Hey everyone..I dont post much, but i do read the forums often. I would like to propose a potential solution, although i dont know how hard it would be to put into place.
Firstly. Dungeons := Why could they not have a tier system for each dungeon. The entry level for CR is 13k.However we all know that a 13k gruop is NOT going to clear it. So why not, for example, make current CR 16k and above, whilst providing a slightly easier one for 13 to 15.999k players. This will make the non BIS crowd happy.
Secondly. Seals := You have to run the dungeons to get seals to get gear. This system is very slow..31 succesful runs of CR in order to get all the gear for 1 toon. Again why not have the gear in the end chest. At least then there may be a point to running the dungeon.
As for the points raised in many of the posts above, I would love to help my guildies run some of the better content, but find it hard to explain to them that they are potentially not geared enough for that content, even though they have the required item level. Or infact that they have chosen the wrong class to main. I had 3 guildies leave the game totally last week because they became stuck with running the same dungeons over and over again for little or no reward.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I never encountered so much elitism as under this thread. I really feel sorry for you guys as you are figthing to keep your virtual muscles to be the biggest in the game and to keep everyone out of your backyard.
Glad I had my eyes opened. I thought endgame players in this game are the ones who should help others, I thought this community is cool. Well, now I see it's not. I guess making some game materials doesn't mean you are a better human being, but there are people here who consider themselves superior.
Happy life to all of you. I'll just stick with "plebe" in my guild, who are not worthy of the content which should be exclusive for few people in this game. I'll try to drag their HAMSTER through dungeons, even though we will propably fail. But hey - they are a decent human beings and not total jerks.
Have fun and keep your dungeons to yourself. Us, the unworthy players, we will shut up and go do some campaigns as you commanded to us.
No more response from me. Peace out.
I was avoiding responding to this but you know what, I will humor you:
I never encountered so much elitism as under this thread. I really feel sorry for you guys as you are fighting to ruin the game for others purely out of self interest with no consideration for players who like content other then what you want.
Glad I had my eyes opened. I thought midgame players in this game are the ones who should be the happiest with the state of the game right now as they still have content to run, I thought this community is cool. Well, now I see it's not. I personally feel like not being able to complete all the content doesn't mean you are a better human being, but there are people here who consider themselves superior for that reason.
Happy life to all of you. I'll just stick with my friends, who do not deserve to have any content designed that challenges and engages us since it all must be for you. I'll try to drag myself through boring content with them, even though we have no interest in running any of it and only play because we enjoy running stuff together. But hey, at least they are a decent human beings and not total jerks.
Have fun and keep your dungeons to yourself. Us, the unworthy players, we will shut up and go do dungeons which are as easy as campaigns as you commanded to us.
No more response from me. Peace out.
See, I can do that too. Now try making an argument that appeals to facts and reasoning instead of emotions, because trying to be emotionally manipulative in an argument is a poor argument to begin with, especially in this case where the same argument can be made from both sides.
I don't go around saying, "PVP should be removed from the game" despite the fact that I never play it. Nor do I go around saying, "The foundry should be removed from the game." If either of those areas receive some development time, good for them, it caters towards those parts of the community, even if it is not for me. So, stop trying to make all the content in the game casual, just because it suits your personal agenda.
If everyone had your mindset where they expected to be carried then nobody would ever complete anything because nobody would work to learn the content. Let that sink in for a moment.
Sometimes Fab, its not about argument. Its about solving the problem. People post this kind of topic up here to find answer to their problem and not to argue with anyone. U might be good at theorycrafting and math but when it comes to socializing and problem solving, u have much to learn from @jase2cool. A problem can be a real pain to solve when people aren't here to solve it but to argue. Just saying.
So you plan to solve your personal problem at the expense of other people's enjoyment? That is the reason there is argument, the existence of resistance in the first place. The fact of the matter is, a forum is a place meant for the exchanging of ideas and sometimes, people will have differing opinions on the same topic. You want to solve your problem without any disagreement? Fine, do it in a way that does not create problems for others and then you won't see argument.
I never claimed I was good at social interactions, in fact, I will openly admit I am bad at them, but you are deluding yourself if you think I am bad at problem solving. Just because I do not agree with the solution (or even the problem for that matter) you propose. How do you think the optimal way to do stuff gets found?
Problem = find most efficient way to run content. Solution = do this.
This is what I do. That is not what you are doing. What you are doing is inventing a new problem to solve your own, which is not the right way to go. You presented your perspective, it clashes with mine. Now, stop trying to force the same "solution" to the problem when it is clearly flawed and is the root cause of disagreement.
And no, tiered content won't work out well, as already pointed out, but I will summarize again why: 1) It takes up a lot of development time to do correctly, since some mechanics do not scale up/down well. There are 2 types of difficulty, artificial difficulty and designed difficulty. Artificial being when the content is hard because you just raised or lowered some numbers and designed is hard because the content was implicitly made with mechanics that challenge the player. In general, the first is not fun or engaging and the second is fun and engaging. There is no way to scale down the second type to players who want easier content, it is, by its nature implicitly difficult and the first type is unsatisfying. That leaves the only recourse as designing different content for different players. 2) Players will always run the content with the best AD per hour ratio. If the easier version gives better rewards then the harder version, guess what gets cut out. This happens in pretty much every game I have played with tiered content as well.
How about instead of asking that all content be made available to you (which obviously comes at the expense of someone else's enjoyment) you ask for something specific to be developed towards your particular tastes. Nothing is stopping you from doing so, but asking for everything to be for you is obviously going to be met with resistance because it is taking something away from someone else in the process.
The are a lot of themes touched in this thread: Party composition,game difficulty,player mentality ,gaming behaviour definition.
One affects the other and all together each one and all at the same time. I play the game since the start,joining novemeber 2013.I do not think the game was in worse state and even more alarming is the fact that fellow veteran players think the game is going ok.
Party composition and meta: People like one of my old guildies , tend to use as an argument that was a time that 5 cw parties were the meta.Yet forgets to say that you COULD DO ENDGAME CONTENT WITH EVERY OTHER CLASS back then. You can not do CR in gaming realistically time with out a DC and an OP.That is the difference right now.Two classes are absolute must to FINISH THE DAMN content .This was not the case in the past. So as concerning party composition game is way worse than mod2.
Game difficulty: game difficulty is directly affected by the presense of the two classes DC and OP.You have 2 DCs at 15+ K and one OP?One way or another you will finish CR. You have one GF,one Dev OP and 3 DPS and you want to do CR in same time as the previous combo?GL DC and OP provide a great number of buffs and at the same time provide the best mitigation while they are-if properly played-immortal. This was not the case in the past.
Player mentality/gaming behaviour: This is rather really simple to explain:the guys that play DC and OP protect the curent system and find it "balanced".or to better add,and the guys that have in their FL a lot of the above category players. It is simple human behaviour:they have a great time now,they finish the content first of all,get the new toys and with less time make the most AD.As simple as that.Why to lose that ,cause kangkeok or Wizzard or Pterias want things to be balanced? They want their cookies easy time.
-------- What needs to be done? Revert the Do changes,cap aura of courage,cap OP temp hp,balance the OP pets (razorwood etc) ,remove buff stacking from pets. That would be a nice start and we would go back to one DC per party,or at least trhe difference would not be so great between the parties with two DCs vs parties with one DC. OP buffing and survivability needs to be toned down ,or better,to avoid a nerf rage,introduce abilities in bosses that prevent OPs from endless temp HPs ( like demogorgon did)
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These from me.I also encourage guys to not get intimidate to express their views in the forums. Cheers.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
The are a lot of themes touched in this thread: Party composition and meta: People like one of my old guildies , tend to use as an argument that was a time that 5 cw parties were the meta.Yet forgets to say that you COULD DO ENDGAME CONTENT WITH EVERY OTHER CLASS back then. You can not do CR in gaming realistically time with out a DC and an OP.That is the difference right now.Two classes are absolute must to FINISH THE DAMN content .This was not the case in the past. So as concerning party composition game is way worse than mod2.
Game difficulty: game difficulty is directly affected by the presense of the two classes DC and OP.You have 2 DCs at 15+ K and one OP?One way or another you will finish CR. You have one GF,one Dev OP and 3 DPS and you want to do CR in same time as the previous combo?GL DC and OP provide a great number of buffs and at the same time provide the best mitigation while they are-if properly played-immortal. This was not the case in the past.
I disagree with the statement that you cannot beat CR in a reasonable time without DC and OP. Whilst it would be painful to do it with neither and I would say it takes an unreasonable period of time for that (purely because you then have no healer) you can beat it with either only a dc or only an OP. It was even demonstrated in the thread this was truncated from.
Player mentality/gaming behaviour: This is rather really simple to explain:the guys that play DC and OP protect the curent system and find it "balanced".or to better add,and the guys that have in their FL a lot of the above category players. It is simple human behaviour:they have a great time now,they finish the content first of all,get the new toys and with less time make the most AD.As simple as that.Why to lose that ,cause kangkeok or Wizzard or Pterias want things to be balanced? They want their cookies easy time.
-------- What needs to be done? Revert the Do changes,cap aura of courage,cap OP temp hp,balance the OP pets (razorwood etc) ,remove buff stacking from pets. That would be a nice start and we would go back to one DC per party,or at least trhe difference would not be so great between the parties with two DCs vs parties with one DC. OP buffing and survivability needs to be toned down ,or better,to avoid a nerf rage,introduce abilities in bosses that prevent OPs from endless temp HPs ( like demogorgon did)
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These from me.I also encourage guys to not get intimidate to express their views in the forums.Some of the guys that protect the currwent system have made laughably wrong predictions ,just people are afraid to point show.If I am challenged,I will. Cheers.
Nobody in this thread is saying that buffs should stay as is, or that there aren't many class related issues that need rebalancing. I wrote a very long thread about it. We are all in agreement in this area, even if we don't agree entirely on how it should be done. The main disagreement is that 1 side thinks everything should be so easy any group can do it, whilst the other side feels that it should be challenging and require a tank and healer. For some content to be challenging, some groups have to fail.
