players

    what is/ was their the purpose of doing this ? /and how does that relate to this discussion ? What is the point you are tryig to make ?

    There were/are no brackets/ matchmaking ... And these (so called bating gear removing people ) had better guild boons / and better regular overpowered boons(that have all been removed ) / and worked together on a mike/ and action point gain/ stamina was way over the top/ and were perhaps on an alt ... back then (mod 7-12 ) certain classes worked better and were cheaper to gear for pvp therefore needed less gear to perform (Tr cough cough)

    Lets see some Elite Pvp player fight and Own /Trick people wearing no gear/ no boons in mod 17..lol not going to happen

    there is no Gaming the Pvp system by adjusting or lowering your items level / then swapping gear ..

    Pvp did/ does not match by gear score/ item level .. so people are free to remove or not remove gear to change their item level to trick their opponents examining them as they see fit.. I dont really see how that matters in establishing balance

    People can still read the opponents guild Tag and inspect [email protected] and this low item level gear swapping deception does not last for long .
    His point was it doesn't work.....
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 405 Arc User
    Question on proposed scaling. Does that mean all artifacts will have same cooldown time(60 secs), or will people that have mythic artifacts get their timer raised? Just curious.
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,899 Arc User
    stark760 said:

    kalina311 said:

    We had this before.. people would take off high gears for low gears then beat the snot out of under geared players

    what is/ was their the purpose of doing this ? /and how does that relate to this discussion ? What is the point you are tryig to make ?

    There were/are no brackets/ matchmaking ... And these (so called bating gear removing people ) had better guild boons / and better regular overpowered boons(that have all been removed ) / and worked together on a mike/ and action point gain/ stamina was way over the top/ and were perhaps on an alt ... back then (mod 7-12 ) certain classes worked better and were cheaper to gear for pvp therefore needed less gear to perform (Tr cough cough)

    Lets see some Elite Pvp player fight and Own /Trick people wearing no gear/ no boons in mod 17..lol not going to happen

    there is no Gaming the Pvp system by adjusting or lowering your items level / then swapping gear ..

    Pvp did/ does not match by gear score/ item level .. so people are free to remove or not remove gear to change their item level to trick their opponents examining them as they see fit.. I dont really see how that matters in establishing balance

    People can still read the opponents guild Tag and inspect [email protected] and this low item level gear swapping deception does not last for long .
    His point was it doesn't work.....
    Thanks for answering and interpreting for him .. :D

    what does not work/ and would it work now / vs then ?
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 405 Arc User
    Player base is hard enough to get 1 que. X2 glory right now, and no one running, because glory is broken in domination and not enough for 10 v 10 gauntlgrym most of time. Making it more "balanced" or fair would mean it's not a grind/mmo type. Can't say to scale armor, when they offer 1 set coming out for free and a better set for glory/seals. If you scale that better armor, why farm it? Removing things like comp, mount insignias, will help, but not going to help if people go in with a rank 8 weapon/armor enchant. If they scale the weapon/armor enchant, will that remove the lvl 12 stun/stealth from shadowclad? Artifact timers, do they get "scaled"?. Huge difference in 1min vs 2-3min cooldowns. Only way to break into 2 groups is offer different rewards(better) for those that go into the "veteran" que, but something good enough for the avg que to take part. But if rewards too good, the vets will just scavenge in that que, and enjoy getting the kills. More so if the veteran que not popping. If they had hundred's queing, you'd have options to change and make different brackets, restrictions, and so forth. As it is, just getting anyone to get 1 que is a struggle.
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,899 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    conclusion.. cryptic already milked all the possible income they could out of Pvp and drove it that way on purpose as part of the " business model" ....
  • lemollenlemollen Member Posts: 102 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    Conclusion pvp is dead, hard to revive. Pve sucks too. Game is dying. Nothing to see here. Everyone move on to other games.
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 405 Arc User
    There's a good amount of decently geared players that haven't ever tried it. If they can somehow give it a boost(new mod should help), maybe have 2 ques, 1 for people with no achievements. Probably still ways around that too, but at least once someone terrorizes the beginner que, and gets the titles, have to move on.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,626 Arc User
    kalina311 said:

