test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Return on investment

mattachinemattachine Member Posts: 179 Arc User
I'm not the only one who feels that the upcoming changes are pretty much turning the game we have poured money into creating the characters we now love to play into a totally new game. Where the money we have spent on these characters are null and void in many cases.

I would like to get an option to return purchases made in the Zen store so the items value in Zen. I do not care much that it would be in Zen, as that Zen then could be used to buy stuff that we want for this totally new game instead.

Please note that I said OPTION. Maybe some players prefer to keep their stuff for some reason. But for those of us that feel like you have tossed the game we loved out of the window, at least give us a chance to find some reason to stick around and recreate all the work we put into our characters over the years.

Something that is still ringing fresh in my ears is the reaction the Devs had to the request made a long time ago about being able to convert an entire character into something completely new. Sort of a respec on steroids. They felt it was a horrible idea as then we would loose all what we have put into creating that character.

Guess what? You Cryptic have now plans on making us loose all what we have worked for (some items excluded). So throw us a few dragon bones so we at least get an option for a fresh start with the Zen we have spent back in our pockets to spend on this new game you're launching with Mod 16.

Comments

  • cabar1cabar1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 124 Arc User
    That will never hapen, mate. They have already started the money grab for Mod16. We all saw that coming too.

    Rogues Unite!!!!!!!!!!!
    99 lines of code on the wall, 99 lines of code, add one line, compile it again....... 113 lines on code on the wall
    113 lines of code on the wall, 113 lines of code, rewrite one line, compile it again.......
    Wait For It
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,816 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    That is why I only buy Zen store stuff that is only related to QoL such as bank slots, VIP, ... and whatever there is a long term usage (over a year). Almost anything that is related to campaign progress, battle performance is waste of money in my opinion because they are expected to be obsolete in the next mod (I don't mean just mod 16 but any next mod).
    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • lordnagy#1603 lordnagy Member Posts: 177 Arc User
    ALL SALES FINAL!
  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Member Posts: 674 Arc User
    I want all my money back from WoW and SWTOR and whatever else I spent money on but no longer play.

    You know? Because they "changed the game" and now I feel "ripped off".

    Yeah, those checks should start rolling in any time now. Any time...
  • krumple01krumple01 Member Posts: 755 Arc User

    I'm not the only one who feels that the upcoming changes are pretty much turning the game we have poured money into creating the characters we now love to play into a totally new game. Where the money we have spent on these characters are null and void in many cases.

    I would like to get an option to return purchases made in the Zen store so the items value in Zen. I do not care much that it would be in Zen, as that Zen then could be used to buy stuff that we want for this totally new game instead.

    Please note that I said OPTION. Maybe some players prefer to keep their stuff for some reason. But for those of us that feel like you have tossed the game we loved out of the window, at least give us a chance to find some reason to stick around and recreate all the work we put into our characters over the years.

    Something that is still ringing fresh in my ears is the reaction the Devs had to the request made a long time ago about being able to convert an entire character into something completely new. Sort of a respec on steroids. They felt it was a horrible idea as then we would loose all what we have put into creating that character.

    Guess what? You Cryptic have now plans on making us loose all what we have worked for (some items excluded). So throw us a few dragon bones so we at least get an option for a fresh start with the Zen we have spent back in our pockets to spend on this new game you're launching with Mod 16.

    You should get in line, a long long line because back in the early days one of the first cash mounts was the Nightmare. How many have you seen running with nightmare mounts? My point is, this pay now nerf later has happened so much that it just sounds funny when a new player comes in and complains about this. There is a huge laundry list of times this has occurred in NW.

    I've spent a lot of money on the game over the years. The thing is, if I were to really analyze how much I have spent vs other forms of entertainment, its practically nothing. So even though I have bought packs that are totally obsolete now even in mod 15 they are obsolete, cryptic has my money and I don't want it back. They earned it. The fact is, if they were to honor an item purchased with cash attempting to maintain its "value" or importance the game would get incredibly boring. Think about it going back to my Nightmare example. Imagine if the Nightmare mount had to be the best mount since they introduced it as a Zen purchase only item? Its good that things change. I also have the Hero of North pack. Pretty much everything in that pack is obsolete and that pack costs and still costs $200 and hasn't come down in price. I got it when it was first released and it still costs 20000 zen.