^^^ I read the second and the third page. The sides are not so clearly defined as you described,at least from what I read on. I think some people strive for a change ,while others ,fortify themselves on the thesis that there will always be a meta and you must adopt it,or get good,or get geared etc. It is not so generic.Be good,will not make you finish CR unless you have a circle of DC and OP friends,to draw them to form a party.Bea good TR at 17k but having only poor DPS ,or Gf s as friends will make you spend your gaming time in hunts...
The elephant in the room is the DC and the OP.other classes have their issues aswell,but these two affect a wide area of the game. This is not a nerf request,if Do changes are undone ,DC will remain the n1 wanted class. As for OP I have said it in the past ,there is no salavation for that class ,it was deemed broken from day one,by design.tanking through damage done. To avoid the nerf rage ,devs should adapt the content around OPs abilities,and leave the class relatively untouched.
And no, tiered content won't work out well, as already pointed out, but I will summarize again why: 1) It takes up a lot of development time to do correctly, since some mechanics do not scale up/down well. There are 2 types of difficulty, artificial difficulty and designed difficulty. Artificial being when the content is hard because you just raised or lowered some numbers and designed is hard because the content was implicitly made with mechanics that challenge the player. In general, the first is not fun or engaging and the second is fun and engaging. There is no way to scale down the second type to players who want easier content, it is, by its nature implicitly difficult and the first type is unsatisfying. That leaves the only recourse as designing different content for different players.
I think keeping the designed difficulty is fine, great even. This would allow people to learn and train for the harder version. Artificial difficulty is the only thing that really needs to be addressed IMO. Things like the TonG Orcus fight being designed as a DPS check is fine, as long as the HP are low enough to make killing him reasonable before the temp HP run out. Other design mechanics like the Cradle push/pull draw a lot of ire from EVERYONE because it feels like a cheap, punishing platformer mechanic, but it's not affected by party/character power.
As for altering design difficulty for easier versions, if it's even relevant at all, could take the form of novel conveniences like a campfire at the bottom of the elevator in Cradle for example. IMO, designed difficulty features shouldn't be taken away. Being able to focus on the mechanics in a more forgiving numbers (and party comp) environment is kinda the point, to me anyway.
2) Players will always run the content with the best AD per hour ratio. If the easier version gives better rewards then the harder version, guess what gets cut out. This happens in pretty much every game I have played with tiered content as well.
I can sympathize with your concern here. This would definitely need to be handled properly. However, if a "normal" version of, say, CR only gave T2 rewards (brave seals, no UES, etc.), while the T3 "master" CR gave its current rewards, isn't that already the relationship between CR and the other T2 dungeons? I don't see how it would really change the dynamic.
Also, if you de-couple dungeons from their difficulty and we can have a "normal" and a "master" version of the same dungeon, the silver lining there is that there's very little preventing a "legendary" version too! Up all the monsters to lvl 74, double the HP, double the drops, and good friggin' luck! Throwing that into the pot seems like it would truly make this a win for all parties involved.
So that's my revised proposal for variable dungeons: "Normal", "Master" (current level), and "Legendary". Something for everyone.
I never encountered so much elitism as under this thread. I really feel sorry for you guys as you are figthing to keep your virtual muscles to be the biggest in the game and to keep everyone out of your backyard.
Glad I had my eyes opened. I thought endgame players in this game are the ones who should help others, I thought this community is cool. Well, now I see it's not. I guess making some game materials doesn't mean you are a better human being, but there are people here who consider themselves superior.
Happy life to all of you. I'll just stick with "plebe" in my guild, who are not worthy of the content which should be exclusive for few people in this game. I'll try to drag their HAMSTER through dungeons, even though we will propably fail. But hey - they are a decent human beings and not total jerks.
Have fun and keep your dungeons to yourself. Us, the unworthy players, we will shut up and go do some campaigns as you commanded to us.
No more response from me. Peace out.
I was avoiding responding to this but you know what, I will humor you:
I never encountered so much elitism as under this thread. I really feel sorry for you guys as you are fighting to ruin the game for others purely out of self interest with no consideration for players who like content other then what you want.
Glad I had my eyes opened. I thought midgame players in this game are the ones who should be the happiest with the state of the game right now as they still have content to run, I thought this community is cool. Well, now I see it's not. I personally feel like not being able to complete all the content doesn't mean you are a better human being, but there are people here who consider themselves superior for that reason.
Happy life to all of you. I'll just stick with my friends, who do not deserve to have any content designed that challenges and engages us since it all must be for you. I'll try to drag myself through boring content with them, even though we have no interest in running any of it and only play because we enjoy running stuff together. But hey, at least they are a decent human beings and not total jerks.
Have fun and keep your dungeons to yourself. Us, the unworthy players, we will shut up and go do dungeons which are as easy as campaigns as you commanded to us.
No more response from me. Peace out.
See, I can do that too. Now try making an argument that appeals to facts and reasoning instead of emotions, because trying to be emotionally manipulative in an argument is a poor argument to begin with, especially in this case where the same argument can be made from both sides.
I don't go around saying, "PVP should be removed from the game" despite the fact that I never play it. Nor do I go around saying, "The foundry should be removed from the game." If either of those areas receive some development time, good for them, it caters towards those parts of the community, even if it is not for me. So, stop trying to make all the content in the game casual, just because it suits your personal agenda.
If everyone had your mindset where they expected to be carried then nobody would ever complete anything because nobody would work to learn the content. Let that sink in for a moment.
Sometimes Fab, its not about argument. Its about solving the problem. People post this kind of topic up here to find answer to their problem and not to argue with anyone. U might be good at theorycrafting and math but when it comes to socializing and problem solving, u have much to learn from @jase2cool. A problem can be a real pain to solve when people aren't here to solve it but to argue. Just saying.
So you plan to solve your personal problem at the expense of other people's enjoyment? That is the reason there is argument, the existence of resistance in the first place. The fact of the matter is, a forum is a place meant for the exchanging of ideas and sometimes, people will have differing opinions on the same topic. You want to solve your problem without any disagreement? Fine, do it in a way that does not create problems for others and then you won't see argument.
I never claimed I was good at social interactions, in fact, I will openly admit I am bad at them, but you are deluding yourself if you think I am bad at problem solving. Just because I do not agree with the solution (or even the problem for that matter) you propose. How do you think the optimal way to do stuff gets found?
Problem = find most efficient way to run content. Solution = do this.
This is what I do. That is not what you are doing. What you are doing is inventing a new problem to solve your own, which is not the right way to go. You presented your perspective, it clashes with mine. Now, stop trying to force the same "solution" to the problem when it is clearly flawed and is the root cause of disagreement.
And no, tiered content won't work out well, as already pointed out, but I will summarize again why: 1) It takes up a lot of development time to do correctly, since some mechanics do not scale up/down well. There are 2 types of difficulty, artificial difficulty and designed difficulty. Artificial being when the content is hard because you just raised or lowered some numbers and designed is hard because the content was implicitly made with mechanics that challenge the player. In general, the first is not fun or engaging and the second is fun and engaging. There is no way to scale down the second type to players who want easier content, it is, by its nature implicitly difficult and the first type is unsatisfying. That leaves the only recourse as designing different content for different players. 2) Players will always run the content with the best AD per hour ratio. If the easier version gives better rewards then the harder version, guess what gets cut out. This happens in pretty much every game I have played with tiered content as well.
How about instead of asking that all content be made available to you (which obviously comes at the expense of someone else's enjoyment) you ask for something specific to be developed towards your particular tastes. Nothing is stopping you from doing so, but asking for everything to be for you is obviously going to be met with resistance because it is taking something away from someone else in the process.
Hey you are free to disagree with my solution like jase do. I m fine with it. But your problem is, its not that u disagree with the solution. Its that u are ignoring the problem and actually promoting it. There are some people are left out of the content and your answer to it is that they should be left out to make people like you feel exclusive? But anyway, Jase has already address it and I have nothing more to complain. Thanks Jase for staying cool on this matter.
Even some elites sometime takes their times off challenging content to relax and hang out.
The point is: there is zero challenging content in the game for some players, actually zero content.
This is the point that you are missing. Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude, but you specifically said "elites sometime takes their times off challenging content". By the way, you can throw the word "elite" around all you want. I don't want to spend the time explaining the misunderstanding there, again.
If the only motivation someone has to grind their HAMSTER off is to see a piece of content, that speaks very ill of both the rewards and the game's design.
This is an MMO. Progress is measured in years, not days or months. End-game is meant to be played at end-game.
have I specifically suggested anything that would rob the fun from others? I'm not asking as a challenge, it just wasn't my intention and was wondering if anything came across that way.
Unfortunately, yes. I am not saying you mean to do this. However, the hardest content in this game is already very trivial. Adjusting end-game content (to be any easier) would ruin the rare instances of fun that many players experience who seek a challenge.
Like dungeon difficulty and player skill level, player objective in this game are subjective as well. Not everyone playing this game is looking for hardcore experience. Forcing non hardcore player to progress by throwing them hardcore content is not the way.
There is much more content for a "casual player" than there is for a "hardcore player" in Neverwinter right now. There isn't a single argument that can stand a chance against that.
U know I used to think this way in the MMO I played in the past. I despise lazy player, spoiled player who complain of how difficult the game is, anyone that is not on par with me in term of skill level or knowledge on game mechanics.
There is nothing wrong with being lazy. There is nothing wrong with refusing to learn mechanics in a video game. However, a "spoiled player" who complains about difficulty is just that, spoiled and complaining. You can't turn the blame around on others.
This may not be an educational quote, but this is spot on...
“There is no point in using the word 'impossible' to describe something that has clearly happened.” (Douglas Adams)
There is no point to further discuss when there are people that doesnt want to share the content with us.
That is not what people are saying here. All the content in Neverwinter is easily manageable by all players. When you get to that point where you are falling asleep behind the wheel (auto walking into the corner, snoring into your mic), running the hardest content in the game, I promise you will understand what some people are talking about here.
