I would like to say I didn't even know what Master Crafting was for the longest time because I was always in my guild with my 6 friends who don't pvp, so we've been stuck at GH 2 forever. I heard about it in chat, but just figured it meant getting to 25 in all your profs. I had to look it up on the internet, where the actual explanation of what MC was and the GH 10 connection were buried on page 3 of some guy's crafting guide. It seems like there should be some in-game explanation or quest that unlocks when you meet the appropriate requirements to begin. You know, like there is for EVERYTHING ELSE. With the advent of the Workshop, i'm dumbfounded that they didn't make a MC questline that unlocked at max Workshop level after finishing the whole thing and having produced so many high quality +1 items, or something along those lines.
It seems like there should be some in-game explanation or quest that unlocks when you meet the appropriate requirements to begin.
There is, once your Guild Hall hits rank 10, possibly with Marketplace rank 5, and you have a crafting profession at level 70 (was 25 in the old system), there's a questline between the Master of Coin and the Artisan. As you progress through Masterworks it moves on to Port Nyanzaru.
I would like to say I didn't even know what Master Crafting was for the longest time because I was always in my guild with my 6 friends who don't pvp, so we've been stuck at GH 2 forever. I heard about it in chat, but just figured it meant getting to 25 in all your profs. I had to look it up on the internet, where the actual explanation of what MC was and the GH 10 connection were buried on page 3 of some guy's crafting guide. It seems like there should be some in-game explanation or quest that unlocks when you meet the appropriate requirements to begin. You know, like there is for EVERYTHING ELSE. With the advent of the Workshop, i'm dumbfounded that they didn't make a MC questline that unlocked at max Workshop level after finishing the whole thing and having produced so many high quality +1 items, or something along those lines.
Yeah. People say that it should be elusive, and hard to get. "Marathon not sprint" etc. So gate it behind a Rank 4 Workshop and a series of quests. A rank 4 Workshop is either damned hard work or pretty damned expensive to attain. The associated quests should be likewise.
Personally, I'd be knackered, as I've got 10 R3 workshops that would need improving... but I'd prefer to have it genuinely be hard to get rather than simply a "here you go, for all your hard work in posting a guild request ten minutes ago and joining this guild, here's the Artisan..." system currently in use.
"here you go, for all your hard work in posting a guild request ten minutes ago and joining this guild, here's the Artisan..."
It's not as easy as you make it out to be. You don't become a Masterworks crafter simply by joining a guild that has the Artisan. You still need to put in the time and expense to complete the quests. They are neither easy, quick or cheap.
"here you go, for all your hard work in posting a guild request ten minutes ago and joining this guild, here's the Artisan..."
It's not as easy as you make it out to be. You don't become a Masterworks crafter simply by joining a guild that has the Artisan. You still need to put in the time and expense to complete the quests. They are neither easy, quick or cheap.
So... people not being allowed access due to guild restrictions is balanced by the fact that for those who can have it will find it hard? Yeah, OK... if that's the best argument for why it should stay with GH10, then it's getting towards "clutching at straws" time.
Here goes... The point is that you get the quest from doing nothing other than being in a guild. That's irrelevant of whether you are a founder member who has ground the work out for months or years, or someone who started playing a few weeks ago, has one profession at max and joined the guild ten minutes ago, they can get the quest and begin the process.
It's not about the achievement of Mastercrafting, it's about who is allowed to even begin the process.
I understand that the process is hard, and it damn well should be.
Starting the process, however, is an imbalanced mess that reflects nothing to do with the character. Anyone who is capable of pursuing the time and effort you speak of should be allowed access based on whether they have got to the stage of the the new Professions system that would allow them to progress.
What that has to do with the level of your guild is like saying, "You can only have MC 2 if you have a Legendary Mount." It's a nonsensical restriction. "MC 3 is only for people with 5 active Legendary Companions..."
It would be stupid. Just as stupid as gating professions behind guild level.
