Random Queue Vote to Abandon Dungeon Rework?

vordayn · June 2019

The Abandon Dungeon Option happens way too often in Random Queues and wastes the time for people who are willing to keep trying.

I generally try to help out newer players to finish the dungeon even though it may take a few wipes to learn mechanics. Recently though, the last two RAQs I've been in one person initiates a Vote to Abandon and then the majority of people Vote Yes.

The majority rules is stupid for the one or two people who have invested a lot of time into the dungeon, in some cases up to an hour or more.

The other current option is that if people want to leave the dungeon, they can leave and take that 30 minute penalty. The alternative of a group wide 'Abandon Instance' is counterproductive as it forces the 1-2 hour sunken cost in the dungeon on those willing to continue.

A better option would be for those who vote 'Yes' to leave, and those who vote 'No' to remain in the instance in order for them to try to complete it.

vordayn · June 2019

double post

namelesshero347 · June 2019

vordayn said:
A better option would be for those who vote 'Yes' to leave, and those who vote 'No' to remain in the instance in order for them to try to complete it.

Then the Vote Abandon essentially becomes an Abandon Instance with no penalty. People will always use it first before the Abandon Instance and taking the penalty. It won't be used when it really should be used, like when there is no way a run can succeed unless a BiS or two come in and carry the rest. I get annoyed whenever I get pulled into one of these situation. The run has been going for over an hour and I'm thinking why the heck are these people still in here? Now I have to take a penalty.

greywynd · June 2019

You don't have to take the penalty. You could stay and try.

namelesshero347 · June 2019

In mod 15, I pugged ToNG enough times to have seen all the ways a run failed. All I needed was a quick inspect of the players and the leaderboard to know if the group was viable.

kangkeok · June 2019

Vote to abandon is an unnecessary option. People already has the option to leave or to stay. Its a stupid idea to let people vote for it as it forces other people that don't wanna leave to leave. That's so unfair.

b4t1b4t · June 2019

One should look at vote to abandon the instance like this. lets say your the tank or healer and you can already tell the group you are in is going to fail. You can leave but that means a new healer will join to fill your spot and if you know its a fail why put another healer thru this?
This same thing can be said from a tank or dps view.
Now I am not one to vote to abandon at the start but when you hit a boss and it fails 3 times over mechanics or low dps or what have you then vote to abandon is best. Why so that way the group doesnt waste any more time trying at something they may not be ready for to start with.
Sure RAQ is easy for some but it still comes down to the group able to do it and if a group isnt then yes the option is given.
I do not see it as a unnecessary option. I see it more as a option so the group i am in doesnt take a penalty nor waste time trying something the group isnt yet ready for.

vordayn · June 2019

namelesshero347 said:
In mod 15, I pugged ToNG enough times to have seen all the ways a run failed. All I needed was a quick inspect of the players and the leaderboard to know if the group was viable.

Nowadays in Mod 16, the quick inspect at the start of the RAQ dungeon sees all IL capped at 16,000. Unless you now spend time inspecting their weapon enchant, their artifacts, the max level of their enchants, the level of their companion, their stats (e.g. armor penetration, power) etc ... it is harder to see now what IL players are at in the beginning and hence gauge their capabilities.

I tend to give players the benefit of the doubt when I queue for a RAQ, and will try with a group at least to the boss(es) to see how we fare.

However, in my experience in trying to help groups finish a dungeon, I am actively discouraged from trying to do so now, because any one of them may vote to abandon, and with a majority vote they will force the minority of us to lose our time in the dungeon.

namelesshero347 said:

vordayn said:
A better option would be for those who vote 'Yes' to leave, and those who vote 'No' to remain in the instance in order for them to try to complete it.
Then the Vote Abandon essentially becomes an Abandon Instance with no penalty. People will always use it first before the Abandon Instance and taking the penalty. It won't be used when it really should be used, like when there is no way a run can succeed unless a BiS or two come in and carry the rest. I get annoyed whenever I get pulled into one of these situation. The run has been going for over an hour and I'm thinking why the heck are these people still in here? Now I have to take a penalty.

