We're unlikely to remove the private queue feature. In The Heart of Fire, we're even adding features to the queue that will encourage players to form their own parties to tackle content at a higher difficulty level.
Hi @scarabman That's a good job, I think private queues killed a part of the game but some new problems appear with this adjustment like: - one of my DPS is a GF --> Is he fragged as DPS or TANK? - my healer is a SW Templock ---> is he flagged as DPS or HEAL? - ...
This issues are already present, it's why we played mainly in private Q.
Have you find a solution to flag player by their build or it's impossible to do?
Brew.
We will add more role options in the future but it's not something that will happen for Heart of Fire.
I hope when more roles are added, this is done carefully. I've certainly seen some very impressive DPS GFs who really should be classified as DPS in the queue. I've also gotten a queue with a DPS GF who could not tank at all ... and as he was our only "tank" going into Spellplague, it was a wipe. So I can certainly see for GFs the concept of 2 roles working (Perhaps Iron Vanguard as the "Tank" and Swordmaster as the "DPS" role).
What worries me is how far to extend this to other classes ...
A Warlock with the temptation endcap can certainly put out alot of healing, but they are in no way a replacement for a Cleric or Paladin for the Advanced or Expert queues (they can HEAL ... but they fall far short as a buffer ...which is the "healer"s main job by endgame). A GWF who took the Sentinel feat path can be very tanky in some dungeons, but they haven't the survivability to queue as a "tank" in Advanced or Expert Queues. A Renegade Control Wizard can buff and even heal to some extent, but again, I wouldn't want to queue into the Expert queue and find my "Healer" was a Control Wizard.
We're unlikely to remove the private queue feature. In The Heart of Fire, we're even adding features to the queue that will encourage players to form their own parties to tackle content at a higher difficulty level.
Hi @scarabman That's a good job, I think private queues killed a part of the game but some new problems appear with this adjustment like: - one of my DPS is a GF --> Is he fragged as DPS or TANK? - my healer is a SW Templock ---> is he flagged as DPS or HEAL? - ...
This issues are already present, it's why we played mainly in private Q.
Have you find a solution to flag player by their build or it's impossible to do?
Brew.
We will add more role options in the future but it's not something that will happen for Heart of Fire.
I hope when more roles are added, this is done carefully. I've certainly seen some very impressive DPS GFs who really should be classified as DPS in the queue. I've also gotten a queue with a DPS GF who could not tank at all ... and as he was our only "tank" going into Spellplague, it was a wipe. So I can certainly see for GFs the concept of 2 roles working (Perhaps Iron Vanguard as the "Tank" and Swordmaster as the "DPS" role).
What worries me is how far to extend this to other classes ...
A Warlock with the temptation endcap can certainly put out alot of healing, but they are in no way a replacement for a Cleric or Paladin for the Advanced or Expert queues (they can HEAL ... but they fall far short as a buffer ...which is the "healer"s main job by endgame). A GWF who took the Sentinel feat path can be very tanky in some dungeons, but they haven't the survivability to queue as a "tank" in Advanced or Expert Queues. A Renegade Control Wizard can buff and even heal to some extent, but again, I wouldn't want to queue into the Expert queue and find my "Healer" was a Control Wizard.
I like where the game is going with the roles...
As for buffing, a templock that knows how to play as a templock is very close in buffing to a DO . Not sure why you think a templock cannot get the job done, they can.
As for the roles I believe the current tanks and healers should have their buffing capability brought down a bit. This would allow the devs to create a buffer role.
The roles by class would be.. Buffer: HR, TR and CW Healers: SW, DC and OP Tanks: OP, GF, and GWF DPS: GWF, GF, DC, SW, HR, TR and CW
As for the GF DPS, GF DPS is very niche and has a small window to produce said damage. I dislike how the GF damage is produce and it is done through abilities that are designed around holding threat as a tank. I personally would like the devs to ravamp the GF a bit to make it a vialbe DPS that does not need to use the Survivor wraps to produce said damage, it would greatly benefit the GF class as a DPS.
With that said all DPS classes should be similar in damage overall. There would be some content where a GWF would win out vs other class, CW would be ahead, etc... but each class by the end of a dungeon would be within 5% of each other and not the crazy BS we see today. For example, I took my CW into FBI with a buddy and I was pure DPS and by the end he had 2.5x my damage. Yes he is a SW and I'm running a CW but the difference should not been that by the end. It should be within 5% and not 250% difference. Our stats are literally identical down to the power, no way should he do so much more than me. These type of things need to go away so those who play a DPS class are competitive with each other and not reliant on a bug to produce top type damage like that is seen so often in this game.
A Warlock with the temptation endcap can certainly put out alot of healing, but they are in no way a replacement for a Cleric or Paladin for the Advanced or Expert queues (they can HEAL ... but they fall far short as a buffer ...which is the "healer"s main job by endgame). A GWF who took the Sentinel feat path can be very tanky in some dungeons, but they haven't the survivability to queue as a "tank" in Advanced or Expert Queues. A Renegade Control Wizard can buff and even heal to some extent, but again, I wouldn't want to queue into the Expert queue and find my "Healer" was a Control Wizard.
Any role changes would definitely need to be accompanied by some class rework support. If, for example, we wanted to allow SW to heal, we'd want to make sure they could support their team just as effectively as other healers. We wouldn't simply grant them the option to queue as a healer in their current state. Ditto for GWF as tanks.
One additional consideration we must make is whether any role changes fit within the current D&D paradigm. We can't make a TR be a healer, for example. There's simply no way it fits in. We work closely with Wizards to make sure we are respecting the D&D property.
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aimeesellersMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 342Arc User
As for buffing, a templock that knows how to play as a templock is very close in buffing to a DO . Not sure why you think a templock cannot get the job done, they can.
Templocks are great at healing... and yes, they can buff some. But the powersharing abilities of a DC are far above what an SW can offer as far as buffing. Not to mention... the abilities of a cleric to prevent the party from taking damage far outstrips healing. In most end game runs, you are either at full health, or dead. Healing does nothing for dead players, or players at full health.
As for the roles I believe the current tanks and healers should have their buffing capability brought down a bit. This would allow the devs to create a buffer role.
