Players does not respect mmorpg mechanics

dolrey · May 2019

Here I would like to give short feedback about current state of random PvE (without playing in premade groups of your guild mates or friends etc).

Have you ever played other mmos? There everybody waiting for their tank before starting to attack. Because otherwise they will die. And death in other mmos has relatively high penalty (loosing exp or wasting a lot of money for repairing your gear).

So what we see in NWO? After years of content easy as abc players just don't know anything about these easy rules of teamplay in dungeons at all. Players just roll in before tank (and it still works). Players does not focus monster wich tank strike (and it still works). Players doesn't dodge red zones (and it still works; well.. except some oneshoting aoe of some bosses).

Yes there are some broken dungeons (such as temple of tiamat wich will be fixed soon) but if something goes wrong in NOT BROKEN dungeon players just don't want to start to follow these rules. If they die in dungeons (doing unbeliavable strange things let's call them so) they just come at this forum and start asking for nerfs of monsters..

When you will enter your next dungeon please ask youself "is everything what does my team right?" Answer will be "no".

So in this thread I would like to ask developers to forse players to play by easy rules of dungeon teamplay wich every mmo player knows. By difficulty by death penalty or by something else just do it. Thank you.

Ps: I am not boasting here like look how hardcore player I am. No. I am usual player as you. And I just want to play normal content without circus allowed for many players.

lantern22 · May 2019

I bet your loving the scaling, its the kind of pain and suffering you've been wanting for years.

I'd like to see some tiered dungeons, so those that want a really hard experience can get it (with appropriate rewards) and casual players still have an easy enough version.

I do like seeing DPS get nailed whenrunning in front of the tank, standing in red etc.

However, I don't like going back to content that is years old and its being made artificially difficult, that is not part of normal D&D progression.

minotaur2857 · May 2019

lantern22 said:
I bet your loving the scaling, its the kind of pain and suffering you've been wanting for years.

I'd like to see some tiered dungeons, so those that want a really hard experience can get it (with appropriate rewards) and casual players still have an easy enough version.

I do like seeing DPS get nailed whenrunning in front of the tank, standing in red etc.

However, I don't like going back to content that is years old and its being made artificially difficult, that is not part of normal D&D progression.

Exactly, being level drained 4-6 levels which is what it feels like in a D&D context is not fun.

I agree with the OP's point that not waiting for the tank is annoying.

The problem the OP never sees is that he is in a TINY minority in this community in wanting content that is hard enough to challenge him (and I bet his gear and skills are way beyond most). An awful lot of us play for relaxation and enjoy just facerolling stuff. The game needs to accommodate both typs of players.

adinosii · May 2019

Well, quite frankly, Mod 15 was way, way too easy for many players No thought was required, and basically being in "easy mode" isn't fun for everyone.

This is a reason why I loved the Tarokka card design in Ravenloft .... you could increase the difficulty to the point where even a BiS group of experienced players would face a serious challenge (with Donjon and a couple of other special cards at the same time). They attempted to do the same in Mod 16 with the Crystallized resonances in MEs, and while the implementation is flawed (even at max difficulty it is too easy for a high-end group), the basic idea is good.

So, for some people Mod 16 with additional challenges is more fun that before - however, other players disagree, because of the fundamental problems with the way scaling is implemented.

If you level up in a scaling zone, your stats may go down. You are in effect being punished for progressing
With things like R10 and R15 enchants being capped down to the same level, the motivation to improve gear is really, really reduced. Why bother getting to BiS if you will just be made equal to someone with barely mediocre gear? I mean, is this a fantasy game or a Swedish tax system simulation?
The aggressive scaling makes low-level content harder than high-end content for a L80 player. This is just wrong.

This is a game, and it is supposed to be fun. Take away the fun for some people and you take away their motivation to play.

Unknown · May 2019

This content has been removed.

aratech · May 2019

adinosii said:
Well, quite frankly, Mod 15 was way, way too easy for many players No thought was required, and basically being in "easy mode" isn't fun for everyone.

This is a reason why I loved the Tarokka card design in Ravenloft .... you could increase the difficulty to the point where even a BiS group of experienced players would face a serious challenge (with Donjon and a couple of other special cards at the same time). They attempted to do the same in Mod 16 with the Crystallized resonances in MEs, and while the implementation is flawed (even at max difficulty it is too easy for a high-end group), the basic idea is good.

So, for some people Mod 16 with additional challenges is more fun that before - however, other players disagree, because of the fundamental problems with the way scaling is implemented.
If you level up in a scaling zone, your stats may go down. You are in effect being punished for progressing
With things like R10 and R15 enchants being capped down to the same level, the motivation to improve gear is really, really reduced. Why bother getting to BiS if you will just be made equal to someone with barely mediocre gear? I mean, is this a fantasy game or a Swedish tax system simulation?
The aggressive scaling makes low-level content harder than high-end content for a L80 player. This is just wrong.
This is a game, and it is supposed to be fun. Take away the fun for some people and you take away their motivation to play.