    But like I said, ive spent far less money on NW than I do on other forms of entertainment. So they earned it. Does it suck that the money spent is no longer relevant? Sure but I also like that the game evolves and there aren't the same Nightmares running around. You shoulda seen how many players had them. I like the diversity now better.

    So cryptic doesn't need to give you anything. Instead you need to change your frame of mind. If you are willing to give cryptic money, don't expect the item you bought to be relevant next mod.
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,254 Arc User
    Cryptic will never do anything that will severely cut their income. And Zen sales is the main income source for Cryptic(at least at my guess, it would be really interesting to see Cryptic's accounts :) ).
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    Some states and countries have consumer protection laws in place that you maybe able to use to get a refund if the purchase you made have been within 30-90 days depending upon where you live. Though most people I know who spent money on the game did so during the holiday sale making such refunds not a thing.

    What I would like is that the devs would make mounts and companions account bound; this would help remove some of the negative comments about mod 16. I know for me I would be a much happier player if companions and mounts were account wide vs. character.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,205 Arc User
    This isn't an investment. It is an entertainment expense. No different than paying to see a movie in the theater.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • mattachinemattachine Member Posts: 179 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    This isn't an investment. It is an entertainment expense. No different than paying to see a movie in the theater.

    Your statement makes me question if you have ever been to a movie? One that you pay to get a better and better experience for every single scene you watch and that you participate in. I have no idea where you go to watch movies or who makes those kinds of movies but I have never heard of movies like that. I've heard of some movies that have special effects like heat, cold, water, smoke and so on. But none that are interactive on an individual basis.
    Definition of investment (Merriam-Webster)
    : the sum invested or the property purchased

    Definition of property (Merriam-Webster)
    1d : an attribute common to all members of a class
    2a : something owned or possessed
    2b : the exclusive right to possess, enjoy, and dispose of a thing
    2c : something to which a person or business has a legal title
    3 : an article or object used in a play or motion picture except painted scenery and costumes
    I've "purchased" (my receipts are my "legal title") the "exclusive right to possess" many "properties", "articles", "objects" that has "attributes" that are "common to all members of the class" that "purchased" the same "property". A "property" that I can use for my "entertainment" purpose in this "play" or "motion picture" as you put it.

    I have also "invested" a lot of time to learn how to play the best way possible (which is not in any way bragging as I'm not exceptional in any way). I get by with what I've learned and "purchased" nothing less nothing more. So no expert that only does BIS, Min, and Max (which is boring stuff for me) as it takes all the fun out of gaming for me. This "investment" I've made will be pretty much made null and void with Mod 16.

    Now that they are not only doing minor changes to everything I "purchased" (my "property"), they are no longer the "property" that I "purchased". Thus the least they could do is allow us a way to convert these "properties" into Zen so we can "invest" that Zen into other "properties" that would in fact be a better replacement for the "properties" that they changed in a way that they no longer have the use they had when the "property" originally was "purchased".

    The solution would only cost them the time to input such a conversion system (of which they have plenty of experience with, such as the old crafting materials conversion interface), and which is something they are in desperate need of adding to avoid risking to alienate even more players in the long run. All they have to do then is to make a spread sheet conversion table for everything that can be "purchased" with Zen. Put that data into the system and we would be able to convert the "property" we have originally "invested" in, into new "property" that we will "invest" in. They would still keep all the cash that we "purchased" the original Zen for that we used to "purchase" these "properties" before they changed them.

    Not adding something like this into Mod 16 will only make those that have "invested" all that cash on Zen, to own "property", to never "invest" any more cash with Cryptic. Adding such a conversion system in would at least make me less adverse to "invest" again. This is even though I'm still hurting over their decision to cancel the Foundry, which was a huge deal for me. Them doing a grand gesture like this, probably would make me keep playing. As it would show that they do care about the players and not only see them as someone to trick into giving them cash.

