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Mod 15 TR - Are we really that bad?
yopuko
Member Posts: 78 Arc User
Hello all!
I don't show my face around the forums very often, so let me introduce myself a bit. My TR is Enyo and I play on PC - I've played TR since July of 2013, and have run a popular guide on MmoMinds since December of 2016. Now, I've noticed since the Trickster Rogue 'nerfs' were announced, and updated to the preview server - the TR Community has been a bit nasty about the class being destroyed, and that it's dps was cut by 40%. The question is - is it true?
See, I've been doing some testing. To be fair; our damage may be down a bit, but by no means has it been cut by 40%, that is insanely inaccurate. Trickster Rogues are entirely still viable as a good dps class. Saboteur and Scoundrel received a massive buff - but I think more so Saboteur than anything.
The main reason I think a lot of Rogue's believe their Damage was cut by nearly half, is because they're continuously focusing on the fact that power-stacking was removed, instead of focusing on what boosts and self-buff options were made viable and available to be utilized.
I've been asking around too. The TRs that have tweaked their builds for Mod 15 are still able to dps fast ToNGs, Cradles and CRs. I've even heard a few say they feel their damage has slightly increased - I'm not so sure about that one though, lol, let's not push it!
I just want to encourage everyone to actually go out and try the Trickster Rogue for themselves, before bashing the changes. We cannot melt Ras Ni in 15 seconds, and take half his HP in 1 SoD anymore, no, that was so broken to begin with - but we are pretty on par and equal to other DPS Classes, in a much fairer, and still extremely viable way.
I'm hoping this encourages people to pick their TRs back up again, instead of quitting on them. The Trickster Rogue community has always been one to find a way to thrive and make the best of what they have, no matter the circumstances. I don't see why this should change now. Continue to play your TRs - they're still good, I promise!
My guide can be found at: https://wp.me/s6493R-enyo
(Gear Page needs fixed / updated, accidentally deleted part of the rings section, need to update a few pieces too, but wanted to test them first before doing so)
Thanks all and have a good one!
I don't show my face around the forums very often, so let me introduce myself a bit. My TR is Enyo and I play on PC - I've played TR since July of 2013, and have run a popular guide on MmoMinds since December of 2016. Now, I've noticed since the Trickster Rogue 'nerfs' were announced, and updated to the preview server - the TR Community has been a bit nasty about the class being destroyed, and that it's dps was cut by 40%. The question is - is it true?
See, I've been doing some testing. To be fair; our damage may be down a bit, but by no means has it been cut by 40%, that is insanely inaccurate. Trickster Rogues are entirely still viable as a good dps class. Saboteur and Scoundrel received a massive buff - but I think more so Saboteur than anything.
The main reason I think a lot of Rogue's believe their Damage was cut by nearly half, is because they're continuously focusing on the fact that power-stacking was removed, instead of focusing on what boosts and self-buff options were made viable and available to be utilized.
I've been asking around too. The TRs that have tweaked their builds for Mod 15 are still able to dps fast ToNGs, Cradles and CRs. I've even heard a few say they feel their damage has slightly increased - I'm not so sure about that one though, lol, let's not push it!
I just want to encourage everyone to actually go out and try the Trickster Rogue for themselves, before bashing the changes. We cannot melt Ras Ni in 15 seconds, and take half his HP in 1 SoD anymore, no, that was so broken to begin with - but we are pretty on par and equal to other DPS Classes, in a much fairer, and still extremely viable way.
I'm hoping this encourages people to pick their TRs back up again, instead of quitting on them. The Trickster Rogue community has always been one to find a way to thrive and make the best of what they have, no matter the circumstances. I don't see why this should change now. Continue to play your TRs - they're still good, I promise!
My guide can be found at: https://wp.me/s6493R-enyo
(Gear Page needs fixed / updated, accidentally deleted part of the rings section, need to update a few pieces too, but wanted to test them first before doing so)
Thanks all and have a good one!
Discord - Enyolius | IGN - Enyo @ Yopuko (NWPC)
4
Comments
When it comes to focusing on boosts and self-buff options that were made viable and available...there arent any worth a mention. All that was there before is now worse than before with only exception of maybe Oppressive Darkness (still not sure if its worth it over Infiltrator's Action) and Gloaming Cut (this power feels like a move from GWF's arsenal, even our Lashing Blade is faster than GC).
