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[DISCUSSION] My Final Plea to the DEVs - Remove Boons from PVP

ayrouxayroux Posts: 4,271Member Arc User
edited January 7 in Player Feedback (PC)
I have not been active for quite some time. After bouncing around games, its really made me miss the sweetness that was PVP in this game. I say was, because PVP in NW has LONG since been completely dead. Not really looking to debate this.

There are only a handful of people left that remember the old glory days of PVP in Neverwinter. So my final plea to the DEVs of this game:

Please remove ALL the PVE CAMPAIGN boons from PVP (I would include Stronghold Boons in this too) I know this isnt the ONLY issue with PVP but its a mighty big one.

PVP has far too many barriers in this game for the new player, the casual, the PVE player, it creates too much of an advantage for the hyper focused PVP player.

So what this solves, is it removes SO much time-gated barrier for ALL players who want to participate in PVP in Neverwinter. The fresh max level player stands absolutely ZERO chance, because they are missing out on tens of thousands of stat points to play PVP.

PVP should be more an emphasis on SKILL than Gear. The current system of Neverwinter, its the opposite. The "power gap" allowed through gear is far too great to overcome with Skill.

Put another way. The most SKILLED PVP player in the game, could NOT take a fresh max level character and be competitive in PVP. This is wrong IMO.

This would be a massive step forward into making the population of PVP larger, enabling the content to be much more enjoyable for more players.

I dont think it would take much TIME investment to do this.... So please consider it.

Before someone asks. No - this isnt going to remove all desire for new content. With new mounts/artifacts/gear that gets released, there will still forever be a desire to get all the campaign boons, to aid in the completion of PVE, to help everyone gear up for PVP. Just because the Boons THEMSELVES dont impact PVP, doesnt mean there is no INDIRECT impact (boons help get gear, which does impact PVP).

Thanks for your time.
Post edited by ayroux on

Comments

  • valmunter99#8413 valmunter99 Posts: 9Member Arc User
    so u played the game for long time now? and u still dont see it? yes we know yes they know that all that gear diff.. boons, leg, mounts whatever rare item... ruins pvp for ppl who just want to casualy play it who mainly play pve, for starters etc.... its not a secret most games that are not focusing on pvp mainly have this kinda HAMSTER.. its pretty simple " you new? press that recharge button and u will get that items" if not get HAMSTER or grind... and pvp players dont play games where they need to grind to play pvp.. if i log in a game to play pvp give me a char to play right away.. same for everyone else who plays with me or against me! if u can build advantages from the game grind or whatever thats not pvp... thats just "haha see what i got u got rekt"... its like playing a FPS game when 1 guy has a pistol and the other guy plays for 4 years and throw a atom bomb at you xD i hope u understand what i mean.. :D if they dont equalize everyone whats the point then?.. no real pvp player gonna play it.. simple and i dont see it happening here... so just pick a dungeon and enjoy the PVE..
  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Posts: 1,924Member Arc User
    If you been away for a while, I don't think removing the PvE boons will help you. The existing PvP will still be geared to the teeth and you will still be road kill. Then what are you going to ask for? Strip them naked? That will level the playing field for sure.
  • dionchidionchi Posts: 755Member Arc User
    edited January 5
    Guild boons for PVP does give members of a guild a clear advantage over players who aren't members of a guild I think @ayroux might have a valid point.

    Not every player will choose to join a guild and even those who do won’t always find a guild that has boons that will benefit them in desired areas.

    As for the boons a player accumulates from doing campaigns or quests, every player can get those same boons if they do the campaigns and exercises a little patience, so to my mind it kind of depends on which “boons” @ayroux is talking about.

    Personally I've always preferred and have suggested many times, when players enter PVP they should be stripped naked... they should also have all of their enchantment, mount and companion enhancements as well as all boons removed.
    (*ever played Two Worlds?)

    Every player should be given generic class specific armor and weapons of equal value and PVP should be more about teamwork and skill rather than who can afford to accumulate (or buy) the better gear, companions, mounts and who gets to be members of a more powerful boon loaded guild.

    BIS gear, companions, mounts and boons are all well and good for PVE, campaigns, dungeons and skirmishes but when it comes to Player -vs- Player, it should be about Player -vs- Player and not about who has the best stuff.

    But that's just my opinion.
    DD~
  • strathkinstrathkin Posts: 1,225Member Arc User
    edited January 15
    On reading @ayroux message I see he's asking Campaign PvE Boon's, do not apply to PvP; as similarly as PvP Boons don't apply to PvE. While I'd have no issues with that, it be a Cryptic decision, as players pay for Campaign Unlocks.

    Currently I'm not aware that even any of Guild PvP Boons also apply to Ice Wind Dale, if not to Domination, or Gauntlgrym; I believe they only currently apply to Stronghold Siege. Yet all PvP maps in fact run along the Crag Mount Range, so they are in fact nearby or close to the Guilds, while Ice Wind Dale is a little farther, it's still a Northern Community. Still I'm fine if leaving Stronghold. I think the mentality needs to evolve not to being a location to kill & defeat fellow defenders; but as a center of training to perfect your martial arts more akin to 'tap-out'.

    I think the biggest reason most skip PvP, is nobody volunteers to be Hacked, Slashed, and then Killed. :astonished: :'(

    The Kill Shot should be retired. So rather than a Kill shot, players yell for Mercy, kind of like a Tap-Out in Mixed Martial Arts. Perhaps then your God's respawns you, after Healing you of some wounds.

    If they incorporate Factions into PvP it's goal would also align with that; as Faction are more 'noble' brotherhoods who work to defeat evil. The goal of PvP should not be to 'Kill' other Defender's of Neverwinter; perhaps only make better Combatants or Warriors. Different Factions could be associated with different PvP [Small (5v5) or Larger Combat (10v10)] Training just like the similar Organizations of the Ten Towns or Arcane Brotherhood exist in Ice Wind Dale. They already tie in to them in while you Level in smaller Aspects, you see others again in Elemental Evil (Spinward Rise) and throughout the Dragon's Campaign; Faction Choices Might allow secondary brotherhood beyond the guild &/or alliance. It be good if Guilds could choose a Faction for Small Combat training &/or Larger Combat Training to ally with. Those could always be re-aligned if Alliance, Guild, or Player makes a change; similar to Ice Wind Dale.