I see your point about entering a dungeon in which you might think it is a fail initially, but in my experience, the ones who are waiting to complete it are willing to learn the mechanics to defeat the dungeon. Plus, they are already at the end boss, you potentially have saved the time leading up to that boss. You can still leave and face a 30 minute penalty, but how is that different from doing so at the very start of the dungeon in which you said you already do so if you think it is a fail?

vordayn · June 2019

b4t1b4t said:
One should look at vote to abandon the instance like this. lets say your the tank or healer and you can already tell the group you are in is going to fail. You can leave but that means a new healer will join to fill your spot and if you know its a fail why put another healer thru this?
This same thing can be said from a tank or dps view.
Now I am not one to vote to abandon at the start but when you hit a boss and it fails 3 times over mechanics or low dps or what have you then vote to abandon is best. Why so that way the group doesnt waste any more time trying at something they may not be ready for to start with.
Sure RAQ is easy for some but it still comes down to the group able to do it and if a group isnt then yes the option is given.
I do not see it as a unnecessary option. I see it more as a option so the group i am in doesnt take a penalty nor waste time trying something the group isnt yet ready for.

The first time the Vote to Abandon annoyed me was when I was running an MSP in an RAQ as a healer. I was playing with some people who were not as strong as I would play if I formed the group myself, for example, with pre-formed groups, I could probably clear MSP in about 20-25 minutes.

We still made it to the final boss, but it was about 1.5 hours. After a few wipes, one player left, and then a new player came in. This new player, who was in for about 10 minutes and tried the final boss once, initiated the Vote to Abandon.

How does a new player with 10 minutes compared to about 1.5+ hours of playing of the other players have equal voting rights to quit the dungeon?

Just today, I spent about an hour in TONG, on my healer. We got through Orcus and Withers with no one dying, but our DPS was not as strong as it could be. After only TWO attempts at Ras Nsi, even with the Defiant Souls now supposedly having less HP, one of the players voted to abandon.

TWO attempts at the final boss, after an hour of playing, when I know we could have finished the final boss, and then being forced to leave it by others in my opinion, is not fair.

In the future, why should I even bother playing with complete strangers in a RQ if they could just pull the plug at any time, even if I am willing to invest in teaching them how to overcome the mechanics?

jules · June 2019

greywynd said:
You don't have to take the penalty. You could stay and try.

Oh yeah sure, I have the time to spend hours in a dungeon without hopes to succeed.
No, for real, why? For what rewards exactly would I want to spend over an hour in a dungeon?

I can see wanting to learn the mechanics, if there is some sort of communication about it. But often its senseless bosshitting-die-bosshitting on repeat.

If I spent some time in the dungeon I should be able to leave without a penalty whatsoever. The penalty should only punish people trying to choose their rq or similar annoying reasons.

Sure, get rid of the vote abandon. Rework queues altogether, because its a flawed system.
Half of the time I'm glad there is a Vote to Abandon, because I really don't wanna spend hours in some dungeons and randoms are... random. I'm not angry or moody at other players, sometimes it just doesn't work out, the group doesn't work out.
Get rid of the penalty after you spent some time actively playing the dungeon, shorten it, I don't know.
All I know is that if I have to leave and get a 30 min penalty that was my dungeon-running for the day. I log off.

E: I agree with the thought of "No"-Voters to stay, and "Yes"-Voters to leave. But if people want to learn mechanics and you are reaching out to them, why would they "pull the plug"?

vordayn · June 2019

jules#6770 said:

E: I agree with the thought of "No"-Voters to stay, and "Yes"-Voters to leave. But if people want to learn mechanics and you are reaching out to them, why would they "pull the plug"?

That's probably something that they would be better be able to tell you, rather than what I could assume.

Sometimes I have NFI why they voted to abandon, especially if it was only 2 attempts at the final boss after an hour of playing.

greywynd · June 2019

A vote to abandon should not be instigated without prior discussion.

jules · June 2019

greywynd said:
A vote to abandon should not be instigated without prior discussion.

In randoms, how often are you able to really communicate with all the players present?

greywynd · June 2019

You're in a closed instance. The only possible barrier would be language.