As you point out, the entire process is hard, and time consuming, and expensive. Isn't that the argument people are making? That it should be elusive and exclusive? But it's OK for people who don't have the means to complete it, but are in the right guild, access, (and allow them to go on forums and moan about the RNG, and how hard it is to get the results they want.) while people who are perfectly equipped to throw currency, time and resources at doing it successfully are barred from even trying?
Its amazing to me the amount of complaining about a relatively simple gate on Masterwork, yet in the same breath everyone knows the work-around. Join a 10+ guild, pickup the quests, come back when you have the stuff. Maybe donate a thing or 2 to the hosting guild for the use of their artisan. Or plan ahead and make everything you need and only join once per MW level. Annoying, but a work around if your CHOICE is to play in a small guild.
Since people keep asking, Masterwork I weapons (like dragonflight gear) were originally tied to the stronghold. The original weapons weren't crafted, rather a crate of some kind was crafted and used as a currency to purchase Masterwork weapons from the stronghold vendor (same guy as dragonflight gear). To answer the ongoing question that all of the seasoned players who've supposedly been around since the creation of Strongholds, this is why Masterwork is tied to stronghold progression. Like anything tied to stronghold vendors, it required a certain level of guild hall (and marketplace) to obtain.
On the note of "Making it more accessible," they've done that repeatedly.
1. The creation of Vendors behind the Stronghold reduced the RNG needed for MW II and III. No longer are people crafting for weeks per profession. One 2xGM event and a little planning and players are through early MWII and most/all of MW III. Its a joke to even think about any level of difficulty in those steps as the only gate is guild marks. 2. The new Masterwork I is less about RNG and more about mass crafting. The +1 items needed now just take a small amount of time. There is no longer the RNG of getting the tier 3 result after the RNG of the hourly blue quests. There is no need to "rush" jobs for AD because your item came up that hour or buying overpriced items from the AH. If you already have a hammer, there is little/no time in unlocking this step compared to the previous level 3. The new system makes MW 2's last step easier. The MW II legendary items have a 75%ish chance of success without a supplement. This used to be a gate that would turn away players as it was 35% with a mythic forgehammer. Even when vendors came around, this was a dreaded step that is now a relatively easy chance of success. Also, players short on Guild marks can craft the ingredients at a much higher cost (as the purple MW tool wasn't given until AFTER this step). 4. There is one less profession to level and grow in MW, making this process a LOT cheaper.
All of that has made the first 3 levels mostly a joke in comparison to their earlier versions of those quests. Couple that with the natural market's sinking prices (Manticore stuff and Fartouched needed for IV crafts are cheap), it has never been easier to get into MW.
Keep in mind, Masterwork is optional. It doesn't gate ANYTHING in the game. You can be end game, BiS, and never touch a single profession. This is a choice. Like those who choose not to random queue and earn AD another way, like people who choose to buyout campaigns, choose to play in smaller guilds, and choose to not play with VIP, there are consequences to your choices. If you want this optional quest and character unlock, there's gates. One of them is joining a GH 10+ for a few minutes and it is really the easiest of steps in the masterwork process (even easier than buying your way to MWIII as you can now do).
while people who are perfectly equipped to throw currency, time and resources at doing it successfully are barred from even trying?
Your arguing in circles. They're not barred from trying, all they need to do is join a guild. But then, we're right back at the beginning of your argument that all they needed to do was join a guild.
It has to be gated somewhere. Doing so in the Workshop would be more logical, but the outcry and backlash from doing so would have been that much worse. Moving it to the Workshop would have hurt guilds as well. Those pursuing Masterworks donate to their guild and those in the alliance to gain guild marks so they can purchase the charts needed to get ingredients for the masterworks recipes. Those donations also allow the guild leaders to progress the stronghold, to put up the temporary vendors that anyone can use to purchase items to either sell to others or use themselves. There are probably very few Masterwork crafters that aren't in a guild, helping their guild or those in the alliance to grow. Or, I'm just an optimist and think that's the way it should be.
Why is it people only complain when they don't have access to something that could potentially make them a ton of AD?
I don't see tons of threads whining that you can't participate in a Dragonflight event unless you're in a guild.
