To the players telling the devs how to 'fix' M16: No.

arakk00
arakk00 Member Posts: 166 Arc User
You are precisely the same group of people that resulted in the dumpster fire that was Mod 6- the dev's first attempt to do something like this. What mod 6 needed was a no-holds-barred overhaul of a lot of core systems for long-term sustainability and continued scaling, which is what mod16 promises. The PRECISE tone I'm seeing about the incredible core design changes for the game is the reason we got the half-assed debacle that we've suffered the aftermath of forever and a half. You didn't want to give up lifesteal, you didn't want your precious enchants nerfed, you didn't want.. Anything. So we got an objectively worse form of lifesteal, a full health or dead combat style, impossible to balance disparities between classes and specs, and TEN whole mods built on that shaky foundation.

It's time to let change happen, and realize you are NOT game developers. Listening to your contradictory 'feedback'- mostly aimless complaining- has been tried, and proven to be totally awful for the game. Unless you've spent thousands of man-hours poring over balance curves, hundreds of high-end dungeon logs, the mindboggling history of bugs in Neverwinter, and the source Dungeons and Dragons content this game is meant to adhere to, your feedback is largely not valid- no matter how many people agree.

Just as a couple examples: Lifesteal is almost nonexistent in D&D, and for good reason. It's a toxic stat, and backlash against the idea of outright removing it is the only reason we got 'better Lifesteal (tm)' in Mod 6, with the obnoxious damage tilt to 'balance' it. In the source D&D material, specifically the Fifth Edition that all new modules are being released in, DPS classes- ESPECIALLY rogues- are by design vulnerable to sustained damage. They're dependent on positioning, unique defensive mechanics like Uncanny Dodge, and raw damage or control strength to spread their meager health pool further- because once their health drops, it's not likely they're getting it back in a hurry, much less constantly staying maxed out. In D&D, this creates room for high-tension, low-hitpoints situations that deepen immersion and reinforce the prominence of a healer- or lack thereof. Without lifesteal, Neverwinter finally has this design space open; so long as lifesteal exists in any viable form, a game can't really tap into that kind of adrenaline-pumping action for more than a split-second.

And now, recovery. The closest thing to Recovery in D&D is.. Literally nothing. Though cooldowns -are- much different, tabletop D&D provides you with a limited number of spells or class feature uses. Sometimes you get some back on a short rest (which you might get a few of between long rests), most often you get them back on a long rest (equivalent to a night's sleep). Spells (like cantrips) and basic attacks which are not limited to a set number of uses are your bread and butter- but these 'long cooldown' spell slots and features are, as they say, 'worth the wait'. In D&D, a high level spell slot can LITERALLY open a gateway to the Abyss, or Wish yourself into a dragon, or turn a city into a crater. While not viable from a balance perspective for a game like Neverwinter, removing Recovery as a stat allows the developers to more accurately get a handle on DPS cadence- and tune your encounters and dailies to not just be closer to each other in damage potential over various situations, but to give those 'feel like a literal god' moments that its tabletop inspiration can offer.

There is a reason like this for EVERY. SINGLE. MAJOR. CHANGE.

The devs didn't just throw their hands up and say 'Let's do everything and screw up all the players LOL!'. They finally decided to act like a team of professionals and make controversial changes to the foundations of almost every system in the game for long-term health and playability. Mod 16 may come out a dumpster fire like Mod 6. Hell, I'll be surprised if it doesn't have ANY big problems, with this many big changes. But in the end, it's a move in the opposite direction from Elemental Evil. It's crushing complex, hard to balance and use systems down into streamlined, intuitive ones that can be tweaked far more easily. It's reversing the damage/hp bloat of monsters and players (to a degree, at least). It's removing toxic systems that are antithetical to the fun gameplay not just we, but thousands of potential new and returning players want from the game.