Or as Mr Spock said, "They are unable to respond or they are unwilling to respond."

mifiisu · June 2019

I do agree that those willing to stay in the party should be given the option to remain in the instance (or at least be automatically re-queued or sth), just as those who want to leave can always just leave and take the penalty (maybe argue for a shorter penalty after a failed vote to abandon instance?) ...but your priorities don't really invalidate the priorities of someone who finds that the dungeon is not worth their time - and if the majority of the party chooses to align with the either you or the player wanting to leave then, in essence, it is a democratic vote and should be respected. And if i'm not mistaken then the dialogue box pops in the respective language chosen by the player so it bypasses the language barrier or if someone is unable to communicate via voice chat or has the in-game chat disabled completely.

vordayn · June 2019

mifiisu said:
I do agree that those willing to stay in the party should be given the option to remain in the instance (or at least be automatically re-queued or sth), just as those who want to leave can always just leave and take the penalty (maybe argue for a shorter penalty after a failed vote to abandon instance?) ...but your priorities don't really invalidate the priorities of someone who finds that the dungeon is not worth their time - and if the majority of the party chooses to align with the either you or the player wanting to leave then, in essence, it is a democratic vote and should be respected. And if i'm not mistaken then the dialogue box pops in the respective language chosen by the player so it bypasses the language barrier or if someone is unable to communicate via voice chat or has the in-game chat disabled completely.

IIRC, the Vote to Abandon Instance didn't always exist. It was put in place because at one point in time, when dungeons were a lot buggier and unable to be completed, the instance would keep filling up with people even though everybody had left that dungeon. Thus, you had the scenario in which you were placed in a bugged dungeon, and had to leave and take a leaver penalty, yet that dungeon instance persisted to continue the cycle of trapping players. The Vote to Abandon feature thus allowed a bugged instance to be terminated by the players.

However, the way things work, the Vote to Abandon instance can now also be used in ways which were not predicted:

E.g. Players abandon an instance if deemed too hard by the majority of players near the start of the dungeon, not because it is bugged, and circumvents the need to take a leaver penalty. Thus, people can also 'pick and choose' which dungeons to play (albeit only being able to use it every 4 hours) negating the random element of RQs. A common example of this currently is Castle Ravenloft - some players dummy-fight the sisters and wait until the 15 minutes is up to Vote to Abandon. Usually though, someone takes the 30-minute penalty 'hit' so to speak, so that others can leave without penalty.

While bringing the topic of democracy in a game which exists in various countries with differing or varying forms of governance is politically fraught, the idea of a majority forcing opinions or actions on a minority is never a good thing, and vice versa. Democracy and Freedom go hand-in-hand, but are not necessarily the same thing.

Hence, what I was suggesting initially was a rework to allow those who wish to remain in the dungeon to be allowed to do so, while the others can opt to leave; this will not infringe on anyone's choice. Call it a "Vote to Leave" or something, and only those wishing to leave can do so without penalty.

Whether this also means taking a look at removing leaver penalties if an instance has been in play for already 30+ minutes or 1 hour or more, to allow those who enter to just leave without affecting the remaining party, it would only be a good thing for the players.

froger · June 2019

The easiest solution is to remove the leaver penalty after a player has been an instance for 15 minutes.

kangkeok · June 2019

b4t1b4t said:
One should look at vote to abandon the instance like this. lets say your the tank or healer and you can already tell the group you are in is going to fail. You can leave but that means a new healer will join to fill your spot and if you know its a fail why put another healer thru this?
This same thing can be said from a tank or dps view.
Now I am not one to vote to abandon at the start but when you hit a boss and it fails 3 times over mechanics or low dps or what have you then vote to abandon is best. Why so that way the group doesnt waste any more time trying at something they may not be ready for to start with.
Sure RAQ is easy for some but it still comes down to the group able to do it and if a group isnt then yes the option is given.
I do not see it as a unnecessary option. I see it more as a option so the group i am in doesnt take a penalty nor waste time trying something the group isnt yet ready for.

