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Death of a Paladin – An Opinion Piece

ragnarz2ragnarz2 Member Posts: 208 Arc User
edited March 2019 in General Discussion (PC)
Neverwinter is under going massive changes with MOD 16. The case can be made that change was imperative. Too much was out of balance. Most reasonable players would IMO agree with this characterization. Rather than point to specific changes that are debatable I want to focus on the root cause rather than multiple symptoms and provide a singular example.

Before a single line of code is written a philosophy of parameters is formulated. These act as the design template for everything. Rather than create a diverse set of parameters that would yield a rich set of choices for the players one of commonality was put forth.

The Paladin which was arguably the most flexible of classes has for all intents and purposes been removed from the game. It now shares a block mechanic and a divinity mechanic with other classes. The result is the most flexible class has been narrowed to have few choices. Use divinity and block to regain divinity.

I find this highly objectionable. Introducing a simplistic and highly limiting scheme for the Paladin is a class killer for me. I often see people refer to "cookie cutter" builds, this is now a cookie cutter class. One size fits all. Choice has been removed. While I am sure some segment of the player base celebrates the death of the over powered Paladin I lament the elimination of choice and creativity. Change should enhance the gaming experience not lobotomize it.

In conclusion, decisions were made up front that have resulted in what I consider to be uncompelling results. It will very interesting to see what the state of the game will be 2 months out from live. I might be way off base but I expect that there will be a dramatic fall off in what classes get played and by extension overall population.

Comments

  • dheffernandheffernan Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 204 Arc User
    Rangers got it too. The abilities I use in my main loadout are scattered over the two paths and the whole feel of the class is gone.
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  • ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    Leave the game as it was, nerf lifesteal to oblivion, put a cap on recharge speed/damage buffs, nerf/make other feat trees viable for classes.

    Nah, that was too much for them. Just butcher the entire thing and pray that the game continues to make money with dramatically oversimplified classes and combat. This tedious new combat is the polar opposite of fun. I used to be able to grind like a mindless puppet for hours because of entertaining combat and mechanics. Not anymore.

    If someone's idea of fun is spamming smite on enemy after enemy, then I think I'm in the wrong universe.
  • thetoothpick#9832 thetoothpick Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    The paladin class does need a lot and I mean a lot of work. Keep in mind it is still in test stage. Hopefully they fix the way it is played.
  • ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User

    The paladin class does need a lot and I mean a lot of work. Keep in mind it is still in test stage. Hopefully they fix the way it is played.

    Undo the dumb split all encounters in half and limit the choices paragons have? Allow you to actually grind with at-wills, that you could do back during the birth of the game all the way up to present day?

    I might stay if that happens. Right now it is not even remotely fun being limit to 2-3 encounters for your everyday grind. Why at-wills exist, or why they made new ones that deal no damage either, is beyond me.
  • skuallpwskuallpw Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    well at least paladin is now a "fighter tank" + "cleric heal" , with some "light" flavour for animations
  • contractor#9414 contractor Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    The paladin was originally a weaker tank then a warrior and a weaker healer then the cleric. It was never meant to be the best of both worlds, as it has become, it needs to go back to what it originally was and not a superman.
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,304 Arc User
    Their solution to players coming up with a meta that they didn't anticipate was to remove as many choices as were necessary to prevent it from happening. So, now we'll have a "choice" between this tiny gameplay box and that tiny gameplay box for each class. No more theorycrafting and no different playstyles allowed -- we have to choose our tiny little box and like it, it seems.
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  • havlockehavlocke Member Posts: 222 Arc User
    hustin1 said:

    Their solution to players coming up with a meta that they didn't anticipate was to remove as many choices as were necessary to prevent it from happening. So, now we'll have a "choice" between this tiny gameplay box and that tiny gameplay box for each class. No more theorycrafting and no different playstyles allowed -- we have to choose our tiny little box and like it, it seems.

    I'd rather an actual meaningful choice of 2 paths than the illusion of 200 paths of which there was only 1. All theorycrafting did was whittle down everything to one choice. If you wanted to play endgame you didn't really have different playstyles. Your OP had better be a buff pally or you were kicked. I know my Burnadin would have been kicked for any content higher than the Intermediate Queues.
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,131 Arc User
    In general I think doomsaying should wait until launch. There is still time for significant changes.