So far I only ran Cradle and it was quite humiliating. I intend to run Tomb as single dps as well as against another dps and CR as well. I already know that one-phasing Tomb bosses is still doable with party good enough but that doesnt show how much our damage worsened.
If TR players have party members willing to take them as main DPS in current meta it shouldnt be an issue dealing with any content but when we get put against other DPS classes, like in Cradle, then we look like cheerleaders.
I have said it many times, PVP is the bane of MMOs. Why does every game have to be Fortnight?
Mobility was nerfed....
Sneaky stabber was changed and made useless......
Crafting was puked purged...
80% of the people on discord are talking about a new game to play
~Skyye Lakara~
If you enjoy the TR play style, like myself, then sure you could try to adjust your built to the new changes and run some content, but if you want to play the dps role (the only role available to the TR class) in competitive endgame runs ... then do not expect a fair treatment
You claim that TRs were doing 300% higher damage than classes such as GWFs, provide the evidence please. This is BS.
On the other hand I can provide you with links of GWFs and GFs melting bosses in seconds, for a span of SEVERAL mods now ...
TRs not adjusting to hardship? PLEASE don't make me laugh, TRs were the least desirable class in endgame groups for the longest time period of the game. If you couldn't adapt then you didn't run. We've been adjusting and tweaking for so long, it is no longer fun, why play a game that isn't fun?
You blame powerlooping, If you know how it works then you may also know that TRs were powerlooping in order to compensate for the very low damage output of their powers. You want to take away powerlooping? sure no problem but at least boost our skills to have a comparable damage output to other dps classes! But you know what they did? They removed the ability to powerloops AND crippled (instead of boosting) the main damage powers!!!
If you don't/know or understand that then you are nowhere close to an experienced PVE TR. That is even if you ever played a TR. And if that is the case why are you trolling this TR thread? Have you seen me in your OP/CW threads flaming your class and begging the developers to nerf you?
9 mods ago.. really? Sorry.. CWs are not competitive with GWFs and haven't been since mod 5. We do ok, we have been a viable DPS class only because massive eq and buffing power creep has kept us able to do DPS since our namesake duty has been nerfed out of desirability. A like eqd GWF at a similar skill level has always in modern times outperformed a CW. Don't try to moan and pretend you're the only picked on one.
Anyway lets just ignore the non-TR trolls that join TR thread. I would guess that the majority of them are PVPers that hold a grudge against TRs as a whole ...
Everyone keeps throwing out ridiculously high numbers with nothing to back them up - so before people complain " we lost over 40-50% of our damage " - did you test it yourself? Did you test some new builds? Or are you just repeating it because that's what you heard?
I keep seeing people saying they won't even bother to test a new build because it's " not worth it "- yet, how can anyone say definitely the damage is so nerfed without even testing out new potential builds properly and thoroughly? If you stick with the same TR build from before - then yes, your dps will suck! With some changes to powers, rotations and feats though - it's not bad at all.
The main problem I see here, is that everyone is too busy whining because TRs aren't brokenly stupid hdps anymore; and instead, have been pretty fairly balanced in comparison to other dps classes. I'm sure if GWF's came along and could hit IBS for 300-400m+ no problem, TRs would be crying the blues that their damage is stupidly overpowered. But if the TR class is stupidly overpowered - it's fine? There's no logic behind that.
A good player, that is good at his or her class - will make the class great. The class does not make the player great. The Trickster Rogue is viable, capable and well worth playing and investing time / AD into if you enjoy it. So how about, instead of constantly trolling the forums, the Devs, and the entire Trickster Rogue community - use that time to figure out how to play your class again, find a new powerful build, maybe even better than the one I pieced together.
I'm not trying to be mean or disrespectful here, nor am I trying to step on anyone's toes. I get it - we went from DPS Gods to.... normal hdps. But it's what needed done for the sake of balance. I don't want to destroy the TR Community, I want to help build it. I want people to see how fun TRs are, how strong and potent they are, and encourage them to continue to build or play them, or even pick one up from scratch.
If you try to go against that idea - you don't really enjoy and support the TR Class and Community then. You just like and desire the feeling of being on top of every other class, that's all.
Thanks for reading.