Also, if you level up in a scaled quest/zone/etc. You will be unable to use any powers you may have unlocked during said level up until you leave that zone or complete that mission. Because the game will refuse to recognize your level being, say, actually 74, and will keep you from being able to use fireball, despite the fact that you have legitimately just earned it....

Addendum, because I am a petty, vindictive little hamster to the point that Boo himself might think there's something wrong with me, I will never miss an opportunity to point out the idiocy of capping Rank 15 enchantments down to Rank 10s. This is a Free To Play game, with all the economy that implies. In order to get those rank 15s, a player must sink hundreds of dollars worth of real world money (or an in-game grind equivalent or be blessed by the RNGs to the extent that they are some kind of patron saint). You, the Devs, have just made that utterly meaningless. That is hundreds of thousands of dollars you have just excised from your coffers, because people won't buy the wards necessary to accomplish that (or the Rank 5/6/7/etc. potency marks that are necessary to remove AD from the economy).

You set out to create a blatantly pay-to-win game, and you somehow managed to bork even *that* up. That really is something amazing...

schietindebux · May 2019

In other mmos
1. the tank is not two hittet by trashmobs, and his shield is not depleted in 1 second, not refreshing over most parts of the fight
2. tanks are able to hold aggro and control fights
3. Healers are able to heal the party and support and are not an aggromagnet that kites 90% of the mobs in circles
4. mobs are not 2 times faster than the player and can do jump attacks out of nowhere, same as doing cc attacks in split seconds -> some mobs in leveling zone "Kua to hunter" jump back throw their net and pull you in in 0.5 seconds or less
5. you are not set against trashmobs with a toothpick in your hand, them having 2 million HP+ impossible to take down (endboss TONG), by that overwhelmed by mobs, that on top spread cc and knockback in a row, no way to "step not" into red zones, 2. boss is near unplayble due to perma cc effects, that proc all time
6. your char is not split in half, unable to reach the cap for almost all stats, even having rank 15th enchants, a legendary mount, near optimal gear etc.
30 more points to list...
end of the line, biggest part of playerbase is unable to play those dungeons they did in mod 15 and maybe 100% can´t solve actual TONG

Who ever thinks that NWO in it´s actual state is enjoyable, where level 70 content like MSP, CR, CODG, TONG is still unplayble to some degree even after fixes, lives on another planet !
This is not about player unable to follow simple rules of a game this is about a mod that is not enjoyable outside of the leveling areas and the new implented content.

PS: queued random today RAQ
1. abandoned CR at 2. boss
2. abandoned CR at first boss
3. abandoned CR at 3. boss (all of them 20 death+ 1hour50)
4. abandoned CODG (many death, 1hour)
some may say , "scrubs unable to learn content", but that´s BS
yesterday a MSP was a real pain at endboss, group was unable to kill tentakle same as spawned fire in time, no way in a moderate group without bugged power to absolve this dungeon, 110% not enjoyable
This cryptic is the actual state of the game. I am pretty sure these player are more than clueless, what you expect from the average player in this game, wich is not know to be a destination for hardcore player.

rikitaki · May 2019

I think the scaling system brought the game closer to the reality. When you pass 70, each additional level is noticeable burden, no matter what trinkets you wear or how many potions you drink you simply can't perform that well any more. And when you reach 80, the situation is borderline bearable and suddenly you succumb even to some little things that you would have hardly even noticed when you were younger...

Unknown · May 2019

This content has been removed.

regenerde · May 2019

I'm curious, how do you "adapt" to getting hammered with HAMSTER from a whole group of enemies?
You can't outrun them anymore, you can't dodge everything, so what else can you do?

The cooldowns (or rather the "resource management") for player abilities has become crazy, while NPCs can spam their HAMSTER within seconds without any real visible "downtime" for them.

That's not balance and it sure as hell isn't fun to play... and the last time i checked this was still a game.

And i'm not even talking about skirmishes or dungeons here, i'm talking about the regular solo content. If i'm having problems getting through the content with all the options at my disposal after years of playing the game, what do you think will new players do after getting HAMSTER like this thrown at them?

Most vet. players are probably not going to support this unholy mess with their money anymore, and i doubt that new players are going to toss money at the game in the current state either, so who is going to keep the games cash box filled?

You?

Because at the end of the day it all boils down to money and how to encourage or motivate players to spend it here.

hypervoreian · May 2019

dolrey said:

Some words about tanking first.
1) Probably you had not so good at tanking tank. If somebody was top tactician in m15 it doesn't mean that he is good tank (because calling tactician tank is just a joke). Now bis tank at lvl 80 without scaling should have 675+khp and relatively well equipped tank should have about 570khp (having ~25% passive damage mitigation and overcap of defence as well). Item level is not important. Only these stats make tank from your "tank". In 70 lvl dungeons it still will be 450+khp and 57+k def. Does your tank have so? If not then reason why he die too fast is evident. He just did not prepared to new mod and that it all.