  • rickcase276rickcase276 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,382 Arc User
    Then you really need to read the ToS that you agreed to when you started playing the game. Everything you are talking about is laid out in clarity in there.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,205 Arc User
    Unless you can take something from the game and set it on a shelf in your home, you don't own it.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,816 Arc User
    edited March 2019



    I've "purchased" (my receipts are my "legal title") the "exclusive right to possess" many "properties", "articles", "objects" that has "attributes" that are "common to all members of the class" that "purchased" the same "property". A "property" that I can use for my "entertainment" purpose in this "play" or "motion picture" as you put it.

    I have also "invested" a lot of time to learn how to play the best way possible (which is not in any way bragging as I'm not exceptional in any way). I get by with what I've learned and "purchased" nothing less nothing more. So no expert that only does BIS, Min, and Max (which is boring stuff for me) as it takes all the fun out of gaming for me. This "investment" I've made will be pretty much made null and void with Mod 16.

    Now that they are not only doing minor changes to everything I "purchased" (my "property"), they are no longer the "property" that I "purchased". Thus the least they could do is allow us a way to convert these "properties" into Zen so we can "invest" that Zen into other "properties" that would in fact be a better replacement for the "properties" that they changed in a way that they no longer have the use they had when the "property" originally was "purchased".

    The solution would only cost them the time to input such a conversion system (of which they have plenty of experience with, such as the old crafting materials conversion interface), and which is something they are in desperate need of adding to avoid risking to alienate even more players in the long run. All they have to do then is to make a spread sheet conversion table for everything that can be "purchased" with Zen. Put that data into the system and we would be able to convert the "property" we have originally "invested" in, into new "property" that we will "invest" in. They would still keep all the cash that we "purchased" the original Zen for that we used to "purchase" these "properties" before they changed them.

    Not adding something like this into Mod 16 will only make those that have "invested" all that cash on Zen, to own "property", to never "invest" any more cash with Cryptic. Adding such a conversion system in would at least make me less adverse to "invest" again. This is even though I'm still hurting over their decision to cancel the Foundry, which was a huge deal for me. Them doing a grand gesture like this, probably would make me keep playing. As it would show that they do care about the players and not only see them as someone to trick into giving them cash.

    What did you buy from the Zen store?
    Do you still have the item from the Zen store?
    Is the description of the item changed?
    Does the item still do what the description say?
    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • cdnbisoncdnbison Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 806 Arc User

    greywynd said:

    This isn't an investment. It is an entertainment expense. No different than paying to see a movie in the theater.

    Your statement makes me question if you have ever been to a movie? One that you pay to get a better and better experience for every single scene you watch and that you participate in.

    You buy a movie ticket, get entertained. You pay for a game, get entertained. I'm not looking for my $2 back from Fox / LucasFilm because George Lucas decided to tinker with the originals. The "Special Edition" didn't suddenly ruin my 'investment' in Star Wars memorabilia. I got what I paid for - in the case of a movie, a couple hours of entertainment. In the case of the game, I used what I bought, and was entertained.

    "Gameplay experience may change." Simple as that. They're already going above and beyond by offering the enchant exchange, enchant/runestone exchange, wpn/armor enchant exchange, AND insignia exchange, IMO. If you dumped cash into something else (and I'm guessing it's companions, but feel free to clear that up, if you're referring to something else), then that's on you. Did you get to use, say, that companion? Or spend those power points? Did it work? For how many hours of gameplay?
  • kiraskytowerkiraskytower Member Posts: 452 Arc User
    cdnbison said:



    "Gameplay experience may change." Simple as that. They're already going above and beyond by offering the enchant exchange, enchant/runestone exchange, wpn/armor enchant exchange, AND insignia exchange, IMO. If you dumped cash into something else (and I'm guessing it's companions, but feel free to clear that up, if you're referring to something else), then that's on you. Did you get to use, say, that companion? Or spend those power points? Did it work? For how many hours of gameplay?

    The exchange even includes some zen items (if unused) - Power points in particular.

    In Mod 16 all your zen companions and mounts are still yours ... and still usable. Maybe they are no longer "BiS", but that is always the risk of buying something from the zen store. The game changes and "BiS" changes every module. The only zen store purchases really invalidated by Mod 16 are companion slots and power points (both are relatively cheap zen items anyhow and ones you have likely already gotten plenty of use out of).
    PandorasMisfits_Logo_175_zpskpytcqxc.png
    Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
    Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,254 Arc User
    The ToS clearly states that the game is Cryptics property, and that any payment to them is payment for service.