I already suggested a simple workaround that would give people access to mastercrafting if not in a guild. But, since someone keeps repeating "Why can't we have mastercrafting if we're not in a guild", I suppose the simplest of answers as to the why is because it wasn't designed to be accessible to everybody in the first place.
Why is it people only complain when they don't have access to something that could potentially make them a ton of AD?
I don't see tons of threads whining that you can't participate in a Dragonflight event unless you're in a guild.
I already suggested a simple workaround that would give people access to mastercrafting if not in a guild. But, since someone keeps repeating "Why can't we have mastercrafting if we're not in a guild", I suppose the simplest of answers as to the why is because it wasn't designed to be accessible to everybody in the first place.
And the point is.... wait for it... that is BAD design.
What gives you the impression anything I've said has anything to do with making tons of AD? What have I said that gives you that impression? Anything at all... I'm in favour of equal access to MC for people who'd rather not treat other peoples' hard work as a freebie for themselves.
I guess you never saw any of the complaints about access to Dragonflight Armour back when it was essentially BiS then?
You honestly see a correlation between an event that takes place in a GUILD stronghold and an element of character development that tales place in a bespoke individual zone?
No one has yet given a rational explanation for why Mastercrafting is linked to guild and not workshop. "Because it wasn't designed to be accessible to everybody in the first place" isn't an answer or explanation, it's just repeating the state of the problem
while people who are perfectly equipped to throw currency, time and resources at doing it successfully are barred from even trying?
Your arguing in circles. They're not barred from trying, all they need to do is join a guild. But then, we're right back at the beginning of your argument that all they needed to do was join a guild.
It has to be gated somewhere. Doing so in the Workshop would be more logical, but the outcry and backlash from doing so would have been that much worse. Moving it to the Workshop would have hurt guilds as well. Those pursuing Masterworks donate to their guild and those in the alliance to gain guild marks so they can purchase the charts needed to get ingredients for the masterworks recipes. Those donations also allow the guild leaders to progress the stronghold, to put up the temporary vendors that anyone can use to purchase items to either sell to others or use themselves. There are probably very few Masterwork crafters that aren't in a guild, helping their guild or those in the alliance to grow. Or, I'm just an optimist and think that's the way it should be.
I'm arguing in circles because no one is making a sensible counter argument.
Why would there be a backlash? No one is suggesting the charts and ingredients or temporary vendors be removed from guilds, just the initial access to the quests. If someone then decides to pursue the necessary stuff via the AH they have the option. OR they can join a guild long term to use GMs. That way they have a choice. Gate it behind quests and adventure, don't make it easy for freeloaders to guild hop to gain something that should be EARNED.
And even if it DID cause a few people to get their panties in a bunch, it would make a nice change for that to happen because of something they did which would be, as you point out, MORE LOGICAL.
Cos I'll bet you a hot dog with relish right now that at some point this year (month, week, take your pick) Cryptic are going to do (lots of) something(s) that causes outcry and backlash, that makes no logical sense at all. Imagine if, just for once, they could turn round and say, "Yeah, we get it, a few of you are unhappy, but... this time what we did actually makes sense."
No one has yet given a rational explanation for why Mastercrafting is linked to guild and not workshop.
The only explanation, whether you deem it rational or not, is Masterworks was around before the Workshop and was already tied to stronghold quests, no need to change it.
Its amazing to me the amount of complaining about a relatively simple gate on Masterwork, yet in the same breath everyone knows the work-around. Join a 10+ guild, pickup the quests, come back when you have the stuff. Maybe donate a thing or 2 to the hosting guild for the use of their artisan. Or plan ahead and make everything you need and only join once per MW level. Annoying, but a work around if your CHOICE is to play in a small guild.
So, once more, if the work around is so easy. And completely defeats the object of the "Ooh... it's supposed to be hard to get... exclusive... elusive... special guilds only..." argument... What is the point of having it in the first place?
What amazes me is how many people are ardently defending something that is just plain stupid. I've not yet read one good reason why it remains the way it is, when an alleged complete overhaul of the system just took place.