    Human being hate changes. Some of us have invested fairly large amounts of time and/or money in our characters, and much of it will be voided in mod 16. So I will not be surprised if mod 16 leads to a large loss of veteran players.

    But I am not sure if Cryptic cares. The large majority of the playerbase is fairly short-lived fairly casual players rotating through. They come and go quickly, and leave behind a little chunk of money each that Cryptic lives off. The BiS veterans have little reason to spend much money and just eat up resources with no payback.

    This change actually should make game more attractive for the less-developed characters, as the difference between a 12k IL and a 18k IL will be dramatically reduced. While the dps difference today can be 1:10, after mod 16 it is my guess it will be reduced to 1:2. There will be much less reason to kick people from groups for lack of gear.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,463 Arc User

    I think it was a bad idea for them to announce changes. At least it was a bad idea to announce them so early. Now we all have too much time to fear the worst. (Ok, maybe we can't imagine the worst)

    The game is all kinds of messed up. Something needs to change. I can honestly say I don't trust them to change it for the better.

    Yes, so much better for them to just drop it on Live and say, "Here you go. Have fun." than allow people a chance to try it, bring up any concerns they may have so that they can be looked at and fixed if necessary/possible before it goes live.
    Vampires are dead bodies animated by a spiritual infection. Blood will have blood because it must, because that's how the infection is spread. The infected wake up inside their coffins, break out, and dig their way up out of their own graves. Undead, unnatural things, driven by a need for blood and horror. Parasites that prey on the living. There's nothing romantic, or melancholy, about vampires. They're leeches on two legs. ~ Simon R. Green The Big Game
  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,038 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    I think it was a bad idea for them to announce changes. At least it was a bad idea to announce them so early. Now we all have too much time to fear the worst. (Ok, maybe we can't imagine the worst)

    The game is all kinds of messed up. Something needs to change. I can honestly say I don't trust them to change it for the better.

    Yes, so much better for them to just drop it on Live and say, "Here you go. Have fun." than allow people a chance to try it, bring up any concerns they may have so that they can be looked at and fixed if necessary/possible before it goes live.
    and the chances that any significant changes will be made are . . . . . .
  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,038 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    I think it was a bad idea for them to announce changes. At least it was a bad idea to announce them so early. Now we all have too much time to fear the worst. (Ok, maybe we can't imagine the worst)

    The game is all kinds of messed up. Something needs to change. I can honestly say I don't trust them to change it for the better.

    Yes, so much better for them to just drop it on Live and say, "Here you go. Have fun." than allow people a chance to try it, bring up any concerns they may have so that they can be looked at and fixed if necessary/possible before it goes live.
    and the chances that any significant changes will be made are . . . . . .
  • ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    Don't see the game recovering with this new bland class and combat. Nothing is unique anymore. Everything feels robotic.

    New players? That's a @#$%in joke. They're going to take one taste, and go check out another game that offers vastly more diversity. They literally destroyed everything that made this game unique with the snap of their finger.
  • kharkov58kharkov58 Member Posts: 530 Arc User
    The problem with waiting for it to improve before it goes live, is they need to change pretty much every thing about the class, at least as far as the Justicar paragon is concerned. All the concerns below are for the Justicar.

    Lets start with the paragon "feature". Deal 30% less damage and generate more threat. With the current encounter powers and dailies we are stuck with, why do we need a permanent 30% debuff.

    How about the great new feats we get? Pick a power to use to get a minor improvement to its effects. At least 3 of the 5 feat choices tie you to one or the other power, only 1 power of which will be slotted on my power bar. so at least 2 feats that I will not be getting any benefit from. The last 2 feats seem very underwhelming as well.

    How about boons? I have allocated my boons and I am never allowed to put another point in master boons or tier 5 boons? I have to choose whether to get a 1% bonus against cultists, dynos, undead or demons for any boons I may gain in the future. I know you were trying to reduce the value of boons, but where is the incentive to earn new boons?

    I don't know how the powers stack up against other classes powers, but I would bet they are worse than most classes especially when we take into account our permanent debuff.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,463 Arc User
    ghoulz66 said:

    Don't see the game recovering with this new bland class and combat. Nothing is unique anymore. Everything feels robotic.

    New players? That's a @#$%in joke. They're going to take one taste, and go check out another game that offers vastly more diversity. They literally destroyed everything that made this game unique with the snap of their finger.

    How unique was it when every class you saw was the exact same build everywhere?
    Vampires are dead bodies animated by a spiritual infection. Blood will have blood because it must, because that's how the infection is spread. The infected wake up inside their coffins, break out, and dig their way up out of their own graves. Undead, unnatural things, driven by a need for blood and horror. Parasites that prey on the living. There's nothing romantic, or melancholy, about vampires. They're leeches on two legs. ~ Simon R. Green The Big Game
  • gunk#7763 gunk Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    16k OP tank mod 15 can solo ALL dungeons from Kessel to Castle Never, now mod 16 on Preview died 4 times in ELOL, 2 to golem(with sheild up) and 2 one shots from the 5 man party of GWF/HR/3TR WITH my SHEILD down. Broken is not the word. 30% reduction in DPS for tanks, and they just boosted it in MOD 15 WTF MAKE UP UR MFing MINDS!!!!!!!
  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,038 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    ghoulz66 said:

    Don't see the game recovering with this new bland class and combat. Nothing is unique anymore. Everything feels robotic.

    New players? That's a @#$%in joke. They're going to take one taste, and go check out another game that offers vastly more diversity. They literally destroyed everything that made this game unique with the snap of their finger.

    How unique was it when every class you saw was the exact same build everywhere?
    Yes but now builds are almost exactly the same across classes (i.e. boons) - so this is has way less diversity. Mod 16 - less of everything. I guess we hope that less is more (content or something).

  • leonidrexleonidrex Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    havlocke said:

    hustin1 said:

    Their solution to players coming up with a meta that they didn't anticipate was to remove as many choices as were necessary to prevent it from happening. So, now we'll have a "choice" between this tiny gameplay box and that tiny gameplay box for each class. No more theorycrafting and no different playstyles allowed -- we have to choose our tiny little box and like it, it seems.

    I'd rather an actual meaningful choice of 2 paths than the illusion of 200 paths of which there was only 1. All theorycrafting did was whittle down everything to one choice. If you wanted to play endgame you didn't really have different playstyles. Your OP had better be a buff pally or you were kicked. I know my Burnadin would have been kicked for any content higher than the Intermediate Queues.
    then you were rolling with the wrong people my friend, i had several different loadouts from tank, to buff to dps. and dont even start me on pvp, had around 15 different sets there :D now its all gone. its all smite now.
  • leonidrexleonidrex Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    bobo#5090 said:

    gunk#7763 said:

    16k OP tank mod 15 can solo ALL dungeons from Kessel to Castle Never, now mod 16 on Preview died 4 times in ELOL, 2 to golem(with sheild up) and 2 one shots from the 5 man party of GWF/HR/3TR WITH my SHEILD down. Broken is not the word. 30% reduction in DPS for tanks, and they just boosted it in MOD 15 WTF MAKE UP UR MFing MINDS!!!!!!!


    What enchants do you have? My OP on Xbox is 15k, and I get one shot all the time in FBI, even when trying to stay out of the way and heal. Most of my enchants are still r8-9, but I do have few r13-14. All main gear is IL500 or higher, and I still can't even put a scratch on anything in any advanced q. At least when I get Edemo I have a chance at not dying or only respawn once, not every 2 seconds like FBI, Spell, or Sarvdborg...

    use templars wrath to gain temp HP, buff your dmg before doing so. the shield should hold couple of hits even if your not very geared. In fbi try to not get CC chained by giants. use CoP to get dmg boost, tab with justice tree and then templars.
  • havlockehavlocke Member Posts: 222 Arc User
    leonidrex said:

    havlocke said:

    hustin1 said:

    Their solution to players coming up with a meta that they didn't anticipate was to remove as many choices as were necessary to prevent it from happening. So, now we'll have a "choice" between this tiny gameplay box and that tiny gameplay box for each class. No more theorycrafting and no different playstyles allowed -- we have to choose our tiny little box and like it, it seems.

    I'd rather an actual meaningful choice of 2 paths than the illusion of 200 paths of which there was only 1. All theorycrafting did was whittle down everything to one choice. If you wanted to play endgame you didn't really have different playstyles. Your OP had better be a buff pally or you were kicked. I know my Burnadin would have been kicked for any content higher than the Intermediate Queues.
    then you were rolling with the wrong people my friend, i had several different loadouts from tank, to buff to dps. and dont even start me on pvp, had around 15 different sets there :D now its all gone. its all smite now.
    And how different was your tank paladin from the other tank paladin sitting next to you? My Burnadin was pretty identical to every other Burnadin. And that's my point. Also, with the new system, I'm pretty sure the Heal Paladin will look a lot different from the Tank Paladin. I'm just unhappy that there really will be no DPS Pally anymore. But who knows?
  • benyrbenyr Member Posts: 202 Arc User
    16k OP tank mod 15 can solo ALL dungeons from Kessel to Castle Never, now mod 16 on Preview died 4 times in ELOL, 2 to golem(with sheild up) and 2 one shots from the 5 man party of GWF/HR/3TR WITH my SHEILD down. Broken is not the word. 30% reduction in DPS for tanks, and they just boosted it in MOD 15 WTF MAKE UP UR MFing MINDS!!!!!!!

     Flag  Quote

    19k OP tank on live, can solo FBI in under an hour with no deaths. On preview tried to solo ESOT, got to the boss okish, could not survive in the boss' chamber. Mainly because its a multi mob boss encounter and paladins are very slow and sheild only points one way now. I could not stop myself being flanked by the boss and his two drakes, and everytime they flanked me, i got one shot killed.
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    The

    Rangers got it too. The abilities I use in my main loadout are scattered over the two paths and the whole feel of the class is gone.

    Same thing happened to Wiz also, they should just get rid of paragons, and allow us to select powers from both paths when a new power unlocks at level up (from a pool of powers/features/mechanics common to the class), make a few of them different based on which "subclass" we choose in 5e parlance, it would allow them to develop many different subclasses as time goes on. Just add a few new powers, feats, and class mechanics, nothing major, just something to give each class a different flavor. Like an illusionist mage, or an Oathbreaker paladin (dps role), etc. That would be the bees knees.

  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,297 Arc User

    The

    Rangers got it too. The abilities I use in my main loadout are scattered over the two paths and the whole feel of the class is gone.

    Same thing happened to Wiz also, they should just get rid of paragons, and allow us to select powers from both paths when a new power unlocks at level up (from a pool of powers/features/mechanics common to the class), make a few of them different based on which "subclass" we choose in 5e parlance, it would allow them to develop many different subclasses as time goes on. Just add a few new powers, feats, and class mechanics, nothing major, just something to give each class a different flavor. Like an illusionist mage, or an Oathbreaker paladin (dps role), etc. That would be the bees knees.
    I'll take a magic melee hybrid so I can have Arcane Empowerment and Anvil of Doom on the same build...

  • reg1981reg1981 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,199 Arc User
    edited March 2019


    The BiS veterans have little reason to spend much money and just eat up resources with no payback.


    This could go both ways. I spend a few bucks here and there, I tend to buy Leg. Dragon Keys. I run a dungeon, I wanna open my chests :) Other than those keys I'll pay for VIP. Personally I feel it should be a purely paid service.

    I'm floored that new players spend money in game. I honestly am. If ever I'm asked by a new player what to buy, my answer is always the same. Buy NOTHING until you hit level 70. It's a whole new game from there.

  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Member Posts: 2,073 Arc User
    I haven't spent a single dollar in a long time. But I do spent lots of time carrying people in hard runs. We are all content and we pay, with cash or time.
  • zapoluszapolus Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 18 Arc User
    Do these Devs listen anymore to what ppl that play aside from youtubers as to what needs tweeked? M16 is going to be like m6
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