- Enyo
> In response to the comments here;
>
> Everyone keeps throwing out ridiculously high numbers with nothing to back them up - so before people complain " we lost over 40-50% of our damage " - did you test it yourself? Did you test some new builds? Or are you just repeating it because that's what you heard?
>
> I keep seeing people saying they won't even bother to test a new build because it's " not worth it "- yet, how can anyone say definitely the damage is so nerfed without even testing out new potential builds properly and thoroughly? If you stick with the same TR build from before - then yes, your dps will suck! With some changes to powers, rotations and feats though - it's not bad at all.
>
> The main problem I see here, is that everyone is too busy whining because TRs aren't brokenly stupid hdps anymore; and instead, have been pretty fairly balanced in comparison to other dps classes. I'm sure if GWF's came along and could hit IBS for 300-400m+ no problem, TRs would be crying the blues that their damage is stupidly overpowered. But if the TR class is stupidly overpowered - it's fine? There's no logic behind that.
>
> A good player, that is good at his or her class - will make the class great. The class does not make the player great. The Trickster Rogue is viable, capable and well worth playing and investing time / AD into if you enjoy it. So how about, instead of constantly trolling the forums, the Devs, and the entire Trickster Rogue community - use that time to figure out how to play your class again, find a new powerful build, maybe even better than the one I pieced together.
>
> I'm not trying to be mean or disrespectful here, nor am I trying to step on anyone's toes. I get it - we went from DPS Gods to.... normal hdps. But it's what needed done for the sake of balance. I don't want to destroy the TR Community, I want to help build it. I want people to see how fun TRs are, how strong and potent they are, and encourage them to continue to build or play them, or even pick one up from scratch.
>
> If you try to go against that idea - you don't really enjoy and support the TR Class and Community then. You just like and desire the feeling of being on top of every other class, that's all.
>
> Thanks for reading.
>
> - Enyo
I never once complained over damage ... in fact I always played saboteur path since the days of banelorne fallbanner....
I hate the mobility nerfs..
I hate the changes to sabo path sneaky stabber.... the stealth regeneration does nothing to keep you in stealth and all other abilities put you back in stealth before regeneration of stealth even happens.
I do like the encounter cooldown bonus to one of our class features, but again the mo utility nerf there too sucks.
I overall gained some damage because gloaming cut hits faster than before.
Stealth nerf also sucks and has a few perma stealth bugs...
100% non critical from stealth nerf sucks too....
However if you would be so kind, find a BIS group (at the very least 17k, that includes besides your TR another top dps class such as a GWF)) and run several dungeons over and over again with the exact same group composition while collecting damage data from your TR and the other DPs class (of course each class would have to be honestly trying to out-dps the other). Then publish the experiment results here without altering them in any way.
If you do that and the results show that your TR deals statistically equal damage to the other top dps class then you would have proven your point. Please at least 10 runs with the most skilled and geared dps you can find.
Normally the developers would have to run such tests, but then again they don't seem to understand how the TR mechanics work outside PVP
Maybe some can use those pics to get encouraged.
My Warlock HB-Fury, not much to say fully dps-specced, near BIS, selfish setup and >4 years active on PC.
I also know this proves nothing, except maybe you might say I simply suck on my warlock, but that´s not the hole truth.
Both TR´s have low level companions btw. and are near same level, one might have adapted and dealt triple dps of the other TR.
Itemlevel: GF 14k - DC 16k - 1.TR 14.8k - 2.TR 14k - SW 17.5k
First TR looks like this, all rank 9 and 8th in a companion.
https://imgur.com/a/EMPPrAi
Turtle overall damage: 1. warlock, 2. TR-1, 3. TR-2
https://imgur.com/a/RCE8Qaf
Turtle TR-1 setup:
https://i.imgur.com/aE96U6H.png
Drufi overall damage: 1. warlock, 2. TR-1, 3. TR-2
Damage: 120kk 78kk 23kk
https://i.imgur.com/gNSObgj.png
Drufi 1. TR´s setup:
https://i.imgur.com/tUiwAgG.png
The hole run:
https://i.imgur.com/nNFVVyI.png
I am full dps, No buff for teammates outside pop, 100%crit 80kpower selfbuffed, and no, Soulbinder is not much better in that setup. I can speed kill bosses that way.
