Of course it isn't Cryptic's or Neverwinter's fault, even if accused "exploit" players are only playing the game withing the game's design parameters and are unaware they aren't supposed to do what they are able to do...
You can claim that people did not know they were doing something they weren't supposed to do all you want. That doesn't change the fact that they knew exactly what they were doing and that it was not the way the game was supposed to function. When the mob doesn't fight back, and when you have to kill yourself in an area where you otherwise cannot be killed, then you know full well that you're engaging in an exploit. Based on the chatter in Barovia (in particular), it was very clear that people understood they were exploiting. Being an apologist for people doing something they knew full well was an exploit is not a good look on you.
This is not to say that it couldn't have been handled better by the developers. It should not have been left in the game for almost three months on PC. If there was a reason it could not be rectified in a shorter time, they should have communicated clearly that there is an exploit and anyone caught using it will suffer the consequences. Even so, players knew it was an exploit and they knew the possible consequences for doing it. No amount of whinging about it can ever change that simple fact.
With the conversion of salvage, from astral diamonds to refinement points. It seems like their removing the use of alts, that have stored up 100k bonus on salvaging gear into astral diamonds. This is pretty bold, because now the only things alts are really useable for is the invoke / coffer of celstial artifacts (Coal Wards). Aside from the task changes of course via professions.
Now, as a returning player. I view the above as a double edged sword. On one side: Yes I agree that there is way too much AD in the game, and its only getting worse. So with that in mind. Yes I think this is a good thing. However, others won't view it in that light simply because most people are actually quite greedy. Look at the sheer amount of cheaters this game has had over the years. Where did all that AD come from.
On the other hand, everyone who has alts. Are either going to become inactive, or become invoke alts. Which is a drastic change, because now players will have to actually play them, to gain AD, and use up that bonus from invoking.
Admin. You would have been better off not banning the cheaters, but instead. Reset them back to fresh level 1. Sitting at the initial intro quest. With the one starter bag, or two. And nothing else. No mounts. No companions. A fully reset to 0 richs tab. Everything gone. I would leave them their character slots though. Every toon on the account would be the same. Level 1. Bank and shared bank: Empty. Completely Empty. Auction house and mail, and of course zen exchange - emptied.
Bye bye vip too. Since it was probably bought with zen, via cheated AD.
Oh, and I would also ban them from posting in the forums. Its more fun to listen to them in zone chat in PE.
summed it up perfectly, only thing i don't agree with is the whole not dropping the ban-hammer ordeal, personally i think people that cheat with huge exploits like that got what they deserved.
not sure if it's been posted, but in hopes to explain why an AD drain is needed on PC this morning (8:05am EST) the zen exchange is at 30,760,408 and at 500AD per zen which means there is over 15,380,204,000 (15 Billion) AD on the market and not in circulation...
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,452Arc User
not sure if it's been posted, but in hopes to explain why an AD drain is needed on PC this morning (8:05am EST) the zen exchange is at 30,760,408 and at 500AD per zen which means there is over 15,380,204,000 (15 Billion) AD on the market and not in circulation...
Having 15 billion in Zax market does not actually say anything. It only says there are 15 billion in Zax market. However, people can interpret that since there are 15 billion in Zax market, there must be 100 times of that in circulation. I believe Dev posted the actual amount months ago. I don't know what it is now expanded to.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Of course it isn't Cryptic's or Neverwinter's fault, even if accused "exploit" players are only playing the game withing the game's design parameters and are unaware they aren't supposed to do what they are able to do...
You can claim that people did not know they were doing something they weren't supposed to do all you want. That doesn't change the fact that they knew exactly what they were doing and that it was not the way the game was supposed to function. When the mob doesn't fight back, and when you have to kill yourself in an area where you otherwise cannot be killed, then you know full well that you're engaging in an exploit. Based on the chatter in Barovia (in particular), it was very clear that people understood they were exploiting. Being an apologist for people doing something they knew full well was an exploit is not a good look on you.
This is not to say that it couldn't have been handled better by the developers. It should not have been left in the game for almost three months on PC. If there was a reason it could not be rectified in a shorter time, they should have communicated clearly that there is an exploit and anyone caught using it will suffer the consequences. Even so, players knew it was an exploit and they knew the possible consequences for doing it. No amount of whinging about it can ever change that simple fact.
Of course people knew what they were doing, does that mean they knew it was an exploit or newly determined exploit since the game was designed that way and all players were doing is playing in in a manner the game allowed and was most beneficial to them?
And granted the developers could have just made it so things don't stack or no more than one of that item could be in a player's inventory at any one time, which would have accomplished the same thing - but they didn't.