For all intents and purposes, I expect Mod 16 to be the best one we'll ever have- if this rolls out properly, we'll have what Neverwinter always should have been. So don't whine about your enchants, or complain about losing lifesteal- or really, say much of anything negative. Let the developers do their job, and forget everything you would expect from a previous mod- this one is shaping up to be really different.
A <Friendly Dragon>!
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Comments

  • ralas96
    ralas96 Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    Thank you, completely agreed, could not have said it any better.
  • sgtpostal#4408
    sgtpostal#4408 Member Posts: 379 Arc User
    uda got a better response if uda blew ur whistle an said " pansy lifesteal complainers to the left an recovery complainers to the right atenhut!!!! move it move it move it!!!!! (drill sgt. leader song kicks in)
  • havlocke
    havlocke Member Posts: 222 Arc User

    The people that need to stop, are the ones telling everyone else to stop "complaining."

    The fact is, completely changing EVERYTHING does nothing but alienate those who enjoy the game already.

    It is also a fact that existing customers are inherently more profitable than customers a company has yet to acquire.



    That said, I agree that a lot of folks should calm down. But straight up saying the devs know better than the people that use their service, is an inherently flawed assertion.



    Good day sir.

    The problem is that the number of people who are "enjoying the game already" is being fast outpaced by the number of people who feel "this is no longer an enjoyable game". True, existing customers RIGHT NOW are more profitable than future potential customers. But if player numbers keep dropping - which every indication says it is - then keeping to the status quo is a surefire plan to failure.

    My playgroup is a case in point. We've played MMOs for decades. We only started playing NVW for the last year or so. We really enjoyed it in the beginning but the game is now really starting to irritate some of us. From the crazy jump in values between one campaign and another. The drops that are obsolete. The REWARDs that are obsolete. The constant bugs. And the fact that there is no viable endgame builds unless you play the cookie cutter builds. Hell, there are non viable CLASSES, let alone builds for endgame.

    As the OP says, this could all end in tragedy and a dumpster fire. And past experience is not making me (or probably anybody here) optimistic. But the alternative is no future. Kudos to the Devs to have the balls to pull the pin on this grenade.




  • havlocke
    havlocke Member Posts: 222 Arc User
    I don't know if the Devs know better than the players that use their service. But if the Devs are willing to do the absolutely last ditch effort of revamping their entire core game, then you'd think they would have reason to. As much as I lack faith in Game Devs in general, even I would baulk at thinking of Devs shooting themselves in the chest just for the fun of it.
  • frogwalloper#6494
    frogwalloper#6494 Member Posts: 821 Arc User
    I certainly hope it's not a, "last ditch effort." That's a depressing thought.
    I'm all for the changes and crossing my fingers that it gets the results they want.
  • arakk00
    arakk00 Member Posts: 166 Arc User
    havlocke said:

    I don't know if the Devs know better than the players that use their service. But if the Devs are willing to do the absolutely last ditch effort of revamping their entire core game, then you'd think they would have reason to. As much as I lack faith in Game Devs in general, even I would baulk at thinking of Devs shooting themselves in the chest just for the fun of it.

    The devs don't always know how players are -using- their game better than the players, sure. Devs might be out of touch with metagaming, or unaware of public sentiment below the direct surface.

    HOWEVER- my point in this post is that game developers, this team in particular, are PROFESSIONALS with years of experience. Assuming this rolls out as described, the tiny number of people upset by the loss of things like Lifesteal and the old feat system will be far outstripped by the huge number of people able to properly get into the game and enjoy a build type that was previously far less viable. Not just that, but even if they lose HALF of the current population- the resultant core game will be a healthier, more complete product from a development and balancing standpoint; they'd easily recoup those losses in a handful of months pulling in players they lost to previous states of the game, and new players entirely, simply by tweaking the new, more robust systems. And THAT is the important thing to take away here: Realize it or not, there are a lot of barriers in the way of the game being truly awesome. The devs are seemingly tired of those barriers and taking a wrecking ball to 'em so they can deliver a better and better game as time rolls on.
    A <Friendly Dragon>!
  • dingrong
    dingrong Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 65 Arc User
    i say NO to the players who are saying NO to the players TELLING THE DEVS HOW TO 'FIX' M16 ..

    i told devs how to fix m16 and they must obey
  • manipulos
    manipulos Member Posts: 235 Arc User
    Nice write-up @arakk00

    They can't stay 100% true to tabletop D&D though, this is an action combat MMO. There's no dungeon master to follow each player/party around and customize the content to the class(es) being played.
  • finmakin
    finmakin Member Posts: 398 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    This is a well written opening post, I couldn't have done that better.. Kudo's
    As for Life steal and Recovery goes and their removal from Mod 16, I do not shed a single tear about these removals (which affects me too, as being a OP).