    It was great to see the Domination Solo Queue introduced. I still think more needs to be done to balance matches or offset item level difference on team. Perhaps it broadcast combined Item Level of each Team at Start; then rechecks every 30s during a match. If one player drastically changes Gear Score, forced into a penalty box for 1 minute. Other options like 'Capture the Flag' starting 2 minutes into a match; spawn location only shown to the lower scored team. Yet any player who obtains a flag is marked till returned to a Defended Point or they beg for Mercy. Perhaps if returned it also extends defended sites timer &/or acts like a Ward making it harder to recapture.
    1. Perhaps Players, Guilds, &/or Alliances, can support a Faction, so they build 'brotherhood' of PvP players.
    2. Make Shorter Seasons in PvP that align with the 5 in D&D (WotC) and Introduce Factions Contracts Per Season:
    • Midwinter (Hammer thru Alturiak)
    • Greengrass (Tarsakh thru Mirtul)
    • Midsummer (Flamerule thru Eleasis)
    • Highharvest (Eleint thru Marpenoth)
    • Feast of the Moon (Uktar thru Nightal)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendars_in_the_Forgotten_Realms

    FACTIONS for PvP

    Factions would see Players &/or Guilds in various Alliances have a extended family; as each Faction tries to beat out the other 4 each Season. Perhaps depending on your final Faction Ranking &/or how well your Faction faired &/or how active all other Factions were, they may also include a few other small or nicer rewards.

    Now The Ten Town &/or Arcane Brotherhood are mostly focused on the Northern Communities; so they make sense for Ice Wind Dale, yet not a true 'Faction' but our a similar like minded organizations. Also Factions would apply to Stronghold Seige as their the Guild is Paramount.

    Still it be an interesting way to introduce Seasons to different aspect of the Game &/or create an extended brotherhood amount PvP players looking to hone their skills.

    -- The Good ---

    HARPERS
    An old organization that has risen, been shattered, and risen again several times. Its longevity and resilience are largely due to its decentralized, grassroots, secretive nature, and the near-autonomy of many of its members.

    THE ORDER OF THE GAUNTLET
    Many paladins and clerics of Tyr, Helm, Torm, and …. have joined this new organization, seeing it as—finally—a way of making common cause against the evils abroad in the world.

    THE EMERALD ENCLAVE
    A far-ranging group that opposes threats to the natural world and helps others survive the many perils of the wild. Members of the Emerald Enclave are spread far and wide, and usually operate in isolation.

    THE LORDS ALLIANCE
    A coalition of rulers from cities across Faerûn, who collectively agree that some solidarity is needed to keep evil at bay. The rulers of Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Neverwinter, and other free cities in the region dominate the Alliance.

    -- The Well : Questionable --- they can fight together, maybe also 'fight' along any faction? Wild Cards**

    ZHENTARIM
    They seeks to become omnipresent and inescapable, more wealthy and powerful, and most importantly, untouchable. Everyone should fear to cross them.

    **Possibly something more attractive to BiS players, the core factions above that win isn't so important, only how their influence is felt. Perhaps they more concerned individually with (+Captured Points, +Defended Points, Mercy Cries they Heard, or how Few they Gave, etc...) Self Glory so they'd be the one Faction that 'fight' with their brothers &/or even for any other Faction as the only thing that matters is a win. For them perhaps even a Loss is just as honorable and wouldn't even count as a loss provided they or a team mate topped the standings and weren't surpassed by a member of the opposing team.

    https://dnd.wizards.com/dungeons-and-dragons/story/factions

    Still I think the Faction idea could be good for PvP as a way to align not only players behind a similar banner; but also to see Players, Guilds, &/or Alliances partner with others who share their same values.

    *might be interesting to see how they would implement something like that*
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • dionchidionchi Posts: 755Member Arc User
    edited January 5
    strathkin said:

    I don't think removing any PvP Boons is Wise &/or a 'Good' idea cause if people have earned them, you'd only be distancing the community your trying to re-engage.

    Now I'm not aware if Guild PvP Boons also apply to Ice Wind Dale, Domination, or Gauntlgrym. I thought they were mostly used just exclusively for Stronghold Siege but perhaps they do? Still I think the real challenge for PvP is when you get 5 or 10 people queue together on one team as a 'Premade', and the queue system then takes 2-5 'Pick-Up Group's or PUG's as they call them who are far lower item level, that really is the biggest challenge as it should try to pair more similarly skilled combatants together.

    It was great to see the Domination Solo Queue introduced, yet still I think they need to try to more closely pair teams. I don't know if Guild PvP Boons apply to Domination &/or Guantgyrm but it be sure nice to see them expanded in Ice Wind Dale. I'd love to see something like Combat League return... ...or expand the Faction concept introduce in Ice Wind Dale to more PvP matches.

    Perhaps they could offer Players, Guilds &/or Alliances, a choice for Longer Term Faction Contracts; yet it's never really been fully realized for PvP except for that location. Could be great for Domination &/or Gauntlgrym Battleground as well. Cause just like players feel more likely to help a Guild &/or Alliance Players; the same may also be true for coming together to help those in an allied Faction. To ensure their Faction does the best over all against the other.

    Might be interesting to see how they might do that.

    Might see not Only Guilds/Alliances in one Faction; but also Factions forming Discords, to organize PvP efforts with allied Guilds, Alliances &/or Players. *ponder*

    Of course people have earned their boons and other enhancements but not everyone has equal opportunity to do the things required to get high grade stuff.

