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Scaling isn't working right (image included) lower GS = higher stats?
x10110100
Member Posts: 69 Arc User
So I was grouped with this person in Spellplague (me 22k IL him 19k IL) and I noticed they were consistently doing around 20% more damage than me. Now of course there are class based differences and play style differences ect. But my weapon enchant was 4 ranks higher (me Vorpal them Fey Touched) and my bondings were 4 ranks higher(13 vs 9). So I decided to compare our stats, I only have these two screenshots I quickly took but trust me the unshown stats are equally confusing.
I know that in unscaled content my stats are much higher than theirs but in scaled content they have higher stats?
This can't be working as intended, right?
https://ibb.co/nfjHS22
Edited:
Just for the record, I am not mad that said person did more damage than me. The fact they were doing so much more damage than me was simply what caused me to compare.
I'm wondering why stats were assigned the way they were.
If anything this is meant to be a bug report.
I know that in unscaled content my stats are much higher than theirs but in scaled content they have higher stats?
This can't be working as intended, right?
https://ibb.co/nfjHS22
Edited:
Just for the record, I am not mad that said person did more damage than me. The fact they were doing so much more damage than me was simply what caused me to compare.
I'm wondering why stats were assigned the way they were.
If anything this is meant to be a bug report.
Post edited by x10110100 on
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This person has nearly double my defense and my critical strike, that can't be working as intended.
But, there is no reason they should have nearly double my stats regardless of IL.
If scaling was working correctly we should end up with similar stats/potential or the person with the higher IL having slightly more potential. That's not what happened here.
The items that are affected by scaling that I know of are: weapon enchantments, player enchantments, companion runestones, bonding runestones and some gear. In effect, these items are capped, so in a scaled level 70 zone, anything above e.g. R7-8 is capped. Hence a person with R7-8 enchants (including weapon enchantments) will be exactly the same as you. I've written it up here.
I'll leave you to figure out what isn't scaled (i.e. capped). Also, there may be a bug where people can summon multiple pets, enhancing their stats even further than normal, although I haven't worked that one out and really have no intention to.
From your pic, it doesn't look like his stats are too inflated, so I don't think he is using the multiple pet bug (intentionally or inadvertently). Rather, I think he is obtaining his critical chance from items which are not affected by scaling, which is entirely (legitimately) possible.
Apparently each individual item is scaled separately based on some formula possibly known by Cryptic, but more likely tossed in at random during the preview stage and left that way.
It might be interesting to compare your own stats, one with your current build, and one where you toss on a bunch of level 70 stuff, and see how much that gets scaled.
In total those items provide 2120 Critical Strike he had 26,243 more critical strike than me so where did the other 24,123 CS come from as well as the extra 28,830 defense?
You could easily have a differential of +20k of any stat with the correct choices of the items listed above.
For example, with a Black Dragon Ioun stone at Epic you get +6000 Crit, and a Legendary Pet you get +10,000 Crit. See here for companion bonuses.
Was this also a static screenshot? Sometimes certain mount bonuses will show up only when in use. Some Warlock powers also contribute to defense (infernal spheres comes to mind, though haven't tested if it shows up as a stat, or just works behind the scenes); I'm not sure about powers which contribute to critical strike however.
Plus, looking at both of your armor penetration stat, if you have the Stables Guild Boon, you could use this instead of power to optimise your Armor Pen before Power during scaled instances.
I personally think the way they scale is stupid, because it is more akin to blanket capping. It should be a progressive scaling method rather than a glass ceiling method.
I have a high-end build with 140K power and most stats (except CA) at, or near the cap. When I first got downscaled, I went from 69K ArPen to 27K. I had to set up a special "downscaled" logout where I shifted stuff around, and managed to get my offensive stats up to 53K or so ...good enough for the downscaled content
I wrote a long post about scaling issues here: https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/comment/13102337 (page 5, half-way down). As I said, I consider the design stupid, and my reaction is just to simply avoid any downscaled content except Challenge Campaigns, and have a special loadout for those).
And of course I understand there are mount insignias and companion bonuses but to assume my build is so utterly broken compared to his when I have more than 3k IL higher than his seems incorrect. But if you want to give the benefit of the doubt to the scaling system over my experience as a Caturday Survivor that's certainly an option.
P.S. This isn't an issue of who did more damage, I don't care about that. And the picture was taken while we were standing idle.
Your enchantments above Rank 8 are scaled to Rank 8 (even weapon enchantments). So just because you had "Vorpal 4 levels higher" means nothing because it becomes a Rank 8 enchantment. Your IL means little.
He has a better spread of stats because he seems to know which items are not scaled and is pumping up those stats instead.
Look to see what is or isn't scaled and you'll be able to work it out yourself.