That bleeding damage reminds me of TR,'s 2 years ago somehow
Nonetheless I truly thank you for sharing the data, I encourage more people to do so. If i ever find the motivation to respec my TR again and run endgame content, then i'll provide some data myself too. However, I don't see this happening any time soon, its so much easier playing on my other two mains gf and hr. It was fun to play the TR because it was more challenging but after yeas and years of developer and pvp-player hate it looses its appeal ...
When you know TR class to the core you dont need to test, you read patch notes and realize the class is just a shadow of what it previously was. If being at the bottom of all DPS classes is not bad at all, then ok.
That is simply not true. TR's reported everything that was stupidly overpowered. Double dip SoD in mod 12 and mod 14, AoC multi proc with Smoke Bomb in mod 14, we reported Powerlooping even tho it wasnt used generally except vs two bosses - Arcolith and sometimes vs Orcus when buffs were lower. We never asked for SoD to be increased from 50% to 75%.
A good player will only be capable to do as much as the class allows him to. When class capabilities are cut in half you cant do anything about it.
We went from really good DPS, being the best only vs Arcolith, to lowest DPS among gwf, hr, cw, gf and sw.
I myself was enjoying the class since mod 8 when we werent that great, when i played on weak PC which automatically cut my damage in half, i still enjoyed it, it was never an issue of being on top of every other class. M15 TR is not what i would call enjoyable.
@schietindebux DPS SW was able to outdps TR in FBI easily if there were no AC DC and OP present, even in MOD 14. Even in mod 14, TR class was heavily depending on AC DC and OP and now in mod 15 even with those two classes present nothing changes since our special treatment that we had with those two classes present is removed.
@demonmonger Did you triple check this? There was no cap at all from what i remember.
But it shows that this "old setup" , focussed on Duellist Flurry+Bleed feeding SoD that way, is capable to do pretty awesome in random runs, where an average Boss fight last maybe 2min.
I assure you that I don´t know one GWF so far with halve of my stats capable to reach those numbers, it looks more like they deal 1/2 of my damage in those runs... if at all.
Also how long would someone be happy by being limited to running only average dungeons?
Why would you compare against a 8.7k GWF ??? (you said you were 17.5k sw) Run with an experienced GWF of your IL (17-18k) and if he/she doesn't at least double the dps of a support specced SW then we are probably talking about different games ... or you are referring to mod 5 or something
> In response to the comments here;
>
> Everyone keeps throwing out ridiculously high numbers with nothing to back them up - so before people complain " we lost over 40-50% of our damage " - did you test it yourself? Did you test some new builds? Or are you just repeating it because that's what you heard?
>
> I keep seeing people saying they won't even bother to test a new build because it's " not worth it "- yet, how can anyone say definitely the damage is so nerfed without even testing out new potential builds properly and thoroughly? If you stick with the same TR build from before - then yes, your dps will suck! With some changes to powers, rotations and feats though - it's not bad at all.
>
> The main problem I see here, is that everyone is too busy whining because TRs aren't brokenly stupid hdps anymore; and instead, have been pretty fairly balanced in comparison to other dps classes. I'm sure if GWF's came along and could hit IBS for 300-400m+ no problem, TRs would be crying the blues that their damage is stupidly overpowered. But if the TR class is stupidly overpowered - it's fine? There's no logic behind that.
>
> A good player, that is good at his or her class - will make the class great. The class does not make the player great. The Trickster Rogue is viable, capable and well worth playing and investing time / AD into if you enjoy it. So how about, instead of constantly trolling the forums, the Devs, and the entire Trickster Rogue community - use that time to figure out how to play your class again, find a new powerful build, maybe even better than the one I pieced together.
>
> I'm not trying to be mean or disrespectful here, nor am I trying to step on anyone's toes. I get it - we went from DPS Gods to.... normal hdps. But it's what needed done for the sake of balance. I don't want to destroy the TR Community, I want to help build it. I want people to see how fun TRs are, how strong and potent they are, and encourage them to continue to build or play them, or even pick one up from scratch.
>
> If you try to go against that idea - you don't really enjoy and support the TR Class and Community then. You just like and desire the feeling of being on top of every other class, that's all.
>
> Thanks for reading.
>
> - Enyo
>
>
> Yes, i tested it myself. Yes, i tried some new builds.