If u think it cant be done and decided to leave, why drag down those others who think otherwise? Lets not forget, its only your opinion that something its impossible. Why force it on others who think its possible? Are u sure the guy that replace u, gonna think the same way as u do? And what right do u have to decide for a him? Also, can u guarantee the next guy that replace u cant change the odds? or some weaker party member left after u and got replaced by a more capable one? Frankly, alot of things could change after u leave. Lets not assume everything and let other decide their choice.

vordayn said:
IIRC, the Vote to Abandon Instance didn't always exist. It was put in place because at one point in time, when dungeons were a lot buggier and unable to be completed, the instance would keep filling up with people even though everybody had left that dungeon. Thus, you had the scenario in which you were placed in a bugged dungeon, and had to leave and take a leaver penalty, yet that dungeon instance persisted to continue the cycle of trapping players. The Vote to Abandon feature thus allowed a bugged instance to be terminated by the players.

I think vote to abandon should be in GM Help option if its mean to solve dungeon trapping player issue.

mifiisu said:
I do agree that those willing to stay in the party should be given the option to remain in the instance (or at least be automatically re-queued or sth), just as those who want to leave can always just leave and take the penalty (maybe argue for a shorter penalty after a failed vote to abandon instance?) ...but your priorities don't really invalidate the priorities of someone who finds that the dungeon is not worth their time - and if the majority of the party chooses to align with the either you or the player wanting to leave then, in essence, it is a democratic vote and should be respected. And if i'm not mistaken then the dialogue box pops in the respective language chosen by the player so it bypasses the language barrier or if someone is unable to communicate via voice chat or has the in-game chat disabled completely.

It isn't about democratic value. Its about individual rights. When u buy a house that u like but all your neighbour dislike it. Do they vote to demolish your house? Even if its a democratic country u live in, there are certain laws that protect the people that even the government has to obey. Also, no one is invalidating anyone priorities. If u feel its not worth your time, u can just leave? The same can't be said with the voting system. People don't have the choice to stay. Also why bother with communication when we can just remove the vote to abandon system from the option list? Its not like people are gonna wait for u to type or sometime listen to u before they click the yes button.

namelesshero347 · June 2019

kangkeok said:

If u think it cant be done and decided to leave, why drag down those others who think otherwise? Lets not forget, its only your opinion that something its impossible. Why force it on others who think its possible? Are u sure the guy that replace u, gonna think the same way as u do? And what right do u have to decide for a him? Also, can u guarantee the next guy that replace u cant change the odds? or some weaker party member left after u and got replaced by a more capable one? Frankly, alot of things could change after u leave. Lets not assume everything and let other decide their choice.

After a few wipes at a boss, only the dimmest player will still think the run can succeed with the current group. The most equitable resolution then is for every one to leave without a penalty. But people are generally selfish. They don't want to leave empty handed. They want someone else to leave. So they wait it out. Even kick if needed to break a break the standoff. After the first person leaves, things can drastically change after that. Another weak player might take the opportunity to leave without a penalty or a BiS savior might show up.

namelesshero347 · June 2019

Now I don't believe the vote abandon should always be used. The most appropriate time would be after 15 minutes from start of the run if say the party is stuck at Orcus in ToNG, or after one one try in CoDG. Using the vote at the final boss may be okay if the person doing it was in the run from the beginning. But definitely, for someone who just showed up and hasn't sunk as much time in the run as other players, taking the penalty would be the polite thing to do.

kangkeok · June 2019

namelesshero347 said:

kangkeok said:

If u think it cant be done and decided to leave, why drag down those others who think otherwise? Lets not forget, its only your opinion that something its impossible. Why force it on others who think its possible? Are u sure the guy that replace u, gonna think the same way as u do? And what right do u have to decide for a him? Also, can u guarantee the next guy that replace u cant change the odds? or some weaker party member left after u and got replaced by a more capable one? Frankly, alot of things could change after u leave. Lets not assume everything and let other decide their choice.
After a few wipes at a boss, only the dimmest player will still think the run can succeed with the current group. The most equitable resolution then is for every one to leave without a penalty. But people are generally selfish. They don't want to leave empty handed. They want someone else to leave. So they wait it out. Even kick if needed to break a break the standoff. After the first person leaves, things can drastically change after that. Another weak player might take the opportunity to leave without a penalty or a BiS savior might show up.