To me it is kind of like someone moving the goalposts, or changing the rules after the teams have taken the field and the game's started... but again that's just my opinion.
Honestly stacking professions items and opening them during a two times refinement gems event would ever be considered an exploit instead of a just benefit I recognized due to my accumulated player experience. Is this a new problem, or just problem that has begun to occur more frequently because so many other things have been taken away from players?
When someone runs around mobs in a random dungeon instead of engaging them, like in the Temple of the Spider and the Caverns of Karrundax for example, is that an "exploit"?
I guess it kind of depends on your point of view now doesn't it...
Obviously the developers put those mobs in the dungeon so players should engage them all, shouldn't they - or since the developers also put in a couple of shortcuts allowing so players to avoid confronting a mob or two, is it just another example of some players learning from experience, how to play smarter?
Some professions and other rewards were designed to be stacked, they have no expiration date, so if a person opens them later instead of immediately is that an exploit?
If players open those bags when it isn't 2x refinement gems event that isn't an exploit - if a player opens those bags later during a 2x refinement gems event that is an exploit - or is it just players learning how to play smarter?
Let's at least be real here...
There are unarguably definite exploitable instances mistakenly programmed in the game and I have no qualms about Neverwinter taking steps to sew those instances up... but then there are also techniques players have learned that just allows them to play smarter based on their experience. Those instances as a rule do not harm the game economy, nor do they put any other player(s) at a disadvantage since those instances are available to all players regardless of character level, item level or in game wealth.
Are all instances learned over time that benefits players who puts in the time and effort to become more proficient at how they play Neverwinter to be considered "exploits"?
And when all of those programmed newly classified "exploits" are removed from the game, does everyone think people will still be interested in playing when their only alternative above a certain character level is hours of grinding, or purchasing equipment and items to remain viable in much of the new game content?
As it is becoming, about the only people who can afford to play Neverwinter are those players who have the time and opportunity to spend hours grinding content to acquire items they need or the (RW) cash to purchase those items beyond a certain level.
If Neverwinter wants the majority of people to play their character to level 70 and then just give up on the game, it's my opinion they're headed in the right direction...
However if Neverwinter wants to encourage more people to continue to play Neverwinter - even beyond reaching level 70, they are going to have to quit trying to redefine game "exploits" whenever a player discovers a method that allows them to play smarter.
I love this game and have been playing almost since beta, but over the years it seems the company has lost it's way and are now more concerned with keeping people who already have theirs and have been using actual exploits for years, rather than trying to attract new players and giving them the opportunity to discover little 'Easter eggs' that they will be able to use to evolve their characters as they gain more experience.
With the conversion of salvage, from astral diamonds to refinement points. It seems like their removing the use of alts, that have stored up 100k bonus on salvaging gear into astral diamonds. This is pretty bold, because now the only things alts are really useable for is the invoke / coffer of celstial artifacts (Coal Wards). Aside from the task changes of course via professions.
Now, as a returning player. I view the above as a double edged sword. On one side: Yes I agree that there is way too much AD in the game, and its only getting worse. So with that in mind. Yes I think this is a good thing. However, others won't view it in that light simply because most people are actually quite greedy. Look at the sheer amount of cheaters this game has had over the years. Where did all that AD come from.
On the other hand, everyone who has alts. Are either going to become inactive, or become invoke alts. Which is a drastic change, because now players will have to actually play them, to gain AD, and use up that bonus from invoking.
Admin. You would have been better off not banning the cheaters, but instead. Reset them back to fresh level 1. Sitting at the initial intro quest. With the one starter bag, or two. And nothing else. No mounts. No companions. A fully reset to 0 richs tab. Everything gone. I would leave them their character slots though. Every toon on the account would be the same. Level 1. Bank and shared bank: Empty. Completely Empty. Auction house and mail, and of course zen exchange - emptied.
Bye bye vip too. Since it was probably bought with zen, via cheated AD.
Oh, and I would also ban them from posting in the forums. Its more fun to listen to them in zone chat in PE.
They can't post in chat neither since you want to reset them to level 1. That means they are on the beach. When you reach PE, you are level 4 and you still cannot post in chat until after you finish a lot of quests.
That would be true only if they also reset the flag that enables chat. After all, you only have to get one character to level 15 or whatever to use chat. After that, all characters on your account can use chat. @terrek41 has a good idea, and not resetting the account flags would make it ... interesting.
Actually, it isn't lvl 15 that unlocks chat now. You have to complete 5 quest chains up through Helms hold, or Neverdeath.
Players have always tried to outsmart the game/devs in all games, be they online or not.