    When people complain no one wants to do PVP anymore, have they ever thought why that is?

    It's not hard to figure out, PVP is only fun and rewarding for those who win...

    When a player without a lot of BIS enhancements is matched against a player who can't farm or buy Best In Slot everything, the player with lower level gear usually looses and no one likes to repeat their roll as fodder to an artificially enhanced opponent.

    I believe people can either use PVP as a showplace to display their best of everything enhancements - or they can have PVP considered more popular because it is more about actual player skill and teamwork and not about who can afford to have the best stuff.
    DD~
  • strathkinstrathkin Posts: 1,225Member Arc User
    edited January 8
    @dionchi

    Oh don't get me wrong I fully agree with many points you've made. Why I said the biggest obstacle is fighting a group of 5 or 10 premade teams, because their highly designed, geared, or spec'd, to buff &/or cooperate. They also work together far better than just a group of Random Players might.

    I also re-read the author's note, and think he was asking why do PvE Campaign Boons apply. I think that is a fair question. Still I think the reason is because it encourages players to either advance them, or if they don't play much PvE they at least consider the campaign unlocks to drive revenue.

    Have a good day.
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • ayrouxayroux Posts: 4,271Member Arc User
    dionchi said:

    strathkin said:

    I don't think removing any PvP Boons is Wise &/or a 'Good' idea cause if people have earned them, you'd only be distancing the community your trying to re-engage.

    Now I'm not aware if Guild PvP Boons also apply to Ice Wind Dale, Domination, or Gauntlgrym. I thought they were mostly used just exclusively for Stronghold Siege but perhaps they do? Still I think the real challenge for PvP is when you get 5 or 10 people queue together on one team as a 'Premade', and the queue system then takes 2-5 'Pick-Up Group's or PUG's as they call them who are far lower item level, that really is the biggest challenge as it should try to pair more similarly skilled combatants together.

    It was great to see the Domination Solo Queue introduced, yet still I think they need to try to more closely pair teams. I don't know if Guild PvP Boons apply to Domination &/or Guantgyrm but it be sure nice to see them expanded in Ice Wind Dale. I'd love to see something like Combat League return... ...or expand the Faction concept introduce in Ice Wind Dale to more PvP matches.

    Perhaps they could offer Players, Guilds &/or Alliances, a choice for Longer Term Faction Contracts; yet it's never really been fully realized for PvP except for that location. Could be great for Domination &/or Gauntlgrym Battleground as well. Cause just like players feel more likely to help a Guild &/or Alliance Players; the same may also be true for coming together to help those in an allied Faction. To ensure their Faction does the best over all against the other.

    Might be interesting to see how they might do that.

    Might see not Only Guilds/Alliances in one Faction; but also Factions forming Discords, to organize PvP efforts with allied Guilds, Alliances &/or Players. *ponder*

    Of course people have earned their boons and other enhancements but not everyone has equal opportunity to do the things required to get high grade stuff.

    When people complain no one wants to do PVP anymore, have they ever thought why that is?

    It's not hard to figure out, PVP is only fun and rewarding for those who win...

    When a player without a lot of BIS enhancements is matched against a player who can't farm or buy Best In Slot everything, the player with lower level gear usually looses and no one likes to repeat their roll as fodder to an artificially enhanced opponent.

    I believe people can either use PVP as a showplace to display their best of everything enhancements - or they can have PVP considered more popular because it is more about actual player skill and teamwork and not about who can afford to have the best stuff.
    This is exactly correct.

    The underlying issue is this guys.

    The GEAR GAP is far too big in PVP. We are not talking about people earning advantage or disadvantage.

    The question that should be asked is how MUCH of an advantage should you be able to earn in PVP?

    If I am a full BIS player should I be able to 1v5 the entire opposing team? Is that too much an advantage?
    Or should I be able to maybe 2v1 is an appropriate advantage.

    THAT is the question. Right now the POWER gap offered by boons/items/enchants/mounts is far too large.

    The single biggest source of power are PVE Campaign Boons. They offer tens of thousands of stat points that not everyone has.

    This gates too many players out PVP not allowing them to participate because they have ZERO chance at being competitive.

    Frankly, the "stat difference" in gear isnt as much as you would think. If you compared BIS gear to mid-level gear, in pvp, the sheer different of total stats missing is not that much.

    But when you compare someone who has just a handful of boons, to someone who has ALL the campaign boons. ANd then throw in someone who is maybe part of a smaller lower level guild comapred to a MAXED guild...

    You are talking tens of thousands of stat points which ENDS UP with it not being a fight!

    To clarify: I am talking about the Module PVE Campaign Boons AND the SH Boons.

    Bottom Line is this: We need to make PVP a more competitive place, by lowering the power gap between players. The PVP boons do not impact PVE, so the PVE Campaign boons should not impact PVP. I would include SH boons in this, as again, its such a massive source of power it makes PVP unplayable unless you join a high ranked guild with boons.

  • ayrouxayroux Posts: 4,271Member Arc User

    and pvp players dont play games where they need to grind to play pvp.. if i log in a game to play pvp give me a char to play right away.. same for everyone else who plays with me or against me! if u can build advantages from the game grind or whatever thats not pvp... thats just "haha see what i got u got rekt"...

    This is far from true. Back before any of the MODULES Neverwinter PVP was actually booming. There were even community organized tournaments with millions of AD for prizes.

    This was ALSO back when NW had THREE Servers so the tournament had to be held on the PTR - back before everyone even got free enchants too.

    There is a MASSIVE market for players who want to PVP with RPG characters that have 'progression". Frankly almost all the PVPers I know, were even some of the FIRST to do PVE content, because that is part of the FUN.

    I believe our guild was one of the FIRST to complete the Dragon Flight event when it launched, as a PVP guild!

    Why? We wanted those rewards and progression FOR PVP.

    So this is just false. From the beginning of gaming actually.