Yup, vote kick is a better choice if no one want the penalty. I see no reason for vote abandon to exist except for bugged dungeon like vordayn said.

namelesshero347 · June 2019

kangkeok said:

Yup, vote kick is a better choice if no one want the penalty. I see no reason for vote abandon to exist except for bugged dungeon like vordayn said.

Kicking is fine if someone asked to be kicked. Problem is rarely I see people ask to be kicked because, surprise surprise, sunk time and they don't want to leave empty handed. The kick is usually started against the weakest player. Unless the player being kicked has been acting like a jerk, I always vote down the kick. If the kick succeeds, I quickly make my escape also. Otherwise I bring up the vote abandon. If the fails, then I take the penalty. I have no desire to finishing that run at that point anyway.

thefiresidecat · June 2019

froger#9967 said:
The easiest solution is to remove the leaver penalty after a player has been an instance for 15 minutes.

or even for cases like this half an hour.

imo there also needs to be a better system for people who sit at a campfire the entire match. after 2 minutes of inactivity the SYSTEM should boot the player. there shouldn't need to be a votekick.

mifiisu · June 2019

thefiresidecat said:

froger#9967 said:
The easiest solution is to remove the leaver penalty after a player has been an instance for 15 minutes.

or even for cases like this half an hour.

imo there also needs to be a better system for people who sit at a campfire the entire match. after 2 minutes of inactivity the SYSTEM should boot the player. there shouldn't need to be a votekick.

2 minutes is muuuuuuch too short

therealprotex · June 2019

vordayn said:
The Abandon Dungeon Option happens way too often in Random Queues and wastes the time for people who are willing to keep trying.

I generally try to help out newer players to finish the dungeon even though it may take a few wipes to learn mechanics. Recently though, the last two RAQs I've been in one person initiates a Vote to Abandon and then the majority of people Vote Yes.

The majority rules is stupid for the one or two people who have invested a lot of time into the dungeon, in some cases up to an hour or more.

The other current option is that if people want to leave the dungeon, they can leave and take that 30 minute penalty. The alternative of a group wide 'Abandon Instance' is counterproductive as it forces the 1-2 hour sunken cost in the dungeon on those willing to continue.

A better option would be for those who vote 'Yes' to leave, and those who vote 'No' to remain in the instance in order for them to try to complete it.

The scourge of the random queue. In my opinion, vote abandon instance is not different from the vote procedure in the Illusionist's Gambit skirmish. The majority decides. And as in the gambit, it should be common agreement that if you queue randomly, expect a premature abandon/leaving after bronze. If you want to be sure to finish the random queue/go for gold, enter it with a premade group.

In my experience, abandon instance is rarely chosen. In the vast majority of failing random queues that I joined, someone lost his patience and took the penalty. After the first one left, the random group is quickly dissolved.

demonmonger · June 2019

> @namelesshero347 said:
> A better option would be for those who vote 'Yes' to leave, and those who vote 'No' to remain in the instance in order for them to try to complete it.
>
> Then the Vote Abandon essentially becomes an Abandon Instance with no penalty. People will always use it first before the Abandon Instance and taking the penalty. It won't be used when it really should be used, like when there is no way a run can succeed unless a BiS or two come in and carry the rest. I get annoyed whenever I get pulled into one of these situation. The run has been going for over an hour and I'm thinking why the heck are these people still in here? Now I have to take a penalty.

We shouldnt have a penalty...

kangkeok · June 2019

therealprotex said:

vordayn said:
The Abandon Dungeon Option happens way too often in Random Queues and wastes the time for people who are willing to keep trying.

I generally try to help out newer players to finish the dungeon even though it may take a few wipes to learn mechanics. Recently though, the last two RAQs I've been in one person initiates a Vote to Abandon and then the majority of people Vote Yes.

The majority rules is stupid for the one or two people who have invested a lot of time into the dungeon, in some cases up to an hour or more.