I never encountered so much elitism as under this thread. I really feel sorry for you guys as you are figthing to keep your virtual muscles to be the biggest in the game and to keep everyone out of your backyard.
Nobody has virtual muscles. We are talking about a video game here, it isn't rocket science. Playing well, or bad, isn't anything to be proud of, or ashamed of respectively. Clearly, as you acknowledged earlier, some of the people posting here have already done very significant work for the Neverwinter community. If you take a look at that stuff, it is exactly the opposite of what you are describing. All that work (from some of these "elitist" players) helps people become included that infamous "backyard" you speak of, not excluded from it.
Maybe, I am mistaken about who you are speaking to. If not however, then you are just misinterpreting the point here. I don't mean you disrespect with that, but clearly this is [at the very least] what is going on here:
"Casual" Player: One piece of the content is so hard that a won't be able to play it for a long time.
"Hardcore" Player: I have basically zero content.
Who is actually the one getting ripped off there? ^
A problem can be a real pain to solve when people aren't here to solve it but to argue. Just saying.
Honestly, I can't speak for @thefabricant (who you are talking to here), but I am personally here trying to avoid making a problem worse. People who have invested the most time, effort, and/or money in the game should have something available for them. Please seriously read that point just above your quote here. Think about what is going on here. You might feel excluded from some content, others feel like they have none.
People like one of my old guildies , tend to use as an argument that was a time that 5 cw parties were the meta.Yet forgets to say that you COULD DO ENDGAME CONTENT WITH EVERY OTHER CLASS back then.
Please, explain yourself here. Specifically, which class is unable to finish CR?
You can not do CR in gaming realistically time with out a DC and an OP.That is the difference right now.Two classes are absolute must to FINISH THE DAMN content .
Again, please read the quote I posted above from Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency's, Douglas Adams. I wouldn't try to argue that something is impossible after it has clearly happened.
This is rather really simple to explain:the guys that play DC and OP protect the curent system and find it "balanced".or to better add,and the guys that have in their FL a lot of the above category players. It is simple human behaviour:they have a great time now,they finish the content first of all,get the new toys and with less time make the most AD.As simple as that.Why to lose that ,cause kangkeok or Wizzard or Pterias want things to be balanced? They want their cookies easy time.
No, this discussion is about dungeon difficulty not all that composition talk from the other thread. As I said over there, I am fine with buffs to durability and damage being nerfed. That wouldn't be a problem. The content would be more difficult if those things received significant nerfs. However, I am guessing that you will come back here [the forums], after those nerfs, and complain that the content is now harder (or impossible). In that case, you will just be shooting yourself in the foot, and I will be watching. 0_0
Remember there is only a given amount of time that will go into developing Neverwinter moving forward...
Bea good TR at 17k but having only poor DPS ,or Gf s as friends will make you spend your gaming time in hunts... Cheers
I do not understand what you are saying here. TRs have excellent DPS. They are very viable for CR and any content, even at ILs well under 16/17K.
Just to be clear @kangkeok , pterias , @wizardlvl80#5963 , and @hypervoreian , I don't want to disrespect any of you. I just hope that you can see the difference between "I can't do some content yet" and "I have zero content". The latter is much more troubling in my opinion.
I truly believe that you don't see how your points are further hindering our chances of having any enjoyable content in the future. I don't blame you for that, but please understand that we have nothing challenging. We are simply asking for maybe 1 or 2 pieces of content to run (each mod) that is enjoyable for our play-style (or whatever you want to call it). We aren't asking for all content to be enjoyable, as you are.
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therealprotexMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 526Arc User
"Casual" Player: One piece of the content is so hard that a won't be able to play it for a long time.
"Hardcore" Player: I have basically zero content.
So what is wrong to argue for/implement a solution that would be beneficial for both types of players instead of insisting on a status quo where both types of players are dissatisfied?
Even some elites sometime takes their times off challenging content to relax and hang out.
The point is: there is zero challenging content in the game for some players, actually zero content.
This is the point that you are missing. Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude, but you specifically said "elites sometime takes their times off challenging content". By the way, you can throw the word "elite" around all you want. I don't want to spend the time explaining the misunderstanding there, again.
There is no point to further discuss when there are people that doesnt want to share the content with us.
That is not what people are saying here. All the content in Neverwinter is easily manageable by all players. When you get to that point where you are falling asleep behind the wheel (auto walking into the corner, snoring into your mic), running the hardest content in the game, I promise you will understand what some people are talking about here.
Just to be clear @kangkeok , pterias , @wizardlvl80#5963 , and @hypervoreian , I don't want to disrespect any of you. I just hope that you can see the difference between "I can't do some content yet" and "I have zero content". The latter is much more troubling in my opinion.
I truly believe that you don't see how your points are further hindering our chances of having any enjoyable content in the future. I don't blame you for that, but please understand that we have nothing challenging. We are simply asking for maybe 1 or 2 pieces of content to run (each mod) that is enjoyable for our play-style (or whatever you want to call it). We aren't asking for all content to be enjoyable, as you are.
How is it that my point there hinder your chances of having enjoyable content in the future? I m merely suggesting that people that like hard content should have hard content while the people that prefer easier content should have them too. With that, i dont see my suggestion are hindering people that like hard content from getting hard content.
What I read from your comment suggest that u did not fully follow our conversation here. If not u would have known that. Although, I do against people that are trying to have content exclusively for themselves which are the problem here. If you are not that type of people so why bother? I m merely speaking to those people that do.
U need to be clear with everyone stand point here before u post or you are making things complicated with a wall of pointless text. I hope you are not trying to argue just because u wanna argue or trying to create further drama because u are bored. Anyway, I have agreed with jase suggestion there so I really don't see any point to argue things that already been address.
In Path of Exile they allow you to run your toons at various level of difficulty. I would be for this, just make the loot drops better when you set the content harder.
So what is wrong to argue for/implement a solution that would be beneficial for both types of players instead of insisting on a status quo where both types of players are dissatisfied?
How is it that my point there hinder your chances of having enjoyable content in the future? I m merely suggesting that people that like hard content should have hard content while the people that prefer easier content should have them too. With that, i dont see my suggestion are hindering people that like hard content from getting hard content.
What I read from your comment suggest that u did not fully follow our conversation here. If not u would have known that. Although, I do against people that are trying to have content exclusively for themselves which are the problem here. If you are not that type of people so why bother? I m merely speaking to those people that do.
U need to be clear with everyone stand point here before u post or you are making things complicated with a wall of pointless text. I hope you are not trying to argue just because u wanna argue or trying to create further drama because u are bored. Anyway, I have agreed with jase suggestion there so I really don't see any point to argue things that already been address.
Maybe you guys should travel back one page in this discussion and read my post about having 6 different [tiered] dungeons available each module release. It seems you clearly missed that.
The problem here is...
There is nothing wrong with some players not being ready for content. That is the very thing that motivates players to further develop their characters, knowledge of the game, and play-style. It seems that some players here feel that all people should have access to all content, at all times. If that were the case, Neverwinter wouldn't have a single piece of content that would motivate players to progress towards. Cryptic wouldn't make as much money. As much as you might hate that idea, that is what allows you (if you are) to play the game totally for free.
All players should not be playing all content. Players should need to progress to a point before entering a content that demands a level of progress. Obviously, as it is now, all types of players have access to all content. You don't need to be a hardcore player to run Castle Ravenloft. It can be done casually, quite easily. All you need is to do is progress to a certain point, and you will be laughing at that dungeon.
There should be content for everyone. Currently, there isn't. If you have taken the time to learn all of the classes in Neverwinter and fine-tuned your character, you have absolutely zero content. The hardest stuff in this game is an absolute joke for a good group.
How is that a bad thing? There are plenty of pieces of content for players that are not at end-game. Additionally, at the moment, there is no end-game content. I just saw a friend of mine kill Strahd from full HP to dead in about 3 seconds. He was 14K IL. Sure, the sunsword is OP. Seriously though? In Neverwinter's current state, 14K IL player can steam roll the final boss in the "hardest" content of the game?
That is a complete joke. ^
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therealprotexMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 526Arc User
There is nothing wrong with some players not being ready for content. That is the very thing that motivates players to further develop their characters, knowledge of the game, and play-style. It seems that some players here feel that all people should have access to all content, at all times. If that were the case, Neverwinter wouldn't have a single piece of content that would motivate players to progress towards. Cryptic wouldn't make as much money. As much as you might hate that idea, that is what allows you (if you are) to play the game totally for free.
All players should not be playing all content. Players should need to progress to a point before entering a content that demands a level of progress. Obviously, as it is now, all types of players have access to all content. You don't need to be a hardcore player to run Castle Ravenloft. It can be done casually, quite easily. All you need is to do is progress to a certain point, and you will be laughing at that dungeon.
There should be content for everyone. Currently, there isn't. If you have taken the time to learn all of the classes in Neverwinter and fine-tuned your character, you have absolutely zero content. The hardest stuff in this game is an absolute joke for a good group.
Currently, there is content that is not for every player and currently, every player has to make a certain progress to unlock content. We surely can discuss about the progress thresholds for unlocking (e.g IL is too low for T2.5/3), but if you think anyone of us argues that a fresh level 70 should be able to run Ravenloft, it is you who should re-read the pages again.
The main problem is that players are locked out of content not because they did not progress their character enough, but because they play a certain class with a certain build. The best (in terms of most progressed) Spellstorm-Thauma-CW will have a hatd time to find a group for Ravenloft outside his guild and friend list. Yes, I know, everyone has seen Spellstorm-Thauma-CWs running CR, but single instances do not make a trend.
The suggestions in this thread would be possible solutions for this problem. They would benefit all kind of players and hence, the game itself. And unless you want to promote elite thinking ("Lo and behold, I am one of the best meta-matching chars, I have the sun-weapon set and can run CR in under 5 minutes! And YOU CAN NOT! Muahahaha!"), there is actually no reason to insist on your "All players should not be playing all content".
So what is wrong to argue for/implement a solution that would be beneficial for both types of players instead of insisting on a status quo where both types of players are dissatisfied?