We dont need another role as a requirement to fill queues. They can be hard enough to fill as it is.
As for the GF DPS, GF DPS is very niche and has a small window to produce said damage. I dislike how the GF damage is produce and it is done through abilities that are designed around holding threat as a tank. I personally would like the devs to ravamp the GF a bit to make it a vialbe DPS that does not need to use the Survivor wraps to produce said damage, it would greatly benefit the GF class as a DPS.
DPS GF's are few and far between. Its not just a path change to get you there. You have to swap out a good bit of gear and probably have a second fully geared bonding pet set up for offense to do it... that is if you plan on tanking with your other spec at all.
The DPS a GF can generate is not designed around holding threat... I run my GF as DPS plenty, and when I do, I do not compete with the tank for agro. Its a very specific set of feats and powers that allow the GF to run as a DPS spec... and as I said before... swapping out defensive gear for offensive gear. Anyone running a GF in a DPS role that is any good at it has spent a lot of time, and a lot of AD to get there.
I dont think there is a need to make the class more viable in a DPS role. Not every class should be able to do everything. A GF is "OK" at DPS... and good as a secondary in end game content. Very rarely are they used as a primary damage dealer. In my case... I was bored, and decided to build up my GF tank into a GF damage dealer. It has taken months... and its fun and very challenging to play. If I really want to bring home the damage on a run easily... I use my CW.
With that said all DPS classes should be similar in damage overall. There would be some content where a GWF would win out vs other class, CW would be ahead, etc... but each class by the end of a dungeon would be within 5% of each other and not the crazy BS we see today. For example, I took my CW into FBI with a buddy and I was pure DPS and by the end he had 2.5x my damage. Yes he is a SW and I'm running a CW but the difference should not been that by the end. It should be within 5% and not 250% difference. Our stats are literally identical down to the power, no way should he do so much more than me. These type of things need to go away so those who play a DPS class are competitive with each other and not reliant on a bug to produce top type damage like that is seen so often in this game.
Most runs... even when I am running as DPS, I dont bother to look at the stats at the end. We beat it... thats all that matters. I dont compete with my fellow party members. When I do look... its because I am testing a build change and I am curious on how I compare. I could care less if a GWF or an SW beats me in damage. Honestly... most of the drama that occurs in this game is because someone got their panties in a knot over not coming in at the top of the chart. I wouldnt mind seeing the stats chart go away completely.
As for buffing, a templock that knows how to play as a templock is very close in buffing to a DO . Not sure why you think a templock cannot get the job done, they can.
Templocks have some nice buffs, I'll give you that. And they can put out a fair bit of healing. But there is a reason you don't see CR groups running around with Templocks as thier primary buffers. For Mod 15, a DO's capability to buff is being diminished a bit and the main buffer for those end game runs will be the AC DC. But even a DO running BtS, Terrifying Insight, Foresight or Hastening Light and Hallowed ground should easily outbuff a Templock (especially with the right feats). And that's just buffing damage ... DCs and OPs can also considerably buff a party's resistance to damage too. A templock may have some buffs and heals added in, but it's still fundamentally a DPS class. If templocks are going to queue as healers, they need more buffs (both offensive and defensive) ... likely at the cost of some of their DPS.
As for the roles I believe the current tanks and healers should have their buffing capability brought down a bit. This would allow the devs to create a buffer role.
The roles by class would be.. Buffer: HR, TR and CW Healers: SW, DC and OP Tanks: OP, GF, and GWF DPS: GWF, GF, DC, SW, HR, TR and CW
Reducing the buffing ability of tanks and healers would make those roles pretty much useless. We would be back to the "All DPS" parties of Mod 5. Also your concept of who fits into what role is .... interesting. TRs as buffers?
As for the GF DPS, GF DPS is very niche and has a small window to produce said damage. I dislike how the GF damage is produce and it is done through abilities that are designed around holding threat as a tank. I personally would like the devs to ravamp the GF a bit to make it a vialbe DPS that does not need to use the Survivor wraps to produce said damage, it would greatly benefit the GF class as a DPS.
GFs certainly don't need Survivor's Wraps to be effective DPS, I'm not sure where you came up with that one. I'd also certainly not call a GF DPS a "niche" build, they excell at is killing bosses, which is the hard part of any dungeon.
With that said all DPS classes should be similar in damage overall. There would be some content where a GWF would win out vs other class, CW would be ahead, etc... but each class by the end of a dungeon would be within 5% of each other and not the crazy BS we see today. For example, I took my CW into FBI with a buddy and I was pure DPS and by the end he had 2.5x my damage. Yes he is a SW and I'm running a CW but the difference should not been that by the end. It should be within 5% and not 250% difference. Our stats are literally identical down to the power, no way should he do so much more than me. These type of things need to go away so those who play a DPS class are competitive with each other and not reliant on a bug to produce top type damage like that is seen so often in this game.
There is no question that in Mod 14, GWF and TR are at the top end of the damage spectrum, with (combat) HRs below them and CWs and SWs below that. But if your CW is doing half or less the damage of a SW with comparable item level and stats, you are doing something VERY wrong. I have an endgame geared CW and do quite well keeping up with most other DPS classes (In fact, I will usually lead GWFs and TRs in damage up until the boss fights, at which point those classes tend to jump ahead).
That's incorrect, a Templock is no match for a DC or an OP when it comes to buffing, it's not even close.
Mod 15: do vs templock
Do: TI 1.10 * HG 1.36 * BtS 1.21= 1.81016= slightly over a 81% buff
Templock: PoP 1.18 * SB * 1.20= 1.46= 41.6% buff
Do buffs almost twice as much as templock, can have higher personal damage and it's far superior when it comes to damage mitigation for the team
@scarabman SW still is the worst damage dealer by the way, our dps path needs some love and mod 15 changes fall very short to address that (plus there hasn't been developer response whatsoever so far)
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aimeesellersMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 342Arc User
I personally would like the devs to ravamp the GF a bit to make it a vialbe DPS that does not need to use the Survivor wraps to produce said damage, it would greatly benefit the GF class as a DPS.