2) First I had troubles with aggro too. Yes tanks no longer have one button to taunt all dungeon. But ways to 100% hold aggro on yourself still exist. I wrote guide about aggro in m16 in one of social webs in russian where I described these mechanics. But it will take too much time to translate it. So you only have to believe my word that tank can hold aggro using some of his features in right combination.

And small question here: are you sure that no one rushes forward before tank? Because as tank player I can say that of course then tank will have troubles with aggro. If somebody intentionally shoot in his own leg it is not fault of medics. If somebody intentionally roll in before tank it is not fault of tank that he can't hold aggro well.

3) Some healers can't heal while some heal very very well. Looks like it depends on player.

4) All mobs are on tank. So dds and heal should not care about their jumps etc

5) Yes some top dungeons are almoust uncompletable with random team. But it was same and in m15 wasn't it? Many players just still haven't adapted their build or playstile to m16. Prepared playrs deal much much more damage and survive much longer.

" Now bis tank at lvl 80 without scaling should have 675+khp "
Since you are near or BIs,care you to post us your character pic showing 675k+ hp?

"having ~25% passive damage mitigation"
There is a feat about 10% passive damage mitigation when your stamina is full,where you got the other 15%?

"Item level is not important"
Fine.You claimed that.Please can you post us a video with succesful run at ECC with you and 4 9k players?No scrolls please.Thanks.

"But ways to 100% hold aggro on yourself still exist"
Ok,if you go step by step I mean step by step the while dungeon and DPS follow maybe that is possible.Which is unrealistic cause melee DPS need to get in range (TR/GWF).So you will lose aggro at one point ,cause tanks do no damage.

"So you only have to believe my word "
And you can take mine that nothing of your claims is true.Take my word.

"Some healers can't heal while some heal very very well. Looks like it depends on player."
depends on the DPS not on the healer.If the DPS can kill fast the ads,then healer can heal less players cause ads do less damage.TTK ratio is short and healer can manage this.

"Yes some top dungeons are almoust uncompletable with random team. But it was same and in m15 wasn't it?"
In Mod15 only CR was difficult .FBI/MSP and others could be pulled of by only a decent or two players.Since you claim it is the same,do msp with one player good and the others at 11k.Is it fair my question isn't it?

"Prepared playrs deal much much more damage and survive much longer"
Since prepard players-as you I suppose?- deal much much more damage in Mod16 and survive much much longer,then soloing an entrance dungeon of mod15,would be a piece of cake?
I used to solo dungeons in the past ,FBi etc.Not VT cause it was kindergarden's job.Since now you cliam players are more moe stronger,can you please solo VT with your tank?I am just curious.

Thank you.

kolatmaster · May 2019

adinosii said:
The fundamental problems with the way scaling is implemented.
If you level up in a scaling zone, your stats may go down. You are in effect being punished for progressing
With things like R10 and R15 enchants being capped down to the same level, the motivation to improve gear is really, really reduced. Why bother getting to BiS if you will just be made equal to someone with barely mediocre gear? I mean, is this a fantasy game or a Swedish tax system simulation?
The aggressive scaling makes low-level content harder than high-end content for a L80 player. This is just wrong.
This is a game, and it is supposed to be fun. Take away the fun for some people and you take away their motivation to play.

While I am enjoying Mod 16 a great deal, I support the above points you made and think there should be appropriate adjustments made to avoid voiding out progression, making low-level content harder than high-end content, etc.

Just wanted to give credit where it's due for astute observations and clear messaging...

bigman99 · May 2019

I have seen bosses at the end of Master Expeditions continue to attack my DEAD pet until the boss was dead, while I had full aggro meter and watched. The claim that there are ways to hold aggro 100% seem to be contradicted by those incidents.

pitshade · May 2019

I've seen bosses there turned 90 degrees from me swinging wildly and spamming powers at the air. I am using an Augment, no one but me in the instance.

cherryman1 · May 2019

dolrey said:
Here I would like to give short feedback about current state of random PvE (without playing in premade groups of your guild mates or friends etc).

Have you ever played other mmos? There everybody waiting for their tank before starting to attack. Because otherwise they will die. And death in other mmos has relatively high penalty (loosing exp or wasting a lot of money for repairing your gear).

So what we see in NWO? After years of content easy as abc players just don't know anything about these easy rules of teamplay in dungeons at all. Players just roll in before tank (and it still works). Players does not focus monster wich tank strike (and it still works). Players doesn't dodge red zones (and it still works; well.. except some oneshoting aoe of some bosses).