How is it that my point there hinder your chances of having enjoyable content in the future? I m merely suggesting that people that like hard content should have hard content while the people that prefer easier content should have them too. With that, i dont see my suggestion are hindering people that like hard content from getting hard content.
What I read from your comment suggest that u did not fully follow our conversation here. If not u would have known that. Although, I do against people that are trying to have content exclusively for themselves which are the problem here. If you are not that type of people so why bother? I m merely speaking to those people that do.
U need to be clear with everyone stand point here before u post or you are making things complicated with a wall of pointless text. I hope you are not trying to argue just because u wanna argue or trying to create further drama because u are bored. Anyway, I have agreed with jase suggestion there so I really don't see any point to argue things that already been address.
Maybe you guys should travel back one page in this discussion and read my post about having 6 different [tiered] dungeons available each module release. It seems you clearly missed that.
The problem here is...
There is nothing wrong with some players not being ready for content. That is the very thing that motivates players to further develop their characters, knowledge of the game, and play-style. It seems that some players here feel that all people should have access to all content, at all times. If that were the case, Neverwinter wouldn't have a single piece of content that would motivate players to progress towards. Cryptic wouldn't make as much money. As much as you might hate that idea, that is what allows you (if you are) to play the game totally for free.
All players should not be playing all content. Players should need to progress to a point before entering a content that demands a level of progress. Obviously, as it is now, all types of players have access to all content. You don't need to be a hardcore player to run Castle Ravenloft. It can be done casually, quite easily. All you need is to do is progress to a certain point, and you will be laughing at that dungeon.
There should be content for everyone. Currently, there isn't. If you have taken the time to learn all of the classes in Neverwinter and fine-tuned your character, you have absolutely zero content. The hardest stuff in this game is an absolute joke for a good group.
How is that a bad thing? There are plenty of pieces of content for players that are not at end-game. Additionally, at the moment, there is no end-game content. I just saw a friend of mine kill Strahd from full HP to dead in about 3 seconds. He was 14K IL. Sure, the sunsword is OP. Seriously though? In Neverwinter's current state, 14K IL player can steam roll the final boss in the "hardest" content of the game?
That is a complete joke. ^
I have seen games that have multi difficulty option and I don't see it hinder player from progression? If u think content is too easy for you, just ask the developer to make it harder. As long as more casuals player are given options to pick their preference of difficulty, all is well. I don't see why casuals and hardcore player cant co-exist in this game. Other games are fine.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
In Path of Exile they allow you to run your toons at various level of difficulty. I would be for this, just make the loot drops better when you set the content harder.
We did actually get a variant of this with the Barovia hunts - they have a base difficulty and players can increase the difficulty and reward level. Personally I really liked the idea and the implementation - and I hope to see something similar in future mods.
I have not read all of this thread and I have no intention of doing so.. but why would it be a point of debate to say why can't they release a N and M version of every new dungeon? that's a good thing for everyone. there doesn't have to be a nerf to the dungeons for the high level people.. and the low level people don't have to look on with sadness at the shiny new stuff the high levels are getting. it's win win I don't see why this is a point of contention?
it's also good to have a training ground for new super hard dungeons.
some people will never have the means to be end game. My attempt to move over to pc taught that to me very clearly. as a reasonably well off xbox player it just never occurred to me how hard starting over would really be. I did it on ps4 and was ok but it was a new system with a new economy. where everyone was at the same place. a newer player coming into an already established economy is at an extreme disadvantage. oh i'm sure if I stuck with it eventually I'd be end game. but the controls were also unwieldy. so these new end game dungeons are pretty much fugetaboutit. I don't think there is anyway in hell I'd have been able to ever stick to the platform in codg in pc EVER..
yet I'm sure I'm not the only one. lots of handicapped people play. lots of people who aren't terribly dexterous with their hands, like me. N versions make it possible for most everyone to having something new to do. something new to strive for.
you need those new people to stay in the game and not get discouraged or the game will die. the bar is incredibly high at the moment. it may not seem like it to many who aren't newer to the game because they've gotten used to the boiling water.. but other people stick their toes in and go OMGDATSFUGGINGHOT.
everyone wants the new and shiny. if there is no new and shiny carrot to aim for they will pack up and head to a new game that will give them something shiny.
the bar is just so high right now that it's not even a realistic thing to aim for. For a lot of people its like an impossibility to them and kind of rightly so. but if you give them a bone.. something they can aim for they then have the thing to work to get better for and thus salvage the desire to remain in this game. the n version should still be hard for them but maybe a cake walk for an elite.
There really are two tiers of players in neverwinter. I've known both sides. there is a huge contingent of people who are happy where they're at. hanging with friends not worrying about best gear and they do get bored with what they have. and there are people who want to be bis and the best and never the twain shall meet. I guess there is a third tier of people who are between those two continents. but anyway, the point is you can please both of them. N and M dungeons..
All this is well and good, but to me, the biggest hurdle is the difference between teammates, and people with a hero complex. Problem is, NW caters the content to the hero crowd. Hero’s tend to suck as teammates, ergo as soon as any content requires a shadow of team play, things go to pot. A good example is that ‘FBI needs to be nerfed’ thread.
We have a combat system which has always been a lot of fun but unfortunately the design is and has been profoundly lacking. Difficulty isn’t making mobs have insane dps, or some other variation of being one rounded..nor is it some silly platform~y log roll gimmick(cradle).. and it’s absolutely not timing a buff window to create extreme dps. Sure that last parts an ingredient to good play but presently that the whole enchilada.
Personally, I long for the teamwork Eq instilled in players and the community it created. While I know that kind of fun is unrealistic in this paradigm it would be great to at least see a sliver of it in Nw
I never encountered so much elitism as under this thread. I really feel sorry for you guys as you are figthing to keep your virtual muscles to be the biggest in the game and to keep everyone out of your backyard.
Glad I had my eyes opened. I thought endgame players in this game are the ones who should help others, I thought this community is cool. Well, now I see it's not. I guess making some game materials doesn't mean you are a better human being, but there are people here who consider themselves superior.
Happy life to all of you. I'll just stick with "plebe" in my guild, who are not worthy of the content which should be exclusive for few people in this game. I'll try to drag their HAMSTER through dungeons, even though we will propably fail. But hey - they are a decent human beings and not total jerks.
Have fun and keep your dungeons to yourself. Us, the unworthy players, we will shut up and go do some campaigns as you commanded to us.
No more response from me. Peace out.
I was avoiding responding to this but you know what, I will humor you:
I never encountered so much elitism as under this thread. I really feel sorry for you guys as you are fighting to ruin the game for others purely out of self interest with no consideration for players who like content other then what you want.
Glad I had my eyes opened. I thought midgame players in this game are the ones who should be the happiest with the state of the game right now as they still have content to run, I thought this community is cool. Well, now I see it's not. I personally feel like not being able to complete all the content doesn't mean you are a better human being, but there are people here who consider themselves superior for that reason.
Happy life to all of you. I'll just stick with my friends, who do not deserve to have any content designed that challenges and engages us since it all must be for you. I'll try to drag myself through boring content with them, even though we have no interest in running any of it and only play because we enjoy running stuff together. But hey, at least they are a decent human beings and not total jerks.
Have fun and keep your dungeons to yourself. Us, the unworthy players, we will shut up and go do dungeons which are as easy as campaigns as you commanded to us.
No more response from me. Peace out.
See, I can do that too. Now try making an argument that appeals to facts and reasoning instead of emotions, because trying to be emotionally manipulative in an argument is a poor argument to begin with, especially in this case where the same argument can be made from both sides.
I don't go around saying, "PVP should be removed from the game" despite the fact that I never play it. Nor do I go around saying, "The foundry should be removed from the game." If either of those areas receive some development time, good for them, it caters towards those parts of the community, even if it is not for me. So, stop trying to make all the content in the game casual, just because it suits your personal agenda.
If everyone had your mindset where they expected to be carried then nobody would ever complete anything because nobody would work to learn the content. Let that sink in for a moment.
Sometimes Fab, its not about argument. Its about solving the problem. People post this kind of topic up here to find answer to their problem and not to argue with anyone. U might be good at theorycrafting and math but when it comes to socializing and problem solving, u have much to learn from @jase2cool. A problem can be a real pain to solve when people aren't here to solve it but to argue. Just saying.
So you plan to solve your personal problem at the expense of other people's enjoyment? That is the reason there is argument, the existence of resistance in the first place. The fact of the matter is, a forum is a place meant for the exchanging of ideas and sometimes, people will have differing opinions on the same topic. You want to solve your problem without any disagreement? Fine, do it in a way that does not create problems for others and then you won't see argument.
I never claimed I was good at social interactions, in fact, I will openly admit I am bad at them, but you are deluding yourself if you think I am bad at problem solving. Just because I do not agree with the solution (or even the problem for that matter) you propose. How do you think the optimal way to do stuff gets found?
Problem = find most efficient way to run content. Solution = do this.
This is what I do. That is not what you are doing. What you are doing is inventing a new problem to solve your own, which is not the right way to go. You presented your perspective, it clashes with mine. Now, stop trying to force the same "solution" to the problem when it is clearly flawed and is the root cause of disagreement.
And no, tiered content won't work out well, as already pointed out, but I will summarize again why: 1) It takes up a lot of development time to do correctly, since some mechanics do not scale up/down well. There are 2 types of difficulty, artificial difficulty and designed difficulty. Artificial being when the content is hard because you just raised or lowered some numbers and designed is hard because the content was implicitly made with mechanics that challenge the player. In general, the first is not fun or engaging and the second is fun and engaging. There is no way to scale down the second type to players who want easier content, it is, by its nature implicitly difficult and the first type is unsatisfying. That leaves the only recourse as designing different content for different players. 2) Players will always run the content with the best AD per hour ratio. If the easier version gives better rewards then the harder version, guess what gets cut out. This happens in pretty much every game I have played with tiered content as well.
