Divinity Justicar vs Oathkeeper

excalibur1980 · May 2019

Divinity in justicar have a high cost versus Oathkeeper, and regen takes to long, Justicar divinity cost 220/300 in encounter power, in oathkeeper 80/100/120. Why? Pali tank it's now a not playable paragon.

majorcharvenak · May 2019

Oh for the love of the gods! This thread has all the makings of an intra-class flame war. The lower divinity cost on the encounters for the Oathkeeper does NOT make the Justicar an unplayable paragon. There are sound reasons for that difference. Chief among them are the larger number of divinity requiring powers the Oathkeeper has available. Powers that do little than heal and raise barriers and the cost is somewhat in line with the other healing classes cost to use their abilities in relation to their DPS paragon counterparts. Not saying that the Justicar couldn't be improved, just saying the divinity disparity isn't the reason the path maybe wanting in areas.

silverkelt · May 2019

nonetheless.. its really really boring to play justicar. Its like watching paint dry and water boil and the dryest lecture all at once.

bad design .. complaints all around with new mod and slowness and boring design combined. But that particular path has to be the worst of all of them.

majorcharvenak · May 2019

That's a different issue and like you state @silverkelt, one that infects almost all the classes when compared with their pre-mod 16 counterparts. If the thread topic was "The class is boring with combat not being as smooth as before" or "The tanking abilities are not suitable to allow effective tanking" I'd agree with the statement that it makes the paragon unplayable. Comparing the divinity costs between the paragons, each with different roles, and saying that makes one them unplayable is a little ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that unless the oathkeeper locks themselves into a certain feat, their damaging encounters that require divinity cost the same to cast as a justicar anyway. Like I said before, if you want to compare tank to tank gameplay and make the determination that its unplayable that's fine. If you want to compare pre to post mod 16 pally combat gameplay, that's fine too. But comparing the divinity cost between the two different paragons with two different roles makes little sense. My two coppers.

obsidiancran3 · May 2019

lol <- My two coppers.

Stack Radiants, use an Augment (blue or better) and get your stats to 70k. Get Titansteel or Alabaster weapons. Go crush stuff.

Stop spamming Divinity Powers.

Stop running 2 or more Divinity Powers.

Don’t compare the paragons. They have different roles with different needs.

majorcharvenak · May 2019

obsidiancran3 said:
lol <- My two coppers.

Stack Radiants, use an Augment (blue or better) and get your stats to 70k. Get Titansteel or Alabaster weapons. Go crush stuff.

Stop spamming Divinity Powers.

Stop running 2 or more Divinity Powers.

Don’t compare the paragons. They have different roles with different needs.

Yeah. What he said.

mynaam · May 2019

obsidiancran3 said:
Go crush stuff.

Sadly that is why Pally is a fail in mod 16 they are tanks or healers and should not be able to "crush stuff". I would not be surprised if we have a nerf incoming

majorcharvenak · May 2019

Umm...No. Considering how far all the classes are now on the damage scale when compared with what we all were, I think we've been nerfed enough.

leonidrex · May 2019

majorcharvenak said:
Umm...No. Considering how far all the classes are now on the damage scale when compared with what we all were, I think we've been nerfed enough.

dont know about you but i can use daily every 5s, preety broken

majorcharvenak · May 2019

leonidrex said:

majorcharvenak said:
Umm...No. Considering how far all the classes are now on the damage scale when compared with what we all were, I think we've been nerfed enough.
dont know about you but i can use daily every 5s, preety broken

Umm...again...NO! You folks seem to forget that this crew has a tendency to over-nerf when the nerf bat gets swung at a class. Also, I don't know your set up for that kind of AP gain is @leonidrex but I'm lucky if I enough to fire off one in less than a minute. Please share. Pre-mod 16, I'd believe you but mod-16, sorry I don't. And what the heck does either the damage dealt or AP gain have to do with this original topic of the perceived disparity between the Justicar and the Oathkeeper with regards to divinity cost anyway?