Yes there are some broken dungeons (such as temple of tiamat wich will be fixed soon) but if something goes wrong in NOT BROKEN dungeon players just don't want to start to follow these rules. If they die in dungeons (doing unbeliavable strange things let's call them so) they just come at this forum and start asking for nerfs of monsters..

When you will enter your next dungeon please ask youself "is everything what does my team right?" Answer will be "no".

So in this thread I would like to ask developers to forse players to play by easy rules of dungeon teamplay wich every mmo player knows. By difficulty by death penalty or by something else just do it. Thank you.

Ps: I am not boasting here like look how hardcore player I am. No. I am usual player as you. And I just want to play normal content without circus allowed for many players.

Everyone agrees that we want difficult content in the game. The problem that everyone is complaining about is that they made EVERY part of the game into this same difficulty mold. The areas you out leveled should be where you out perform. The end game should be where the content is hard. NOT the early game and areas that are pushed to players who are casuals! You need half the dungeons in the game to be hard. To me that would be anything in the advanced dungeon queue should be difficult to finish. Everything in the intermediate and basic queue are for casuals and should be left in an easier mode (mechanics of dungeons shouldn't be enforced here in the areas you push towards the casual player). The zone areas aren't where the game should be scaling players or needs to be done better and more consistent. This is where the players who play the game as a single player go for relaxation. Most people don't want a dark souls type of play style everywhere. Giving the players who are casual this easy to progress pathway to end game is the way the game should be moving. Eventually, the pathway becomes more difficult as you approach the end game content (more mechanics are followed until you follow them all). This means that if I am maxed on stats for one area that is end game I should also be maxed on stats on all of the prior areas and scaled down closer to the max stats for that zone. If I have 60k stats and that is the max for level 70 areas, when I go to a zone that is lower and the maxed stats are 40k I should be just over the 40k mark for my stats. The scaling like this should be consistent and getting new gear/items shouldn't be punished but slightly improve my performance in those scaled areas. That is good scaling in the game and what we want. Right now we are scaled inconsistently to where if I go back to that 40k stat zone I would be at something like 26k stats which makes the content much more difficult than it should be. The getting better gear does help a little bit but with a maxed out toon I can't get my stats on old areas to the caps for the area but I can in the end game zones. This is bad scaling and punishes end game players which due to how fast a player levels up means a new player is at this end game state in 2 weeks of playing the game and in the same scaling BS phase. These players then still have to play through all of the old content to get things such as boons but will be punished because what took you 30 minutes of play time to run through a campaign zone in mod 15 now takes 1.5 hours in mod 16 when your over leveled. This just pushes those players to want to buy out the boons for those zones and is a complete cash grab. Those that don't pay will see that they aren't wanted in game and leave. You can't tell me that giving challenge campaigns increases the speed to finish an area when it will take 3x to 5x more real world time to finish the same campaign. If they were going to do this they would get a lot less negative feedback if you got 5x more campaign currencies for each quest you turned in. This would be welcomed and a lot fewer people would complain if this was done. This isn't done and rewards haven't been scaled to meet the extra time to complete content. I still get the same rewards for content as in the last mod or it is so minuscule of a change that I haven't see where I am getting an extra benefit.

I would even take it to where all of the old areas are level 80 zones now and scaling in them is gone. They just have a slight bit less HP and stats than the end game zone which means that I'm not punished for playing old content to help my stronghold or another alliance stronghold that might still be leveling up. I can't tell you how many players that stopped playing these old areas due to this lone change and the only group that this hurts are those strongholds who still need to upgrade their boons. This is a complete and utter trash implementation of a scaling system due to who it punishes, inconsistencies and how it removes progress from players.

cassandara · May 2019

Well everyone has a different opinion. But two main things here. One is that when you are a high level you should be able to destroy lower level content. Something akin to a navy seal team going up against a team straight out of boot camp. Poor boot camp graduates would be destroyed. So should lower content of any mmorpg with higher level character. Don't think so? Well show me in Dungeons and Dragons rule book that everything is auto scaled. It just isn't the case. But please explain to everyone where and when. Now if this game was not based on D&D you might have something to go on, but still, um no you wouldn't. Second is that if content is to easy for you run around in just a loin cloth. No armor. No weapons. No enchants. Why on earth should everyone be penalized for just some that think this junk is the best thing since sliced bread? And this garbage we have now is not D&D. I really cannot fathom where they got this idea. Have been playing D&D since 1979. And have played MMORPGs for years and have never seen anything like this. If you are a much higher level than the mobs you are facing you should be able to just blow them away. So those of you that think that just isn't fun, don't do lower level content, or run around naked.