The other current option is that if people want to leave the dungeon, they can leave and take that 30 minute penalty. The alternative of a group wide 'Abandon Instance' is counterproductive as it forces the 1-2 hour sunken cost in the dungeon on those willing to continue.

A better option would be for those who vote 'Yes' to leave, and those who vote 'No' to remain in the instance in order for them to try to complete it.
The scourge of the random queue. In my opinion, vote abandon instance is not different from the vote procedure in the Illusionist's Gambit skirmish. The majority decides. And as in the gambit, it should be common agreement that if you queue randomly, expect a premature abandon/leaving after bronze. If you want to be sure to finish the random queue/go for gold, enter it with a premade group.

In my experience, abandon instance is rarely chosen. In the vast majority of failing random queues that I joined, someone lost his patience and took the penalty. After the first one left, the random group is quickly dissolved.

Not everyone are accepted in the high requisite "premade" society. And most of the time, people rather have the system to match them a group while doing their dailies than doing nothing in PE/YP staring in chat. The most effective way is to go directly at the system. That way everyone benefit from it and not only for a certain group of people. I have to agree with vordayn suggestion, those who vote "Yes" to leave and "No" to remain in the instance.

froger · June 2019

thefiresidecat said:

froger#9967 said:
The easiest solution is to remove the leaver penalty after a player has been an instance for 15 minutes.

or even for cases like this half an hour.

imo there also needs to be a better system for people who sit at a campfire the entire match. after 2 minutes of inactivity the SYSTEM should boot the player. there shouldn't need to be a votekick.

2 minutes isn't enough time, injuries take time to heal. I agree there should be some type of timeout for a player to auto kick from inactivity.

My thought with 15 minutes is that is the time an instance has to be live to abandon. I'd like to see any player in an instance, regardless of how long the instance has been active, be able to leave after they have been in 15 minutes, without penalty. If leaving before the 15 minutes then a 30 minute penalty should apply. With this players may at least try to run the content. The vote abandon should still be an option, but there should be a minimum time a player is in the instance before they can put it up to vote.

dionchi · June 2019

As far as I'm concerned the only reason for a group to abandon a random queue is -

Because the instance is bugged and cannot be completed - at all...

Random queues already have the option for an individual player to leave a queue if they don't like it, think it's too hard or whatever.

Having a group of players (even a majority) consider the content "too hard" may be justification for that/those player(s) but a player who does not want to give up should not be held hostage to a group vote to quit even if it is from the majority of people in the party at that time.

Let each player who wants to leave - leave by the normal method and take the leaver penalty or everyone stays with the instance until it is completed. Staying is in my mind encouragement for players to do what is necessary to enhance and improve their characters and being able to leave an instance without a penalty not only removes some of the impetus to do what they need to do to improve their character but can tend to sorely inconvenience those players who would not have voted to abandon the instance.

¢¢

cherryman1 · June 2019

vordayn said:

mifiisu said:
I do agree that those willing to stay in the party should be given the option to remain in the instance (or at least be automatically re-queued or sth), just as those who want to leave can always just leave and take the penalty (maybe argue for a shorter penalty after a failed vote to abandon instance?) ...but your priorities don't really invalidate the priorities of someone who finds that the dungeon is not worth their time - and if the majority of the party chooses to align with the either you or the player wanting to leave then, in essence, it is a democratic vote and should be respected. And if i'm not mistaken then the dialogue box pops in the respective language chosen by the player so it bypasses the language barrier or if someone is unable to communicate via voice chat or has the in-game chat disabled completely.
IIRC, the Vote to Abandon Instance didn't always exist. It was put in place because at one point in time, when dungeons were a lot buggier and unable to be completed, the instance would keep filling up with people even though everybody had left that dungeon. Thus, you had the scenario in which you were placed in a bugged dungeon, and had to leave and take a leaver penalty, yet that dungeon instance persisted to continue the cycle of trapping players. The Vote to Abandon feature thus allowed a bugged instance to be terminated by the players.