Any why on EARTH... would anyone be using survivors wraps... for anything??? Lose 25% of your max hp over 10 seconds when you toss a daily? Thats nuts! The +2785 power isnt even close to worth it.
Those right there.... those are one thing. Salvage.
That's incorrect, a Templock is no match for a DC or an OP when it comes to buffing, it's not even close.
Mod 15: do vs templock
Do: TI 1.10 * HG 1.36 * BtS 1.21=
1.81016= slightly over a 81% buff
Templock: PoP 1.18 * SB * 1.20= 1.46= 41.6% buff
Do buffs almost twice as much as templock, can have higher personal damage and it's far superior when it comes to damage mitigation for the team
And your analysis is forgetting the possibility of the DO using Weapons of Light to share power ... or Bear your sins and Condeming gaze for more debuffing (10% and 15% respectively). Or bonus AP from Gift of haste .. or cooldown reduction from Hastening light ...
There is simply no question; Before SWs should be able to queue as healers, their buffing needs to be dramatically reworked and increased.
Any why on EARTH... would anyone be using survivors wraps... for anything??? Lose 25% of your max hp over 10 seconds when you toss a daily? Thats nuts! The +2785 power isnt even close to worth it.
Those right there.... those are one thing. Salvage.
I sincerely hope you are joking. If you aren't, I hope your GF is tactician only.
A Warlock with the temptation endcap can certainly put out alot of healing, but they are in no way a replacement for a Cleric or Paladin for the Advanced or Expert queues (they can HEAL ... but they fall far short as a buffer ...which is the "healer"s main job by endgame). A GWF who took the Sentinel feat path can be very tanky in some dungeons, but they haven't the survivability to queue as a "tank" in Advanced or Expert Queues. A Renegade Control Wizard can buff and even heal to some extent, but again, I wouldn't want to queue into the Expert queue and find my "Healer" was a Control Wizard.
Any role changes would definitely need to be accompanied by some class rework support. If, for example, we wanted to allow SW to heal, we'd want to make sure they could support their team just as effectively as other healers. We wouldn't simply grant them the option to queue as a healer in their current state. Ditto for GWF as tanks.
One additional consideration we must make is whether any role changes fit within the current D&D paradigm. We can't make a TR be a healer, for example. There's simply no way it fits in. We work closely with Wizards to make sure we are respecting the D&D property.
If you guys would like to respect D&D paradigm, then currently (5th edition) it should look like this:
GWF (aka Barbarian) - DPS role or TANK role HR - DPS role GF (aka Fighter) - TANK role or DPS role or UTILITY TANK (battlemaster) role SW (aka Warlock) - DPS role DC - SUPPORT role (includes healing) or DPS role OP - UTILITY TANK role or DPS role TR - DPS role CW - GOD role (seriously, wizard is a god in 5e - deal with it)
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aimeesellersMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 342Arc User
Any why on EARTH... would anyone be using survivors wraps... for anything??? Lose 25% of your max hp over 10 seconds when you toss a daily? Thats nuts! The +2785 power isnt even close to worth it.
Those right there.... those are one thing. Salvage.
I sincerely hope you are joking. If you aren't, I hope your GF is tactician only.
Nope... My DPS spec is Conqueror. The power I would gain from using those would be 1700... with a loss in armor pen of 1600... as I am using terrored grips.. which also boost my encounter damage by 3% (and most of my damage comes from encounters... ) Not to mention a loss of 18K HP... and in DPS mode I do not have a constant shield up... so HP matter a bit.
Given that my bonded power is about 60K... (assuming I am not with a DC, in which case it would be much much higher)... the gain I would get from wraps is less than the overall gain I do get from the grips. Even just the math on the power gain converted to damage vs % of pure damage gained comes out in favor of the grips.
But hey... to each their own. If there is one thing that annoys me more than anything... its people assuming there is "One Build To Rule Them All.." And there isnt. If some people use those and they work for them... more power to them. They just wouldnt work for me.
Any why on EARTH... would anyone be using survivors wraps... for anything??? Lose 25% of your max hp over 10 seconds when you toss a daily? Thats nuts! The +2785 power isnt even close to worth it.
Those right there.... those are one thing. Salvage.
I sincerely hope you are joking. If you aren't, I hope your GF is tactician only.
Nope... My DPS spec is Conqueror. The power I would gain from using those would be 1700... with a loss in armor pen of 1600... as I am using terrored grips.. which also boost my encounter damage by 3% (and most of my damage comes from encounters... ) Not to mention a loss of 18K HP... and in DPS mode I do not have a constant shield up... so HP matter a bit.
Given that my bonded power is about 60K... (assuming I am not with a DC, in which case it would be much much higher)... the gain I would get from wraps is less than the overall gain I do get from the grips. Even just the math on the power gain converted to damage vs % of pure damage gained comes out in favor of the grips.
But hey... to each their own. If there is one thing that annoys me more than anything... its people assuming there is "One Build To Rule Them All.." And there isnt. If some people use those and they work for them... more power to them. They just wouldnt work for me.
Wraps aren't for the stats but for the item power (hp loss on daily power usage). You can gain max proc of capstone in a no-time. It's both funny and pathetic that this item so almost mandatory for the build.
One question, i see mani OP starting Q and at first campfire changing loadout....... this thing have sense? If people can change loadout inside dungeon there is only a little barrier at start but easy to skip..... you need to block configuration or invent something to not skip limitation in Q.
As we are on CR thread i assume you're talking about this dungeon Maybe because they tag dps and switch to Devo inside. If they tag as Devo you'll be sure to run CR out DC. In mod15 we'll be not able to tag as dps, so one part of your probelm will be solve. Let me know if you enjoy your CR pick up out DC ^^
Another thing that dawned onto me is we all were running CR without the 15% damage against undead boon at some point. It's odd that with boons and if you bother the Sun weapons this dungeon gets easier to clear, when it's people who completed it hundreds of times since launch are the ones who want it to be more challenging. It's completely backwards.
Maybe remove pillars at 2nd boss as well because mechanics.
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aimeesellersMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 342Arc User
Any why on EARTH... would anyone be using survivors wraps... for anything??? Lose 25% of your max hp over 10 seconds when you toss a daily? Thats nuts! The +2785 power isnt even close to worth it.