    The Problem: PVP Mismatch makes PVP less enjoyable for everyone

    Like in real life, its no fun pitting high level athletes to compete with amateur athletes, nobody has fun on either side, nobody would even want to watch that happen. Same problem we have with PVP

    The Premise:

    High Level PVP Players do not like playing with low item level players on their team because the low item level players will cost them the game by dying within 1 second all the time or not knowing how to cap

    On the other hand, Low level players avoid PVP because... well... who wants to get smoked over and over again, with their team breathing down their necks calling them all manner of derogatory names.... and then kicking them out as soon as possible

    So how to get everyone from low level to high level happy and into PVP?

    My suggestion

    Item Level Brackets. for example:

    18,000-19,500
    19,501-21,000
    21,001-22,500
    22,501-24,000

    Then its 24,001 and up open

    The Benefits:

    Everyone can enter into PVP and move up as they learn and grow stronger while enjoying PVP with players around their same item level

    Or ... they could just scale player item level/ max enchantment levels.. just like Pve dungeons ..
    instead of matching the bracket to the player ..scale the player to the bracket ..
    … because scaling worked SO well in PVE when Mod 16 dropped.

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1250891/tiamat-fail
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,899 Arc User
    edited August 2019

    kalina311 said:

    The Problem: PVP Mismatch makes PVP less enjoyable for everyone

    Like in real life, its no fun pitting high level athletes to compete with amateur athletes, nobody has fun on either side, nobody would even want to watch that happen. Same problem we have with PVP

    The Premise:

    High Level PVP Players do not like playing with low item level players on their team because the low item level players will cost them the game by dying within 1 second all the time or not knowing how to cap

    On the other hand, Low level players avoid PVP because... well... who wants to get smoked over and over again, with their team breathing down their necks calling them all manner of derogatory names.... and then kicking them out as soon as possible

    So how to get everyone from low level to high level happy and into PVP?

    My suggestion

    Item Level Brackets. for example:

    18,000-19,500
    19,501-21,000
    21,001-22,500
    22,501-24,000

    Then its 24,001 and up open

    The Benefits:

    Everyone can enter into PVP and move up as they learn and grow stronger while enjoying PVP with players around their same item level

    Or ... they could just scale player item level/ max enchantment levels.. just like Pve dungeons ..
    instead of matching the bracket to the player ..scale the player to the bracket ..
    … because scaling worked SO well in PVE when Mod 16 dropped.

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1250891/tiamat-fail
    Umm scaling (as a global concept / word/ idea /areas )was bugged on the release of mod 16 dude nice try tho !!!!!!!

    scaling players vs npcs/ on different level Pve content is not the same as scaling pvp players gear vs each other on the same level playing field ... are the "scaled " monsters getting the same gear/ enchantment as the players in pve ..? no ??
    so then its a different scaling /balance we are talking about here then.

    Making pvp players closer to each others item level wise via various means already listed below is the "scaling" I am referring to in this context ..

    you are deliberately making a confusing and misleading statement that pve scaling of bugged enemies/ mobs / frequency and attacks (armor pen and counter stats ) and different areas vs just of scaling gear/enchantments/insignia /artifacts (for pvp ) to try making your point in order to shoot down ,mine ..