How about instead of asking that all content be made available to you (which obviously comes at the expense of someone else's enjoyment) you ask for something specific to be developed towards your particular tastes. Nothing is stopping you from doing so, but asking for everything to be for you is obviously going to be met with resistance because it is taking something away from someone else in the process.
Hey you are free to disagree with my solution like jase do. I m fine with it. But your problem is, its not that u disagree with the solution. Its that u are ignoring the problem and actually promoting it. There are some people are left out of the content and your answer to it is that they should be left out to make people like you feel exclusive? But anyway, Jase has already address it and I have nothing more to complain. Thanks Jase for staying cool on this matter.
I Think, that you dont get the argument of the 'hardcore' players.
They dont want to exclude anyone. It is not like some rich ppl asking for higher property values, so they dont have to share their view with the rabble.
This is more like, some ppl play ticktacktoe and some ppl like playing chess. You can dumb down chess to a ticktacktoe level and still call it chess, but it will be ticktacktoe. A chess player would not want to play this version of 'chess', it would be boring. Chess players are not excluding the ticktacktoe players out of some kind of elitism. Everyone can learn to play chess.
The argument against tiered dungeon is, as far as I see it, that there is no way, to make chess ticktacktoe player friendly, so the Devs would have to create a third game, that looks like chess, but is as simple as ticktacktoe. While possible, it would leech at the resources of the company, just to make some players feel included, while in fact, they are still not able to play chess.
This might be an oversimplification of the problem, but might help some ppl understand the problem here.
I never encountered so much elitism as under this thread. I really feel sorry for you guys as you are figthing to keep your virtual muscles to be the biggest in the game and to keep everyone out of your backyard.
Glad I had my eyes opened. I thought endgame players in this game are the ones who should help others, I thought this community is cool. Well, now I see it's not. I guess making some game materials doesn't mean you are a better human being, but there are people here who consider themselves superior.
Happy life to all of you. I'll just stick with "plebe" in my guild, who are not worthy of the content which should be exclusive for few people in this game. I'll try to drag their HAMSTER through dungeons, even though we will propably fail. But hey - they are a decent human beings and not total jerks.
Have fun and keep your dungeons to yourself. Us, the unworthy players, we will shut up and go do some campaigns as you commanded to us.
No more response from me. Peace out.
I was avoiding responding to this but you know what, I will humor you:
I never encountered so much elitism as under this thread. I really feel sorry for you guys as you are fighting to ruin the game for others purely out of self interest with no consideration for players who like content other then what you want.
Glad I had my eyes opened. I thought midgame players in this game are the ones who should be the happiest with the state of the game right now as they still have content to run, I thought this community is cool. Well, now I see it's not. I personally feel like not being able to complete all the content doesn't mean you are a better human being, but there are people here who consider themselves superior for that reason.
Happy life to all of you. I'll just stick with my friends, who do not deserve to have any content designed that challenges and engages us since it all must be for you. I'll try to drag myself through boring content with them, even though we have no interest in running any of it and only play because we enjoy running stuff together. But hey, at least they are a decent human beings and not total jerks.
Have fun and keep your dungeons to yourself. Us, the unworthy players, we will shut up and go do dungeons which are as easy as campaigns as you commanded to us.
No more response from me. Peace out.
See, I can do that too. Now try making an argument that appeals to facts and reasoning instead of emotions, because trying to be emotionally manipulative in an argument is a poor argument to begin with, especially in this case where the same argument can be made from both sides.
I don't go around saying, "PVP should be removed from the game" despite the fact that I never play it. Nor do I go around saying, "The foundry should be removed from the game." If either of those areas receive some development time, good for them, it caters towards those parts of the community, even if it is not for me. So, stop trying to make all the content in the game casual, just because it suits your personal agenda.
If everyone had your mindset where they expected to be carried then nobody would ever complete anything because nobody would work to learn the content. Let that sink in for a moment.
Sometimes Fab, its not about argument. Its about solving the problem. People post this kind of topic up here to find answer to their problem and not to argue with anyone. U might be good at theorycrafting and math but when it comes to socializing and problem solving, u have much to learn from @jase2cool. A problem can be a real pain to solve when people aren't here to solve it but to argue. Just saying.
So you plan to solve your personal problem at the expense of other people's enjoyment? That is the reason there is argument, the existence of resistance in the first place. The fact of the matter is, a forum is a place meant for the exchanging of ideas and sometimes, people will have differing opinions on the same topic. You want to solve your problem without any disagreement? Fine, do it in a way that does not create problems for others and then you won't see argument.
I never claimed I was good at social interactions, in fact, I will openly admit I am bad at them, but you are deluding yourself if you think I am bad at problem solving. Just because I do not agree with the solution (or even the problem for that matter) you propose. How do you think the optimal way to do stuff gets found?
Problem = find most efficient way to run content. Solution = do this.
This is what I do. That is not what you are doing. What you are doing is inventing a new problem to solve your own, which is not the right way to go. You presented your perspective, it clashes with mine. Now, stop trying to force the same "solution" to the problem when it is clearly flawed and is the root cause of disagreement.
And no, tiered content won't work out well, as already pointed out, but I will summarize again why: 1) It takes up a lot of development time to do correctly, since some mechanics do not scale up/down well. There are 2 types of difficulty, artificial difficulty and designed difficulty. Artificial being when the content is hard because you just raised or lowered some numbers and designed is hard because the content was implicitly made with mechanics that challenge the player. In general, the first is not fun or engaging and the second is fun and engaging. There is no way to scale down the second type to players who want easier content, it is, by its nature implicitly difficult and the first type is unsatisfying. That leaves the only recourse as designing different content for different players. 2) Players will always run the content with the best AD per hour ratio. If the easier version gives better rewards then the harder version, guess what gets cut out. This happens in pretty much every game I have played with tiered content as well.
How about instead of asking that all content be made available to you (which obviously comes at the expense of someone else's enjoyment) you ask for something specific to be developed towards your particular tastes. Nothing is stopping you from doing so, but asking for everything to be for you is obviously going to be met with resistance because it is taking something away from someone else in the process.
Hey you are free to disagree with my solution like jase do. I m fine with it. But your problem is, its not that u disagree with the solution. Its that u are ignoring the problem and actually promoting it. There are some people are left out of the content and your answer to it is that they should be left out to make people like you feel exclusive? But anyway, Jase has already address it and I have nothing more to complain. Thanks Jase for staying cool on this matter.
I Think, that you dont get the argument of the 'hardcore' players.
They dont want to exclude anyone. It is not like some rich ppl asking for higher property values, so they dont have to share their view with the rabble.
This is more like, some ppl play ticktacktoe and some ppl like playing chess. You can dumb down chess to a ticktacktoe level and still call it chess, but it will be ticktacktoe. A chess player would not want to play this version of 'chess', it would be boring. Chess players are not excluding the ticktacktoe players out of some kind of elitism. Everyone can learn to play chess.
The argument against tiered dungeon is, as far as I see it, that there is no way, to make chess ticktacktoe player friendly, so the Devs would have to create a third game, that looks like chess, but is as simple as ticktacktoe. While possible, it would leech at the resources of the company, just to make some players feel included, while in fact, they are still not able to play chess.
This might be an oversimplification of the problem, but might help some ppl understand the problem here.
1st of, that statement is for Fab and not for hardcorer that don't share his opinion on the content should be exclusive thing. If u don't share that opinion then don't bother.
2nd, Simple as it may be but if u did not get your facts in, u are still bringing in pointless argument. You see, i dont know why u people keep saying that i ask to dumb down chess. If u read closely to my suggestion, I merely ask that the game provide the option for both tic tac toe and chess so both parties gets to play their own game. If the Dev creates a third game that looks like chess but simple as tictactoe, then bring that up to them. Thats not my idea?
3rd, Its not for us to decide how the resources are spend. Although, from my point of view, the point of MMO is to gather as many player as they could to keep the game going. For if its worthwhile or not, its up to the company to decides not us. We do not have the information on the resources or the power to manage to say otherwise.
This baffles me. No mid game content? theres plenty, once you are done with that you move up to the next difficulty with your improved gear and carry on this process. And you get more powerful with campaigns and boons. Isn't this how games work? Mid tier players still need to learn boss mechanics to complete dungeons, and how to overcome them like in any other MMO.
Currently, there is content that is not for every player and currently, every player has to make a certain progress to unlock content. We surely can discuss about the progress thresholds for unlocking (e.g IL is too low for T2.5/3), but if you think anyone of us argues that a fresh level 70 should be able to run Ravenloft, it is you who should re-read the pages again.
@therealprotex Then what is your argument? The people that are failing at Castle Ravenloft are not failing because of their gear. I have done runs with plenty of people under 15K IL. They have no problems. Most of them have already completed it (on a main) so they understand the mechanics. That is the important thing to understand here...
People are not failing to complete content due to the developers' actions. They are failing to complete content because they are failing to learn enough about what they are doing, and what they should do better. The end-game material in this game is not mechanically difficult, but some players refuse to learn the mechanics of their class, other classes, synergies, and the content which they are playing.
The main problem is that players are locked out of content not because they did not progress their character enough, but because they play a certain class with a certain build. The best (in terms of most progressed) Spellstorm-Thauma-CW will have a hatd time to find a group for Ravenloft outside his guild and friend list. Yes, I know, everyone has seen Spellstorm-Thauma-CWs running CR, but single instances do not make a trend.
This quote makes it entirely clear that you are not in a position to talk about this game's end-game content. Anyone that has followed and adapted to the changes of the game will understand what I mean here. What is so important about playing Thaumaturge? Why not play something better like SS Oppressor? Do you get some extra personal enjoyment out of Elemental Empowerment or Assailing Force happening?
SS CWs have absolutely no problem clearing a CR in a decent time. They are completely welcome in groups. As I said somewhere else, a SS CW cleared CR in a decent time before the dungeon even hit the live server.
You could play a Scoundrel WK TR too, and complain that you can't find groups for PvE. What does that say? It says that you need to learn more about the game. It doesn't say that some content needs to have an easier option.