schietindebux · May 2019

dolrey said:

schietindebux said:
In other mmos
1. the tank is not two hittet by trashmobs, and his shield is not depleted in 1 second, not refreshing over most parts of the fight
2. tanks are able to hold aggro and control fights
3. Healers are able to heal the party and support and are not an aggromagnet that kites 90% of the mobs in circles
4. mobs are not 2 times faster than the player and can do jump attacks out of nowhere, same as doing cc attacks in split seconds -> some mobs in leveling zone "Kua to hunter" jump back throw their net and pull you in in 0.5 seconds or less
5. you are not set against trashmobs with a toothpick in your hand, them having 2 million HP+ impossible to take down (endboss TONG), by that overwhelmed by mobs, that on top spread cc and knockback in a row, no way to "step not" into red zones, 2. boss is near unplayble due to perma cc effects, that proc all time
6. your char is not split in half, unable to reach the cap for almost all stats, even having rank 15th enchants, a legendary mount, near optimal gear etc.
30 more points to list...
end of the line, biggest part of playerbase is unable to play those dungeons they did in mod 15 and maybe 100% can´t solve actual TONG

Who ever thinks that NWO in it´s actual state is enjoyable, where level 70 content like MSP, CR, CODG, TONG is still unplayble to some degree even after fixes, lives on another planet !
This is not about player unable to follow simple rules of a game this is about a mod that is not enjoyable outside of the leveling areas and the new implented content.

PS: queued random today RAQ
1. abandoned CR at 2. boss
2. abandoned CR at first boss
3. abandoned CR at 3. boss (all of them 20 death+ 1hour50)
4. abandoned CODG (many death, 1hour)
some may say , "scrubs unable to learn content", but that´s BS
yesterday a MSP was a real pain at endboss, group was unable to kill tentakle same as spawned fire in time, no way in a moderate group without bugged power to absolve this dungeon, 110% not enjoyable
This cryptic is the actual state of the game. I am pretty sure these player are more than clueless, what you expect from the average player in this game, wich is not know to be a destination for hardcore player.
Some words about tanking first.
1) Probably you had not so good at tanking tank. If somebody was top tactician in m15 it doesn't mean that he is good tank (because calling tactician tank is just a joke). Now bis tank at lvl 80 without scaling should have 675+khp and relatively well equipped tank should have about 570khp (having ~25% passive damage mitigation and overcap of defence as well). Item level is not important. Only these stats make tank from your "tank". In 70 lvl dungeons it still will be 450+khp and 57+k def. Does your tank have so? If not then reason why he die too fast is evident. He just did not prepared to new mod and that it all.

2) First I had troubles with aggro too. Yes tanks no longer have one button to taunt all dungeon. But ways to 100% hold aggro on yourself still exist. I wrote guide about aggro in m16 in one of social webs in russian where I described these mechanics. But it will take too much time to translate it. So you only have to believe my word that tank can hold aggro using some of his features in right combination.

And small question here: are you sure that no one rushes forward before tank? Because as tank player I can say that of course then tank will have troubles with aggro. If somebody intentionally shoot in his own leg it is not fault of medics. If somebody intentionally roll in before tank it is not fault of tank that he can't hold aggro well.

3) Some healers can't heal while some heal very very well. Looks like it depends on player.

4) All mobs are on tank. So dds and heal should not care about their jumps etc

5) Yes some top dungeons are almoust uncompletable with random team. But it was same and in m15 wasn't it? Many players just still haven't adapted their build or playstile to m16. Prepared playrs deal much much more damage and survive much longer.

1. I did not meat one tank with 675k HP, but I am sure ther are some. This doesn´t change the fact that shield and stamina is bugged, at least on paladins side unable to refresh over the fight for most of the time, means they play all time with "dropped trouser", wich still is not even mentioned by devs or fixed.
I have to doubt you did any of the former high level content, since if you did so you should have recognized that even at IL 25k+ you are unable to reach the afforded cap wich is "pure nonsense". FBI and other dungeon are accessible for 13-15kIL. Those player will have issues to even reach 1/2 of the need arp/crit/accu not to talk about the defense stats that are underwhelming with gear thatlike, no way to even step into that content.

2. the powers you mention might work to hold aggro, but most tanks will not be able to withstand aggro of 5-10 mobs (FBI uphill),

3. if not my warlock (not having any issues with healing but with aggro) kites a big bunch of those mobs. The tank will die every few seconds, no matter if 675k HP or not.
My lock is build like a tank actually and when I step out of the dungeon that lock eats same damage than the tank.
Actually I think a lot of player did not take a lot time to think about ways to improve their tankyness, there are options for sure.