It might have made sense back when it was a somewhat pointless plaything of the rich and powerful, and an enticement to develop the Stronghold system when that was fresh. Now its out of date.
I don't understand the mindset of "Why fix or replace something that's broken, when there's an annoying work around?"
No one has yet given a rational explanation for why Mastercrafting is linked to guild and not workshop. "Because it wasn't designed to be accessible to everybody in the first place" isn't an answer or explanation, it's just repeating the state of the problem
Since people keep asking, Masterwork I weapons (like dragonflight gear) were originally tied to the stronghold. The original weapons weren't crafted, rather a crate of some kind was crafted and used as a currency to purchase Masterwork weapons from the stronghold vendor (same guy as dragonflight gear). To answer the ongoing question that all of the seasoned players who've supposedly been around since the creation of Strongholds, this is why Masterwork is tied to stronghold progression. Like anything tied to stronghold vendors, it required a certain level of guild hall (and marketplace) to obtain.
You want the "Why?" Because initially it was ingrained in the process of being in a guild. You want to talk logical storyline progression, you take the crafting skills you learn in the workshop, gain recipes and help from the Skilled artisan in your guild, then move on to learn more from the crafters in Chult.
No one is suggesting the charts and ingredients or temporary vendors be removed from guilds, just the initial access to the quests. If someone then decides to pursue the necessary stuff via the AH they have the option. OR they can join a guild long term to use GMs. That way they have a choice. Gate it behind quests and adventure, don't make it easy for freeloaders to guild hop to gain something that should be EARNED.
And her you answered why it is STILL gated behind Guild hall. The materials for Masterwork are sold in charts within your guild. The farthest you would get in Masterwork would be completion of Masterwork I before you need materials from charts. Guess what, those require a certain Marketplace level and therefore, a certain Guild Hall level to purchase. Once unlocked, you can't progress until you have charts and supplies from the vendor.
You say yourself you have no problem with these items being sold in the Guild hall, but you do have issues with the initial quest being gated? Seems circular reasoning at this point.
@silvershard If you feel as if the argument is going around in circles it's quite possibly because you have a weak argument.
Is the design of gaining access to mastercrafting flawless? No. I actually did make a suggestion for an alternative to give access to the masses without giving them access to the goodies that come with being a part of a guild.
Is the design of entry into mastercrafting game breaking? Not at all. There are workarounds. Are they good? Are they bad? That's up to interpretation.
You call it a design flaw because the thinking behind how to gate entry is stupid to you. I have agreed that it makes little sense earlier. But to the system designer it may be doing exactly what was intended which makes it wai. Do you know the rationale? Maybe it was to FORCE people into guilds. You're arguing in a vacuum because you are a player and to you the end result is how it affects a player. To the designer, the end result is "did i get the player to do what i wanted them to".
You can keep in going in circles because there is no strong basis for changing it other than "well its an inconvenience for people to use the silly workaround".
At the end of the day, I've already said multiple times I agree with parts of your idea. But it's still a relatively minor inconvenience.
I don't see the point of this argument at all. It's pretty hard to find players NOT already in a guild, and it's unlikely that any guild isn't going to be in an Alliance with at least one level 20.
The masses already have full access.
Would it be nice if they updated the quests? ... Yup, they should do that especially if they refer to outdated items. And it would be logical if Master Crafting came from the Retainer in the future.
... but is master crafting gated? - Not really ... you have to go out of your way to **not** be in a decent guild. They're pretty much always recruiting.
Comments
People say that it should be elusive, and hard to get. "Marathon not sprint" etc.
So gate it behind a Rank 4 Workshop and a series of quests.
A rank 4 Workshop is either damned hard work or pretty damned expensive to attain.
The associated quests should be likewise.
Personally, I'd be knackered, as I've got 10 R3 workshops that would need improving... but I'd prefer to have it genuinely be hard to get rather than simply a "here you go, for all your hard work in posting a guild request ten minutes ago and joining this guild, here's the Artisan..." system currently in use.