    This is the legal model used by all mmorpgs, and you can be very certain their lawyers has sewn this one up *very* tight. Anything else would be undermining their business in the face of thousands of sue-happy players out there.
  • nunya#5309 nunya Member Posts: 933 Arc User
    You are over-the-top ridiculous, @mattachine. Completely. Read the Terms of Service/End User License Agreement. You don't own anything when it comes to Neverwinter. You aren't entitled to any money back. Your choices are the same as everyone else: Continue playing or quit. Pick one.
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    As many of said , its just a entertainment purchase, I pay this and not for cable.. I get a netflix sub for my kids to watch stuff and I will maybe pay 3-4 times a year other (streaming) services for me to watch some football. (all told about 25% of the cost of cable.. even with my in game purchases)

    I figure games in general return more then watching ad nasuem cable .

    That said.. summer is coming, I prefer gardening and hiking with my kids, then playing games.. but living in the fridge northern wastes.. makes me stay inside for a few months of they year ( I have never enjoyed skiing or things of that nature.. So somewhere between late oct/early nove and late may/early april when I start re working the gardens and its too cold, snowy, wet or icy to stay outdoors for long stretches at a time.. I spend alot more time playing . (I will bring the kids to the pond a few times to ice skate.. but even after a hour in sub 20 degrees F.. its really cold lol) I dont know how those people stay outside for hours on end and actually enjoy it.

    That being said.. when vast changes come into any game, its always a time to reflect.. is this worth my time anymore? Did I feel like I received satisfactory value for my dollars? Is it still so? Will the changes , change what I want from my experience?

    At the end of the day, all games come to an end.. this one will to, most games, IN MY experience, are at their best between years 1-4.. after that.. not so much. This game probably was at its best between years 1-2.. 3 was ok.. then 4.. with them ramping up costing to progress, it wasnt so much fun anymore. (hello artifact gear)

    I also, have hated every SINGLE enchant increase they have done, my two biggest issues are how fast they release campaigns.. I cant stand thier 3-4 month cycles.. way too quick to enjoy anything imo.. but so many of you RUSH right out of the gate to finish everything, then the moment you are done.. are asking for another one (ridiculous) . To me personally its after the campaigns were done that I enjoyed the game the most..

    What personally do I hate about mod 16 so far?
    1. Enchant increase.
    2. This stat rework (then they are redoing it again.. so we will see)
    3. Slow pacing of the game it feels slower then ever..

    I will probably take a long break again..

    BUT LEARN right now from this, dont pay real world money for their HAMSTER in the zen market.. many have been burnt.. just save up some AD.. and either wait a month or two for zen.. or buy it from AD. Sometimes by the time you save up AD.. its pretty much useless anyways!

    I have given them money .. usually VIP.. a few account wide mounts.. and that stuff (dragonborn pack when it went on sale 75%) some bank space ect..

    But I bought all of my comps, wards off the AH.. I would rather pay the extra money, then give them real world money and I would rather wait another 2 months to get gear upgraded then to pay them directly for it.

    I will never play a game, that will make me purchase stuff to progress.. simple as that.. other then a very small % of players who can afford that.. I would recommend never doing that as well.

    Unfortunately their marketing people are not stupid, they try to get people hooked, mmos can be kind of addictive, there are people who have ruined their entire lives around it. While its easy for them to use mouth speach to say its not their aim.. lets be honest.. its their aim to hook people and peddle their drugs(err game) You need to have some fortitude to resit it, not much really, but if you are person leaning towards that addictive behavior, best to avoid mmos all together.

    Find something healthier to do in real life instead.

  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    Unless you can take something from the game and set it on a shelf in your home, you don't own it.


    Not true. Even the ones on your self the company owns. It is all intellectual property right that the company has, basically the code on the disc is owned by the company, just like the code for the items you acquire in a game like NWO is owned by the company. You as the player don't own the digital item; you rent it. Which is why the company has the right to revoke your right to the game when you try to sell a digital item through a 3rd party vendor.

    With that said, Cryptic does a horrible job monitoring such behavior as some players have earned real world revenue off this game. This real world revenue has hurt Cryptic bottom line as the funds are not going into the game but to a player directly. The item is typically a bit cheaper than what it would be in game if you buy zen and convert it to AD.