And yes, your screenshot does not show the whole picture, and as @adinosii said, it doesn't mean that it is not WAI; even though I am not happy with the way things are scaled, that is how the devs are currently making it work.
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I'm not saying there might not be some bug there somewhere, but this is just how the design works, and what everyone is seeing.
It is working exactly as they envisioned (WAI), but this does not mean that their vision is "good" or "sensible"
Practically all players agree (and this is extremely rare) that their "vision" for scaling is outright stupid, kills progressions, is counter-intuitive, is essentially not predictable, etc. etc. etc.
You are baffled? We are too. But despite what the players say, Cryptic thinks its great.
They might change their mind, if they must (because sales and revenue drop dramatically).
I took my own character, with two sets of gear, Vistani(70) vs Red Feather(80), into the Neverdeath level 30 scaled area, and compared stats. Same mounts, same insignias etc etc. Some stats that started lower on one build got scaled higher than the other build. Some stats were different in the two builds, but got scaled to almost the exact same number. Etc.
So, just to be clear, the problem is an issue with the scaling. We're just pointing out that different things get scaled differently (level 70 gear vs 80 gear, in a 70 zone) for instance, and the other things (buffs, companion bonuses etc.), as a possible source of some of the difference.
Certainly, in my mind, having two roughly similar characters end up where the one with the lesser gear has higher stats and does more damage, is clear evidence that scaling is broken. However, until 50,000 players prove this to Cryptic by leaving for other games, apparently solid evidence does not mean any such thing to them. As far as they are concerned, scaling is a success and working to achieve whatever cryptic goals they meant it to.
I mean, what strategic value, really, is there in saying "Now that you are higher level and have gotten better gear, we are going to make old content harder for you than it originally was. Or than it is for a lower char with lesser gear. Because lower players should outperform higher players in lower content."
This is pretty much an insane view of character progression, and achieves no actual gameplay or player value, and actually hurts Cryptic's own business model by discouraging progression and decreasing the relative value of doing things like upgrading your enchantments.
But TBH, that sort of decision making is nothing new at Cryptic.
Scaling is working as intended, let me try to explain this...
You have level 80 gear and that gear provides X stats. Well long term we will get more level 80 gear with higher stats and that means the current level 80 gear is probably closer to level 65 gear when in level 70 zones, making current level 80 gear in about 90% of the content available to player worth less than level 70 gear. Therefore if you can achieve the stats needed for level 80 content with level 70 gear do so as you will not be hindered as bad when going into level 70 zones.
Now onto enchantments, like level 80 gear our enchantments, even at max ranking are not the true maximum long term we will get from level 80 content. Therefore we are being penalized now for having maxing out our character enchantments and runestones in level 70 content.
Scaling simply takes away the enjoyment players get from building up their character and seeing improvement. Scaling is worst IMO than stat clamping. Stat clamping has also a negative feeling to it as once you surpass a specific zone allowed stat you cannot raise your stats in that zone no matter what you do. Clamping at least allows players the ability to max out stat without the fear of scaling coming into play and impacting them negatively do to long term plans of the game vs. the game current state.
I rather the devs simply remove scaling to see how it impacts the game. Removing scaling, even if for a short time, would allow PC players to check out content and see how the game plays without all the buffs and debuffs. The removal of those alone should help the game out and make content a bit more challenging.
Another thing to consider is reducing the stats we get from the gear, this would improve the need to use multi-stat enchantments.
From what I can tell the devs don't play the game and any code developed seems to lack proper testing to ensure it is working.
If this mess hits console there will be a bigger exist of player and the bottom line is that Cryptic will be impacted financially if scaling is not resolved before mod 16 hits consoles.
I actually do understand what the problem is I was just highlighting how it's working in game. I understand it's caused by the fact that items aren't scaled correctly and I think most of the people who seemingly disagree with me actually agree that the current system is broken. In no real situation should Player A go in with higher base stats than Player B but end up with lower stats when scaled. I also understand that according to Cryptic this is WAI.
Perhaps when I originally said "This can't be working as intended, right?" I should have been more clear and not sarcastic.
If [Player A] has 100 stat X at level 80 and [Player B] has 50 stat X at level 70 they should both have 75'ish Stat X or [Player A] should have 80'ish and [Player B] should have 70'ish.
Heck I would even prefer a simplified cap system.
Not like now where [Player A] has 100 [Player B] has 50 and they end up with [Player A] at 25 and [Player B] at 75 (because he used an unscaled item).
I also agree that this is counter productive, this situation doesn't "feel good" it doesn't make me want to play more it makes me want to play less and if you have a person with less investment outperforming someone with greater investment doesn't really encourage either people to want to invest more.
For instance if your level 80 have all of your stats capped or over capped in some situations. Then when you go to WoD , I would think your stats would be scaled down to the high end cap of that content.
Am I wrong for thinking that the scaling should work like this??