However, the way things work, the Vote to Abandon instance can now also be used in ways which were not predicted:

E.g. Players abandon an instance if deemed too hard by the majority of players near the start of the dungeon, not because it is bugged, and circumvents the need to take a leaver penalty. Thus, people can also 'pick and choose' which dungeons to play (albeit only being able to use it every 4 hours) negating the random element of RQs. A common example of this currently is Castle Ravenloft - some players dummy-fight the sisters and wait until the 15 minutes is up to Vote to Abandon. Usually though, someone takes the 30-minute penalty 'hit' so to speak, so that others can leave without penalty.

While bringing the topic of democracy in a game which exists in various countries with differing or varying forms of governance is politically fraught, the idea of a majority forcing opinions or actions on a minority is never a good thing, and vice versa. Democracy and Freedom go hand-in-hand, but are not necessarily the same thing.

Hence, what I was suggesting initially was a rework to allow those who wish to remain in the dungeon to be allowed to do so, while the others can opt to leave; this will not infringe on anyone's choice. Call it a "Vote to Leave" or something, and only those wishing to leave can do so without penalty.

Whether this also means taking a look at removing leaver penalties if an instance has been in play for already 30+ minutes or 1 hour or more, to allow those who enter to just leave without affecting the remaining party, it would only be a good thing for the players.

The only problem with this is that your going to select to do the dungeon again and pull in new players and those same players are likely to try another RAQ again which could see the same players pulled into the same content again...

dionchi · June 2019

cherryman1 said:

vordayn said:

mifiisu said:
I do agree that those willing to stay in the party should be given the option to remain in the instance (or at least be automatically re-queued or sth), just as those who want to leave can always just leave and take the penalty (maybe argue for a shorter penalty after a failed vote to abandon instance?) ...but your priorities don't really invalidate the priorities of someone who finds that the dungeon is not worth their time - and if the majority of the party chooses to align with the either you or the player wanting to leave then, in essence, it is a democratic vote and should be respected. And if i'm not mistaken then the dialogue box pops in the respective language chosen by the player so it bypasses the language barrier or if someone is unable to communicate via voice chat or has the in-game chat disabled completely.
IIRC, the Vote to Abandon Instance didn't always exist. It was put in place because at one point in time, when dungeons were a lot buggier and unable to be completed, the instance would keep filling up with people even though everybody had left that dungeon. Thus, you had the scenario in which you were placed in a bugged dungeon, and had to leave and take a leaver penalty, yet that dungeon instance persisted to continue the cycle of trapping players. The Vote to Abandon feature thus allowed a bugged instance to be terminated by the players.

However, the way things work, the Vote to Abandon instance can now also be used in ways which were not predicted:

E.g. Players abandon an instance if deemed too hard by the majority of players near the start of the dungeon, not because it is bugged, and circumvents the need to take a leaver penalty. Thus, people can also 'pick and choose' which dungeons to play (albeit only being able to use it every 4 hours) negating the random element of RQs. A common example of this currently is Castle Ravenloft - some players dummy-fight the sisters and wait until the 15 minutes is up to Vote to Abandon. Usually though, someone takes the 30-minute penalty 'hit' so to speak, so that others can leave without penalty.

While bringing the topic of democracy in a game which exists in various countries with differing or varying forms of governance is politically fraught, the idea of a majority forcing opinions or actions on a minority is never a good thing, and vice versa. Democracy and Freedom go hand-in-hand, but are not necessarily the same thing.

Hence, what I was suggesting initially was a rework to allow those who wish to remain in the dungeon to be allowed to do so, while the others can opt to leave; this will not infringe on anyone's choice. Call it a "Vote to Leave" or something, and only those wishing to leave can do so without penalty.

Whether this also means taking a look at removing leaver penalties if an instance has been in play for already 30+ minutes or 1 hour or more, to allow those who enter to just leave without affecting the remaining party, it would only be a good thing for the players.
The only problem with this is that your going to select to do the dungeon again and pull in new players and those same players are likely to try another RAQ again which could see the same players pulled into the same content again...

Disallowing the "Abandon Instance" group vote and restricting the choices to players either deciding to stay or leave individually and take the leaver's penalty would take care of that...

People who quit get the probationary 'time out' and won't be immediately queuing for another random run.

Random Queue Vote to Abandon Dungeon Rework?

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