4. Problem again is the fact that in case your shield runs out, you gonna die like that. I assume you run a GF and no Paladin actually, maybe that tank has less issues with stamina, or somthing is broken, since there are so many bugs actually. I have to level my GF through content, did not test it.
If you want to witness a completely rediclue prove how devs bugged movementspeed of mobs, just join endboss in Shores of Turn... boss moves like on steroids, your char is like a statue in comparison, same as I am not sure if that boss accepts any kind of aggrotable, jumping from healer to dps to tank and back 100 times in one fight

laughable, completely bugged or maybe devs lost one numbers or two in code, no clue

5. Tong, CR, CODG are not to complete as far as I witnessed, even with top group, beside there are bugs involved.
Svardborg, Thiamat (healerphase), manycoin banks, spellplague need a very competent healer and some skilled dps to reach the end actually, unplayble for 90%+ of playerbase I assume.
Did not check all of them, RLQ as far as I can say are so easy, you can´t compare those ones to any other content actually.

sidewalk · May 2019

players do respect the system (but not all) Problem is NW does not know what RPG means.

we got roles, yes, but que up and only thing you get are dps, so no tank no heal, if we get a tank we get no heal, if we get a heal we get no tank.

That's the biggest issue this game has.

cherryman1 · May 2019

sidewalk said:
players do respect the system (but not all) Problem is NW does not know what RPG means.

we got roles, yes, but que up and only thing you get are dps, so no tank no heal, if we get a tank we get no heal, if we get a heal we get no tank.

That's the biggest issue this game has.

They use the skirmishes to make the queues pop faster since skirmishes don't respect the 3dps/1tank/1heal rules of dungeons. This means they are creating teams that don't fall into this healing mechanic and skirmishes are also setup to split the team which is not doable in the current meta. They just need to look at all of them and make them all a little easier. They seem to be balanced for players with 24000 gear score and your not getting that in those queues.

robai · May 2019

I've played many MMORPGs, none of them had this absurd mechanics: high lvl player has problems to do low lvl content.

aratech · May 2019

robai#6206 said:
I've played many MMORPGs, none of them had this absurd mechanics: high lvl player has problems to do low lvl content.

Indeed. It's telling when even Everquest, long held up as one of the old school MMOs that was eventually eclipsed by WOW because WOW let you do something other than "hang out with a group of five others to grind one mob over and over again for 20+ hours in the desperate bid to gain a single level"*, never did anything like this. Indeed, it was common practice for Guilds to send one or two *very* high level characters** alongside lower level groups that were going to grind a specific loot drop, or help some people level up, whose job it was specifically to be on standby to smash any mobs or the like that started to get out of control, in order to stop a "Train" from forming that could wipe the group and/or chase them all the way to the zone boundaries and wipe out any other PC groups in that region, because the aggro radius was absolutely horrid at times and monsters would legitimately chase you all the way to a zone boundary if you couldn't kill them.

*for those unfamiliar with it, EQ1 was the sort of game where even after years of play, you would not have hit your level cap, let alone begun expanding your characters "Alternative Advancement" abilities. This was another one of the reasons faster paced MMOs like WOW beat it into the ground, because they realized that such a long, tedious approach to combat and leveling up was simply unrewarding to players after a certain point. A lesson that seems lost on the Cryptic Dev team.

**Speaking from experience as one of the few guys who actually got *close* to a level cap back in the day, I often was dispatched on such job duties. And there were fewer things that filled a player with a sense of pride in their progression and the like to be both 1. Trusted to help "train" lower level PCs, 2. Watching a tank pull a few too many mobs back to his party and dashing in to get the situation under control by utterly *demolishing* the Mobs that you were 20-30 levels higher than. You *felt* like a Hero. You *felt* like the kind of person someone like, say, Sergeant Knox would repeatedly call on to save a bastion of civilization. Rather than someone who gets cut down by irate panthers and struggles to hold his own in areas where he long ago cleared out the baddies.

dread4moor · May 2019

dolrey said:
Here I would like to give short feedback about current state of random PvE (without playing in premade groups of your guild mates or friends etc).

Have you ever played other mmos? There everybody waiting for their tank before starting to attack. Because otherwise they will die. And death in other mmos has relatively high penalty (loosing exp or wasting a lot of money for repairing your gear).

So what we see in NWO? After years of content easy as abc players just don't know anything about these easy rules of teamplay in dungeons at all. Players just roll in before tank (and it still works). Players does not focus monster wich tank strike (and it still works). Players doesn't dodge red zones (and it still works; well.. except some oneshoting aoe of some bosses).

Yes there are some broken dungeons (such as temple of tiamat wich will be fixed soon) but if something goes wrong in NOT BROKEN dungeon players just don't want to start to follow these rules. If they die in dungeons (doing unbeliavable strange things let's call them so) they just come at this forum and start asking for nerfs of monsters..

When you will enter your next dungeon please ask youself "is everything what does my team right?" Answer will be "no".

So in this thread I would like to ask developers to forse players to play by easy rules of dungeon teamplay wich every mmo player knows. By difficulty by death penalty or by something else just do it. Thank you.

Ps: I am not boasting here like look how hardcore player I am. No. I am usual player as you. And I just want to play normal content without circus allowed for many players.

Agree with the standard MMO Doctrine: "Tanks first".
If it were not for horrible scaling outside of Undermountain and poorly designed tank shields, this could have been a self-enforcing Holy Trinity reset for NW.