    I think back to my old Runescape days - which RS Classic has a larger population than this game! Runescape has a wilderness where you LOSE ITEMS if someone kills you. Yet it was MASSIVELY popular. People would spend countless hours farming items to go into PVP and risk losing it.

    World of Warcraft, same thing. Classic WOW is coming back. People farmed for MONTHS to try and get "High Warlord" Rank which was a massive achievement, just to get a little GEAR ADVANTAGE over others. Not enough where it was "faceroll LOL I win" mode like in NW, but enough to feel GOOD about it.

    Thats the difference. In NW. A BIS PVP character can faceroll their keyboard and win. This means its gone TOO FAR.

    One of the BIGGEST reasons for this? ALLLLLL the Boons. (Including SH Boons).

    Can leave the PVP boons. remove the rest from PVP JUST LIKE THE COMPANIONS/PETS dont impact PVP.

    Do this, and you will instantly see more people willing to play PVP and less 1-sided games.

    After that, re-asses. I would argue further for mount bonuses and some other stuff removed too, but thats another story.
  • valmunter99#8413 valmunter99 Posts: 9Member Arc User
    There is a reason why games like League of legends, all these mobas, now all FPS battle royal games are so popular.. its simple they give u pure pvp. "i log in and queue.. everyone is starting equal" and the better team or player wins in the end. its rly simple thats competitve pvp... i mean i dont even like shooter games and im playing PUBG all day just because of that u can argue how much u want but basicaly its like this "can u offer me competitve pvp or not?" and u know my answer!! and most if not all ppl i know would say the same...
  • ayrouxayroux Posts: 4,271Member Arc User

    There is a reason why games like League of legends, all these mobas, now all FPS battle royal games are so popular.. its simple they give u pure pvp. "i log in and queue.. everyone is starting equal" and the better team or player wins in the end. its rly simple thats competitve pvp... i mean i dont even like shooter games and im playing PUBG all day just because of that u can argue how much u want but basicaly its like this "can u offer me competitve pvp or not?" and u know my answer!! and most if not all ppl i know would say the same...

    I agree. This game USED to have competitive PVP. Back before ANY modules. Before any campaign boons. Before artifact equipment. Mount bonuses. Before ALL of that.

    The only gear gap was Rank 1-10 enchants and Lesser - Perfect Weapon/Armor enchants.

    Gear gap was pretty small for the most part....

    So you could log in, PVP and be competitive.

    This is the problem.... Games take the PVP advantage TOO FAR.

    Neverwinter was great. Then they released module 1.... OK not too bad. Then module 2 and endless consumption came out along with Artifacts... Now we have more boons, more gear, artifacts... Way more self healing... Started to become an issue.

    Then mod 3 came out and brought artifact equipment.... Not even bigger gear gap...

    It never reversed course from there.

    THATS the problem.

    The problem isnt. Everyone needs to be equal.

    The problem is you need SKILL > GEAR.

    You can still have GEAR/ITEMS/POWER GAP be a role in a PVP oriented game. It just needs to be such that SKILL can overcome that.

    In NEVERWINTER that SKILL factor kept being reduced module after module after module.... The Gear impact (and boons by extension) kept getting bigger and bigger. Until it fully killed PVP.

  • dionchidionchi Posts: 755Member Arc User
    edited January 9
    ayroux said:


    -snip-

    In NEVERWINTER that SKILL factor kept being reduced module after module after module.... The Gear impact (and boons by extension) kept getting bigger and bigger. Until it fully killed PVP.

    Yep, that...

    As I said games are only "fun" if you're wining - or at least have a chance at winning.

    When you have so many players able to nearly dominate PVP single handedly against an opposing team, every player on that opposing team will either try to spend the time to grind for better "stuff" or if they are able, buy better "stuff". For the players who have neither the time or free cash to do either they just tend to walk away from PVP because they have little or no chance of even effectively competing, let alone winning.

    So you've got a bunch of people with BIS gear, enhancements and boons who don't really want to compete against each other (because even when a player has good gear, it still sucks when they lose to someone with better gear) complaining about how no one wants to play PVP any more, but apparently never taking the time to try to figure out WHY so few people play PVP anymore.

    My opinion is as @ayroux mentioned, PVP is no longer about teamwork and skill - it's all about who has the means to get the best gear, enhancements and boons.

    Take away that divisive factor and I bet we'd see a lot more people willing to step into PVP because they and their team just might win.
    DD~
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Posts: 4,226Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    I pvped for the first 2 years of this game.. in fact most of my toons leveled through pvping.. I had gotten all the pvp armors for 5-6 toons up to mod 6.. then i quit. Back then you could compete with r8s,r9s and purple artifacts and greater weapon enchants.. considering at that juncture r10 was max enchant anyways, nowadays.. without mythic and legendary and at least transcendent materials.. and r14s on every slot.. your pretty worthless.. This is on top of every boon available ect. I dont think its just the boons.. its everything.. too much for any new sort of player to ever think of entering pvp.. WHILE their coding to match wasnt half bad.. IF tons and tons of people were queuing for pvp.. it never happens that way..There simply isnt enough of a range of players queuing.

    Way back in mod 2.. when people were complaining about pvp balance.. I said this is as balanced as it possibly will ever get.. stop complaining.. and its just spiraled down from there.

    there is simply too many interactions with materials to make for even remotely competitive pvp.. They would need to dial it back and make a more general and generic ability to play pvp.. but they wont, because that means they may miss out on money..even with such a small population remaining. Its the same reason they nerfed DO dcs, Damnation SWs and any sort of semblance of cheap alternatives for pve.. dont tell me they did these things before they wanted to get rid of two dc meta.. who cares about that.. they did it because it costs WAY more to make a ac/dc then a DO/dc for support.. and you could literally back when you COULD play a sw damnation, literally have r8s on and still work as a team. But it was cheap.. so its gone (btw they had a early version of support hr they nerfed once.. dont be surprised, when its nerfed again)

    So ya.. as long as they sale campaign completion tokens, you will never see boons removed from pvp.. or I would be highly surprised.. because there is a remote chance of eating into profits.. aint going to happen.