Yeah, OK... if that's the best argument for why it should stay with GH10, then it's getting towards "clutching at straws" time.
Here goes...
The point is that you get the quest from doing nothing other than being in a guild.
That's irrelevant of whether you are a founder member who has ground the work out for months or years, or someone who started playing a few weeks ago, has one profession at max and joined the guild ten minutes ago, they can get the quest and begin the process.
It's not about the achievement of Mastercrafting, it's about who is allowed to even begin the process.
I understand that the process is hard, and it damn well should be.
Starting the process, however, is an imbalanced mess that reflects nothing to do with the character. Anyone who is capable of pursuing the time and effort you speak of should be allowed access based on whether they have got to the stage of the the new Professions system that would allow them to progress.
What that has to do with the level of your guild is like saying, "You can only have MC 2 if you have a Legendary Mount." It's a nonsensical restriction. "MC 3 is only for people with 5 active Legendary Companions..."
It would be stupid. Just as stupid as gating professions behind guild level.
As you point out, the entire process is hard, and time consuming, and expensive.
Isn't that the argument people are making? That it should be elusive and exclusive?
But it's OK for people who don't have the means to complete it, but are in the right guild, access, (and allow them to go on forums and moan about the RNG, and how hard it is to get the results they want.) while people who are perfectly equipped to throw currency, time and resources at doing it successfully are barred from even trying?
That's dumb, right?
Since people keep asking, Masterwork I weapons (like dragonflight gear) were originally tied to the stronghold. The original weapons weren't crafted, rather a crate of some kind was crafted and used as a currency to purchase Masterwork weapons from the stronghold vendor (same guy as dragonflight gear). To answer the ongoing question that all of the seasoned players who've supposedly been around since the creation of Strongholds, this is why Masterwork is tied to stronghold progression. Like anything tied to stronghold vendors, it required a certain level of guild hall (and marketplace) to obtain.
On the note of "Making it more accessible," they've done that repeatedly.
1. The creation of Vendors behind the Stronghold reduced the RNG needed for MW II and III. No longer are people crafting for weeks per profession. One 2xGM event and a little planning and players are through early MWII and most/all of MW III. Its a joke to even think about any level of difficulty in those steps as the only gate is guild marks.
2. The new Masterwork I is less about RNG and more about mass crafting. The +1 items needed now just take a small amount of time. There is no longer the RNG of getting the tier 3 result after the RNG of the hourly blue quests. There is no need to "rush" jobs for AD because your item came up that hour or buying overpriced items from the AH. If you already have a hammer, there is little/no time in unlocking this step compared to the previous level
3. The new system makes MW 2's last step easier. The MW II legendary items have a 75%ish chance of success without a supplement. This used to be a gate that would turn away players as it was 35% with a mythic forgehammer. Even when vendors came around, this was a dreaded step that is now a relatively easy chance of success. Also, players short on Guild marks can craft the ingredients at a much higher cost (as the purple MW tool wasn't given until AFTER this step).
4. There is one less profession to level and grow in MW, making this process a LOT cheaper.
All of that has made the first 3 levels mostly a joke in comparison to their earlier versions of those quests. Couple that with the natural market's sinking prices (Manticore stuff and Fartouched needed for IV crafts are cheap), it has never been easier to get into MW.
Keep in mind, Masterwork is optional. It doesn't gate ANYTHING in the game. You can be end game, BiS, and never touch a single profession. This is a choice. Like those who choose not to random queue and earn AD another way, like people who choose to buyout campaigns, choose to play in smaller guilds, and choose to not play with VIP, there are consequences to your choices. If you want this optional quest and character unlock, there's gates. One of them is joining a GH 10+ for a few minutes and it is really the easiest of steps in the masterwork process (even easier than buying your way to MWIII as you can now do).
It has to be gated somewhere. Doing so in the Workshop would be more logical, but the outcry and backlash from doing so would have been that much worse. Moving it to the Workshop would have hurt guilds as well. Those pursuing Masterworks donate to their guild and those in the alliance to gain guild marks so they can purchase the charts needed to get ingredients for the masterworks recipes. Those donations also allow the guild leaders to progress the stronghold, to put up the temporary vendors that anyone can use to purchase items to either sell to others or use themselves. There are probably very few Masterwork crafters that aren't in a guild, helping their guild or those in the alliance to grow. Or, I'm just an optimist and think that's the way it should be.