leonidrex · May 2019

majorcharvenak said:

leonidrex said:

majorcharvenak said:
Umm...No. Considering how far all the classes are now on the damage scale when compared with what we all were, I think we've been nerfed enough.
dont know about you but i can use daily every 5s, preety broken
Umm...again...NO! You folks seem to forget that this crew has a tendency to over-nerf when the nerf bat gets swung at a class. Also, I don't know your set up for that kind of AP gain is @leonidrex but I'm lucky if I enough to fire off one in less than a minute. Please share. Pre-mod 16, I'd believe you but mod-16, sorry I don't. And what the heck does either the damage dealt or AP gain have to do with this original topic of the perceived disparity between the Justicar and the Oathkeeper with regards to divinity cost anyway?

shield is broken or something, dont care anymore to test that stuff. as for prot vs devo. if you get daily every 5s you dont need a healer, since you can spam heroism to get 20% max hp back every time, and use BO to get 80% stamina back. preety much allows for extra dps. meaning prot>devo untill the ap gain gets fixed/nerfed whatever.

majorcharvenak · May 2019

leonidrex said:

majorcharvenak said:

leonidrex said:

majorcharvenak said:
Umm...No. Considering how far all the classes are now on the damage scale when compared with what we all were, I think we've been nerfed enough.
dont know about you but i can use daily every 5s, preety broken
Umm...again...NO! You folks seem to forget that this crew has a tendency to over-nerf when the nerf bat gets swung at a class. Also, I don't know your set up for that kind of AP gain is @leonidrex but I'm lucky if I enough to fire off one in less than a minute. Please share. Pre-mod 16, I'd believe you but mod-16, sorry I don't. And what the heck does either the damage dealt or AP gain have to do with this original topic of the perceived disparity between the Justicar and the Oathkeeper with regards to divinity cost anyway?
shield is broken or something, dont care anymore to test that stuff. as for prot vs devo. if you get daily every 5s you dont need a healer, since you can spam heroism to get 20% max hp back every time, and use BO to get 80% stamina back. preety much allows for extra dps. meaning prot>devo untill the ap gain gets fixed/nerfed whatever.

If you're talking about the shield/stamina thing then I wouldn't notice as I don't have that problem on the devo. With respect to heroism. Yes, I'm certain you wouldn't need a healer if you can spam that every 5 sec but that's if its not draining your AP completely. Again, I would love it if you would share any other means of getting AP recovery that fast. As for binding oath restoring stamina...don't need it. Most of the time I don't even need to block on the devo actually as the barriers provide more than enough protection. As for the last part...well it sounds as if you just proven the OP's argument to be invalid since it appears that prots can get through the content without much difficulty making it a viable paragon path.

obsidiancran3 · May 2019

> @mynaam said:
> Go crush stuff.
>
>
>
> Sadly that is why Pally is a fail in mod 16 they are tanks or healers and should not be able to "crush stuff". I would not be surprised if we have a nerf incoming

Ahm the gap between Paladin crushing stuff and a DPS doing the same is plain and apparent if you have the same level of gear on both.

But the inability to do damage has more to do with stats than it does the class.

(& I’m the person that argued Smite should be nerfed in Preview...)

akuarmoton · May 2019

AP gain is surely broken, I usually can use daily atleast 3 times in every boss fight when doing my ME's.

majorcharvenak · May 2019

Then its up to the devs to fix and doesn't really apply to the topic of this thread which was the OP (who hasn't commented further btw) comparing the differences in divinity costs between the justicar and the oathkeeper. Then he states that the Justicar is not a playable paragon because of it. Which isn't true since both paragons have completely separate roles and responsibilities. If the justicar isn't playable because of both the stamina bug and an AP gain bug, that's a different issue and should be addressed in its own thread.

leonidrex · May 2019

majorcharvenak said:
Then its up to the devs to fix and doesn't really apply to the topic of this thread which was the OP (who hasn't commented further btw) comparing the differences in divinity costs between the justicar and the oathkeeper. Then he states that the Justicar is not a playable paragon because of it. Which isn't true since both paragons have completely separate roles and responsibilities. If the justicar isn't playable because of both the stamina bug and an AP gain bug, that's a different issue and should be addressed in its own thread.

i suspect what he means is that as justiccar you use smite/bane to deal dmg and grab aggro, it cost shitton of divinity and divinity regen is tragic, oathsomething paladin doesnt have this problem since healing ccosts almost no divinity.

rafaelda · May 2019

theres a feat that give you a small chance for a free Bane, that helps with the divinity cost control

Also you guys are forgetting that the feat that lower the cost for bane and Smite also drops the dmg of the same powers
Yes is better in cost efect but not better for dps since you have to hit twice to get the same dmg...