In one game we learned how to ninja-capture a castle in an open-world non-consensual pvp zone which would give those who held the castle considerable buffs. We did it by literally getting everyone to stand in the same spot and move as one so as not to aggro the defending mobs. Right up to the point where we could kill the boss mob and capture the castle. That took some skill and co-ordination to do with 30-40 toons at a time. But man was it sweet everytime it worked.
That was then considered to be an exploit because we "weren't capturing the castle the way the developers intended".
Players have always tried to outsmart the game/devs in all games, be they online or not.
In one game we learned how to ninja-capture a castle in an open-world non-consensual pvp zone which would give those who held the castle considerable buffs. We did it by literally getting everyone to stand in the same spot and move as one so as not to aggro the defending mobs. Right up to the point where we could kill the boss mob and capture the castle. That took some skill and co-ordination to do with 30-40 toons at a time. But man was it sweet everytime it worked.
That was then considered to be an exploit because we "weren't capturing the castle the way the developers intended".
Well, dionchi is the one moving the goalposts here. It doesn't take a genius to understand that there is something wrong when the mob does not fight back. It's as simple as that.
As for your example, that's just butthurt on the part of the developers. What you were doing there is simply staying out of the defenders' aggro range, and that's no different than running along the benches in the dark hallway in Castle Never. The zombies in that area of CN have a specific aggro range, and the benches are merely outside out of it.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
As it is becoming, about the only people who can afford to play Neverwinter are those players who have the time and opportunity to spend hours grinding content to acquire items they need or the (RW) cash to purchase those items beyond a certain level.
If a F2P game is to be viable, there has to be an incentive for people to spend money. The "pay to avoid grind" model is a pretty fair approach IMO - some people have a lot of time, but little money - they can grind to get everything they want. Others have limited time, but a lot of spare cash - they can pay for the same items.
If you want to be able to get everything without spending either the time or money, sorry, you are going to be disappointed.
Players have always tried to outsmart the game/devs in all games, be they online or not.
In one game we learned how to ninja-capture a castle in an open-world non-consensual pvp zone which would give those who held the castle considerable buffs. We did it by literally getting everyone to stand in the same spot and move as one so as not to aggro the defending mobs. Right up to the point where we could kill the boss mob and capture the castle. That took some skill and co-ordination to do with 30-40 toons at a time. But man was it sweet everytime it worked.
That was then considered to be an exploit because we "weren't capturing the castle the way the developers intended".
Well, dionchi is the one moving the goalposts here. It doesn't take a genius to understand that there is something wrong when the mob does not fight back. It's as simple as that.
As for your example, that's just butthurt on the part of the developers. What you were doing there is simply staying out of the defenders' aggro range, and that's no different than running along the benches in the dark hallway in Castle Never. The zombies in that area of CN have a specific aggro range, and the benches are merely outside out of it.
I'm not here to argue or fight
I haven't also read the entire thread either so please forgive me - so if I am in game and there is a mob not fighting back why shouldn't I kill it? Sorry I am a bit lost here on how that could be considered an exploit mate
Players have always tried to outsmart the game/devs in all games, be they online or not.
In one game we learned how to ninja-capture a castle in an open-world non-consensual pvp zone which would give those who held the castle considerable buffs. We did it by literally getting everyone to stand in the same spot and move as one so as not to aggro the defending mobs. Right up to the point where we could kill the boss mob and capture the castle. That took some skill and co-ordination to do with 30-40 toons at a time. But man was it sweet everytime it worked.
That was then considered to be an exploit because we "weren't capturing the castle the way the developers intended".
Well, dionchi is the one moving the goalposts here. It doesn't take a genius to understand that there is something wrong when the mob does not fight back. It's as simple as that.
As for your example, that's just butthurt on the part of the developers. What you were doing there is simply staying out of the defenders' aggro range, and that's no different than running along the benches in the dark hallway in Castle Never. The zombies in that area of CN have a specific aggro range, and the benches are merely outside out of it.
I'm not here to argue or fight
I haven't also read the entire thread either so please forgive me - so if I am in game and there is a mob not fighting back why shouldn't I kill it? Sorry I am a bit lost here on how that could be considered an exploit mate
Back to the thread topic "AD drain everyone will welcome".
There have been quite a few ideas tossed out some better than others.
Inevitably it all boils down a couple of salient points:
1. Neverwinter can try to reduce the amount of AD's in the game by continuing to impose new and inventive ways to nerf the opportunity for players obtain astral diamonds...
2. Or they can try to offer more items and services many players would actually consider buying.
Unfortunately, to me it appears the game has decided to concentrate on the former, rather than the latter, but then of course that is their prerogative.