Those right there.... those are one thing. Salvage.
I sincerely hope you are joking. If you aren't, I hope your GF is tactician only.
Nope... My DPS spec is Conqueror. The power I would gain from using those would be 1700... with a loss in armor pen of 1600... as I am using terrored grips.. which also boost my encounter damage by 3% (and most of my damage comes from encounters... ) Not to mention a loss of 18K HP... and in DPS mode I do not have a constant shield up... so HP matter a bit.
Given that my bonded power is about 60K... (assuming I am not with a DC, in which case it would be much much higher)... the gain I would get from wraps is less than the overall gain I do get from the grips. Even just the math on the power gain converted to damage vs % of pure damage gained comes out in favor of the grips.
But hey... to each their own. If there is one thing that annoys me more than anything... its people assuming there is "One Build To Rule Them All.." And there isnt. If some people use those and they work for them... more power to them. They just wouldnt work for me.
Wraps aren't for the stats but for the item power (hp loss on daily power usage). You can gain max proc of capstone in a no-time. It's both funny and pathetic that this item so almost mandatory for the build.
Ok... now it makes sense. If you are saying that the damage taken from the wraps when you activate a daily, procs the tactician endcap... which causes massive AP gain... is what is happening here, then yes... that is STUPID and very very very BROKEN. I am sure that the damage from the wraps (which is not trigged by an outside source, but by the player themselves) was not meant to interact with that endcap feat in that way. My tank spec is a tactician, and I know that it only takes one or two hits and my AP is full... so this would seem to indicate that the GF using wraps can activate a daily, then every damage tick or two causes their AP to fill... activate another daily... which fills their AP... rinse repeat.... indefinitely. That's INSANE.
Thats BROKEN. And it needs to be fixed... and people using it, (through no fault of their own because thats how its working) are exploiting a bug. My DPS GF is not set up that way... nor will she ever be. I do high damage using the proper path for DPS, and using the feats and powers designed to do so. Not relying on a piece of BROKEN gear to game the system.
I can now understand why people are complaining about "how the DPS GF does so much damage" if this is what others are doing. When I heard complaints before... I was confused... because everything I am doing is legit. Now I get it.
If the devs have been unaware of this up to this point.... they know about it now. And it needs to be FIXED. @scarabman you need to look into this and fix it please.
Ok... now it makes sense. If you are saying that the damage taken from the wraps when you activate a daily, procs the tactician endcap... which causes massive AP gain... is what is happening here, then yes... that is STUPID and very very very BROKEN. I am sure that the damage from the wraps (which is not trigged by an outside source, but by the player themselves) was not meant to interact with that endcap feat in that way.
oh no, that spicy 0.625% of total Action Points restored per tick of Survivor's Wraps is so broken clearly, endgame runs are won and lost by this cleansable source of violation of common sense
My tank spec is a tactician, and I know that it only takes one or two hits and my AP is full... so this would seem to indicate that the GF using wraps can activate a daily, then every damage tick or two causes their AP to fill... activate another daily... which fills their AP... rinse repeat.... indefinitely. That's INSANE.
oh noes, ap gain from guard is so broken
make bosses deal less damage so GFs don't get instant daily recharge from doing the Smart Thing™ and using their shield to defend against attacks
Thats BROKEN. And it needs to be fixed... and people using it, (through no fault of their own because thats how its working) are exploiting a bug. My DPS GF is not set up that way... nor will she ever be. I do high damage using the proper path for DPS, and using the feats and powers designed to do so. Not relying on a piece of BROKEN gear to game the system.
It took you this long to figure out that's why every competent DPS GF runs the Wraps?
And, besides, DPS GF was a thing before the Wraps came into the picture. Things like the 25 GF Tiamat, or some of the og Mod10 FBI speedruns proved that DPS GF didn't need the Wraps to deal a ton of damage.
I can now understand why people are complaining about "how the DPS GF does so much damage" if this is what others are doing. When I heard complaints before... I was confused... because everything I am doing is legit. Now I get it.
You are overthinking how GF is a top tier single target burst DPSer.
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aimeesellersMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 342Arc User
It took you this long to figure out that's why every competent DPS GF runs the Wraps?
And, besides, DPS GF was a thing before the Wraps came into the picture. Things like the 25 GF Tiamat, or some of the og Mod10 FBI speedruns proved that DPS GF didn't need the Wraps to deal a ton of damage.
I had a long, though out reply to this planned... but I think this works better
make bosses deal less damage so GFs don't get instant daily recharge from doing the Smart Thing™ and using their shield to defend against attacks
And, besides, DPS GF was a thing before the Wraps came into the picture. Things like the 25 GF Tiamat, or some of the og Mod10 FBI speedruns proved that DPS GF didn't need the Wraps to deal a ton of damage.
The devs could just reduce the AP regen of the GF capstone a bit but that is one of the better buffs that the GF Tac has for the group. Though maybe just lower the AP regen just for the GF a bit.
You are right that GF don't need the wraps to do a ton of damage they just need to get hit so that SWW can proc so that the GF can do their heavy damage. I rather see the GF DPS not require a hit to produce said damage. That would be the better way to play as a DPS; otherwise if you are next to another DPS and have SWW and use KC you can have the boss turn around and kill your group. The other thought is have the GF near the tank and so many times I have seen the GF DPS go down rather quickly because they lack any type of defense and the end result is they cannot take a hit.
The GF should be allowed to play as a normal DPS not requiring them to be hit to produce said damage. The GF should be able to produce their damage similar to how a GWF works. IMO, the GF and GWF should be combined into one class and when you go one paragon path you get the big sword and the other you get the sword and shield.
What would be nice the dropping of the name that no longer plays into classes as of 5e. Instead of CW it would be just a Wizard, HR is just a Ranger, etc... so GWF and GF would be called a Fighter with the role option being determined by the paragon path picked.
It took you this long to figure out that's why every competent DPS GF runs the Wraps?
And, besides, DPS GF was a thing before the Wraps came into the picture. Things like the 25 GF Tiamat, or some of the og Mod10 FBI speedruns proved that DPS GF didn't need the Wraps to deal a ton of damage.