I can bring more dmg as tank (only feel this on big mobs of boss fights) but i can survive on both builds,
I have to admit i find healer pacth is more fun to play but thats is Personal taste

For being slower than dps classes, is is true, but it should be they are dps in then end,
Take fighter for a ride on each patch tank is much slow to solo than dps patch...

The day a Tank or healer patch reach the the same dps as a dps patch you need to buff the dps (or criptic tactic nerf the tank/healer)..

majorcharvenak · May 2019

leonidrex said:

majorcharvenak said:
Then its up to the devs to fix and doesn't really apply to the topic of this thread which was the OP (who hasn't commented further btw) comparing the differences in divinity costs between the justicar and the oathkeeper. Then he states that the Justicar is not a playable paragon because of it. Which isn't true since both paragons have completely separate roles and responsibilities. If the justicar isn't playable because of both the stamina bug and an AP gain bug, that's a different issue and should be addressed in its own thread.
i suspect what he means is that as justiccar you use smite/bane to deal dmg and grab aggro, it cost shitton of divinity and divinity regen is tragic, oathsomething paladin doesnt have this problem since healing ccosts almost no divinity.

Umm...Unless you take that feat, the divinity cost for bane and smite are the same on both paragons. Also, more of the oathkeeper's encounters are divinity based and even one of the at-wills is divinity based and it can all add up. Couple that with the fact that nearly all of the justicar's abilities do some form of damage where as the oathkeeper's specific encounters either heal or perform some form of utility and that's where you're comparing apples and oranges. Justicars have more damage/aggro gen based abilities for tanking, oathkeeper has heals to keep the team alive and for damage mitigation.

See...This is what I meant when I said the original post has all the makings of a intra-class flame war in my first response on this thread. If there are problems with the justicar and its ability to tank or its damage or survivability - make a separate/specific post. Doing apples to oranges comparisons between the two paragons just fosters an us/them mentality which only seems to get sated when the devs come in and break something on the other "offending" paragon. It's not needed and shouldn't be welcomed.

leonidrex · May 2019

majorcharvenak said:

leonidrex said:

majorcharvenak said:
Then its up to the devs to fix and doesn't really apply to the topic of this thread which was the OP (who hasn't commented further btw) comparing the differences in divinity costs between the justicar and the oathkeeper. Then he states that the Justicar is not a playable paragon because of it. Which isn't true since both paragons have completely separate roles and responsibilities. If the justicar isn't playable because of both the stamina bug and an AP gain bug, that's a different issue and should be addressed in its own thread.
i suspect what he means is that as justiccar you use smite/bane to deal dmg and grab aggro, it cost shitton of divinity and divinity regen is tragic, oathsomething paladin doesnt have this problem since healing ccosts almost no divinity.
Umm...Unless you take that feat, the divinity cost for bane and smite are the same on both paragons. Also, more of the oathkeeper's encounters are divinity based and even one of the at-wills is divinity based and it can all add up. Couple that with the fact that nearly all of the justicar's abilities do some form of damage where as the oathkeeper's specific encounters either heal or perform some form of utility and that's where you're comparing apples and oranges. Justicars have more damage/aggro gen based abilities for tanking, oathkeeper has heals to keep the team alive and for damage mitigation.