    Let me start to state that I am an so called "old school player", which means (in my case) that I am a totally pure tank/heal OP (no power based hybrid with 200k HP).
    The result I have is being able to literally absorb massive amounts of incoming damage in Prot mode.
    The result I have is being able to literally dish out massive amounts towards the group in Dev mode.
    To be able to do this I am carrying 2 sets of gear (enchanted and all)… People I group with on a regular base are knowing what I am talking about.

    Life steal, is something which has ruined (imho) this game for the simple reason that this thing made the pure healers almost become obsolete, especially considering the high demands of buffing's... Most of them (who I know) where forced to swap to Buffing/DPS.. A Cleric shouldn't have to take the DPS role, there are other classes for that part.

    Recovery, same thing as Life steal... It shouldn't be needed in this game.
    At this point I am forced to maintain a high recovery gain just for the sole reason to be able to shield the group for incoming damage (a light and a heavy one). Downside of this is that players (knowing that they are buffed to the max and being shielded by tank) have become lazy and just keep standing in boss empowered attack's (red)
    Same thing count's for GF's when they have KV activated..

    By stripping these two stats from game will force players to play the role their char is designed for and play the game as it should be by adjusting their playstyle to the game, instead of the other way around... Which made the mess as it is at current state.
    I think the K-team weekly runs are a small taste on what is coming in mod 16, it forces players to play as it should be, especially at dynamic boss mechanics (ECC and EGWD as example)..

    It is about time that a game like this is receiving a massive overhaul and bring back the thrilling challenges dungeons can give.
    For players who are not agreed with these upcoming changes in Neverwinter I say, There are many other MMO's available.

    Rest me to say, I really looking forward to mod 16... So I wil have the challenge again to die in battle, instead of committing suicide when I am the only one standing, caused by lazy people.

    Before I forget, Dev's should also work on disabling that frigging DPS list window during fights, which will result that players are more focused on what is really happening during a fight.
    Post edited by finmakin on
    Ogguk The Beholder… Justicar Paladin
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  • thefiresidecat
    thefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    havlocke said:

    The people that need to stop, are the ones telling everyone else to stop "complaining."

    The fact is, completely changing EVERYTHING does nothing but alienate those who enjoy the game already.

    It is also a fact that existing customers are inherently more profitable than customers a company has yet to acquire.



    That said, I agree that a lot of folks should calm down. But straight up saying the devs know better than the people that use their service, is an inherently flawed assertion.



    Good day sir.

    The problem is that the number of people who are "enjoying the game already" is being fast outpaced by the number of people who feel "this is no longer an enjoyable game". True, existing customers RIGHT NOW are more profitable than future potential customers. But if player numbers keep dropping - which every indication says it is - then keeping to the status quo is a surefire plan to failure.

    My playgroup is a case in point. We've played MMOs for decades. We only started playing NVW for the last year or so. We really enjoyed it in the beginning but the game is now really starting to irritate some of us. From the crazy jump in values between one campaign and another. The drops that are obsolete. The REWARDs that are obsolete. The constant bugs. And the fact that there is no viable endgame builds unless you play the cookie cutter builds. Hell, there are non viable CLASSES, let alone builds for endgame.

    As the OP says, this could all end in tragedy and a dumpster fire. And past experience is not making me (or probably anybody here) optimistic. But the alternative is no future. Kudos to the Devs to have the balls to pull the pin on this grenade.




    except this next build is probably going to be exactly all the things you just stated lol.
  • finmakin
    finmakin Member Posts: 398 Arc User
    Hmm.. somehow my reaction got deleted
    Ogguk The Beholder… Justicar Paladin
    Puny Tank

    Guildleader of NWLC Alpha
  • akemnos
    akemnos Member Posts: 597 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    looks like your post was removed entirely. was trying to quote it but it seems to be gone.
  • silverkelt
    silverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    After years of playing.. I can summarize these changes thus..