  • valmunter99#8413 valmunter99 Posts: 9Member Arc User
    @silverkelt pretty much on point. completly agree. i dont see them taking away anything why would they??.. the game is not rly known as pvp or pvp focused.. so any take aways are minus for them... im 100% if they would do it the population in pvp would go up thats no question.. but they get 0 for it... and there is the thing called "class balance" even if u take away every advantages in this game for pvp.. some classes would perform better than others.. and i dont think they want to or they have a team to actually do these balance thing properly... thats the hardest thing ever to do in any game... but to be honest if they would take away the advantages i would play pvp not rly serious but id queue for it just for fun...

  • ecrana#2080 ecrana Posts: 1,269Member Arc User

    So ya.. as long as they sale campaign completion tokens, you will never see boons removed from pvp.. or I would be highly surprised.. because there is a remote chance of eating into profits.. aint going to happen.

    And yet they don't offer a PVP campaign completion token. What's up with that? At least I could complete the other campaign boons if I wanted to.

    Theres literally 0% chance I could ever complete the PVP campaign with the state that PVP is in. Gauntlgrym doesn't even exist anymore as far as anyone is concerned.
  • dionchidionchi Posts: 755Member Arc User
    edited January 10


    - snip -
    ... and there is the thing called "class balance" even if u take away every advantages in this game for pvp.. some classes would perform better than others.. and i dont think they want to or they have a team to actually do these balance thing properly... thats the hardest thing ever to do in any game... but to be honest if they would take away the advantages i would play pvp not rly serious but id queue for it just for fun...

    PVP should be completely disassociated from everything - or nearly everything in PVE in my opinion...

    Sure there are players who spend hours a day farming stuff to give them more powerful characters, there are also people who have the means to buy their way to a more powerful character and they usually feel they "earned" their high powered characters with great gear, boons, etc. and they're right, to a point...

    In most cases the attributes they feel they've earned didn't come from PVP they came from PVE, yet they are able to bring those enhanced attributes into a completely different environment to give them an advantage they shouldn't (IMO) have there.

    Also I believe "Class balance" is an unobtainable myth...

    For example; mages and Clerics aren't meant to be heavy hitters on par with GWF's and Guardian Fighters, inversely fighter classes aren't meant to have the range of Hunter Rangers - particularly in PVP.

    Back when I played D&D with real dice and a DM, our focus was on a "Well Balanced Party" not equally balanced characters because the reality of the time was that balanced character attributes and powers didn't exist.

    But as long as players demand "character class balance", wanting their fighters to heal as well as a cleric, their mages to have the same damage resistance as a guardian fighter and all other classes to have the same attack range as hunter rangers, developers will keep trying to achieve the impossible just to placate the complainers.

    This is an online Dungeons and Dragons game, program it and expect people to play it as a Dungeons and Dragon game - not something it isn't.

    My 2¢
    DD~
  • grogthemagnifgrogthemagnif Posts: 1,435Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    ayroux said:

    I have not been active for quite some time. After bouncing around games, its really made me miss the sweetness that was PVP in this game. I say was, because PVP in NW has LONG since been completely dead. Not really looking to debate this.

    There are only a handful of people left that remember the old glory days of PVP in Neverwinter. So my final plea to the DEVs of this game:

    Please remove ALL the PVE CAMPAIGN boons from PVP (I would include Stronghold Boons in this too) I know this isnt the ONLY issue with PVP but its a mighty big one.

    PVP has far too many barriers in this game for the new player, the casual, the PVE player, it creates too much of an advantage for the hyper focused PVP player.

    So what this solves, is it removes SO much time-gated barrier for ALL players who want to participate in PVP in Neverwinter. The fresh max level player stands absolutely ZERO chance, because they are missing out on tens of thousands of stat points to play PVP.

    PVP should be more an emphasis on SKILL than Gear. The current system of Neverwinter, its the opposite. The "power gap" allowed through gear is far too great to overcome with Skill.

    Put another way. The most SKILLED PVP player in the game, could NOT take a fresh max level character and be competitive in PVP. This is wrong IMO.

    This would be a massive step forward into making the population of PVP larger, enabling the content to be much more enjoyable for more players.

    I dont think it would take much TIME investment to do this.... So please consider it.

    Before someone asks. No - this isnt going to remove all desire for new content. With new mounts/artifacts/gear that gets released, there will still forever be a desire to get all the campaign boons, to aid in the completion of PVE, to help everyone gear up for PVP. Just because the Boons THEMSELVES dont impact PVP, doesnt mean there is no INDIRECT impact (boons help get gear, which does impact PVP).

    Thanks for your time.

    Sounds like another "I'm a new level 70 and you have to nerf everyone else so I can always win" rant.

    How are you going to get better unless you are playing against "The Best" and striving to win and learning along the way.

    By the way, there are no "The Best" anymore, because all the classes have been nerfed to the point that they are only 'Very Good', not even 'Excellent' or "The Best".
  • dionchidionchi Posts: 755Member Arc User

    Sounds like another "I'm a new level 70 and you have to nerf everyone else so I can always win" rant.

    How are you going to get better unless you are playing against "The Best" and striving to win and learning along the way.

    By the way, there are no "The Best" anymore, because all the classes have been nerfed to the point that they are only 'Very Good', not even 'Excellent' or "The Best".

    I don't think nerfing everyone else is what most people are asking for - just an opportunity to compete on a fairly equal footing with their opponents.

    If it sounds any better give the lowest level character equal abilities (enhancements from enchantments, companions, mounts and guild boons) to match the most powerful character - whether they've earned them or not - things will still be as equal as removing the enhancements from more powerful contenders so everyone plays in accordance to their skill and teamwork -vs- who has the best gear.