Still, agree. DPS who run ahead of tank: if you die, it's on you, mate.

mifiisu · May 2019

pitshade said:
I've seen bosses there turned 90 degrees from me swinging wildly and spamming powers at the air. I am using an Augment, no one but me in the instance.

I get this in MEs when the Yeti guy is one of the minibosses - easiest kill (regardless of the number of runes) because half the time he seems to have no idea where I'm moving and seldom even targets me with attacks when I'm not (also only person in he instance using an augment). There must be something off with his maths

lantern22 · May 2019

mifiisu said:

pitshade said:
I've seen bosses there turned 90 degrees from me swinging wildly and spamming powers at the air. I am using an Augment, no one but me in the instance.
I get this in MEs when the Yeti guy is one of the minibosses - easiest kill (regardless of the number of runes) because half the time he seems to have no idea where I'm moving and seldom even targets me with attacks when I'm not (also only person in he instance using an augment). There must be something off with his maths

I think this is a bug - I see it in runic HEs, mobs are facing away from me swinging and sometimes I think I'm even take damage.

krumple01 · May 2019

dolrey said:
Here I would like to give short feedback about current state of random PvE (without playing in premade groups of your guild mates or friends etc).

Have you ever played other mmos? There everybody waiting for their tank before starting to attack. Because otherwise they will die. And death in other mmos has relatively high penalty (loosing exp or wasting a lot of money for repairing your gear).

So what we see in NWO? After years of content easy as abc players just don't know anything about these easy rules of teamplay in dungeons at all. Players just roll in before tank (and it still works). Players does not focus monster wich tank strike (and it still works). Players doesn't dodge red zones (and it still works; well.. except some oneshoting aoe of some bosses).

Yes there are some broken dungeons (such as temple of tiamat wich will be fixed soon) but if something goes wrong in NOT BROKEN dungeon players just don't want to start to follow these rules. If they die in dungeons (doing unbeliavable strange things let's call them so) they just come at this forum and start asking for nerfs of monsters..

When you will enter your next dungeon please ask youself "is everything what does my team right?" Answer will be "no".

So in this thread I would like to ask developers to forse players to play by easy rules of dungeon teamplay wich every mmo player knows. By difficulty by death penalty or by something else just do it. Thank you.

Ps: I am not boasting here like look how hardcore player I am. No. I am usual player as you. And I just want to play normal content without circus allowed for many players.

You know on the other hand when you queue for a random dungeon not premade and there is a tank that stops every fifteen seconds and stands there (probably texting on their phone) while nothing is happening. If you are going to be the tank then take responsibility to keep pressing the party forward. The party shouldn't HAVE to wait for you and anyone should gladly take down the party when the tank is holding up everything because they want to lead the party from the back after they are done sending out their text.

Unknown · May 2019

This content has been removed.

schietindebux · May 2019

GF might be in a better spot than Paladin actually. That class runs >90% of the time with depleted stamina, no shield to use. So I do blame devs definitely for not taking care of a class breaking bug, who else to blame, my neighbour?

cherryman1 · May 2019

dolrey said:

hypervoreian said:

dolrey said:

Some words about tanking first.
1) Probably you had not so good at tanking tank. If somebody was top tactician in m15 it doesn't mean that he is good tank (because calling tactician tank is just a joke). Now bis tank at lvl 80 without scaling should have 675+khp and relatively well equipped tank should have about 570khp (having ~25% passive damage mitigation and overcap of defence as well). Item level is not important. Only these stats make tank from your "tank". In 70 lvl dungeons it still will be 450+khp and 57+k def. Does your tank have so? If not then reason why he die too fast is evident. He just did not prepared to new mod and that it all.

2) First I had troubles with aggro too. Yes tanks no longer have one button to taunt all dungeon. But ways to 100% hold aggro on yourself still exist. I wrote guide about aggro in m16 in one of social webs in russian where I described these mechanics. But it will take too much time to translate it. So you only have to believe my word that tank can hold aggro using some of his features in right combination.

And small question here: are you sure that no one rushes forward before tank? Because as tank player I can say that of course then tank will have troubles with aggro. If somebody intentionally shoot in his own leg it is not fault of medics. If somebody intentionally roll in before tank it is not fault of tank that he can't hold aggro well.

3) Some healers can't heal while some heal very very well. Looks like it depends on player.

4) All mobs are on tank. So dds and heal should not care about their jumps etc

5) Yes some top dungeons are almoust uncompletable with random team. But it was same and in m15 wasn't it? Many players just still haven't adapted their build or playstile to m16. Prepared playrs deal much much more damage and survive much longer.

" Now bis tank at lvl 80 without scaling should have 675+khp "
Since you are near or BIs,care you to post us your character pic showing 675k+ hp?

"having ~25% passive damage mitigation"
There is a feat about 10% passive damage mitigation when your stamina is full,where you got the other 15%?