The suggestions in this thread would be possible solutions for this problem. They would benefit all kind of players and hence, the game itself. And unless you want to promote elite thinking ("Lo and behold, I am one of the best meta-matching chars, I have the sun-weapon set and can run CR in under 5 minutes! And YOU CAN NOT! Muahahaha!"), there is actually no reason to insist on your "All players should not be playing all content".
No, making an "easy" version of every piece of content in a F2P (micro-transaction model) game would not benefit everyone. If you really think it would, I suggest you do some research about that. Also, you should maybe edit out that comment about the "sun-weapons" that is just another example of you not understanding what you are talking about. There is no hatred or flaming in that last statement, but I think you should have at least a basic understanding of "end-game" Neverwinter before commenting about it.
I have seen games that have multi difficulty option and I don't see it hinder player from progression? If u think content is too easy for you, just ask the developer to make it harder. As long as more casuals player are given options to pick their preference of difficulty, all is well. I don't see why casuals and hardcore player cant co-exist in this game. Other games are fine.
@kangkeok Casuals and "hardcore" players can co-exist in this game. However, at the moment, there is nothing that "hardcore" players get rewarded with. None of the content in this game (including CR) requires "hardcore" play-style, as you suggest. I know that you believe it does, because you are struggling with it, but it doesn't. There is ZERO content which requires you to play this way. Most people that run CR regularly are not sitting in Discord making call-outs. They are falling asleep grinding the dungeon over and over. That is boring, and completely counterproductive towards the further endorsement of this game from it's most dedicated player-base.
An easy-mode option is not a viable method of promoting motivation towards progression in this game. Motivation (to overcome exclusion, for example) is key component Neverwinter's success or failure. If you don't understand that, based on their business model, I suggest you read into that. I really don't want to spend the time explaining that here.
All this is well and good, but to me, the biggest hurdle is the difference between teammates, and people with a hero complex. Problem is, NW caters the content to the hero crowd. Hero’s tend to suck as teammates, ergo as soon as any content requires a shadow of team play, things go to pot. A good example is that ‘FBI needs to be nerfed’ thread.
We have a combat system which has always been a lot of fun but unfortunately the design is and has been profoundly lacking. Difficulty isn’t making mobs have insane dps, or some other variation of being one rounded..nor is it some silly platform~y log roll gimmick(cradle).. and it’s absolutely not timing a buff window to create extreme dps. Sure that last parts an ingredient to good play but presently that the whole enchilada.
Personally, I long for the teamwork Eq instilled in players and the community it created. While I know that kind of fun is unrealistic in this paradigm it would be great to at least see a sliver of it in Nw
@kriptical1 I fully agree with most of this, actually. The problem is (and I truly wish this wasn't the case) is that this type of team work (I think) that you are calling for is impossible for most Neverwinter players. I honestly would enjoy dungeons that demanded more coordination, but if players are already struggling with this what we have, there is no hope for that being possible.
We would have players coming here (to the forums) saying, I don't have a mic. I am feeling excluded, for example...
At the end of the day, at least we have buff-window coordination, but I agree, that shouldn't be the "whole enchilada".
I Think, that you dont get the argument of the 'hardcore' players.
They dont want to exclude anyone. It is not like some rich ppl asking for higher property values, so they dont have to share their view with the rabble.
This is more like, some ppl play ticktacktoe and some ppl like playing chess. You can dumb down chess to a ticktacktoe level and still call it chess, but it will be ticktacktoe. A chess player would not want to play this version of 'chess', it would be boring. Chess players are not excluding the ticktacktoe players out of some kind of elitism. Everyone can learn to play chess.
The argument against tiered dungeon is, as far as I see it, that there is no way, to make chess ticktacktoe player friendly, so the Devs would have to create a third game, that looks like chess, but is as simple as ticktacktoe. While possible, it would leech at the resources of the company, just to make some players feel included, while in fact, they are still not able to play chess.
This might be an oversimplification of the problem, but might help some ppl understand the problem here.
@asterotg I could not have made a better analogy. That was awesome. Well said, and I fully agree with you.
1st of, that statement is for Fab and not for hardcorer that don't share his opinion on the content should be exclusive thing. If u don't share that opinion then don't bother.
I am trying my best to interpret that quote, but I am unable to translate that.
2nd, Simple as it may be but if u did not get your facts in, u are still bringing in pointless argument. You see, i dont know why u people keep saying that i ask to dumb down chess. If u read closely to my suggestion, I merely ask that the game provide the option for both tic tac toe and chess so both parties gets to play their own game. If the Dev creates a third game that looks like chess but simple as tictactoe, then bring that up to them. Thats not my idea?
3rd, Its not for us to decide how the resources are spend. Although, from my point of view, the point of MMO is to gather as many player as they could to keep the game going. For if its worthwhile or not, its up to the company to decides not us. We do not have the information on the resources or the power to manage to say otherwise.
This ^ is exactly why Castle Ravenloft is soooo "difficult" for some players...
At the end of the day, you need to realize that ZERO content in Neverwinter is actually exclusive. Players might exclude some people who don't know what they are doing, but that is not the developers' fault. The game does not demand that much from it's players. I wish that it did demand more from it's players.
You shouldn't feel excluded from content. I promise you, with a little bit of effort, you can really shine in Neverwinter. It is one of the easiest things that I have ever focused on, in my entire life. This is just a video game, and it is already one of the easier ones.
2
therealprotexMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 526Arc User
The main problem is that players are locked out of content not because they did not progress their character enough, but because they play a certain class with a certain build. The best (in terms of most progressed) Spellstorm-Thauma-CW will have a hatd time to find a group for Ravenloft outside his guild and friend list. Yes, I know, everyone has seen Spellstorm-Thauma-CWs running CR, but single instances do not make a trend.
This quote makes it entirely clear that you are not in a position to talk about this game's end-game content. Anyone that has followed and adapted to the changes of the game will understand what I mean here. What is so important about playing Thaumaturge? Why not play something better like SS Oppressor? Do you get some extra personal enjoyment out of Elemental Empowerment or Assailing Force happening?
Actually, this quote disqualifies you to talk about end-game content. If you want to tell people what class and build they have to play, you seem to forget that this still is a game that is mainly played - forgive me my naive idealism - because people want to have fun. I tried every build from @thefabricant 's famous document and none of them is fun for me. And while my SS Thauma CW still has to find a SS Oppr CW of similar equipment that matches him DPS-wise, my CW is shunned solely for the reason that he is not a build that elitists as you want him to be. And telling from the many threads and posts in this forum, I am not alone in this.
I was wrong, your attitude does not disqualify you to talk about end-game content, actually it disqualifies you to discuss any game-related stuff here, because you take your opinion as a hard fact that must not be discussed.
The suggestions in this thread would be possible solutions for this problem. They would benefit all kind of players and hence, the game itself. And unless you want to promote elite thinking ("Lo and behold, I am one of the best meta-matching chars, I have the sun-weapon set and can run CR in under 5 minutes! And YOU CAN NOT! Muahahaha!"), there is actually no reason to insist on your "All players should not be playing all content".
No, making an "easy" version of every piece of content in a F2P (micro-transaction model) game would not benefit everyone. If you really think it would, I suggest you do some research about that. Also, you should maybe edit out that comment about the "sun-weapons" that is just another example of you not understanding what you are talking about. There is no hatred or flaming in that last statement, but I think you should have at least a basic understanding of "end-game" Neverwinter before commenting about it.
Captain Arrogance around the corner again. *sigh* Your opinion is just that, an opinion. It is nether the only one and surely not the only relevant. And as long as you back it up with pseudo arguments only ("do some research"), it is even the least relevant. Logic dictates that the game benefits the most from a state where the majority of players is content. With the barovian hunting system applied to future dungeons this state can easily be reached. Period.
Holding on to a state as it is now only proves that your point is not the difficulty for hardcore players, your point is to have something that other can not have. Your point is to brag that you can do something that others can not do. Your point is to maintain the elitism that is so harmful for this game.
Actually, this quote disqualifies you to talk about end-game content. If you want to tell people what class and build they have to play, you seem to forget that this still is a game that is mainly played - forgive me my naive idealism - because people want to have fun. I tried every build from @thefabricant 's famous document and none of them is fun for me. And while my SS Thauma CW still has to find a SS Oppr CW of similar equipment that matches him DPS-wise, my CW is shunned solely for the reason that he is not a build that elitists as you want him to be. And telling from the many threads and posts in this forum, I am not alone in this.
I was wrong, your attitude does not disqualify you to talk about end-game content, actually it disqualifies you to discuss any game-related stuff here, because you take your opinion as a hard fact that must not be discussed.
@therealprotex Answer me something, so that your comment starts to make sense.
What makes SS Thaumaturge more fun to play than SS Oppressor?
The only real difference is Spell Twisting, and you can take that as a SS Oppressor without completely breaking your build. You just won't be as effective.
If you are saying that your build is doing awesome damage, and no other CWs can step up to you, I am happy to accept a challenge. I love challenges.
You said "my CW is shunned solely for the reason that he is not a build that elitists as you want him to be", and that isn't true. If you were playing well people would notice and they wouldn't exclude you from their groups. That is just how things are (not only in this video game), you can't form an argument against that. If you play well, people will invite you back.
Responding to that last part, we are here [along with the other discussion] posting examples (evidence) of our claims. More importantly, go watch a couple decent videos (yourself) on YouTube and you will clearly see how much this game has been trivialized. You are simply coming here complaining that some content is too tough for you. You are offering nothing more than "I'm struggling, I want an easy button".
Captain Arrogance around the corner again. sigh Your opinion is just that, an opinion. It is nether the only one and surely not the only relevant. And as long as you back it up with pseudo arguments only ("do some research"), it is even the least relevant. Logic dictates that the game benefits the most from a state where the majority of players is content. With the barovian hunting system applied to future dungeons this state can easily be reached. Period.
Holding on to a state as it is now only proves that your point is not the difficulty for hardcore players, your point is to have something that other can not have. Your point is to brag that you can do something that others can not do. Your point is to maintain the elitism that is so harmful for this game.