I had a long, though out reply to this planned... but I think this works better
omegaLUL
so an item that just helps them more quickly proc something that procs quickly anyways is more broken than rings that give you 2.5% DPS, Artifact that gives you 50% more DPS, insignia bonuses that give you like 25-30k recovery... yeah, survivors wraps totally broken.
Templocks are great at healing... and yes, they can buff some. But the powersharing abilities of a DC are far above what an SW can offer as far as buffing. Not to mention... the abilities of a cleric to prevent the party from taking damage far outstrips healing. In most end game runs, you are either at full health, or dead. Healing does nothing for dead players, or players at full health.
Powersharing is inferior to a damage % increase. Looking at DC and just DC in the game current state the DO is superior to the AC as powersharing has diminishing returns vs. a straight up damage buff. The Templock in its current state is close to the same buffing capability of a DO, that is not inferior in any way shape or form.
We dont need another role as a requirement to fill queues. They can be hard enough to fill as it is.
The issue with filling Qs in the current state is due the game population mainly being DPS and not support classes/roles. Adding an additional support role would remove some of the DPS trying to Q into content and adding roles like Tank and healer to other classes would allow more players to Q as support opening up the door for faster Qs.
DPS GF's are few and far between. Its not just a path change to get you there. You have to swap out a good bit of gear and probably have a second fully geared bonding pet set up for offense to do it... that is if you plan on tanking with your other spec at all.
The DPS a GF can generate is not designed around holding threat... I run my GF as DPS plenty, and when I do, I do not compete with the tank for agro. Its a very specific set of feats and powers that allow the GF to run as a DPS spec... and as I said before... swapping out defensive gear for offensive gear. Anyone running a GF in a DPS role that is any good at it has spent a lot of time, and a lot of AD to get there.
I dont think there is a need to make the class more viable in a DPS role. Not every class should be able to do everything. A GF is "OK" at DPS... and good as a secondary in end game content. Very rarely are they used as a primary damage dealer. In my case... I was bored, and decided to build up my GF tank into a GF damage dealer. It has taken months... and its fun and very challenging to play. If I really want to bring home the damage on a run easily... I use my CW.
I rarely see a GF buffer or tank any more. Almost all GF now are DPS or trying to be a DPS. I run a GF and I can run full DPS and tank with the same gear. The only thing I have to do is swap out gear on my companion going from offensive to defensive. The other big change is going from the HP boon to the defense boon. Doing these two simple things I go from around 15-18K defense to having more than enough to tank CR.
The GF DPS has very narrow window to produce there high end damage and when done right you can 3 shot Orcus, Withers and Rasi. You can melt down any boss but there is that small window where it can be done when all buffs and debuff up for the GF to be super effective. When this happens my CW, almost 18K, cannot compete damage wise vs my GF when that window is up and I get everything to hit just right. Without that the GF damage is gimp to even my CW which is the worst DPS in the game ATM.
The devs have to ensure that any class that is a DPS, this includes current class that are not DPS that will be classified as a DPS later in the game can produce similar damage. By not adjusting damage so that classes are similar will result in some form of meta group where a majority of the DPS builds are ignored.
The other end of the spectrum is design of the support roles and ensuring that they all can do the job and be close to each if they offer buffing. Again it is about ensuring group composition does not result in a specific meta being formed leaving out half of the classes in the game.
It took you this long to figure out that's why every competent DPS GF runs the Wraps?
And, besides, DPS GF was a thing before the Wraps came into the picture. Things like the 25 GF Tiamat, or some of the og Mod10 FBI speedruns proved that DPS GF didn't need the Wraps to deal a ton of damage.
I had a long, though out reply to this planned... but I think this works better
omegaLUL
so an item that just helps them more quickly proc something that procs quickly anyways is more broken than rings that give you 2.5% DPS, Artifact that gives you 50% more DPS, insignia bonuses that give you like 25-30k recovery... yeah, survivors wraps totally broken.
gj bud.
As a DC I run cleanse just to upset my GF buddies that use the survivor wraps. I have a no cleanse build but I purposely run my cleanse build to teach them a lesson. Stop trying to produce damage using a stupid gimmicks Show me what you truly can do without said gimmick. When this happens the GF becomes, squishy and dies a lot as they actually have to have the boss hit them to process SWW and many cannot take enough hits to get the bonus damage of SWW.
When I do run my no cleanse build the GF damage goes through the roof and bam we end up with speed runs. Like I have been stating for a while the GF is niche DPS and the devs need to tweak how GF produce said damage so they can be more effective outside of using the survivor wraps and other gimmicks. Same can be said of the TR, GWF, and SW as well. To many players relying on bugs or gimmicks to produce top end damage.
2
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
A Warlock with the temptation endcap can certainly put out alot of healing, but they are in no way a replacement for a Cleric or Paladin for the Advanced or Expert queues (they can HEAL ... but they fall far short as a buffer ...which is the "healer"s main job by endgame). A GWF who took the Sentinel feat path can be very tanky in some dungeons, but they haven't the survivability to queue as a "tank" in Advanced or Expert Queues. A Renegade Control Wizard can buff and even heal to some extent, but again, I wouldn't want to queue into the Expert queue and find my "Healer" was a Control Wizard.
Any role changes would definitely need to be accompanied by some class rework support. If, for example, we wanted to allow SW to heal, we'd want to make sure they could support their team just as effectively as other healers. We wouldn't simply grant them the option to queue as a healer in their current state. Ditto for GWF as tanks.
One additional consideration we must make is whether any role changes fit within the current D&D paradigm. We can't make a TR be a healer, for example. There's simply no way it fits in. We work closely with Wizards to make sure we are respecting the D&D property.
You brought as example sw and you are wrong. A sw healing ability is more consistent than the dc who queue as healer. A sw heal you before a dc touch a healing spell...Sw can buff-debuff and heal at the same time while a dc need to have the faithfull tree or the virtuous tree and still cant reach sw.