    But then I suppose that doesn't sound any better to you does it?

    There's a difference between "playing against the best", and just being little more than target fodder for anyone who so greatly exceeds your abilities they don't stand a chance against their opponents...

    What exactly is anyone supposed to "learn", various ways to be defeated by opponents that are so overwhelmingly over powered (by comparison) a player doesn't even stand a chance at winning thus never gets a reward for their efforts?

    There's a saying for PVP: "to the victor goes the spoils", if a player never wins, doesn't even stand a chance of winning against an opponent that can defeat them easily, no "spoils" - so why play?

    DD~
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Posts: 1,371Member Arc User

    ayroux said:

    I have not been active for quite some time. After bouncing around games, its really made me miss the sweetness that was PVP in this game. I say was, because PVP in NW has LONG since been completely dead. Not really looking to debate this.

    There are only a handful of people left that remember the old glory days of PVP in Neverwinter. So my final plea to the DEVs of this game:

    Please remove ALL the PVE CAMPAIGN boons from PVP (I would include Stronghold Boons in this too) I know this isnt the ONLY issue with PVP but its a mighty big one.

    PVP has far too many barriers in this game for the new player, the casual, the PVE player, it creates too much of an advantage for the hyper focused PVP player.

    So what this solves, is it removes SO much time-gated barrier for ALL players who want to participate in PVP in Neverwinter. The fresh max level player stands absolutely ZERO chance, because they are missing out on tens of thousands of stat points to play PVP.

    PVP should be more an emphasis on SKILL than Gear. The current system of Neverwinter, its the opposite. The "power gap" allowed through gear is far too great to overcome with Skill.

    Put another way. The most SKILLED PVP player in the game, could NOT take a fresh max level character and be competitive in PVP. This is wrong IMO.

    This would be a massive step forward into making the population of PVP larger, enabling the content to be much more enjoyable for more players.

    I dont think it would take much TIME investment to do this.... So please consider it.

    Before someone asks. No - this isnt going to remove all desire for new content. With new mounts/artifacts/gear that gets released, there will still forever be a desire to get all the campaign boons, to aid in the completion of PVE, to help everyone gear up for PVP. Just because the Boons THEMSELVES dont impact PVP, doesnt mean there is no INDIRECT impact (boons help get gear, which does impact PVP).

    Thanks for your time.

    Sounds like another "I'm a new level 70 and you have to nerf everyone else so I can always win" rant.

    How are you going to get better unless you are playing against "The Best" and striving to win and learning along the way.

    By the way, there are no "The Best" anymore, because all the classes have been nerfed to the point that they are only 'Very Good', not even 'Excellent' or "The Best".
    How's about we don't nerf anybody. and instead segregate players of different level, so that everybody has an equal chance to win.
  • dionchidionchi Posts: 755Member Arc User
    edited January 11



    How's about we don't nerf anybody. and instead segregate players of different level, so that everybody has an equal chance to win.

    Different "levels" still doesn't address the disparity between players with differences applied via boons, and other enhancements... that is unless you're talking about a player's 'item level' -vs- 'character level'.

    But yeah, segregating contestants by player's with similar gear and other enhancement 'item levels', I'm totally in agreement.

    But then with loadouts, how does one know a player isn't artificially decreasing their item level only to hit the change loadout tab and increase their item level once they enter PVP?

    There should probably be some kind of safeguard to keep something like that from happening.
    DD~
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Posts: 4,226Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    So ya.. as long as they sale campaign completion tokens, you will never see boons removed from pvp.. or I would be highly surprised.. because there is a remote chance of eating into profits.. aint going to happen.

    And yet they don't offer a PVP campaign completion token. What's up with that? At least I could complete the other campaign boons if I wanted to.

    Theres literally 0% chance I could ever complete the PVP campaign with the state that PVP is in. Gauntlgrym doesn't even exist anymore as far as anyone is concerned.
    its barely anything on those compared to the rest of the boons though.. I do agree its never going to be finished though.. Unfortently they really screwed up pvp many times in this game.. frankly, the #1 single reason I quit.. was I dont get free AD anymore.. I didnt CARE back then what I did in game.. I make my free AD on leadership daily anyways.. so I could just play PVP all day long and take my leadership ad and buy things with it as I went along.

    I wish they still had leadership AD and just limited it to ten toons a day (somthing I kept on stating over and over again back then.. ten toon limit, not removals of many things in game.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Posts: 1,371Member Arc User
    dionchi said:



    How's about we don't nerf anybody. and instead segregate players of different level, so that everybody has an equal chance to win.

    Different "levels" still doesn't address the disparity between players with differences applied via boons, and other enhancements... that is unless you're talking about a player's 'item level' -vs- 'character level'.

    But yeah, segregating contestants by player's with similar gear and other enhancement 'item levels', I'm totally in agreement.

    But then with loadouts, how does one know a player isn't artificially decreasing their item level only to hit the change loadout tab and increase their item level once they enter PVP?

    There should probably be some kind of safeguard to keep something like that from happening.
    Yes, I meant ILevel, rassum frassum, club hands rassum frassum. Also, I agree that the only way it will work is if gear/loadouts are locked upon entering the queue. Mmm, there has been resistance to this idea in the past, but maybe the time has come to revisit.
  • grogthemagnifgrogthemagnif Posts: 1,435Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    dionchi said:

    Sounds like another "I'm a new level 70 and you have to nerf everyone else so I can always win" rant.

    How are you going to get better unless you are playing against "The Best" and striving to win and learning along the way.

    By the way, there are no "The Best" anymore, because all the classes have been nerfed to the point that they are only 'Very Good', not even 'Excellent' or "The Best".

    I don't think nerfing everyone else is what most people are asking for - just an opportunity to compete on a fairly equal footing with their opponents.

    If it sounds any better give the lowest level character equal abilities (enhancements from enchantments, companions, mounts and guild boons) to match the most powerful character - whether they've earned them or not - things will still be as equal as removing the enhancements from more powerful contenders so everyone plays in accordance to their skill and teamwork -vs- who has the best gear.