DD~
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited November 2018
OK, this thread has been cleansed a bit. Please keep it on topic.
Now to give people the real answer as to why AD sinks are necessary:
Here's a bit from Economics 101. First of all game economies are in fact economies. People who say they aren't "real" because they don't have "real" currency is a laymen. There's nothing more "real" in "real economies." However since the way resources are produced and consumed is different in a game than in a "real economy" there are differences in how they remain healthy.
I was going to make a novel about basic economics but Extra Credits already covered most of what you need to know about sinks and it'd be more interesting than reading a wall of text at least a full post's character limit. As they say in the video, they could make an entire video series on the intricacies of MMO economics.
One thing I want to emphasize that they implied but did not explicitly state is that EVERYTHING is a currency. Both in the real world and in MMO's. Those who like to drone on about how game economies aren't "real" economies is because they have some unjustified reverence to "real" currency. They think if it is not a dollar it has no value and that is WRONG.
Modern currencies came into existence because it is complicated to translate the value of an egg into the value of milk especially if the person who has milk doesn't want eggs. Currency was invented so a person who has eggs can sell their eggs for an item with a perceived value and then use that item to buy something they want such as milk. Now obviously I am being facetious with eggs and milk but the need to translate value of items is why currency was invented.
There is nothing more intrinsically valuable about a dollar than an Astral Diamond. However in order for AD to remain valuable it needs to be removed from the economy after a period of time.
not sure if it's been posted, but in hopes to explain why an AD drain is needed on PC this morning (8:05am EST) the zen exchange is at 30,760,408 and at 500AD per zen which means there is over 15,380,204,000 (15 Billion) AD on the market and not in circulation...
And finally I need to correct this backwards calculation. How did none of you correct this!?
There is 30M AD in the backlog. It can't tell you how much AD isn't in circulation. What you can extrapolate is that 60K Zen would need to be added into the system to remove the backlog momentarily.
Since Zen is a 100% sink and AD is often not the Zen leaves circulation MUCH faster. If that money was spent in the GE 90% of it would be back in the ZAX while all of that Zen fizzled into some sever in the Zen Store.
Comments
This is not to say that it couldn't have been handled better by the developers. It should not have been left in the game for almost three months on PC. If there was a reason it could not be rectified in a shorter time, they should have communicated clearly that there is an exploit and anyone caught using it will suffer the consequences. Even so, players knew it was an exploit and they knew the possible consequences for doing it. No amount of whinging about it can ever change that simple fact.
However, people can interpret that since there are 15 billion in Zax market, there must be 100 times of that in circulation. I believe Dev posted the actual amount months ago. I don't know what it is now expanded to.
And granted the developers could have just made it so things don't stack or no more than one of that item could be in a player's inventory at any one time, which would have accomplished the same thing - but they didn't.
To me it is kind of like someone moving the goalposts, or changing the rules after the teams have taken the field and the game's started... but again that's just my opinion.
Honestly stacking professions items and opening them during a two times refinement gems event would ever be considered an exploit instead of a just benefit I recognized due to my accumulated player experience. Is this a new problem, or just problem that has begun to occur more frequently because so many other things have been taken away from players?
When someone runs around mobs in a random dungeon instead of engaging them, like in the Temple of the Spider and the Caverns of Karrundax for example, is that an "exploit"?
I guess it kind of depends on your point of view now doesn't it...
Obviously the developers put those mobs in the dungeon so players should engage them all, shouldn't they - or since the developers also put in a couple of shortcuts allowing so players to avoid confronting a mob or two, is it just another example of some players learning from experience, how to play smarter?
Some professions and other rewards were designed to be stacked, they have no expiration date, so if a person opens them later instead of immediately is that an exploit?
If players open those bags when it isn't 2x refinement gems event that isn't an exploit - if a player opens those bags later during a 2x refinement gems event that is an exploit - or is it just players learning how to play smarter?
Let's at least be real here...
There are unarguably definite exploitable instances mistakenly programmed in the game and I have no qualms about Neverwinter taking steps to sew those instances up... but then there are also techniques players have learned that just allows them to play smarter based on their experience. Those instances as a rule do not harm the game economy, nor do they put any other player(s) at a disadvantage since those instances are available to all players regardless of character level, item level or in game wealth.
Are all instances learned over time that benefits players who puts in the time and effort to become more proficient at how they play Neverwinter to be considered "exploits"?
And when all of those programmed newly classified "exploits" are removed from the game, does everyone think people will still be interested in playing when their only alternative above a certain character level is hours of grinding, or purchasing equipment and items to remain viable in much of the new game content?