A Warlock with the temptation endcap can certainly put out alot of healing, but they are in no way a replacement for a Cleric or Paladin for the Advanced or Expert queues (they can HEAL ... but they fall far short as a buffer ...which is the "healer"s main job by endgame). A GWF who took the Sentinel feat path can be very tanky in some dungeons, but they haven't the survivability to queue as a "tank" in Advanced or Expert Queues. A Renegade Control Wizard can buff and even heal to some extent, but again, I wouldn't want to queue into the Expert queue and find my "Healer" was a Control Wizard.
Any role changes would definitely need to be accompanied by some class rework support. If, for example, we wanted to allow SW to heal, we'd want to make sure they could support their team just as effectively as other healers. We wouldn't simply grant them the option to queue as a healer in their current state. Ditto for GWF as tanks.
One additional consideration we must make is whether any role changes fit within the current D&D paradigm. We can't make a TR be a healer, for example. There's simply no way it fits in. We work closely with Wizards to make sure we are respecting the D&D property.
You brought as example sw and you are wrong. A sw healing ability is more consistent than the dc who queue as healer. A sw heal you before a dc touch a healing spell...Sw can buff-debuff and heal at the same time while a dc need to have the faithfull tree or the virtuous tree and still cant reach sw.
Let me disagree, a sw doesn't heal anything at all if he doesn't hit a target. This means the healing is not consistent (and anyway, there are no so-called healing spells in SW). And as for the buffs-debuffs, they are clearly inferior to the righteous feats a DC has. Meanwhile, a DC can heal in and out of combat (because of the healing spells), and a DC can buff-debuff at the same time he heals (because of dot-continuous buff-healing powers like astral seal or divine glow).
One of the best example is Nostura:if a guy in your team has the curse during the time Nostura is immune, only the DC will be able to save him.
A Warlock with the temptation endcap can certainly put out alot of healing, but they are in no way a replacement for a Cleric or Paladin for the Advanced or Expert queues (they can HEAL ... but they fall far short as a buffer ...which is the "healer"s main job by endgame). A GWF who took the Sentinel feat path can be very tanky in some dungeons, but they haven't the survivability to queue as a "tank" in Advanced or Expert Queues. A Renegade Control Wizard can buff and even heal to some extent, but again, I wouldn't want to queue into the Expert queue and find my "Healer" was a Control Wizard.
Any role changes would definitely need to be accompanied by some class rework support. If, for example, we wanted to allow SW to heal, we'd want to make sure they could support their team just as effectively as other healers. We wouldn't simply grant them the option to queue as a healer in their current state. Ditto for GWF as tanks.
One additional consideration we must make is whether any role changes fit within the current D&D paradigm. We can't make a TR be a healer, for example. There's simply no way it fits in. We work closely with Wizards to make sure we are respecting the D&D property.
You brought as example sw and you are wrong. A sw healing ability is more consistent than the dc who queue as healer. A sw heal you before a dc touch a healing spell...Sw can buff-debuff and heal at the same time while a dc need to have the faithfull tree or the virtuous tree and still cant reach sw.
Let me disagree, a sw doesn't heal anything at all if he doesn't hit a target. This means the healing is not consistent (and anyway, there are no so-called healing spells in SW). And as for the buffs-debuffs, they are clearly inferior to the righteous feats a DC has. Meanwhile, a DC can heal in and out of combat (because of the healing spells), and a DC can buff-debuff at the same time he heals (because of dot-continuous buff-healing powers like astral seal or divine glow).
One of the best example is Nostura:if a guy in your team has the curse during the time Nostura is immune, only the DC will be able to save him.
This is where the devs would have to make adjustments to the SW Templock. I would imagine one of the paragon paths would be adjusted so that the SW would get a straight up healing/buffing encounter instead of what is currently in the game. This would help the SW with healing and buffing. Also, changes to the SW personals would help increase the SW ability to be a healer without needing to be a templock. This way a SW could play as a hybrid DPS/healer if they wanted to, similar to the templock.
With all of the changes coming in Mod15 my bet the new meta will be...
GF DPS but as a tank, OP Devo, AC DC, DO DC as a DPS and a Templock. This group due to its high buffing capabilities should be able to melt stuff really fast.
At this point we are speculating what will be in the game come mod 16. The only thing I know is that the dev said they are working to add more roles. Does this mean they will add more roles to classes, will the devs add a new Q role, or will it be both?
I guess we will have to wait and see. As for mod 15, I think what is on test is what we will get live. Meaning quite a few changes coming and nothing we can really do about it other than accept them and play with them until further changes come mod 16.
We're unlikely to remove the private queue feature. In The Heart of Fire, we're even adding features to the queue that will encourage players to form their own parties to tackle content at a higher difficulty level.
Constant 1 shots from enemies or a party wipe does not make a game harder. It makes it completely obnoxious.
You Dev's really need to look back at the start of the game, when Dungeon runs actually took some time and you all have to work together etc.
Back when it was actually fun to run things... Not just a constant 1 shot spam fest.
For me people do too much damage... Enemies do too much damage... All non-healing classes can heal way too much... Dungeons etc feel too sped up to actually learn the mechanics properly etc. Lately its all Kill this as fast as possible, do this as fast as possible, run this as fast as possible etc etc etc or its a wipe and have to start again or completely quit... which then leads to not being able to queue anything at all!
People should lose health to enemies and have time to be healed etc by a DC or Pally. If my health goes down from 230k in an end-game dungeon its either next to 0 damage or its all gone in 1 shot.
I said it at the start of this post and I will say it again.... 1 shot deaths and party wipes do not make a game hard, it makes it completely annoying to play and not worth the effort half the time.
Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only Alts : Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
For me people do too much damage... Enemies do too much damage... All non-healing classes can heal way too much... Dungeons etc feel too sped up to actually learn the mechanics properly etc. Lately its all Kill this as fast as possible, do this as fast as possible, run this as fast as possible etc etc etc or its a wipe and have to start again or completely quit... which then leads to not being able to queue anything at all!
People should lose health to enemies and have time to be healed etc by a DC or Pally. If my health goes down from 230k in an end-game dungeon its either next to 0 damage or its all gone in 1 shot.