    I agree that Cryptic should allow us to get a credit towards our items for through their system but if this happens items will be given a hard price such as legendary mount. We than as player should be able to sell back these said items at a reduced rate. For instance a legendary mount should cost around $125 but when we sell it back we would get a % of the price based on how long we have rented the item. Any item that is one year or older we would get zero back. Any item that is 6-12 months we would get back 25% of the price and any item between 3-6 months would be 50% and anything between 0-3 months would be 75%.

    Since most players are concern about the companions and mounts we have acquired I believe Cryptic should make it so we can exchange any mount and companions for a month to other characters. To me that would be a fair short term change given that some of the players will be changing class as they may not enjoy their primary class after mod 16.

    Honestly I rather see all mounts and companions acquired be account bound vs. character bound.
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    Well if you are talking about bind status.. I 100% agree, all items should either be unbound, or account bound.

    That shouldve happened years ago.

    Something many of us requested over and over..

  • toff#3970 toff Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    ok its free to play game, Cryptic make their money from selling stuff via zen. the fact that this free to play game is still going and still has a lot of players is due to the fact that they keep updating and adding stuff, they cant do this for nothing. so put your big boy pants on and suck it up.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,205 Arc User



    Not true. Even the ones on your self the company owns.

    Try again. I said "take something from the game and put it on your shelf". Can you mount your TR's daggers on your wall? No, so you don't own them.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • cherryman1cherryman1 Member Posts: 340 Arc User
    I feel that this is going to be brought up a lot in the next few months from a lot of different places. This thought that I put in money into the game and the developers creating something to where the money invested really doesn't do much for the person who made the initial investment.
    Guild Leader: Under the Influence
    Yule (Barb): 55k : Siren (TR): 60k : Torun (DC): 54k : Siren OP (OP): 59k : Siren SW (SW): 54k : Modern (F): 62k : Cherry1 (CW) : 48k Siren HR (HR): 54k
  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Member Posts: 2,096 Arc User
    Investments are suppose to go up in value. I buy 100 shares of IBM expecting to be able to sell it for more money some time in the future. Paying money into a game is NOT an investment. I've never paid for a game that I was later able to sell for more money. As others already said, paying for a game is akin to buying entertainment. You pay to access certain features. Sadly, the devs have the right to change anything they want.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,816 Arc User
    edited April 2019

    Investments are suppose to go up in value. I buy 100 shares of IBM expecting to be able to sell it for more money some time in the future. Paying money into a game is NOT an investment. I've never paid for a game that I was later able to sell for more money. As others already said, paying for a game is akin to buying entertainment. You pay to access certain features. Sadly, the devs have the right to change anything they want.

    Since it is about a game, the context of the investment is about gaining value and/or helping to earn value within the game.
    Buying weapon set is not a good investment because it won't gain value (unless you don't use it) or help you to earn much. Usually, it won't last for 2 mods.

    Buying a tool may be a good investment because it can help you to create something that you can sell.
    Getting Quartermaster enchantment may be a good investment because you don't need to spend anything to buy RP.
    Getting more characters may be a good investment because it can help in a variety of benefit.

    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User

    I feel that this is going to be brought up a lot in the next few months from a lot of different places. This thought that I put in money into the game and the developers creating something to where the money invested really doesn't do much for the person who made the initial investment.

    It's just wrong to think of this as an "investment". I mean, if you spend money on a movie ticket, do you think of it as "investment"? No, you are just paying for (temporary) entertainment.

    Spending money on a game is the same - you are paying for some hours/days/weeks/months of enjoyment - but not "investing" anything.

    Hoping for improvements...
  • dionchidionchi Member Posts: 904 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Very few things even offer a guaranteed satisfactory return on "investments"… Just like pushing the button on a slot machine, sometimes you win – sometimes you lose… Sometimes you win big – sometimes you win little.

    I figure if anyone wants a guaranteed return for their "investment" with few surprises, they should invest in Savings Bonds… otherwise (particularly apt considering Neverwinter is a D&D game) –
    Ya’ roll the dice and ya’ take your chances
    DD~
Sign In or Register to comment.