As it is becoming, about the only people who can afford to play Neverwinter are those players who have the time and opportunity to spend hours grinding content to acquire items they need or the (RW) cash to purchase those items beyond a certain level.
If Neverwinter wants the majority of people to play their character to level 70 and then just give up on the game, it's my opinion they're headed in the right direction...
However if Neverwinter wants to encourage more people to continue to play Neverwinter - even beyond reaching level 70, they are going to have to quit trying to redefine game "exploits" whenever a player discovers a method that allows them to play smarter.
I love this game and have been playing almost since beta, but over the years it seems the company has lost it's way and are now more concerned with keeping people who already have theirs and have been using actual exploits for years, rather than trying to attract new players and giving them the opportunity to discover little 'Easter eggs' that they will be able to use to evolve their characters as they gain more experience.
Just my 2¢
Players have always tried to outsmart the game/devs in all games, be they online or not.
In one game we learned how to ninja-capture a castle in an open-world non-consensual pvp zone which would give those who held the castle considerable buffs. We did it by literally getting everyone to stand in the same spot and move as one so as not to aggro the defending mobs. Right up to the point where we could kill the boss mob and capture the castle. That took some skill and co-ordination to do with 30-40 toons at a time. But man was it sweet everytime it worked.
That was then considered to be an exploit because we "weren't capturing the castle the way the developers intended".
As for your example, that's just butthurt on the part of the developers. What you were doing there is simply staying out of the defenders' aggro range, and that's no different than running along the benches in the dark hallway in Castle Never. The zombies in that area of CN have a specific aggro range, and the benches are merely outside out of it.
If you want to be able to get everything without spending either the time or money, sorry, you are going to be disappointed.
It's a business....deal with it.
I haven't also read the entire thread either so please forgive me - so if I am in game and there is a mob not fighting back why shouldn't I kill it? Sorry I am a bit lost here on how that could be considered an exploit mate
There have been quite a few ideas tossed out some better than others.
Inevitably it all boils down a couple of salient points:
1. Neverwinter can try to reduce the amount of AD's in the game by continuing to impose new and inventive ways to nerf the opportunity for players obtain astral diamonds...
2. Or they can try to offer more items and services many players would actually consider buying.
Unfortunately, to me it appears the game has decided to concentrate on the former, rather than the latter, but then of course that is their prerogative.
Now to give people the real answer as to why AD sinks are necessary:
Here's a bit from Economics 101. First of all game economies are in fact economies. People who say they aren't "real" because they don't have "real" currency is a laymen. There's nothing more "real" in "real economies." However since the way resources are produced and consumed is different in a game than in a "real economy" there are differences in how they remain healthy.
I was going to make a novel about basic economics but Extra Credits already covered most of what you need to know about sinks and it'd be more interesting than reading a wall of text at least a full post's character limit. As they say in the video, they could make an entire video series on the intricacies of MMO economics.
One thing I want to emphasize that they implied but did not explicitly state is that EVERYTHING is a currency. Both in the real world and in MMO's. Those who like to drone on about how game economies aren't "real" economies is because they have some unjustified reverence to "real" currency. They think if it is not a dollar it has no value and that is WRONG.
Modern currencies came into existence because it is complicated to translate the value of an egg into the value of milk especially if the person who has milk doesn't want eggs. Currency was invented so a person who has eggs can sell their eggs for an item with a perceived value and then use that item to buy something they want such as milk. Now obviously I am being facetious with eggs and milk but the need to translate value of items is why currency was invented.
There is nothing more intrinsically valuable about a dollar than an Astral Diamond. However in order for AD to remain valuable it needs to be removed from the economy after a period of time.
And finally I need to correct this backwards calculation. How did none of you correct this!?
There is 30M AD in the backlog. It can't tell you how much AD isn't in circulation.
What you can extrapolate is that 60K Zen would need to be added into the system to remove the backlog momentarily.
Since Zen is a 100% sink and AD is often not the Zen leaves circulation MUCH faster. If that money was spent in the GE 90% of it would be back in the ZAX while all of that Zen fizzled into some sever in the Zen Store.
People are attempting, in aggregate, at the moment, over 30M ZEN. At the 500:1 exchange rate, that is 15 BILLION AD.
30M AD is only 60K Zen.
Trust me on this. My daughter and I both have open orders to purchase 25,000 Zen each. Each of those orders cost us 12,500,000 AD.
They may oray not get filled by Black Friday even though they've been posted for 2-3 weeks.
While waiting for the orders to be filled, you cannot use the same AD to purchase anu other items, so the AD is, indeed, out of circulation.