No, that isn't the point. I am not going to sit here and discuss the various models of monetization that various games utilize, and how they have to structure their players experience respectively in that model. That is for you to learn yourself. That also is not a huge topic in this discussion.
The huge topic is this...
Players are coming to these forums actually trying to make an argument that Neverwinter is somehow too difficult. There is even a discussion that FBI is somehow too difficult. That is absurd.
How are there so many people successfully doing these dungeons then? Why is it so easy for some, and seemingly impossible for others. I think there is a very easy answer to that. Some players are unprepared. That isn't a bad thing. That is something that should motivate them to do better.
You can do it too, trust me.
Players that are farming CR over and over are not some elitist superstars like you think. This game is not something that demands superstar play-styles.
Instead of coming here asking for an easy button, why not just ask for help? Many players, including myself, would be happy to help you.
I want to answer this clearly because you just aren't getting it.
You say that I am trying to "brag and keep content to myself".
No, I just don't want you (and others) to waste the developers' time (again) making content even more trivialized (and balancing classes again and again and again and again), when we would be way better off if they just focused on releasing more dungeons each module.
By the way, there is absolutely no content in this game that is worth bragging rights, not even CR. Also, (this part is my opinion) there is no use in bragging about a video game, you are just using your brain (a little bit) and moving your fingers.
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lukejones77Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 282Arc User
Guys, just quit the game if u find it tedious. There are better game out there that are more balanced and content friendly. Let the people that wanna feel exclusive play with themselves. Problem has been brought up, ideas has been given. There is no point to further discuss when there are people that doesnt want to share the content with us. I already felt stupid for buying zen to support this game when I 1st played this game. Cant join a game because I wanna play archer? I wonder how many people is gonna fell victim to the meta in the future, Like gwf, archer used to be fotm. Just saying.
This.
You can play a great D&D MMO without having to play this one. Much more balanced, and much more friendly.
1st of, that statement is for Fab and not for hardcorer that don't share his opinion on the content should be exclusive thing. If u don't share that opinion then don't bother.
I am trying my best to interpret that quote, but I am unable to translate that.
2nd, Simple as it may be but if u did not get your facts in, u are still bringing in pointless argument. You see, i dont know why u people keep saying that i ask to dumb down chess. If u read closely to my suggestion, I merely ask that the game provide the option for both tic tac toe and chess so both parties gets to play their own game. If the Dev creates a third game that looks like chess but simple as tictactoe, then bring that up to them. Thats not my idea?
3rd, Its not for us to decide how the resources are spend. Although, from my point of view, the point of MMO is to gather as many player as they could to keep the game going. For if its worthwhile or not, its up to the company to decides not us. We do not have the information on the resources or the power to manage to say otherwise.
This ^ is exactly why Castle Ravenloft is soooo "difficult" for some players...
At the end of the day, you need to realize that ZERO content in Neverwinter is actually exclusive. Players might exclude some people who don't know what they are doing, but that is not the developers' fault. The game does not demand that much from it's players. I wish that it did demand more from it's players.
You shouldn't feel excluded from content. I promise you, with a little bit of effort, you can really shine in Neverwinter. It is one of the easiest things that I have ever focused on, in my entire life. This is just a video game, and it is already one of the easier ones.
You are obviously oblivious to the things people said. Therefore there is little to talk about. Wish u best in your endeavor.
I have seen games that have multi difficulty option and I don't see it hinder player from progression? If u think content is too easy for you, just ask the developer to make it harder. As long as more casuals player are given options to pick their preference of difficulty, all is well. I don't see why casuals and hardcore player cant co-exist in this game. Other games are fine.
@kangkeok Casuals and "hardcore" players can co-exist in this game. However, at the moment, there is nothing that "hardcore" players get rewarded with. None of the content in this game (including CR) requires "hardcore" play-style, as you suggest. I know that you believe it does, because you are struggling with it, but it doesn't. There is ZERO content which requires you to play this way. Most people that run CR regularly are not sitting in Discord making call-outs. They are falling asleep grinding the dungeon over and over. That is boring, and completely counterproductive towards the further endorsement of this game from it's most dedicated player-base.
Don't confuses me here with people that are asking to make current content easy. I m here to suggest multi difficulty option so everyone with different difficulty preference could play. Get ur fact straight.
An easy-mode option is not a viable method of promoting motivation towards progression in this game. Motivation (to overcome exclusion, for example) is key component Neverwinter's success or failure. If you don't understand that, based on their business model, I suggest you read into that. I really don't want to spend the time explaining that here.
U need to spend time to do some research on multi difficulty option in other game instead, before u give such an ignorant comment. I mean multi difficulty option isn't something that are invented by me. It has been a thing in so many MMO like dragon nest, DDO and etc. Player are spending money to progress in those game. Its a proven concept.
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checkmatein3Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 525Arc User
edited September 2018
This thread is rather confusing, even though I have read every post. I would like to add a completely different perspective, that sort of goes into a third direction. It is not about challenging end-game content, nor about normal or master level dungeons, nor about class balance. Perhaps this suggestion has been made before, in this thread or another. If so, I apologize.
One of the best things I liked about Neverwinter when I started playing in 2013 was the manner in which the dungeons linked in progression. Each dungeon dropped a full piece of gear, that you would need in order to 'advance' to the next stage. T1 dungeons dropped T1 gear, T2 dropped T2 and so on (dread vault excepted, but I still loved that dungeon). The campaign progression up to the point of the dungeon would get that person able to play the lowest dungeons, and then, after running with guild mates or friends through an agreed upon drop (I remember the problems with this...I am not suggesting a return to this), you could start to progress. Items were completely unbound, so you could sell the dropped gear (this changed in Malabog and Dread Ring) for real AD, and perhaps bypass the advancement with AD (pay to go faster). Generally speaking, advancement through the campaign prepared you to run the lowest dungeons, followed by the higher dungeons later. Then, end game content was linear, or a matter of going back and targetting that one area that you still wanted for improvement.
The problem I see with Neverwinter now is an inconsistent and variable reward system in relation to dungeon progression. The matter is incredibly complex and confusing. On the one hand, if you get into a Barovia hunt (getting even good gear from the 250 barovia coin box), you can immediately farm 540 IL gear and have a decent Artifact MH and OH with Vistani from the campaign. Also, if you farm River District Heroics OR Dread Ring OR any demonic (never done alone), you can farm decent rings for your character. So, opening certain campaigns speeds up the process. You can gear up on SOME things that readily available. You can proceed through all the campaigns linearly, going from the easiest to the hardest to get the boons and increase your abilities in a party. But the issue is that the dungeons are no longer part of the progression. Some dungeons over-reward based on the cost IN TIME to run. Get a more BIS group, go faster, get more drops. Hit the 100k AD limit faster, and then...twiddle your thumbs. Sometimes you get drops that you can sell. Sometimes you get blue insignia that you can use to get mount bonuses. Events provide epic mounts. Dungeons sometimes drop companions and artifacts. But the thing is, none of it is linear. For some things, you need 5 mounts with 5 bonuses and good bonding stones on a companion that is adequately geared and levelled up. The thing is, the fast way to get these is through zen and/or Lockbox opening. The long route is via RNG or the 100k max. But still, there is no logical progression.
And because there is no linear progression in campaigns, you can skip around to the part that gives you the most bang for you buck (or time). And then, because you are in those areas, like Barovia doing hunts with 540 gear, if you are newer player, you might think its time to try out...that new dungeon. Because the whole game is not linear, the expectation is NOT linear. The only thing that seems to be linear is: the newest dungeon will be the HARDEST. So, non linear game progression with LINEAR dungeon difficult equals a mess. Its like jumping a line that is moving faster, only to find at the end a big black hole that sucks in the line. But the alternative is to wait and do it the long way OR, as I think the whole stategy is, pay to get those little amenities that will complete the build faster.
So, even though my suggestion is NOT perfect, I would like to see a return to LINEAR PROGRESSION in the entirety of the campaigns and dungeons. If one creates the expectation of improvement by non linear game instances in campaigns, and then has LINEAR dungeon difficulty, the results are exactly what one sees in this thread.
I have little hope that this would happen, and I very much expect disagreement on this point. But the fun of the original design was that you actually were prepared for the next dungeon up because you had completed the previous ones. It made sense.
This thread is rather confusing, even though I have read every post. I would like to add a completely different perspective, that sort of goes into a third direction. It is not about challenging end-game content, nor about normal or master level dungeons, nor about class balance. Perhaps this suggestion has been made before, in this thread or another. If so, I apologize.
One of the best things I liked about Neverwinter when I started playing in 2013 was the manner in which the dungeons linked in progression. Each dungeon dropped a full piece of gear, that you would need in order to 'advance' to the next stage. T1 dungeons dropped T1 gear, T2 dropped T2 and so on (dread vault excepted, but I still loved that dungeon). The campaign progression up to the point of the dungeon would get that person able to play the lowest dungeons, and then, after running with guild mates or friends through an agreed upon drop (I remember the problems with this...I am not suggesting a return to this), you could start to progress. Items were completely unbound, so you could sell the dropped gear (this changed in Malabog and Dread Ring) for real AD, and perhaps bypass the advancement with AD (pay to go faster). Generally speaking, advancement through the campaign prepared you to run the lowest dungeons, followed by the higher dungeons later. Then, end game content was linear, or a matter of going back and targetting that one area that you still wanted for improvement.
The problem I see with Neverwinter now is an inconsistent and variable reward system in relation to dungeon progression. The matter is incredibly complex and confusing. On the one hand, if you get into a Barovia hunt (getting even good gear from the 250 barovia coin box), you can immediately farm 540 IL gear and have a decent Artifact MH and OH with Vistani from the campaign. Also, if you farm River District Heroics OR Dread Ring OR any demonic (never done alone), you can farm decent rings for your character. So, opening certain campaigns speeds up the process. You can gear up on SOME things that readily available. You can proceed through all the campaigns linearly, going from the easiest to the hardest to get the boons and increase your abilities in a party. But the issue is that the dungeons are no longer part of the progression. Some dungeons over-reward based on the cost IN TIME to run. Get a more BIS group, go faster, get more drops. Hit the 100k AD limit faster, and then...twiddle your thumbs. Sometimes you get drops that you can sell. Sometimes you get blue insignia that you can use to get mount bonuses. Events provide epic mounts. Dungeons sometimes drop companions and artifacts. But the thing is, none of it is linear. For some things, you need 5 mounts with 5 bonuses and good bonding stones on a companion that is adequately geared and levelled up. The thing is, the fast way to get these is through zen and/or Lockbox opening. The long route is via RNG or the 100k max. But still, there is no logical progression.