    They sale power.. they nerf power.. they sale power.. they nerf power.

    Expect to see more..

    Whatever, is my reaction .. I just want a exchange for enchants.
  • finmakin
    finmakin Member Posts: 398 Arc User
    akemnos said:

    looks like your post was removed entirely. was trying to quote it but it seems to be gone.

    Weird, I don't believe I stated something which is against the forum rules

    Ogguk The Beholder… Justicar Paladin
    Puny Tank

    Guildleader of NWLC Alpha
  • minotaur2857
    minotaur2857 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,140 Arc User
    arakk00 said:


    It's time to let change happen, and realize you are NOT game developers. Listening to your contradictory 'feedback'- mostly aimless complaining- has been tried, and proven to be totally awful for the game. Unless you've spent thousands of man-hours poring over balance curves, hundreds of high-end dungeon logs, the mindboggling history of bugs in Neverwinter, and the source Dungeons and Dragons content this game is meant to adhere to, your feedback is largely not valid- no matter how many people agree.

    NEVER assume, some of us ARE involved on the other side of the fence in other games and have played D&D for 35 years so aware of the source.

    Listening to the forums has also been proved to give a very narrow band of opinions, not in tune with the mass of players of the game.

    The problem mainly seems to be (from the chat channels I see) that the devs are trying to favour new players and BiS people over people who've been here since beta but like alting or play casually and whose mains are 13-16K. Maybe they're right and those people will spend more real money, but there is a backlash from people who have spent 4-6 years nurturing a character to now be told it's being changed beyond all recognition.


  • xxmantaraxx
    xxmantaraxx Member Posts: 361 Arc User
    My humble opinion: A bit of a ramble from an old player (not the longest played, I started my account the day after Caturday)

    I have put NWO on the back burner for a while. I will log in for fun events to do with friends (winter/summer) but other than that I have not had a lot of joy out of the game. Chult was a godless grind, almost to the level of SKT/SoMI, and with the latest I got fed up with grinding acorns in about a week. The end game mechanics of full health or dead gave me no joy and no desire to play again once completed. (side note, I never finished castel ravenloft because 3 out of 3 attempts had the animated armor fight glitch out and I couldn't bring myself to do the damage sponge insta death sisters fight again) To me the content has lost the skill and charm it once had. The power creep replacing strategic encounters and zone quests with over the top repeating of convoluted kill and fetch quests to artificially slow module completion progress.

    I still have over 100 days of vip and I have started to have a hard time finding a reason to log in, even if just to invoke on my mains and grab my key. The recent disclosures about coming changes are exciting, many of these changes were talked about pre mod 6 as solutions to the life steal and in combat regen removing healers from the game. Keeping LS in the game unchecked caused survivability builds like sentinel for GWF to not just take a back seat but completely disappear from the game. In the coming mods since 6 healing was gone, its all about buffs and DPS, removing any strategy besides multi DC, OP and DPS. plainly, its not fun any more. I miss old CN when the team had to work together, when playing a DC made you sweat, when DPS had to disengage to avoid the red...

    Any way, let it happen and stop the doom and gloom. If a person like me with good monies to spend on a game they love and has no desire to support or play a game they love, something is wrong. I am inspired by the development teams bold actions to bring longevity to the game. I look forward to playing the new mod. I look forward to playing all my favorite characters and building new specs again. I will forever reserve my judgement until the product is in my hands but I believe the developers are on the right path. Have a little faith and keep the forums positive. Between the devs vision, the preview players reporting and the amazing forum community we will see awesome things unfold in our favorite online mmo.

    I will be there when undermountain launches and I hope to see all you adventurers there with me.

    Ara Atheanes GWF
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    Sarasin Atheanes SW
    Jerkface McGee HR
    -MANTARA- OP

  • dread4moor
    dread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    You make some valid points about the need for the game to change and the potential benefits of the described changes.