I said it at the start of this post and I will say it again.... 1 shot deaths and party wipes do not make a game hard, it makes it completely annoying to play and not worth the effort half the time.
The average player at endgame simply has far too much healing available, mostly through lifesteal. On one hand, you need this to solo your way through places like Chult and Barovia. But in a dungeon you really should have some reason to bring a healer instead of just the buffs.
Of course, an easy solution to this is to just disable Life Steal in queued content. But watch the player base scream bloody murder when the devs do something like that ...
Comments
I hope when more roles are added, this is done carefully. I've certainly seen some very impressive DPS GFs who really should be classified as DPS in the queue. I've also gotten a queue with a DPS GF who could not tank at all ... and as he was our only "tank" going into Spellplague, it was a wipe. So I can certainly see for GFs the concept of 2 roles working (Perhaps Iron Vanguard as the "Tank" and Swordmaster as the "DPS" role).
What worries me is how far to extend this to other classes ...
A Warlock with the temptation endcap can certainly put out alot of healing, but they are in no way a replacement for a Cleric or Paladin for the Advanced or Expert queues (they can HEAL ... but they fall far short as a buffer ...which is the "healer"s main job by endgame). A GWF who took the Sentinel feat path can be very tanky in some dungeons, but they haven't the survivability to queue as a "tank" in Advanced or Expert Queues. A Renegade Control Wizard can buff and even heal to some extent, but again, I wouldn't want to queue into the Expert queue and find my "Healer" was a Control Wizard.
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
As for buffing, a templock that knows how to play as a templock is very close in buffing to a DO . Not sure why you think a templock cannot get the job done, they can.
As for the roles I believe the current tanks and healers should have their buffing capability brought down a bit. This would allow the devs to create a buffer role.
The roles by class would be..
Buffer: HR, TR and CW
Healers: SW, DC and OP
Tanks: OP, GF, and GWF
DPS: GWF, GF, DC, SW, HR, TR and CW
As for the GF DPS, GF DPS is very niche and has a small window to produce said damage. I dislike how the GF damage is produce and it is done through abilities that are designed around holding threat as a tank. I personally would like the devs to ravamp the GF a bit to make it a vialbe DPS that does not need to use the Survivor wraps to produce said damage, it would greatly benefit the GF class as a DPS.
With that said all DPS classes should be similar in damage overall. There would be some content where a GWF would win out vs other class, CW would be ahead, etc... but each class by the end of a dungeon would be within 5% of each other and not the crazy BS we see today. For example, I took my CW into FBI with a buddy and I was pure DPS and by the end he had 2.5x my damage. Yes he is a SW and I'm running a CW but the difference should not been that by the end. It should be within 5% and not 250% difference. Our stats are literally identical down to the power, no way should he do so much more than me. These type of things need to go away so those who play a DPS class are competitive with each other and not reliant on a bug to produce top type damage like that is seen so often in this game.
One additional consideration we must make is whether any role changes fit within the current D&D paradigm. We can't make a TR be a healer, for example. There's simply no way it fits in. We work closely with Wizards to make sure we are respecting the D&D property.
Templocks are great at healing... and yes, they can buff some. But the powersharing abilities of a DC are far above what an SW can offer as far as buffing. Not to mention... the abilities of a cleric to prevent the party from taking damage far outstrips healing. In most end game runs, you are either at full health, or dead. Healing does nothing for dead players, or players at full health. We dont need another role as a requirement to fill queues. They can be hard enough to fill as it is.
DPS GF's are few and far between. Its not just a path change to get you there. You have to swap out a good bit of gear and probably have a second fully geared bonding pet set up for offense to do it... that is if you plan on tanking with your other spec at all.
The DPS a GF can generate is not designed around holding threat... I run my GF as DPS plenty, and when I do, I do not compete with the tank for agro. Its a very specific set of feats and powers that allow the GF to run as a DPS spec... and as I said before... swapping out defensive gear for offensive gear. Anyone running a GF in a DPS role that is any good at it has spent a lot of time, and a lot of AD to get there.
I dont think there is a need to make the class more viable in a DPS role. Not every class should be able to do everything. A GF is "OK" at DPS... and good as a secondary in end game content. Very rarely are they used as a primary damage dealer. In my case... I was bored, and decided to build up my GF tank into a GF damage dealer. It has taken months... and its fun and very challenging to play. If I really want to bring home the damage on a run easily... I use my CW.
Most runs... even when I am running as DPS, I dont bother to look at the stats at the end. We beat it... thats all that matters. I dont compete with my fellow party members. When I do look... its because I am testing a build change and I am curious on how I compare. I could care less if a GWF or an SW beats me in damage. Honestly... most of the drama that occurs in this game is because someone got their panties in a knot over not coming in at the top of the chart. I wouldnt mind seeing the stats chart go away completely.
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
That's incorrect, a Templock is no match for a DC or an OP when it comes to buffing, it's not even close.
Mod 15: do vs templock
Do: TI 1.10 * HG 1.36 * BtS 1.21=
1.81016= slightly over a 81% buff
Templock: PoP 1.18 * SB * 1.20= 1.46= 41.6% buff
Do buffs almost twice as much as templock, can have higher personal damage and it's far superior when it comes to damage mitigation for the team
@scarabman SW still is the worst damage dealer by the way, our dps path needs some love and mod 15 changes fall very short to address that (plus there hasn't been developer response whatsoever so far)
Those right there.... those are one thing. Salvage.
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
There is simply no question; Before SWs should be able to queue as healers, their buffing needs to be dramatically reworked and increased.
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
GWF (aka Barbarian) - DPS role or TANK role
HR - DPS role
GF (aka Fighter) - TANK role or DPS role or UTILITY TANK (battlemaster) role
SW (aka Warlock) - DPS role
DC - SUPPORT role (includes healing) or DPS role
OP - UTILITY TANK role or DPS role
TR - DPS role
CW - GOD role (seriously, wizard is a god in 5e - deal with it)
Given that my bonded power is about 60K... (assuming I am not with a DC, in which case it would be much much higher)... the gain I would get from wraps is less than the overall gain I do get from the grips. Even just the math on the power gain converted to damage vs % of pure damage gained comes out in favor of the grips.