    (currently companions /insignia and artifacts are not counted for and scaled properly in lower level pve content either)

    ... pve scaling and pvp scaling are not the same thing nor would pvp scaling need all the pve elements..
    there is no bugged scaling NPCs / (critters as devs like to call them) .. attacking you in 5 v 5 pvp (or vice versa) ..thought with some new players ..it may feel like you are attacking bots

    everything was bugged in release of mod 16 whats your point they still went along with it and fixed it ..
    I dont see what your link shows or proves or how it adds to the conversation

    you just want to put "scaling" (and its early failure in mod 16 pve ) and blanket it for the whole game and areas into one jumbo word/ concept and have it do all the talking for ya in order to discredit my suggestion ..

    lol thats not how it works when having discussion with me bro .// When the devs introduce new content it can be / is bugged at first however that not a valid reason not to implement / continue work on it . and dismiss pvp scaling outright
    due to sloppy new mod 16 pve implementations / test runs / balancing

    you are just salty that they removed the companion bonuses from pvp lol to "scale it better" lolz : D
    and the devs did not listen to your misguided poor "advice"

    P.s and all your "proof" / input is a link to a known bugged Pve Tiamat Queue that they fixed ..or Queue that pugs have trouble with mechanics/ or need a better tutorial /guide / lol omg ..its the dragon breath wiping people ( not taking the stones ) not the mobs ,.. how much do you want them to scale down a damm dragon breath to 1% of players health in damage lol ..

    or perhaps your suggestions is they need a guide for pvp players just like tiamat should have one
    what and excellent suggestion + 1
    Post edited by kalina311 on
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,626 Arc User
    kalina311 said:

    kalina311 said:

    The Problem: PVP Mismatch makes PVP less enjoyable for everyone

    Like in real life, its no fun pitting high level athletes to compete with amateur athletes, nobody has fun on either side, nobody would even want to watch that happen. Same problem we have with PVP

    The Premise:

    High Level PVP Players do not like playing with low item level players on their team because the low item level players will cost them the game by dying within 1 second all the time or not knowing how to cap

    On the other hand, Low level players avoid PVP because... well... who wants to get smoked over and over again, with their team breathing down their necks calling them all manner of derogatory names.... and then kicking them out as soon as possible

    So how to get everyone from low level to high level happy and into PVP?

    My suggestion

    Item Level Brackets. for example:

    18,000-19,500
    19,501-21,000
    21,001-22,500
    22,501-24,000

    Then its 24,001 and up open

    The Benefits:

    Everyone can enter into PVP and move up as they learn and grow stronger while enjoying PVP with players around their same item level

    Or ... they could just scale player item level/ max enchantment levels.. just like Pve dungeons ..
    instead of matching the bracket to the player ..scale the player to the bracket ..
    … because scaling worked SO well in PVE when Mod 16 dropped.

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1250891/tiamat-fail
    Umm scaling (as a global concept / word/ idea /areas )was bugged on the release of mod 16 dude nice try tho !!!!!!!

    scaling players vs npcs/ on different level Pve content is not the same as scaling pvp players gear vs each other on the same level playing field ... are the "scaled " monsters getting the same gear/ enchantment as the players in pve ..? no ??
    so then its a different scaling /balance we are talking about here then.

    Making pvp players closer to each others item level wise via various means already listed below is the "scaling" I am referring to in this context ..

    you are deliberately making a confusing and misleading statement that pve scaling of bugged enemies/ mobs / frequency and attacks (armor pen and counter stats ) and different areas vs just of scaling gear/enchantments/insignia /artifacts (for pvp ) to try making your point in order to shoot down ,mine ..

    (currently companions /insignia and artifacts are not counted for and scaled properly in lower level pve content either)

    ... pve scaling and pvp scaling are not the same thing nor would pvp scaling need all the pve elements..
    there is no bugged scaling NPCs / (critters as devs like to call them) .. attacking you in 5 v 5 pvp (or vice versa) ..thought with some new players ..it may feel like you are attacking bots

    everything was bugged in release of mod 16 whats your point they still went along with it and fixed it ..
    I dont see what your link shows or proves or how it adds to the conversation

    you just want to put "scaling" (and its early failure in mod 16 pve ) and blanket it for the whole game and areas into one jumbo word/ concept and have it do all the talking for ya in order to discredit my suggestion ..