    Neither you nor the "complainers" know for certain if these changes will be good or bad in the long run.
    So I disagree with telling FTP players and customers (who keep the game alive) to "shut up and stop complaining".

    I am cautiously optimistic, with some real misgivings about the implementation of these changes.
    I will wait and play on preview before outright condemning or singing the praises of Mod 16.

    But if I feel like expressing my misgivings, that is my right. Deal with it or ignore it.
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  • kemnimtarkas
    kemnimtarkas Member Posts: 831 Arc User
    arakk00 said:

    You are precisely the same group of people that resulted in the dumpster fire that was Mod 6- .....

    But...what else will we talk about?

    Sermonizing on the death of the game because of rumored changes by the evil devs is the fundamental purpose of this forum...

    Seriously OP, you need to get your priorities sorted out.
  • kreatyve
    kreatyve Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,539 Community Moderator
    finmakin said:

    akemnos said:

    looks like your post was removed entirely. was trying to quote it but it seems to be gone.

    Weird, I don't believe I stated something which is against the forum rules

    Your comment had found it's way to the spam queue for editing it too quickly. It's been restored and your account has been verified so it shouldn't happen to you again. Sorry about that.
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  • ordinaryplayer#2642
    ordinaryplayer#2642 Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    dingrong said:

    i say NO to the players who are saying NO to the players TELLING THE DEVS HOW TO 'FIX' M16 ..

    i told devs how to fix m16 and they must obey

    Ok if they can't listen to me .. listen to .. mm .. this random guy.


    But...what else will we talk about?

    Also that. These posts are released to intentionally drum up chatter and hit a few news sites. (Not that MMO companies are ever really good at blog posts).
    arakk00 said:


    Just as a couple examples: Lifesteal is almost nonexistent in D&D, and for good reason

    But most seriously, we all know this ain't D&D, and ...
    manipulos said:


    They can't stay 100% true to tabletop D&D though, this is an action combat MMO. There's no dungeon master to follow each player/party around and customize the content to the class(es) being played.

    I hope the devs are taking time to fix things *fully*. And no, there's no problem in going "hey guys did you really think about X".
    arakk00 said:


    "It's time to let change happen, and realize you are NOT game developers"

    Darn, guess a few players lost their day/side jobs :p

    After years of playing.. I can summarize these changes thus..

    They sale power.. they nerf power.. they sale power.. they nerf power.

    Expect to see more..

    Shhhhh, people might figure this out or realize they're cash shop / auction house addicts.
  • merik1999
    merik1999 Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    as long as the Bsses do not have MILLION and MILLIONs of HP...this no lifesteal and reliance on healers sounds great....but if the monsters have too many Hit Points...this will not be a fun change...fingers crossed...It's going to be a rough learning curve, But i really think it will be better....Bru-Ha-Ha...
  • lldt
    lldt Member Posts: 201 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    ralas96 said:

    Thank you, completely agreed, could not have said it any better.

    Besides, the people complaining are SOME of the bis (or near) players that worry they will have to go through a huge rebuild to get back there. It's simply personal interest, nothing more (perfect example in the comment above about Movement and Dark enchantments). Anyone thinking their outrage about something that they haven't even tried is anything other than personal interest, is just kidding themselves.
    Post edited by lldt on
  • kemnimtarkas
    kemnimtarkas Member Posts: 831 Arc User

    <

    Shhhhh, people might figure this out or realize they're cash shop / auction house addicts.

    Yeah righ...

    ...Wait

    ...ahhhhhh maaaan

    ...now I feel so USED.
  • finmakin
    finmakin Member Posts: 398 Arc User
    kreatyve said:

    finmakin said:

    akemnos said:

    looks like your post was removed entirely. was trying to quote it but it seems to be gone.

    Weird, I don't believe I stated something which is against the forum rules

    Your comment had found it's way to the spam queue for editing it too quickly. It's been restored and your account has been verified so it shouldn't happen to you again. Sorry about that.
    Thanks for fixing this, I might have edited to fast.. I will keep note about that fact

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  • draugkir
    draugkir Member Posts: 99 Arc User
    No point telling them how to fix mod 16 simply because it is such na amount of badly done things and decisions that there is no way to fix it..