I don't see tons of threads whining that you can't participate in a Dragonflight event unless you're in a guild.
I already suggested a simple workaround that would give people access to mastercrafting if not in a guild. But, since someone keeps repeating "Why can't we have mastercrafting if we're not in a guild", I suppose the simplest of answers as to the why is because it wasn't designed to be accessible to everybody in the first place.
What gives you the impression anything I've said has anything to do with making tons of AD?
What have I said that gives you that impression?
Anything at all...
I'm in favour of equal access to MC for people who'd rather not treat other peoples' hard work as a freebie for themselves.
I guess you never saw any of the complaints about access to Dragonflight Armour back when it was essentially BiS then?
You honestly see a correlation between an event that takes place in a GUILD stronghold and an element of character development that tales place in a bespoke individual zone?
No one has yet given a rational explanation for why Mastercrafting is linked to guild and not workshop.
"Because it wasn't designed to be accessible to everybody in the first place" isn't an answer or explanation, it's just repeating the state of the problem
Why would there be a backlash?
No one is suggesting the charts and ingredients or temporary vendors be removed from guilds, just the initial access to the quests. If someone then decides to pursue the necessary stuff via the AH they have the option. OR they can join a guild long term to use GMs.
That way they have a choice.
Gate it behind quests and adventure, don't make it easy for freeloaders to guild hop to gain something that should be EARNED.
And even if it DID cause a few people to get their panties in a bunch, it would make a nice change for that to happen because of something they did which would be, as you point out, MORE LOGICAL.
Cos I'll bet you a hot dog with relish right now that at some point this year (month, week, take your pick) Cryptic are going to do (lots of) something(s) that causes outcry and backlash, that makes no logical sense at all.
Imagine if, just for once, they could turn round and say, "Yeah, we get it, a few of you are unhappy, but... this time what we did actually makes sense."
So, once more, if the work around is so easy. And completely defeats the object of the "Ooh... it's supposed to be hard to get... exclusive... elusive... special guilds only..." argument...
What is the point of having it in the first place?
What amazes me is how many people are ardently defending something that is just plain stupid.
I've not yet read one good reason why it remains the way it is, when an alleged complete overhaul of the system just took place.
It might have made sense back when it was a somewhat pointless plaything of the rich and powerful, and an enticement to develop the Stronghold system when that was fresh. Now its out of date.
I don't understand the mindset of "Why fix or replace something that's broken, when there's an annoying work around?"
Is the design of gaining access to mastercrafting flawless? No. I actually did make a suggestion for an alternative to give access to the masses without giving them access to the goodies that come with being a part of a guild.
Is the design of entry into mastercrafting game breaking? Not at all. There are workarounds. Are they good? Are they bad? That's up to interpretation.
You call it a design flaw because the thinking behind how to gate entry is stupid to you. I have agreed that it makes little sense earlier. But to the system designer it may be doing exactly what was intended which makes it wai. Do you know the rationale? Maybe it was to FORCE people into guilds. You're arguing in a vacuum because you are a player and to you the end result is how it affects a player. To the designer, the end result is "did i get the player to do what i wanted them to".
You can keep in going in circles because there is no strong basis for changing it other than "well its an inconvenience for people to use the silly workaround".
At the end of the day, I've already said multiple times I agree with parts of your idea. But it's still a relatively minor inconvenience.
It's pretty hard to find players NOT already in a guild, and it's unlikely that any guild isn't going to be in an Alliance with at least one level 20.
The masses already have full access.
Would it be nice if they updated the quests? ... Yup, they should do that especially if they refer to outdated items. And it would be logical if Master Crafting came from the Retainer in the future.
... but is master crafting gated? - Not really ... you have to go out of your way to **not** be in a decent guild. They're pretty much always recruiting.