But hey... to each their own. If there is one thing that annoys me more than anything... its people assuming there is "One Build To Rule Them All.." And there isnt. If some people use those and they work for them... more power to them. They just wouldnt work for me.
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
Wraps aren't for the stats but for the item power (hp loss on daily power usage). You can gain max proc of capstone in a no-time. It's both funny and pathetic that this item so almost mandatory for the build.
Maybe because they tag dps and switch to Devo inside. If they tag as Devo you'll be sure to run CR out DC.
In mod15 we'll be not able to tag as dps, so one part of your probelm will be solve.
Let me know if you enjoy your CR pick up out DC ^^
Maybe remove pillars at 2nd boss as well because mechanics.
Thats BROKEN. And it needs to be fixed... and people using it, (through no fault of their own because thats how its working) are exploiting a bug. My DPS GF is not set up that way... nor will she ever be. I do high damage using the proper path for DPS, and using the feats and powers designed to do so. Not relying on a piece of BROKEN gear to game the system.
I can now understand why people are complaining about "how the DPS GF does so much damage" if this is what others are doing. When I heard complaints before... I was confused... because everything I am doing is legit. Now I get it.
If the devs have been unaware of this up to this point.... they know about it now. And it needs to be FIXED. @scarabman you need to look into this and fix it please.
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
clearly, endgame runs are won and lost by this cleansable source of violation of common sense oh noes, ap gain from guard is so broken
make bosses deal less damage so GFs don't get instant daily recharge from doing the Smart Thing™ and using their shield to defend against attacks It took you this long to figure out that's why every competent DPS GF runs the Wraps?
And, besides, DPS GF was a thing before the Wraps came into the picture.
Things like the 25 GF Tiamat, or some of the og Mod10 FBI speedruns proved that DPS GF didn't need the Wraps to deal a ton of damage. You are overthinking how GF is a top tier single target burst DPSer.
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
You are right that GF don't need the wraps to do a ton of damage they just need to get hit so that SWW can proc so that the GF can do their heavy damage. I rather see the GF DPS not require a hit to produce said damage. That would be the better way to play as a DPS; otherwise if you are next to another DPS and have SWW and use KC you can have the boss turn around and kill your group. The other thought is have the GF near the tank and so many times I have seen the GF DPS go down rather quickly because they lack any type of defense and the end result is they cannot take a hit.
The GF should be allowed to play as a normal DPS not requiring them to be hit to produce said damage. The GF should be able to produce their damage similar to how a GWF works. IMO, the GF and GWF should be combined into one class and when you go one paragon path you get the big sword and the other you get the sword and shield.
What would be nice the dropping of the name that no longer plays into classes as of 5e. Instead of CW it would be just a Wizard, HR is just a Ranger, etc... so GWF and GF would be called a Fighter with the role option being determined by the paragon path picked.
so an item that just helps them more quickly proc something that procs quickly anyways is more broken than rings that give you 2.5% DPS, Artifact that gives you 50% more DPS, insignia bonuses that give you like 25-30k recovery... yeah, survivors wraps totally broken.
gj bud.
The GF DPS has very narrow window to produce there high end damage and when done right you can 3 shot Orcus, Withers and Rasi. You can melt down any boss but there is that small window where it can be done when all buffs and debuff up for the GF to be super effective. When this happens my CW, almost 18K, cannot compete damage wise vs my GF when that window is up and I get everything to hit just right. Without that the GF damage is gimp to even my CW which is the worst DPS in the game ATM.
The devs have to ensure that any class that is a DPS, this includes current class that are not DPS that will be classified as a DPS later in the game can produce similar damage. By not adjusting damage so that classes are similar will result in some form of meta group where a majority of the DPS builds are ignored.
The other end of the spectrum is design of the support roles and ensuring that they all can do the job and be close to each if they offer buffing. Again it is about ensuring group composition does not result in a specific meta being formed leaving out half of the classes in the game.
When I do run my no cleanse build the GF damage goes through the roof and bam we end up with speed runs. Like I have been stating for a while the GF is niche DPS and the devs need to tweak how GF produce said damage so they can be more effective outside of using the survivor wraps and other gimmicks. Same can be said of the TR, GWF, and SW as well. To many players relying on bugs or gimmicks to produce top end damage.
Meanwhile, a DC can heal in and out of combat (because of the healing spells), and a DC can buff-debuff at the same time he heals (because of dot-continuous buff-healing powers like astral seal or divine glow).
One of the best example is Nostura:if a guy in your team has the curse during the time Nostura is immune, only the DC will be able to save him.
With all of the changes coming in Mod15 my bet the new meta will be...
GF DPS but as a tank, OP Devo, AC DC, DO DC as a DPS and a Templock. This group due to its high buffing capabilities should be able to melt stuff really fast.
At this point we are speculating what will be in the game come mod 16. The only thing I know is that the dev said they are working to add more roles. Does this mean they will add more roles to classes, will the devs add a new Q role, or will it be both?
I guess we will have to wait and see. As for mod 15, I think what is on test is what we will get live. Meaning quite a few changes coming and nothing we can really do about it other than accept them and play with them until further changes come mod 16.
You Dev's really need to look back at the start of the game, when Dungeon runs actually took some time and you all have to work together etc.
Back when it was actually fun to run things... Not just a constant 1 shot spam fest.
For me people do too much damage... Enemies do too much damage... All non-healing classes can heal way too much... Dungeons etc feel too sped up to actually learn the mechanics properly etc. Lately its all Kill this as fast as possible, do this as fast as possible, run this as fast as possible etc etc etc or its a wipe and have to start again or completely quit... which then leads to not being able to queue anything at all!
People should lose health to enemies and have time to be healed etc by a DC or Pally. If my health goes down from 230k in an end-game dungeon its either next to 0 damage or its all gone in 1 shot.
I said it at the start of this post and I will say it again.... 1 shot deaths and party wipes do not make a game hard, it makes it completely annoying to play and not worth the effort half the time.
Alts :
Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
Member of Q-Snipe
Of course, an easy solution to this is to just disable Life Steal in queued content. But watch the player base scream bloody murder when the devs do something like that ...
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader