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[DISCUSSION] My Final Plea to the DEVs - Remove Boons from PVP
ayroux
Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
I have not been active for quite some time. After bouncing around games, its really made me miss the sweetness that was PVP in this game. I say was, because PVP in NW has LONG since been completely dead. Not really looking to debate this.
There are only a handful of people left that remember the old glory days of PVP in Neverwinter. So my final plea to the DEVs of this game:
Please remove ALL the PVE CAMPAIGN boons from PVP (I would include Stronghold Boons in this too) I know this isnt the ONLY issue with PVP but its a mighty big one.
PVP has far too many barriers in this game for the new player, the casual, the PVE player, it creates too much of an advantage for the hyper focused PVP player.
So what this solves, is it removes SO much time-gated barrier for ALL players who want to participate in PVP in Neverwinter. The fresh max level player stands absolutely ZERO chance, because they are missing out on tens of thousands of stat points to play PVP.
PVP should be more an emphasis on SKILL than Gear. The current system of Neverwinter, its the opposite. The "power gap" allowed through gear is far too great to overcome with Skill.
Put another way. The most SKILLED PVP player in the game, could NOT take a fresh max level character and be competitive in PVP. This is wrong IMO.
This would be a massive step forward into making the population of PVP larger, enabling the content to be much more enjoyable for more players.
I dont think it would take much TIME investment to do this.... So please consider it.
Before someone asks. No - this isnt going to remove all desire for new content. With new mounts/artifacts/gear that gets released, there will still forever be a desire to get all the campaign boons, to aid in the completion of PVE, to help everyone gear up for PVP. Just because the Boons THEMSELVES dont impact PVP, doesnt mean there is no INDIRECT impact (boons help get gear, which does impact PVP).
Thanks for your time.
There are only a handful of people left that remember the old glory days of PVP in Neverwinter. So my final plea to the DEVs of this game:
Please remove ALL the PVE CAMPAIGN boons from PVP (I would include Stronghold Boons in this too) I know this isnt the ONLY issue with PVP but its a mighty big one.
PVP has far too many barriers in this game for the new player, the casual, the PVE player, it creates too much of an advantage for the hyper focused PVP player.
So what this solves, is it removes SO much time-gated barrier for ALL players who want to participate in PVP in Neverwinter. The fresh max level player stands absolutely ZERO chance, because they are missing out on tens of thousands of stat points to play PVP.
PVP should be more an emphasis on SKILL than Gear. The current system of Neverwinter, its the opposite. The "power gap" allowed through gear is far too great to overcome with Skill.
Put another way. The most SKILLED PVP player in the game, could NOT take a fresh max level character and be competitive in PVP. This is wrong IMO.
This would be a massive step forward into making the population of PVP larger, enabling the content to be much more enjoyable for more players.
I dont think it would take much TIME investment to do this.... So please consider it.
Before someone asks. No - this isnt going to remove all desire for new content. With new mounts/artifacts/gear that gets released, there will still forever be a desire to get all the campaign boons, to aid in the completion of PVE, to help everyone gear up for PVP. Just because the Boons THEMSELVES dont impact PVP, doesnt mean there is no INDIRECT impact (boons help get gear, which does impact PVP).
Thanks for your time.
Post edited by ayroux on
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Not every player will choose to join a guild and even those who do won’t always find a guild that has boons that will benefit them in desired areas.
As for the boons a player accumulates from doing campaigns or quests, every player can get those same boons if they do the campaigns and exercises a little patience, so to my mind it kind of depends on which “boons” @ayroux is talking about.
Personally I've always preferred and have suggested many times, when players enter PVP they should be stripped naked... they should also have all of their enchantment, mount and companion enhancements as well as all boons removed.
(*ever played Two Worlds?)
Every player should be given generic class specific armor and weapons of equal value and PVP should be more about teamwork and skill rather than who can afford to accumulate (or buy) the better gear, companions, mounts and who gets to be members of a more powerful boon loaded guild.
BIS gear, companions, mounts and boons are all well and good for PVE, campaigns, dungeons and skirmishes but when it comes to Player -vs- Player, it should be about Player -vs- Player and not about who has the best stuff.
But that's just my opinion.
Currently I'm not aware that even any of Guild PvP Boons also apply to Ice Wind Dale, if not to Domination, or Gauntlgrym; I believe they only currently apply to Stronghold Siege. Yet all PvP maps in fact run along the Crag Mount Range, so they are in fact nearby or close to the Guilds, while Ice Wind Dale is a little farther, it's still a Northern Community. Still I'm fine if leaving Stronghold. I think the mentality needs to evolve not to being a location to kill & defeat fellow defenders; but as a center of training to perfect your martial arts more akin to 'tap-out'.
I think the biggest reason most skip PvP, is nobody volunteers to be Hacked, Slashed, and then Killed.
The Kill Shot should be retired. So rather than a Kill shot, players yell for Mercy, kind of like a Tap-Out in Mixed Martial Arts. Perhaps then your God's respawns you, after Healing you of some wounds.
If they incorporate Factions into PvP it's goal would also align with that; as Faction are more 'noble' brotherhoods who work to defeat evil. The goal of PvP should not be to 'Kill' other Defender's of Neverwinter; perhaps only make better Combatants or Warriors. Different Factions could be associated with different PvP [Small (5v5) or Larger Combat (10v10)] Training just like the similar Organizations of the Ten Towns or Arcane Brotherhood exist in Ice Wind Dale. They already tie in to them in while you Level in smaller Aspects, you see others again in Elemental Evil (Spinward Rise) and throughout the Dragon's Campaign; Faction Choices Might allow secondary brotherhood beyond the guild &/or alliance. It be good if Guilds could choose a Faction for Small Combat training &/or Larger Combat Training to ally with. Those could always be re-aligned if Alliance, Guild, or Player makes a change; similar to Ice Wind Dale.
It was great to see the Domination Solo Queue introduced. I still think more needs to be done to balance matches or offset item level difference on team. Perhaps it broadcast combined Item Level of each Team at Start; then rechecks every 30s during a match. If one player drastically changes Gear Score, forced into a penalty box for 1 minute. Other options like 'Capture the Flag' starting 2 minutes into a match; spawn location only shown to the lower scored team. Yet any player who obtains a flag is marked till returned to a Defended Point or they beg for Mercy. Perhaps if returned it also extends defended sites timer &/or acts like a Ward making it harder to recapture.
- Midwinter (Hammer thru Alturiak)
- Greengrass (Tarsakh thru Mirtul)
- Midsummer (Flamerule thru Eleasis)
- Highharvest (Eleint thru Marpenoth)
- Feast of the Moon (Uktar thru Nightal)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendars_in_the_Forgotten_RealmsFACTIONS for PvP
Factions would see Players &/or Guilds in various Alliances have a extended family; as each Faction tries to beat out the other 4 each Season. Perhaps depending on your final Faction Ranking &/or how well your Faction faired &/or how active all other Factions were, they may also include a few other small or nicer rewards.
Now The Ten Town &/or Arcane Brotherhood are mostly focused on the Northern Communities; so they make sense for Ice Wind Dale, yet not a true 'Faction' but our a similar like minded organizations. Also Factions would apply to Stronghold Seige as their the Guild is Paramount.
Still it be an interesting way to introduce Seasons to different aspect of the Game &/or create an extended brotherhood amount PvP players looking to hone their skills.
-- The Good ---
HARPERS
An old organization that has risen, been shattered, and risen again several times. Its longevity and resilience are largely due to its decentralized, grassroots, secretive nature, and the near-autonomy of many of its members.
THE ORDER OF THE GAUNTLET
Many paladins and clerics of Tyr, Helm, Torm, and …. have joined this new organization, seeing it as—finally—a way of making common cause against the evils abroad in the world.
THE EMERALD ENCLAVE
A far-ranging group that opposes threats to the natural world and helps others survive the many perils of the wild. Members of the Emerald Enclave are spread far and wide, and usually operate in isolation.
THE LORDS ALLIANCE
A coalition of rulers from cities across Faerûn, who collectively agree that some solidarity is needed to keep evil at bay. The rulers of Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Neverwinter, and other free cities in the region dominate the Alliance.
-- The Well : Questionable --- they can fight together, maybe also 'fight' along any faction? Wild Cards**
ZHENTARIM
They seeks to become omnipresent and inescapable, more wealthy and powerful, and most importantly, untouchable. Everyone should fear to cross them.
**Possibly something more attractive to BiS players, the core factions above that win isn't so important, only how their influence is felt. Perhaps they more concerned individually with (+Captured Points, +Defended Points, Mercy Cries they Heard, or how Few they Gave, etc...) Self Glory so they'd be the one Faction that 'fight' with their brothers &/or even for any other Faction as the only thing that matters is a win. For them perhaps even a Loss is just as honorable and wouldn't even count as a loss provided they or a team mate topped the standings and weren't surpassed by a member of the opposing team.
https://dnd.wizards.com/dungeons-and-dragons/story/factions
Still I think the Faction idea could be good for PvP as a way to align not only players behind a similar banner; but also to see Players, Guilds, &/or Alliances partner with others who share their same values.
*might be interesting to see how they would implement something like that*
When people complain no one wants to do PVP anymore, have they ever thought why that is?
It's not hard to figure out, PVP is only fun and rewarding for those who win...
When a player without a lot of BIS enhancements is matched against a player who can't farm or buy Best In Slot everything, the player with lower level gear usually looses and no one likes to repeat their roll as fodder to an artificially enhanced opponent.
I believe people can either use PVP as a showplace to display their best of everything enhancements - or they can have PVP considered more popular because it is more about actual player skill and teamwork and not about who can afford to have the best stuff.
Oh don't get me wrong I fully agree with many points you've made. Why I said the biggest obstacle is fighting a group of 5 or 10 premade teams, because their highly designed, geared, or spec'd, to buff &/or cooperate. They also work together far better than just a group of Random Players might.
I also re-read the author's note, and think he was asking why do PvE Campaign Boons apply. I think that is a fair question. Still I think the reason is because it encourages players to either advance them, or if they don't play much PvE they at least consider the campaign unlocks to drive revenue.
Have a good day.
The underlying issue is this guys.
The GEAR GAP is far too big in PVP. We are not talking about people earning advantage or disadvantage.
The question that should be asked is how MUCH of an advantage should you be able to earn in PVP?
If I am a full BIS player should I be able to 1v5 the entire opposing team? Is that too much an advantage?
Or should I be able to maybe 2v1 is an appropriate advantage.
THAT is the question. Right now the POWER gap offered by boons/items/enchants/mounts is far too large.
The single biggest source of power are PVE Campaign Boons. They offer tens of thousands of stat points that not everyone has.
This gates too many players out PVP not allowing them to participate because they have ZERO chance at being competitive.
Frankly, the "stat difference" in gear isnt as much as you would think. If you compared BIS gear to mid-level gear, in pvp, the sheer different of total stats missing is not that much.
But when you compare someone who has just a handful of boons, to someone who has ALL the campaign boons. ANd then throw in someone who is maybe part of a smaller lower level guild comapred to a MAXED guild...
You are talking tens of thousands of stat points which ENDS UP with it not being a fight!
To clarify: I am talking about the Module PVE Campaign Boons AND the SH Boons.
Bottom Line is this: We need to make PVP a more competitive place, by lowering the power gap between players. The PVP boons do not impact PVE, so the PVE Campaign boons should not impact PVP. I would include SH boons in this, as again, its such a massive source of power it makes PVP unplayable unless you join a high ranked guild with boons.
This was ALSO back when NW had THREE Servers so the tournament had to be held on the PTR - back before everyone even got free enchants too.
There is a MASSIVE market for players who want to PVP with RPG characters that have 'progression". Frankly almost all the PVPers I know, were even some of the FIRST to do PVE content, because that is part of the FUN.
I believe our guild was one of the FIRST to complete the Dragon Flight event when it launched, as a PVP guild!
Why? We wanted those rewards and progression FOR PVP.
So this is just false. From the beginning of gaming actually.
I think back to my old Runescape days - which RS Classic has a larger population than this game! Runescape has a wilderness where you LOSE ITEMS if someone kills you. Yet it was MASSIVELY popular. People would spend countless hours farming items to go into PVP and risk losing it.
World of Warcraft, same thing. Classic WOW is coming back. People farmed for MONTHS to try and get "High Warlord" Rank which was a massive achievement, just to get a little GEAR ADVANTAGE over others. Not enough where it was "faceroll LOL I win" mode like in NW, but enough to feel GOOD about it.
Thats the difference. In NW. A BIS PVP character can faceroll their keyboard and win. This means its gone TOO FAR.
One of the BIGGEST reasons for this? ALLLLLL the Boons. (Including SH Boons).
Can leave the PVP boons. remove the rest from PVP JUST LIKE THE COMPANIONS/PETS dont impact PVP.
Do this, and you will instantly see more people willing to play PVP and less 1-sided games.
After that, re-asses. I would argue further for mount bonuses and some other stuff removed too, but thats another story.
The only gear gap was Rank 1-10 enchants and Lesser - Perfect Weapon/Armor enchants.
Gear gap was pretty small for the most part....
So you could log in, PVP and be competitive.
This is the problem.... Games take the PVP advantage TOO FAR.
Neverwinter was great. Then they released module 1.... OK not too bad. Then module 2 and endless consumption came out along with Artifacts... Now we have more boons, more gear, artifacts... Way more self healing... Started to become an issue.
Then mod 3 came out and brought artifact equipment.... Not even bigger gear gap...
It never reversed course from there.
THATS the problem.
The problem isnt. Everyone needs to be equal.
The problem is you need SKILL > GEAR.
You can still have GEAR/ITEMS/POWER GAP be a role in a PVP oriented game. It just needs to be such that SKILL can overcome that.
In NEVERWINTER that SKILL factor kept being reduced module after module after module.... The Gear impact (and boons by extension) kept getting bigger and bigger. Until it fully killed PVP.
As I said games are only "fun" if you're wining - or at least have a chance at winning.
When you have so many players able to nearly dominate PVP single handedly against an opposing team, every player on that opposing team will either try to spend the time to grind for better "stuff" or if they are able, buy better "stuff". For the players who have neither the time or free cash to do either they just tend to walk away from PVP because they have little or no chance of even effectively competing, let alone winning.
So you've got a bunch of people with BIS gear, enhancements and boons who don't really want to compete against each other (because even when a player has good gear, it still sucks when they lose to someone with better gear) complaining about how no one wants to play PVP any more, but apparently never taking the time to try to figure out WHY so few people play PVP anymore.
My opinion is as @ayroux mentioned, PVP is no longer about teamwork and skill - it's all about who has the means to get the best gear, enhancements and boons.
Take away that divisive factor and I bet we'd see a lot more people willing to step into PVP because they and their team just might win.
Way back in mod 2.. when people were complaining about pvp balance.. I said this is as balanced as it possibly will ever get.. stop complaining.. and its just spiraled down from there.
there is simply too many interactions with materials to make for even remotely competitive pvp.. They would need to dial it back and make a more general and generic ability to play pvp.. but they wont, because that means they may miss out on money..even with such a small population remaining. Its the same reason they nerfed DO dcs, Damnation SWs and any sort of semblance of cheap alternatives for pve.. dont tell me they did these things before they wanted to get rid of two dc meta.. who cares about that.. they did it because it costs WAY more to make a ac/dc then a DO/dc for support.. and you could literally back when you COULD play a sw damnation, literally have r8s on and still work as a team. But it was cheap.. so its gone (btw they had a early version of support hr they nerfed once.. dont be surprised, when its nerfed again)
So ya.. as long as they sale campaign completion tokens, you will never see boons removed from pvp.. or I would be highly surprised.. because there is a remote chance of eating into profits.. aint going to happen.
Theres literally 0% chance I could ever complete the PVP campaign with the state that PVP is in. Gauntlgrym doesn't even exist anymore as far as anyone is concerned.
Sure there are players who spend hours a day farming stuff to give them more powerful characters, there are also people who have the means to buy their way to a more powerful character and they usually feel they "earned" their high powered characters with great gear, boons, etc. and they're right, to a point...
In most cases the attributes they feel they've earned didn't come from PVP they came from PVE, yet they are able to bring those enhanced attributes into a completely different environment to give them an advantage they shouldn't (IMO) have there.
Also I believe "Class balance" is an unobtainable myth...
For example; mages and Clerics aren't meant to be heavy hitters on par with GWF's and Guardian Fighters, inversely fighter classes aren't meant to have the range of Hunter Rangers - particularly in PVP.
Back when I played D&D with real dice and a DM, our focus was on a "Well Balanced Party" not equally balanced characters because the reality of the time was that balanced character attributes and powers didn't exist.
But as long as players demand "character class balance", wanting their fighters to heal as well as a cleric, their mages to have the same damage resistance as a guardian fighter and all other classes to have the same attack range as hunter rangers, developers will keep trying to achieve the impossible just to placate the complainers.
This is an online Dungeons and Dragons game, program it and expect people to play it as a Dungeons and Dragon game - not something it isn't.
My 2¢
How are you going to get better unless you are playing against "The Best" and striving to win and learning along the way.
By the way, there are no "The Best" anymore, because all the classes have been nerfed to the point that they are only 'Very Good', not even 'Excellent' or "The Best".
If it sounds any better give the lowest level character equal abilities (enhancements from enchantments, companions, mounts and guild boons) to match the most powerful character - whether they've earned them or not - things will still be as equal as removing the enhancements from more powerful contenders so everyone plays in accordance to their skill and teamwork -vs- who has the best gear.
But then I suppose that doesn't sound any better to you does it?
There's a difference between "playing against the best", and just being little more than target fodder for anyone who so greatly exceeds your abilities they don't stand a chance against their opponents...
What exactly is anyone supposed to "learn", various ways to be defeated by opponents that are so overwhelmingly over powered (by comparison) a player doesn't even stand a chance at winning thus never gets a reward for their efforts?
There's a saying for PVP: "to the victor goes the spoils", if a player never wins, doesn't even stand a chance of winning against an opponent that can defeat them easily, no "spoils" - so why play?
But yeah, segregating contestants by player's with similar gear and other enhancement 'item levels', I'm totally in agreement.
But then with loadouts, how does one know a player isn't artificially decreasing their item level only to hit the change loadout tab and increase their item level once they enter PVP?
There should probably be some kind of safeguard to keep something like that from happening.
I wish they still had leadership AD and just limited it to ten toons a day (somthing I kept on stating over and over again back then.. ten toon limit, not removals of many things in game.
The Devs have been trying for over 5 years and it hasn't happened yet. By the way, 'Balanced play' (for the NBA) was first proposed in the 1950s. They haven't got it right yet.
Even with identical armor, feats and powers, the 'Best' players are still going to win most of the time. No one can make people 'equal', they always try to be the best they can.
Even with identical armor, feats and powers, the 'Best' players are still going to win most of the time. No one can make people 'equal', they always try to be the best they can.
The devs tried... until mod 6. Then the program that matches like players caused high wait times. So, they turned it off.
I know outside influences cause some teams to excel... I'm a Baltimore Orioles fan.
You can't have player class balance unless you get just rid of all other character classes and turn everyone into Guardian Fighters or whatever, do away with all other class players and make every character the same... in essence I think that is exactly what I see the developers attempting to do, take away individual class specific strengths and weaknesses - how things are supposed to be and attempt to make all character classes into something they were never intended or designed to be, "equal", in damage resistance, attack strength, etc.. That just not the way D&D character classes were designed... at least to the best of my knowledge.
To avoid the high wait times trying to match players with various item levels - just negate all things associated with item levels entirely and start all players in accordance to their bare bones character levels and allow character level 10-19 contenders to enter and compete against each other, level 20-29 contenders to enter and compete against each other and so forth - problem solved.
There seem to be a flaw in your logic of: "even with identical class armor the 'best' players are still going to win"...
No individual "best player" is going to win consistently against a well organized and effective team effort even if they only have a mediocre strategy, but even if they do, it will be because they have some mad skills - not because they have the best "stuff"...
That's what we've been talking about, returning PVP to the concept of teamwork, strategy and skill -vs- what we have now, which is - who has accumulated the best advantage in PVE - and brings it into PVP.
My2¢
I also agree that 'You can't have player class balance' because the players will unbalance any attempt in their striving to be the best they can be. You're right that that is not the way D&D character classes were designed, they were designed to use their strengths to cover the weaknesses of their other party members.
Competing player level vs nearby levels and eliminating item levels begs the question - OK, what are they going to do, throw rocks at each other? Weapons and offhands are part of IL. Problem created.
There seem to be a flaw in your logic of: "even with identical class armor the 'best' players are still going to win"... The answer is in your last paragraph - the best players already use the concept of teamwork, strategy and skill
Usually good teams attract and single 'Best players', making the team better. While I agree that a team of 1 Good Player and 4 PUGs is worse than a trained team and two trained teams will keep the competition close and competitive.
We used to have good PvP Armors, but it was very currency costly and took dozens of PvP battles to accumulate. There are no IL600-700 armor pieces to be had yet to PvP in 2019, there will be IL 600-750 PvE pieces to be had in 2019 (Mod 16 650 IL, Mod 17 700 IL, Mod 18 750 IL).
Mostly we agree, but since PvP is only part of MMOs, it could be dropped and the stronghold currencies for the PvP specific structures changed to zone currencies, not currently in use for contributions to the Stronghold coffer.
No, players won't be "throwing rocks" at each other in PVP... if you read back I suggested players get a class specific set of generic armor and weapons, all character classes get a set (with no enchantment slots) with the identical item level regardless of character level, all enhancements from PVE boons are also eliminated. Mounts and companions are dismissed and their applied player bonuses are also negated... every player competes based on their character level and accumulated experience - and by how well they are able to function as a team.
The reason I think there has been such a decline in the interest and participation in PVP is I believe directly related to the inequality a lot of players face against players who have earned better boons, gear and enhancements in PVE and are able to bring those advantages into PVP.
Good PVP teams usually do attract better players, but with all things being equal - equipment wise - every player has the opportunity to learn their place in a PVP team and become better just by participating. Even the most novice player will have the opportunity to progress and become better just by competing, learning from more experienced players... no buying or endless hours/days of grinding for better stuff in PVE that will give a contestant advantage in PVP.
PVP has been returned to teams winning or losing based on experience, skill and teamwork - something every player can achieve, not who has the better advantage based on stuff they brought with them from PVE something not all players have the opportunity to take advantage of.