See...This is what I meant when I said the original post has all the makings of a intra-class flame war in my first response on this thread. If there are problems with the justicar and its ability to tank or its damage or survivability - make a separate/specific post. Doing apples to oranges comparisons between the two paragons just fosters an us/them mentality which only seems to get sated when the devs come in and break something on the other "offending" paragon. It's not needed and shouldn't be welcomed.

this is not what i have ment, if you want you can slot all 3 diviniti cost powers but why? slot only heal, rest normal cooldown powers, and you can just spam heal for 30s nonstop. Both Smite and Bane are HAMSTER design. Prevent you from doing more then 1 thing. If you go justicar you tank with aggro powers, or try to deal dmg to grab aggro, with good dps only first option is good, thus you only get smacked. As oathsomething you cant use heal and smite becouse divinity is for healing for the spec and smite not only tugs away at the resources that might be needed, it also gets HAMSTER and HAMSTER the less div you have. Entire idea of Divinity is tragic. There is no reason whatsoever to have it in the game but its not going away. artificially made handicap so that the class can never evolve or improve.

majorcharvenak · May 2019

leonidrex said:

majorcharvenak said:

leonidrex said:

majorcharvenak said:
Then its up to the devs to fix and doesn't really apply to the topic of this thread which was the OP (who hasn't commented further btw) comparing the differences in divinity costs between the justicar and the oathkeeper. Then he states that the Justicar is not a playable paragon because of it. Which isn't true since both paragons have completely separate roles and responsibilities. If the justicar isn't playable because of both the stamina bug and an AP gain bug, that's a different issue and should be addressed in its own thread.
i suspect what he means is that as justiccar you use smite/bane to deal dmg and grab aggro, it cost shitton of divinity and divinity regen is tragic, oathsomething paladin doesnt have this problem since healing ccosts almost no divinity.
Umm...Unless you take that feat, the divinity cost for bane and smite are the same on both paragons. Also, more of the oathkeeper's encounters are divinity based and even one of the at-wills is divinity based and it can all add up. Couple that with the fact that nearly all of the justicar's abilities do some form of damage where as the oathkeeper's specific encounters either heal or perform some form of utility and that's where you're comparing apples and oranges. Justicars have more damage/aggro gen based abilities for tanking, oathkeeper has heals to keep the team alive and for damage mitigation.

See...This is what I meant when I said the original post has all the makings of a intra-class flame war in my first response on this thread. If there are problems with the justicar and its ability to tank or its damage or survivability - make a separate/specific post. Doing apples to oranges comparisons between the two paragons just fosters an us/them mentality which only seems to get sated when the devs come in and break something on the other "offending" paragon. It's not needed and shouldn't be welcomed.
this is not what i have ment, if you want you can slot all 3 diviniti cost powers but why? slot only heal, rest normal cooldown powers, and you can just spam heal for 30s nonstop. Both Smite and Bane are HAMSTER design. Prevent you from doing more then 1 thing. If you go justicar you tank with aggro powers, or try to deal dmg to grab aggro, with good dps only first option is good, thus you only get smacked. As oathsomething you cant use heal and smite becouse divinity is for healing for the spec and smite not only tugs away at the resources that might be needed, it also gets HAMSTER and HAMSTER the less div you have. Entire idea of Divinity is tragic. There is no reason whatsoever to have it in the game but its not going away. artificially made handicap so that the class can never evolve or improve.

If you're saying divinity stinks and the class as a whole is a divinity sink, I agree. I'd much rather have persistant passive heals/heals over time and encounters with much lower cooldowns for damage, damage mitigation, aggro, etc. Unfortunately this is what we have to work with and isn't what the OP originally posted; which is what I've been arguing about.

leonidrex · May 2019

@excalibur1980 to answar your question. Smite and bane has to cost more then healing powers becouse. 1 Damage has to be weaker then healing. or it creates inbalance. 2 Smite and Bane provide 2 positive things for Justicar, Damage AND aggro, making power budged bigger. 3 Heals provide 2 positive things ( heal and shield ) while providing 1 negative, aggro.

But the thing remains as always with healing vs damage, you can give too much healing and its always fine, becouse in the end you 1 live or 2 die, nothing inbetween. if i can keep someone alive as healer, making me heal 10x more changes nothing, outcome is the same. But for damage dealer, increasing its damage will improve aggro management, clearspeed, and allow bursting throught encounters to ignore divinity compleatly.

Short answear, you can go safly overboard with making healing strong, but you cant do the same for damage.
and divinity is stupid idea implemented poorly as to make healing even stronger. If anything its the healing powers that should be weaker the more you spam it, not damage.

majorcharvenak · May 2019

Almost two weeks since the original post and nothing from the op.

Divinity Justicar vs Oathkeeper

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