"Item level is not important"
Fine.You claimed that.Please can you post us a video with succesful run at ECC with you and 4 9k players?No scrolls please.Thanks.

"But ways to 100% hold aggro on yourself still exist"
Ok,if you go step by step I mean step by step the while dungeon and DPS follow maybe that is possible.Which is unrealistic cause melee DPS need to get in range (TR/GWF).So you will lose aggro at one point ,cause tanks do no damage.

"So you only have to believe my word "
And you can take mine that nothing of your claims is true.Take my word.

"Some healers can't heal while some heal very very well. Looks like it depends on player."
depends on the DPS not on the healer.If the DPS can kill fast the ads,then healer can heal less players cause ads do less damage.TTK ratio is short and healer can manage this.

"Yes some top dungeons are almoust uncompletable with random team. But it was same and in m15 wasn't it?"
In Mod15 only CR was difficult .FBI/MSP and others could be pulled of by only a decent or two players.Since you claim it is the same,do msp with one player good and the others at 11k.Is it fair my question isn't it?

"Prepared playrs deal much much more damage and survive much longer"
Since prepard players-as you I suppose?- deal much much more damage in Mod16 and survive much much longer,then soloing an entrance dungeon of mod15,would be a piece of cake?
I used to solo dungeons in the past ,FBi etc.Not VT cause it was kindergarden's job.Since now you cliam players are more moe stronger,can you please solo VT with your tank?I am just curious.

Thank you.
I misinformed you. At cap tank should have ~760+khp.

My character has no all of different items wich give hp so I have only 570khp.

About 25% damage mitigation:
+3% from potion.
+3% after taking hit more than your 15% hp from armor.
+3% from boots wich also reduce movement speed by 10% or 15%.
+3% from bracers when your stamina is more than 75%.
+3% from pants when your stamina is more than 75%.
+10% from feat.

About aggro:
You have to use [Knight's valor] on your best dd and then use [Enfored threat]. With KV you'll stop agro generation of your ally. With ET you will jump on 1st place in aggro list. And then with stolen threat by your KV you will go far away from all your dds.

About item level:
I also wrote that "Item level is not important. Only these stats make tank from your "tank". I meant that there are a lot of tanks who have 3k or even 4k item level more than me but summ of their defensive stats is still lower so they just mathematically can't absorb as much damage even having much more expencive equipment. And of cource no one talks about soloing CR with 9k character or something like that.

So, all this stuff is the only difference between prepared and not prepared players. NWO is old game so everybody play almoust same. Probably only lack of information like this and these stats create troubles with content.

In this thread I also wanted to say that don't hurry with blaming developers if something goes wrong probably you just haven't adapted to new mod yet. Just ask experienced players on your server about different features if you want to learn more (almoust 100% of them are responcive). And that is all.

Ps: I'll repeat it again that I am not boasting here or something like that. Just writing my opinion.

You are about 200,000 HP over what most tanks I have seen play in the game. At least on the international (Dragon) server there are several issues with things that provide HP to players not working. Most importantly boons that give HP haven't worked since the new mod went live. Remove 250,000 HP from your toon and see how well you tank all of these dungeons before telling everyone that they are whining when the issue is with either scaling of stats or things not working correctly compared to the Russian server. Since you are also that much above what I am seeing in regards to HP you might also not be scaled as hard as the dragon server in regards to other stats. In other words, you might be playing on easy mode while we are complaining about things since we are playing a harder version of the game. That is all just a theory as he looks to be a Russian player commenting on the game.

Unknown · May 2019

This content has been removed.

maturutuki · May 2019

I don't know full math with current scaling, but for me something like this should have balance between players wealth and experience.

For me enchants/runes and others shouldn't be scaled down to rank, but have fixed value per character level (or every x levels) per rank so it give players with better gear better stats.
Similar for other without lvl req items like companions and artifacts they should have fixed amount of values per character level per rank/rarity/level etc.
Also Items sets, character skills and passives and items special named flat bonuses should be not scalable or scalable in same way, but less drastically than others flat stat sources.

Some % stats like dmg, cc resistance, action points gain shouldn't be scalable.

Gear should be packed in tiers, where tier 0 is basic green gear and tier N is best gear available on this character level (or level range). There may be no gear with some tiers (like gear 0 - green, 1 - blue, 2- none, 3- party content, 4- seals, 5- party content best drop, 6- final raid/dungeon) on current lvl to apply difference in number of gear tiers between expansions
Every gear tier have its stats values per level, per tier.
When gear is scaled up it may lose tier, depends on area and/or area lvl.

Starting from level where lowest lvl min artifact gear are available, stepping by each character max lvl change and ending at max character lvl, gear should give some additional bonus (from lost in scaling) stats per tier per max lvl change in lower level content.

vixazarahv · May 2019

Updates should correct most of this on the 9th.

https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/11158003

Players does not respect mmorpg mechanics

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