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Official M16: Cleric Feedback

asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

Feedback: Cleric

Greetings adventurers, Asterdahl here! This thread is for providing bug reports and feedback on the upcoming changes to cleric in Module 16. If you haven't already please take a moment to read Noworries' M16: Overview thread.

The most important takeaway in terms of class feedback is: we are still making changes to class powers, both functional and numerical. We wanted to get your hands on the changes sooner than usual. However, as a result, we ask that you realize what you see on preview will change, sometimes dramatically before launch. If you find your perfect build on preview, it may not be the perfect build on live. Powers you feel are very strong, may not stay as strong. We ask for your patience with these changes.

Finally, there are some known issues going into the initial preview build. Particularly in feats, a number of feats may reference powers that are not available when the feat is unlocked, or in some rare cases, reference powers which no longer exist. We have made a number of changes coming out of closed beta, and it is our short term goal to have these feats updated in the near future.

As always, thank you for taking the time to come check things out on preview, we look forward to your feedback!

Formatting Your Feedback and Bugs

For posting feedback and bugs, please follow the following format to ensure your feedback and bugs are seen clearly and processed in a timely manner, thank you!

Type: Bug/Feedback (Please only choose one)
If you are listing a bug please have this text in RED, if you are posting an opinion or feedback please use CYAN. If you are replying to another user's post, asking a question, or just engaging in general discussion, please do not color your posts, general discussion is welcome and we will read all of it, regardless of color! You can use BBCode to color your text:

<font color=cyan>This text will display in cyan.</font> <font color=red>This text will display in red.</font>

Examples:
Bug: Piercing Light said it deals damage to enemies in a line, but it only dealt damage to my primary target.

Feedback: Bastion of Health doesn't feel strong enough, it's like I'm barely able to heal up my group after they take a big hit.
Post edited by asterdahl on
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Comments

  • b0rkch0pb0rkch0p Member Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    What does tab do? I press it and I crouch and glow blue.. but what do I do? I tried using powers and didn't feel like anything changed?

    Chains of BL.. no longer does damage.. just holds target. I find this odd.. but I guess changes are changes.. just have to use new powers.

    Post edited by b0rkch0p on
  • stormfury#6869 stormfury Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    Why is that my Devoted Healer based Cleric has to choose between 2 DPS based skills for Feat #3? This really feels uninspired and silly.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    Why is that my Devoted Healer based Cleric has to choose between 2 DPS based skills for Feat #3? This really feels uninspired and silly.

    "Wide Flare" actually affects the now defunct Warding Flare which was not a DPS power at all. However, Warding Flare has been removed and replaced with Intercession, so this feat will be getting a change. This feat choices is meant to offer a utility choice, there are options like this on other classes as well, where you make two choices that don't directly tie into your primary role.

    Devout clerics will still have plenty of opportunity to DPS between heals during group play, when their group is not making a lot of mistakes.
  • senordoeboysenordoeboy Member Posts: 17 Arc User
    No buffs, no debuffs, What is the point of the DC class now... it nothing more then a pathetic health stone. Why play the Class I love. Why even play the game.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    adinosii said:

    About the knockback.....I took a lvl 1 cleric and played through the first few levels ... having the knockback is highly useful in solo play at low levels...buys you a few extra seconds when you are getting swarmed.

    This is basically the reason it still exists. In solo play, and when used appropriately in group play, such as re-positioning ranged enemies to get them into a pack for AoEs, it can be effective. Ultimately, sun burst is not the biggest DPS tool, so we decided to offer a feat that simultaneously made it a better tool for a DPS build, and prevented it from knocking back, which is something you'd want when purely focusing on DPS.

    If you don't take that feat, we don't see it as a power you'd use in most group play environments, and that's okay, there are other options.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    I was very excited to try out these "changes". currently I run all endgame dungeons fairly easily on my OP and DC.
    First problem, all the gear I worked to build up for my companion, now is un-equippable, I get no way to fix this except spend money. My weapon enchantment was great for damage (Unparalleled Dread) now its about useless, I cant kill anything and I get 1 shotted by every single enemy....she has 50k power and 30k armor penetration but the logs imply I still don't have enough armor penetration because my damage is not buffed at all. I run my dc as dps, healer and buff/debuff, but it seems now the only options are dps or full healer. and currently I can dps as a dps class in any dungeon, in the castle never I tried on preview the warlock who was queued as "healer" was the top dps by far, and I my 16k guildless dc did less damage then a 11k dc because the artifact symbol of air was dealing 600k dmg to all enemies in an AOE.
    every single enemy that hit me killed me. and I am doing about 1-5% the damage I do on live currently.
    my divinity gain is abysmal, waited to fill it to use soul sight on 1st boss and it was about pointless, still doing no damage. cant keep myself or anyone else alive with Incidental healing from repurposeful soul which was a key part of my builds.
    dealing damage and healing builds no bonus divinity and the "pips of fire" mechanic and also the tab key are about useless.
    to dps as dc we need much higher divinity gain.
    the new feat system makes it so your build requires certain powers to always be used. this is terrible.
    and now I have no buffing abilites at all, hallowed ground is a defense boost and break the spirit deals damage and that's it.
    with changes this big I don't think there was any proper introduction to what stats we would now need and not need, its make it a giant guessing game for me anyway.
    that's my input, thanks for making the game

    First of all, I'd like to apologize that you had such a negative initial experience. However, I really appreciate that you took the time to come onto the forums and outline what issues you ran into. Also, thanks for being so nice about what sounds like a lot of totally frustrating issues.

    In regards to your damage coming in under the healing warlock: we're aware that Soulweaver is in a bit of a messed up spot at the moment. Their DPS is too high and their healing is too low, we'll be making a pass over them ASAP to bring them more in line.

    In regards to the artifact dealing a ton of damage, we're aware that some artifacts and mount powers that are dealing unexpectedly high damage, these of course are going to completely invalidate any attempt to compare damage with someone who is using one. Those should be fixed for the next preview build.

    In regards to your ability to deal damage as an arbiter. Arbiter is in a pretty good place in terms of damage dealing from our internal tests, but we've had a lot more time to play around with the changes. Keep playing around with your build and trying things out. Things have changed a lot.

    The judgement mechanic you are talking about which gives you stacks of radiant or burning judgement is hardly useless. You shouldn't be using encounters or dailies without a full charge of the proper element, as they dramatically boost the damage of those spells. Additionally, you can burn extra pips with channel divinity to get your divinity back much, much faster.

    In regards to you dying from a single hit, what enemies were killing you in a single hit? Some of our dungeons still need additional adjustments, it is definitely not the case that in all dungeons, clerics are being killed in a single hit, so that's a bug. With the possible exception of highly telegraphed abilities that give you ample of time to dodge, you should be able to take a few hits before dying if you have proper equipment.

    Finally, in regards to incidental healing, sources of incidental healing are intentionally gone. Healing is now an active role which should require a dedicated healer in group content. This change is so that we can provide more interesting and varied challenges, and so that taking damage can be something meaningful, allowing us to provide punishment for mistakes beyond simply killing players outright (which is not always an appropriate response for making a single mistake!)

  • glowingemberglowingember Member Posts: 181 Arc User
    I would like to add that it is not very clear what is physical damage or magical damage. I'm assuming that radiant and fire are magical damage - but there is nothing that clearly points that out. This make choosing stat allocation difficult.

    As to the judgement mechanic. As someone who looked at it today, i'm struck with horrible flashbacks of spell weaving from many mods back. I don't really know what to say about this - i understand there are people who hate the divinity empowerment system. Perhaps we should avoid spellchaining completely since the gui is simply not helping to make anything easier here. The reason he feels the mechanic is not helping is because it is not clear what powers need to used to properly trigger the bonus damge.

    for example. flamestrike is a radiant power that grants 1 radiant pip. it burns up radiance to give bonus damage. Really ? it's not fire ? I would expect flamestrike to use fire to boost it and hammer to use radiant.

    i'm just coming to grips with these changes. Perhaps make radiant powers have a yellow tooltip and fire powers have a red tooltip ?

    thanks a bunch.
  • glowingemberglowingember Member Posts: 181 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    I really do like the sunburst upgrade to deal more damage at the cost of knockback. I would love to see more power evolutions everywhere.

    edit : exalt into divine might - brief periods the dc fights like a warrior. good times
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    I would like to add that it is not very clear what is physical damage or magical damage. I'm assuming that radiant and fire are magical damage - but there is nothing that clearly points that out. This make choosing stat allocation difficult.

    As to the judgement mechanic. As someone who looked at it today, i'm struck with horrible flashbacks of spell weaving from many mods back. I don't really know what to say about this - i understand there are people who hate the divinity empowerment system. Perhaps we should avoid spellchaining completely since the gui is simply not helping to make anything easier here. The reason he feels the mechanic is not helping is because it is not clear what powers need to used to properly trigger the bonus damge.

    for example. flamestrike is a radiant power that grants 1 radiant pip. it burns up radiance to give bonus damage. Really ? it's not fire ? I would expect flamestrike to use fire to boost it and hammer to use radiant.

    i'm just coming to grips with these changes. Perhaps make radiant powers have a yellow tooltip and fire powers have a red tooltip ?

    thanks a bunch.

    It can take a little getting used to, but Flamestrike is not a radiant power, it is a fire power. Powers consume charges of their own type to deal more damage, and generate charges of the other type.

    Its best to think of it in terms of a scale, fire spells tip the scale towards radiance, and when you finally cast a radiant spell it does extra damage and starts tipping it back towards fire.

    In the closed beta the elements were reversed. The effect was the same, but fire spells granted fire stacks, and then those increased radiant damage, and visa-versa. Feedback was mostly that it was confusing that way, but both ways take a little getting used to. We may change it back as feedback continues.

  • poiupp09poiupp09 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    DCs have gone from the strongest buffer/debuffer in the game, to having zero buffs/debuffs. Are you coming out with more paragon paths as was originally stated? I remember a statement saying 5 paragon paths per class. Buffing and debuffing is always near the top of what's desired, DC seems like it will be a completely unwanted and unnecessary class in the game now because of this. I really think for example the way of choosing feats now and the reduced number of powers available makes the game much more rigid in how you can play, which is not good. More paragon paths per class would help with this problem.
  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    poiupp09 said:

    DCs have gone from the strongest buffer/debuffer in the game, to having zero buffs/debuffs. Are you coming out with more paragon paths as was originally stated? I remember a statement saying 5 paragon paths per class. Buffing and debuffing is always near the top of what's desired, DC seems like it will be a completely unwanted and unnecessary class in the game now because of this.

    They're trying to shift the paradigm from buff focus to heal focus. We'll see how it works out when the dust settles, but it looks like the goal now is to make healing in group content more necessary and to make support DCs into actual healers. Some players will be thrilled, and others will ...not be thrilled.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    poiupp09 said:

    DCs have gone from the strongest buffer/debuffer in the game, to having zero buffs/debuffs. Are you coming out with more paragon paths as was originally stated? I remember a statement saying 5 paragon paths per class. Buffing and debuffing is always near the top of what's desired, DC seems like it will be a completely unwanted and unnecessary class in the game now because of this.

    Vorphied is correct, we are moving away from a paradigm where buffs and debuffs feature prominently. On the other hand, tanking and healing will now be absolutely necessary for challenging group content. The Devout is a dedicated healer while the Arbiter is a dedicated DPS.

    That being said, Cleric does not have "zero buffs/debuffs," in fact, they do have Break the Spirit, Geas, and Hallowed Ground.
  • poiupp09poiupp09 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    poiupp09 said:

    DCs have gone from the strongest buffer/debuffer in the game, to having zero buffs/debuffs. Are you coming out with more paragon paths as was originally stated? I remember a statement saying 5 paragon paths per class. Buffing and debuffing is always near the top of what's desired, DC seems like it will be a completely unwanted and unnecessary class in the game now because of this.

    Vorphied is correct, we are moving away from a paradigm where buffs and debuffs feature prominently. On the other hand, tanking and healing will now be absolutely necessary for challenging group content. The Devout is a dedicated healer while the Arbiter is a dedicated DPS.

    That being said, Cleric does not have "zero buffs/debuffs," in fact, they do have Break the Spirit, Geas, and Hallowed Ground.
    Oh alright, I leave it up to you to try redesigning the game into something better. I did like that I was master buffer that's all.
  • xsmallz14xxsmallz14x Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    I personally hated the Buff meta... I play a Healer to heal. BUT with that said I also feel like cleric still needs the ability to provide SOME buffs. Like Hallowed Ground is a shell of what it use to be and its sad to look at as well as use with how nerfed it got. I just wish cleric could keep the healing it has (although its healing does need work it feels super clunky at the current time) while also being able to provide some tiny buff potential to the group.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    I personally hated the Buff meta... I play a Healer to heal. BUT with that said I also feel like cleric still needs the ability to provide SOME buffs. Like Hallowed Ground is a shell of what it use to be and its sad to look at as well as use with how nerfed it got. I just wish cleric could keep the healing it has (although its healing does need work it feels super clunky at the current time) while also being able to provide some tiny buff potential to the group.

    Pre module 16 was a crazy world where absolutely insane percentages and effects were on powers. Hallowed Ground is still a 10% reduction in damage taken for anyone standing in it, and a heal over time. That's nothing to sneeze at. It's hard to imagine how good that can be though, when compared with the old world where you'd stack tons of huge buffs. However, now that enemies are being balanced so that damage values are not so ridiculous, smaller buffs like this will make a bigger difference.

    And as a result of the buffs being reasonable values, you won't have the case where in normal fights you just die if you're unbuffed. Instead, buffs are a way to increase divinity management efficiency, or necessary in very difficult fights.

    That being said, I'm assuming you mostly have offensive buffs and debuffs on your mind. Devout clerics do have access to the Anointed Arms feat which does give Anointed Army a damage enhancing component. Also, arbiter clerics do have break the spirit which increases the target's damage taken from magic and projectiles. Arbiter is the only class which can increase the target's damage taken by two damage types with a single power, a nod to cleric's longstanding role as the master of buffs and debuffs.
  • glowingemberglowingember Member Posts: 181 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    asterdahl said:

    I would like to add that it is not very clear what is physical damage or magical damage. I'm assuming that radiant and fire are magical damage - but there is nothing that clearly points that out. This make choosing stat allocation difficult.

    Perhaps we should avoid spellchaining completely since the gui is simply not helping to make anything easier here. The reason he feels the mechanic is not helping is because it is not clear what powers need to used to properly trigger the bonus damge.

    i'm just coming to grips with these changes. Perhaps make radiant powers have a yellow tooltip and fire powers have a red tooltip ?

    It can take a little getting used to, but Flamestrike is not a radiant power, it is a fire power. Powers consume charges of their own type to deal more damage, and generate charges of the other type.

    Its best to think of it in terms of a scale, fire spells tip the scale towards radiance, and when you finally cast a radiant spell it does extra damage and starts tipping it back towards fire.

    In the closed beta the elements were reversed. The effect was the same, but fire spells granted fire stacks, and then those increased radiant damage, and visa-versa. Feedback was mostly that it was confusing that way, but both ways take a little getting used to. We may change it back as feedback continues.


    i tried to edit this down to the most basic problem i was having.

    Is it possible to have the powers grouped into three areas in the power menu.

    1 for fire spells

    1 for radiant spells

    and one for everything else? This is probably the clearest way i can think of, about making it clear which order you oshould spell chain in. If that was clear - then i would have no issues - as it is i will have to write down all this information onto paper and sort it out. I would much rather bang my head farming influence - i mean - i need influence - influence is life...

    if this spellchaining could be explained more clearly in game, than i would have no issues.

    I rememebr in mod 6 we tested divinity spells and empowered, each slotted power had its own counter for empowering charges and people hated casting the same spell 3 times in a row to get to the empowered version. so far the fire and radiant method seems clunky to me. There was spell weaving which, if i remember correctly was cast three heal spells to get a more dangerous damage spell, or three damage spells to get a more dangerous heal spell.

    the knowledge of which spell is boosted by fire and which spell is boosted by radiant is where the broken telephone is happening.

    thanks!

  • xsmallz14xxsmallz14x Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    As someone who has played neverwinter forever I still think removing the damage buff from hallowed ground is punishing it. The daily is now the size of dinner plate. Also that was how Hallowed Ground worked LONNGGGG ago IDK how many mods ago but it use to heal allies on it. Its healing is also not the strongest either it heals a small tick. But also I am talking about defensive buffs. Astral shield is basically impractical to use for the most part. But an old thing you could do was have foresight which was a small damage reduction that could be passed on through healing allies. I just feel Cleric got nerfed in a lot of ways that make it feel weird to play (it could be im not use to trying to play it this new way but from my healing build in Mod 15 this pales in comparison and it hardly buffs just makes sure that all my team has damage resist and temp hp to soak)
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    asterdahl said:

    I would like to add that it is not very clear what is physical damage or magical damage. I'm assuming that radiant and fire are magical damage - but there is nothing that clearly points that out. This make choosing stat allocation difficult.

    Perhaps we should avoid spellchaining completely since the gui is simply not helping to make anything easier here. The reason he feels the mechanic is not helping is because it is not clear what powers need to used to properly trigger the bonus damge.

    i'm just coming to grips with these changes. Perhaps make radiant powers have a yellow tooltip and fire powers have a red tooltip ?

    It can take a little getting used to, but Flamestrike is not a radiant power, it is a fire power. Powers consume charges of their own type to deal more damage, and generate charges of the other type.

    Its best to think of it in terms of a scale, fire spells tip the scale towards radiance, and when you finally cast a radiant spell it does extra damage and starts tipping it back towards fire.

    In the closed beta the elements were reversed. The effect was the same, but fire spells granted fire stacks, and then those increased radiant damage, and visa-versa. Feedback was mostly that it was confusing that way, but both ways take a little getting used to. We may change it back as feedback continues.


    i tried to edit this down to the most basic problem i was having.

    Is it possible to have the powers grouped into three areas in the power menu.

    1 for fire spells

    1 for radiant spells

    and one for everything else? This is probably the clearest way i can think of, about making it clear which order you oshould spell chain in. If that was clear - then i would have no issues - as it is i will have to write down all this information onto paper and sort it out. I would much rather bang my head farming influence - i mean - i need influence - influence is life...

    if this spellchaining could be explained more clearly in game, than i would have no issues.

    I rememebr in mod 6 we tested divinity spells and empowered, each slotted power had its own counter for empowering charges and people hated casting the same spell 3 times in a row to get to the empowered version. so far the fire and radiant method seems clunky to me. There was spell weaving which, if i remember correctly was cast three heal spells to get a more dangerous damage spell, or three damage spells to get a more dangerous heal spell.

    the knowledge of which spell is boosted by fire and which spell is boosted by radiant is where the broken telephone is happening.

    thanks!

    Just to be clear, powers do actually indicate in their text the following: what type of damage they do, what judgement empowers them, and which judgment they provide as well as how many charges of that judgement they provide.

    We may consider further options to make this even more clear, but give it a few days of messing around with it, and let us know if you're still confused. We'd rather not splinter the character power sheet between classes for something that after a few days of playing with becomes fairly intuitive. That being said, it may not become intuitive after a few days, so we appreciate your continued feedback.

    As someone who has played neverwinter forever I still think removing the damage buff from hallowed ground is punishing it. The daily is now the size of dinner plate. Also that was how Hallowed Ground worked LONNGGGG ago IDK how many mods ago but it use to heal allies on it. Its healing is also not the strongest either it heals a small tick. But also I am talking about defensive buffs. Astral shield is basically impractical to use for the most part. But an old thing you could do was have foresight which was a small damage reduction that could be passed on through healing allies. I just feel Cleric got nerfed in a lot of ways that make it feel weird to play (it could be im not use to trying to play it this new way but from my healing build in Mod 15 this pales in comparison and it hardly buffs just makes sure that all my team has damage resist and temp hp to soak)

    Leaving Hallowed Ground aside for now, as I urge you to keep playing around with it in group content, Astral Shield is another spell that takes some getting used to but is not at all impractical. It also provides a significant mitigation buff and a decent heal over time. You can also start and stop channeling it as you wish, and use it remotely.

    You can get some serious divinity efficiency using hallowed ground and healing word instead of bastion of health, leaving you with more divinity to deal damage. Hallowed ground is also excellent to throw up before a tank buster or a huge party-wide damage along with hallowed ground.

    In terms of temporary health and shields, we've made a deliberate reduction to these. Because we'd like to bring enemy damage down to something reasonable, so that players aren't exploding when they don't have buffs, we needed to remove things like that, as they would totally trivialize damage values that were balanced against players without those shields or temporary hit points.

    That said, paladin does have a few shields built into their powers (though much smaller than pre Module 16.) Cleric is primarily focused on bigger heals and heal over times, with a straightforward, reactionary healing style, while Paladin is slightly more focused on a more mitigative and preparatory healing style.
  • panteleeleepanteleelee Member Posts: 289 Arc User
    Big question: Now bonding give us the gift power from healing or only base power counts for healing?

    Taylor DC/DO & AC Buff/Debuff - Guild Gutbusters Brigade - PVE
    May the Torm of Understanding guide us!
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    Big question: Now bonding give us the gift power from healing or only base power counts for healing?

    I'm not sure precisely what you're asking about "gift power", but if something increases the power on your character sheet, it increases the effectiveness of your healing.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,426 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    Big question: Now bonding give us the gift power from healing or only base power counts for healing?

    I'm not sure precisely what you're asking about "gift power", but if something increases the power on your character sheet, it increases the effectiveness of your healing.
    he means companions gift. getting the bonding stone when your companion strikes


  • mrimsogoodmrimsogood Member Posts: 118 Arc User
    Does a DC nolonger powershare?
  • seveninchbladeseveninchblade Member Posts: 75 Arc User

    Does a DC nolonger powershare?

    No. Powersharing is no longer in the game.
    Charisma was my dump stat.
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