    But then I suppose that doesn't sound any better to you does it?

    There's a difference between "playing against the best", and just being little more than target fodder for anyone who so greatly exceeds your abilities they don't stand a chance against their opponents...

    What exactly is anyone supposed to "learn", various ways to be defeated by opponents that are so overwhelmingly over powered (by comparison) a player doesn't even stand a chance at winning thus never gets a reward for their efforts?

    There's a saying for PVP: "to the victor goes the spoils", if a player never wins, doesn't even stand a chance of winning against an opponent that can defeat them easily, no "spoils" - so why play?

    Now you have explained why so many have quit PvP.
  • grogthemagnifgrogthemagnif Posts: 1,435Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    How's about we don't nerf anybody. and instead segregate players of different level, so that everybody has an equal chance to win.

    The Devs have been trying for over 5 years and it hasn't happened yet. By the way, 'Balanced play' (for the NBA) was first proposed in the 1950s. They haven't got it right yet.

    Even with identical armor, feats and powers, the 'Best' players are still going to win most of the time. No one can make people 'equal', they always try to be the best they can.
  • grogthemagnifgrogthemagnif Posts: 1,435Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    dionchi said:

    Sounds like another "I'm a new level 70 and you have to nerf everyone else so I can always win" rant.

    How are you going to get better unless you are playing against "The Best" and striving to win and learning along the way.

    By the way, there are no "The Best" anymore, because all the classes have been nerfed to the point that they are only 'Very Good', not even 'Excellent' or "The Best".

    I don't think nerfing everyone else is what most people are asking for - just an opportunity to compete on a fairly equal footing with their opponents.

    If it sounds any better give the lowest level character equal abilities (enhancements from enchantments, companions, mounts and guild boons) to match the most powerful character - whether they've earned them or not - things will still be as equal as removing the enhancements from more powerful contenders so everyone plays in accordance to their skill and teamwork -vs- who has the best gear.

    But then I suppose that doesn't sound any better to you does it?

    There's a difference between "playing against the best", and just being little more than target fodder for anyone who so greatly exceeds your abilities they don't stand a chance against their opponents...

    What exactly is anyone supposed to "learn", various ways to be defeated by opponents that are so overwhelmingly over powered (by comparison) a player doesn't even stand a chance at winning thus never gets a reward for their efforts?

    There's a saying for PVP: "to the victor goes the spoils", if a player never wins, doesn't even stand a chance of winning against an opponent that can defeat them easily, no "spoils" - so why play?

    Now you have explained why so many have quit PvP.
  • grogthemagnifgrogthemagnif Posts: 1,435Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    So ya.. as long as they sale campaign completion tokens, you will never see boons removed from pvp.. or I would be highly surprised.. because there is a remote chance of eating into profits.. aint going to happen.

    And yet they don't offer a PVP campaign completion token. What's up with that? At least I could complete the other campaign boons if I wanted to.

    Theres literally 0% chance I could ever complete the PVP campaign with the state that PVP is in. Gauntlgrym doesn't even exist anymore as far as anyone is concerned.
    its barely anything on those compared to the rest of the boons though.. I do agree its never going to be finished though.. Unfortently they really screwed up pvp many times in this game.. frankly, the #1 single reason I quit.. was I dont get free AD anymore.. I didnt CARE back then what I did in game.. I make my free AD on leadership daily anyways.. so I could just play PVP all day long and take my leadership ad and buy things with it as I went along.

    I wish they still had leadership AD and just limited it to ten toons a day (somthing I kept on stating over and over again back then.. ten toon limit, not removals of many things in game.
    That's going t be hard as at the start of Beta, we were allowed 50 characters and as much AD as we could generate.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Posts: 1,371Member Arc User

    How's about we don't nerf anybody. and instead segregate players of different level, so that everybody has an equal chance to win.

    The Devs have been trying for over 5 years and it hasn't happened yet. By the way, 'Balanced play' (for the NBA) was first proposed in the 1950s. They haven't got it right yet.

    Even with identical armor, feats and powers, the 'Best' players are still going to win most of the time. No one can make people 'equal', they always try to be the best they can.

    The devs tried... until mod 6. Then the program that matches like players caused high wait times. So, they turned it off.

    I know outside influences cause some teams to excel... I'm a Baltimore Orioles fan.
  • dionchidionchi Posts: 755Member Arc User
    edited January 13



    The Devs have been trying for over 5 years and it hasn't happened yet. By the way, 'Balanced play' (for the NBA) was first proposed in the 1950s. They haven't got it right yet.

    Even with identical armor, feats and powers, the 'Best' players are still going to win most of the time. No one can make people 'equal', they always try to be the best they can.

    The developers have been trying to "balance" character attributes and powers among all player classes and I've already voiced my opinion that this is: "...an unobtainable myth".

    You can't have player class balance unless you get just rid of all other character classes and turn everyone into Guardian Fighters or whatever, do away with all other class players and make every character the same... in essence I think that is exactly what I see the developers attempting to do, take away individual class specific strengths and weaknesses - how things are supposed to be and attempt to make all character classes into something they were never intended or designed to be, "equal", in damage resistance, attack strength, etc.. That just not the way D&D character classes were designed... at least to the best of my knowledge.

    To avoid the high wait times trying to match players with various item levels - just negate all things associated with item levels entirely and start all players in accordance to their bare bones character levels and allow character level 10-19 contenders to enter and compete against each other, level 20-29 contenders to enter and compete against each other and so forth - problem solved.

    There seem to be a flaw in your logic of: "even with identical class armor the 'best' players are still going to win"...

    No individual "best player" is going to win consistently against a well organized and effective team effort even if they only have a mediocre strategy, but even if they do, it will be because they have some mad skills - not because they have the best "stuff"...