>
> When you know TR class to the core you dont need to test, you read patch notes and realize the class is just a shadow of what it previously was. If being at the bottom of all DPS classes is not bad at all, then ok.
>
> That is simply not true. TR's reported everything that was stupidly overpowered. Double dip SoD in mod 12 and mod 14, AoC multi proc with Smoke Bomb in mod 14, we reported Powerlooping even tho it wasnt used generally except vs two bosses - Arcolith and sometimes vs Orcus when buffs were lower. We never asked for SoD to be increased from 50% to 75%.
>
> A good player will only be capable to do as much as the class allows him to. When class capabilities are cut in half you cant do anything about it.
>
> We went from really good DPS, being the best only vs Arcolith, to lowest DPS among gwf, hr, cw, gf and sw.
>
> I myself was enjoying the class since mod 8 when we werent that great, when i played on weak PC which automatically cut my damage in half, i still enjoyed it, it was never an issue of being on top of every other class. M15 TR is not what i would call enjoyable.
>
>
> @schietindebux DPS SW was able to outdps TR in FBI easily if there were no AC DC and OP present, even in MOD 14. Even in mod 14, TR class was heavily depending on AC DC and OP and now in mod 15 even with those two classes present nothing changes since our special treatment that we had with those two classes present is removed.
>
> @demonmonger Did you triple check this? There was no cap at all from what i remember.
Foundry is up... it seems cap has been removed. Range of attack doesn't seem as far though.
And itc is still messed up
More testing is needed
Scoundrel should not win on mobs against Sabo since the Skullcracker is single target buff.
2. For those that didn't understood yet for some reason it was not YOUR damage that was cut down by X%, it was the maximum damage a TR could do on average situations, including AoE and Single Target.
If I were to use the same logic as its being used here I could say that I only used Gloaming cut so this mod I got a buff so big that it almost double my damage.
3. There's no such thing as a non viable dps in this game, why? simply because buffs are way to big, so much that you can basically one-shot Strahd without any self buffs, for example and yes I do mean one-shot as in one hit.
4. I can tell that you are posting this with good intentions but unfortunately it's not really accurate, grabbing my example from response nº2 if you weren't playing the class to its potential the damage loss will be less and less noticeable, that's also another thing I didn't like about the changes, they decreased the skill ceiling in PvE at least.
5. One thing that people miss to understand a lot is that people are defending that Trs were not too strong, they were, most of the Trs say they were, almost nobody said that they didn't need a fix here in there, the problem is that what was needed was the fixing of interactions, or in case of removal of them compensate somewhere else, not what was done unfortunately, we only got the fix part and instead of compensate somewhere else we got the opposite.
6. This is just an extra bit but I wanted to warn you that since you use and used the MW weapons their damage was just increased by 16.3% this mod at least for TR.
7. This is just an extra extra bit, if you were to sum up all the buffs you can possibly get this mod from dailies+ feats+... you would still be a lot behind compared to what you could get in the last mod so even if somehow you find a new better build/rotation it still at a loss, this is not even counting stuff like the loss of recovery, the aura of courage damage loss and others.
8. This is just an extra extra extra bit, comparing yourselves to random people in terms of dps is the worse you can do, for example just today I did ReQ and my 11k hr beat a 16k tr, again just to show how bad of a comparison it can be.
9. Also one last thing, when u said that there's no math proving the damage loss I guess you didn't try to check on the Tr Feedback thread but I don't blame you since you don't seem to spend much time in here ( I don't either) , you can find them at the following pages: 3( quite a bit of math), 9 (no math since it refers to the last post), 15( has a bit of math), u can just scroll fast since my avatar is pink and easy to see, cheers ^^
But, all of that is just hiding the truth which is in the math and testing. The maximum damage capabilities are now lower. Significantly so. Especially in relation to the other dps classes. And that's really what's the sand in the craw.
1. From my PoV , running vs a pretty good TR yesterday there is a significant damage-gap, concerning MI-sab.
At least that build did not shine in focus damage.
2. MI-exe looks better in terms of focus damage to me. But I miss a competetive run vs my buglock so far, and yes that class does good on single targets also in mod 15 ... due to not fixed bugs.
Best way to compare is 2. boss in CR imo, i gonna feedback in case I find an exaptable testing object with a MI-exe setup.