    lol thats not how it works when having discussion with me bro .// When the devs introduce new content it can be / is bugged at first however that not a valid reason not to implement / continue work on it . and dismiss pvp scaling outright
    due to sloppy new mod 16 pve implementations / test runs / balancing

    you are just salty that they removed the companion bonuses from pvp lol to "scale it better" lolz : D
    and the devs did not listen to your misguided poor "advice"

    P.s and all your "proof" / input is a link to a known bugged Pve Tiamat Queue that they fixed ..or Queue that pugs have trouble with mechanics/ or need a better tutorial /guide / lol omg ..its the dragon breath wiping people ( not taking the stones ) not the mobs ,.. how much do you want them to scale down a damm dragon breath to 1% of players health in damage lol ..

    or perhaps your suggestions is they need a guide for pvp players just like tiamat should have one
    what and excellent suggestion + 1
    The bugs are still not fixed, tho. And mod 17 drops in 2 days.

    PvP and PVE are different? Really? Wow! Totally new concept. Herp de derp. You think that scaling against NPC enemies that have fixed stats and gear is going to be harder than scaling players, with large differences in gear and stats? Really?

    If you meant balance, instead of "scaling" then you should have said so. This is why words are important.

    If you are easily confused when comparing one thing with another thing, this is a not my problem situation.

    The fact that scaling is broken, not only in end-game content, but also in leveling content does not exactly make you suggestion stronger.

    The link shows that the problems in Tiamat are ongoing. This is not a thread from the beginning of mod
    16. This is a thread from last week, just before the drop of Mod 17.

    Yes, I do want to discredit your suggestion. Because scaling did not work in PVE. I don't want ideas that did not work to be used as the basis to try to fix PvP.

    I am not salty, because I don't care if they removed companions from PvP. Companions never had a place in PvP (outside of Icewind Dale). In fact companions are generally assumed to be the reason why SH Seige died. Removing Comp stats would make scaling easier, because it would remove one more variable from the equation. That still doesn't make it a good idea. Side Note: Personally, I would like to see a Comp vs. Comp arena, because that would just be fun. But I can't say I really trust the Devs to implement it properly, so.... nevermind.

    Again, this problem still existed last week. Not fixed. As for the stones, not all players load the instance before the dragon stones disappear. Even before Mod 16, it had been months since i was able to get one of those things. Another problem, was that the players that DID get the stones don't bother to use them, because they are beastly enuff not to be one shot by dragon breath. But these are problems with the mechanics. Not the scaling. The issue with the scaling is that even with the reduced number of clerics, it still takes too long to kill the attacking waves, and this will cause the timer to run out before Tiamat can be defeated.

    Yes, a guide for both PvP and Tiamat (and Demogorgon, and bank vault, and...) would be an excellent idea. That doesn't mean that scaling is...
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,899 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    You lost the argument the second you tried to put a Pve Tiamat link in Pvp thread to prove anything only discrediting yourself

    scaling in pve is broken because of complicated formulas .and whining players ..broken monsters etc

    try this pvp "pseudo scaling formula" everyone gets rank 10s ..and no higher then blue artifacts and blue insignia /..
    there is no pve "scaling/ balancing " to get wrong ..there are no bugs if everyone should have the same level of item enchantment ranked up or ranked down

    "PvP and PVE are different? Really? Wow! Totally new concept. Herp de derp. You think that scaling against NPC enemies that have fixed stats and gear is going to be harder than scaling players, with large differences in gear and stats? Really? "

    no it is the opposite bro it is easier to scale Pvp Characters and assign them the same level of enchants ,,... and have unscalled pro Q as Well for the big lockbox spenders / fully geared
    Post edited by kalina311 on
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 405 Arc User
    Comps bonuses still work. Only ioun stone of allure not working that I checked. Someone suggested maybe all healing comps are now "broken". Not sure. Tanks don't get their % HP bonus now, but energon works, 32k HP.
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