    That's what we've been talking about, returning PVP to the concept of teamwork, strategy and skill -vs- what we have now, which is - who has accumulated the best advantage in PVE - and brings it into PVP.

    My2¢
    Post edited by dionchi on
    DD~
  • grogthemagnifgrogthemagnif Posts: 1,435Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    dionchi said:



    The Devs have been trying for over 5 years and it hasn't happened yet. By the way, 'Balanced play' (for the NBA) was first proposed in the 1950s. They haven't got it right yet.

    Even with identical armor, feats and powers, the 'Best' players are still going to win most of the time. No one can make people 'equal', they always try to be the best they can.

    The developers have been trying to "balance" character attributes and powers among all player classes and I've already voiced my opinion that this is: "...an unobtainable myth".

    You can't have player class balance unless you get just rid of all other character classes and turn everyone into Guardian Fighters or whatever, do away with all other class players and make every character the same... in essence I think that is exactly what I see the developers attempting to do, take away individual class specific strengths and weaknesses - how things are supposed to be and attempt to make all character classes into something they were never intended or designed to be, "equal", in damage resistance, attack strength, etc.. That just not the way D&D character classes were designed... at least to the best of my knowledge.

    To avoid the high wait times trying to match players with various item levels - just negate all things associated with item levels entirely and start all players in accordance to their bare bones character levels and allow character level 10-19 contenders to enter and compete against each other, level 20-29 contenders to enter and compete against each other and so forth - problem solved.

    There seem to be a flaw in your logic of: "even with identical class armor the 'best' players are still going to win"...

    No individual "best player" is going to win consistently against a well organized and effective team effort even if they only have a mediocre strategy, but even if they do, it will be because they have some mad skills - not because they have the best "stuff"...

    That's what we've been talking about, returning PVP to the concept of teamwork, strategy and skill -vs- what we have now, which is - who has accumulated the best advantage in PVE - and brings it into PVP.

    My2¢
    I agree with your first 3 paragraphs.

    I also agree that 'You can't have player class balance' because the players will unbalance any attempt in their striving to be the best they can be. You're right that that is not the way D&D character classes were designed, they were designed to use their strengths to cover the weaknesses of their other party members.

    Competing player level vs nearby levels and eliminating item levels begs the question - OK, what are they going to do, throw rocks at each other? Weapons and offhands are part of IL. Problem created.


    There seem to be a flaw in your logic of: "even with identical class armor the 'best' players are still going to win"...
    The answer is in your last paragraph - the best players already use the concept of teamwork, strategy and skill


    Usually good teams attract and single 'Best players', making the team better. While I agree that a team of 1 Good Player and 4 PUGs is worse than a trained team and two trained teams will keep the competition close and competitive.

    We used to have good PvP Armors, but it was very currency costly and took dozens of PvP battles to accumulate. There are no IL600-700 armor pieces to be had yet to PvP in 2019, there will be IL 600-750 PvE pieces to be had in 2019 (Mod 16 650 IL, Mod 17 700 IL, Mod 18 750 IL).

    Mostly we agree, but since PvP is only part of MMOs, it could be dropped and the stronghold currencies for the PvP specific structures changed to zone currencies, not currently in use for contributions to the Stronghold coffer.
  • dionchidionchi Posts: 755Member Arc User
    edited January 13


    I agree with your first 3 paragraphs.

    I also agree that 'You can't have player class balance' because the players will unbalance any attempt in their striving to be the best they can be. You're right that that is not the way D&D character classes were designed, they were designed to use their strengths to cover the weaknesses of their other party members.

    Competing player level vs nearby levels and eliminating item levels begs the question - OK, what are they going to do, throw rocks at each other? Weapons and offhands are part of IL. Problem created.


    There seem to be a flaw in your logic of: "even with identical class armor the 'best' players are still going to win"...
    The answer is in your last paragraph - the best players already use the concept of teamwork, strategy and skill


    Usually good teams attract and single 'Best players', making the team better. While I agree that a team of 1 Good Player and 4 PUGs is worse than a trained team and two trained teams will keep the competition close and competitive.

    We used to have good PvP Armors, but it was very currency costly and took dozens of PvP battles to accumulate. There are no IL600-700 armor pieces to be had yet to PvP in 2019, there will be IL 600-750 PvE pieces to be had in 2019 (Mod 16 650 IL, Mod 17 700 IL, Mod 18 750 IL).

    Mostly we agree, but since PvP is only part of MMOs, it could be dropped and the stronghold currencies for the PvP specific structures changed to zone currencies, not currently in use for contributions to the Stronghold coffer.

    I think suggesting PVP be completely eliminated is going to make a great deal of the Neverwinter player base unhappy, as well as deny another group the opportunity to try and learn whether or not they like PVP - not to mention an 'un-coding' nightmare for the programmers, it's not like anyone can just turn off PVP and call it good.

    No, players won't be "throwing rocks" at each other in PVP... if you read back I suggested players get a class specific set of generic armor and weapons, all character classes get a set (with no enchantment slots) with the identical item level regardless of character level, all enhancements from PVE boons are also eliminated. Mounts and companions are dismissed and their applied player bonuses are also negated... every player competes based on their character level and accumulated experience - and by how well they are able to function as a team.

    The reason I think there has been such a decline in the interest and participation in PVP is I believe directly related to the inequality a lot of players face against players who have earned better boons, gear and enhancements in PVE and are able to bring those advantages into PVP.

    Good PVP teams usually do attract better players, but with all things being equal - equipment wise - every player has the opportunity to learn their place in a PVP team and become better just by participating. Even the most novice player will have the opportunity to progress and become better just by competing, learning from more experienced players... no buying or endless hours/days of grinding for better stuff in PVE that will give a contestant advantage in PVP.

    PVP has been returned to teams winning or losing based on experience, skill and teamwork - something every player can achieve, not who has the better advantage based on stuff they brought with them from PVE something not all players have the opportunity to take advantage of.
    DD~
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