And because there is no linear progression in campaigns, you can skip around to the part that gives you the most bang for you buck (or time). And then, because you are in those areas, like Barovia doing hunts with 540 gear, if you are newer player, you might think its time to try out...that new dungeon. Because the whole game is not linear, the expectation is NOT linear. The only thing that seems to be linear is: the newest dungeon will be the HARDEST. So, non linear game progression with LINEAR dungeon difficult equals a mess. Its like jumping a line that is moving faster, only to find at the end a big black hole that sucks in the line. But the alternative is to wait and do it the long way OR, as I think the whole stategy is, pay to get those little amenities that will complete the build faster.
So, even though my suggestion is NOT perfect, I would like to see a return to LINEAR PROGRESSION in the entirety of the campaigns and dungeons. If one creates the expectation of improvement by non linear game instances in campaigns, and then has LINEAR dungeon difficulty, the results are exactly what one sees in this thread.
I have little hope that this would happen, and I very much expect disagreement on this point. But the fun of the original design was that you actually were prepared for the next dungeon up because you had completed the previous ones. It made sense.
I am loving this, not too long ago us SW were bleating about being irrelevant and now we are (yay for me) then there was a rage over how overpowered the GWF's are and not the problem is OP and DC - roll on into infinity.
I will just add that progression is still a thing, or it should be. I am finally able to complete FBI and Spellplague which was near impossible for me some months back - I feel elated that I have progressed. Now I am focussing on TO9G and Cradle and have left Castle Ravenloft as a long term goal. Surely this is what gaming is about? Getting better and better?
Anyway - I will concur though that OP is by far the easiest class to level up - I took my lvl 10k to lvl14 in no time as I always get a run and am near immortal for most of it, this profits me tons of loot, way quicker than my SW or CW
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therealprotexMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 526Arc User
@therealprotex Answer me something, so that your comment starts to make sense.
What makes SS Thaumaturge more fun to play than SS Oppressor?
The only real difference is Spell Twisting, and you can take that as a SS Oppressor without completely breaking your build. You just won't be as effective.
Hmm, are you married? Why did you marry that woman? Where other women are more beautiful, more lovely, more adorable, more sucessful, richer, more famous? Why that woman? The answer may not be exactly the same but it may give you an idea about the reason why I like SS Thauma more than any other recommended builds of @thefabricant 's document. I tried them all, but none of them makes more fun to me than the SS Thauma build. *shrug*
You said "my CW is shunned solely for the reason that he is not a build that elitists as you want him to be", and that isn't true. If you were playing well people would notice and they wouldn't exclude you from their groups. That is just how things are (not only in this video game), you can't form an argument against that. If you play well, people will invite you back.
Responding to that last part, we are here [along with the other discussion] posting examples (evidence) of our claims. More importantly, go watch a couple decent videos (yourself) on YouTube and you will clearly see how much this game has been trivialized. You are simply coming here complaining that some content is too tough for you. You are offering nothing more than "I'm struggling, I want an easy button".
Which one of us is expressing only our opinion?
And here you are wrong. I am not asking for an easy button. I do not think that the content is too hard for me and I never said that. I have run end content many times with guildies and alliancies. That is not my point. My point is that it is nearly impossible to find a group for end game content if you type "SS Thauma CW 16.3 lfg CR" in PE lfg chat or in certain custom channels. You are right, people who know me and the way I play do invite me. But in lfg chats and/or certain custom channels people do not know me and they do not take the risk of taking a SS Thauma CW because they "know" that this build sucks dps-wise against a GWF or HR of the same "size". A MoF is a totally different story as a MoF does not take the slot of a dps but of a support char.
Let me ask you, why do you want to play ultra hard and challenging content? For the challenge itself? For the better rewards? Seriously, I am interested in a good reason why the suggested system (like barovian hunts, basic content, increasing difficulty by adding additional and optional challenges) does not fit your demands.
No, that isn't the point. I am not going to sit here and discuss the various models of monetization that various games utilize, and how they have to structure their players experience respectively in that model. That is for you to learn yourself. That also is not a huge topic in this discussion.
The huge topic is this...
Players are coming to these forums actually trying to make an argument that Neverwinter is somehow too difficult. There is even a discussion that FBI is somehow too difficult. That is absurd.
How are there so many people successfully doing these dungeons then? Why is it so easy for some, and seemingly impossible for others. I think there is a very easy answer to that. Some players are unprepared. That isn't a bad thing. That is something that should motivate them to do better.
You can do it too, trust me.
Players that are farming CR over and over are not some elitist superstars like you think. This game is not something that demands superstar play-styles.
Instead of coming here asking for an easy button, why not just ask for help? Many players, including myself, would be happy to help you.
I want to answer this clearly because you just aren't getting it.
You say that I am trying to "brag and keep content to myself".
No, I just don't want you (and others) to waste the developers' time (again) making content even more trivialized (and balancing classes again and again and again and again), when we would be way better off if they just focused on releasing more dungeons each module.
By the way, there is absolutely no content in this game that is worth bragging rights, not even CR. Also, (this part is my opinion) there is no use in bragging about a video game, you are just using your brain (a little bit) and moving your fingers.
I am not arguing for changing existing dungeons, I agree to you (maybe for other reasons, maybe not) that this would be absurd. All I say is that now there is a good chance to change the way new dungeons work. You can say what you want but the complains about the barovian hunting system are few to not existent. Everyone and their mother likes this system. and its real potential is barely tapped. If I had any saying in Neverwinter's development, I'd move the resources away from creating the classic dungeons and towards this new mechanic that is largely liked by the playerbase. And I still can not see a single sense-making argument that would speak against this idea.
Btw, my apologies for imputing this attitude to you. Your answers clearly show that you are not that kind of person and I am sorry that I made these false assumptions.
Comments
Firstly.
Dungeons := Why could they not have a tier system for each dungeon. The entry level for CR is 13k.However we all know that a 13k gruop is NOT going to clear it. So why not, for example, make current CR 16k and above, whilst providing a slightly easier one for 13 to 15.999k players. This will make the non BIS crowd happy.
Secondly.
Seals := You have to run the dungeons to get seals to get gear. This system is very slow..31 succesful runs of CR in order to get all the gear for 1 toon. Again why not have the gear in the end chest. At least then there may be a point to running the dungeon.
As for the points raised in many of the posts above, I would love to help my guildies run some of the better content, but find it hard to explain to them that they are potentially not geared enough for that content, even though they have the required item level. Or infact that they have chosen the wrong class to main.
I had 3 guildies leave the game totally last week because they became stuck with running the same dungeons over and over again for little or no reward.
I never claimed I was good at social interactions, in fact, I will openly admit I am bad at them, but you are deluding yourself if you think I am bad at problem solving. Just because I do not agree with the solution (or even the problem for that matter) you propose. How do you think the optimal way to do stuff gets found?
Problem = find most efficient way to run content.
Solution = do this.
This is what I do. That is not what you are doing. What you are doing is inventing a new problem to solve your own, which is not the right way to go. You presented your perspective, it clashes with mine. Now, stop trying to force the same "solution" to the problem when it is clearly flawed and is the root cause of disagreement.
And no, tiered content won't work out well, as already pointed out, but I will summarize again why:
1) It takes up a lot of development time to do correctly, since some mechanics do not scale up/down well. There are 2 types of difficulty, artificial difficulty and designed difficulty. Artificial being when the content is hard because you just raised or lowered some numbers and designed is hard because the content was implicitly made with mechanics that challenge the player. In general, the first is not fun or engaging and the second is fun and engaging. There is no way to scale down the second type to players who want easier content, it is, by its nature implicitly difficult and the first type is unsatisfying. That leaves the only recourse as designing different content for different players.
2) Players will always run the content with the best AD per hour ratio. If the easier version gives better rewards then the harder version, guess what gets cut out. This happens in pretty much every game I have played with tiered content as well.
How about instead of asking that all content be made available to you (which obviously comes at the expense of someone else's enjoyment) you ask for something specific to be developed towards your particular tastes. Nothing is stopping you from doing so, but asking for everything to be for you is obviously going to be met with resistance because it is taking something away from someone else in the process.
Party composition,game difficulty,player mentality ,gaming behaviour definition.
One affects the other and all together each one and all at the same time.
I play the game since the start,joining novemeber 2013.I do not think the game was in worse state and even more alarming is the fact that fellow veteran players think the game is going ok.
Party composition and meta:
People like one of my old guildies , tend to use as an argument that was a time that 5 cw parties were the meta.Yet forgets to say that you COULD DO ENDGAME CONTENT WITH EVERY OTHER CLASS back then.
You can not do CR in gaming realistically time with out a DC and an OP.That is the difference right now.Two classes are absolute must to FINISH THE DAMN content .This was not the case in the past.
So as concerning party composition game is way worse than mod2.
Game difficulty:
game difficulty is directly affected by the presense of the two classes DC and OP.You have 2 DCs at 15+ K and one OP?One way or another you will finish CR.
You have one GF,one Dev OP and 3 DPS and you want to do CR in same time as the previous combo?GL
DC and OP provide a great number of buffs and at the same time provide the best mitigation while they are-if properly played-immortal.
This was not the case in the past.
Player mentality/gaming behaviour:
This is rather really simple to explain:the guys that play DC and OP protect the curent system and find it "balanced".or to better add,and the guys that have in their FL a lot of the above category players.
It is simple human behaviour:they have a great time now,they finish the content first of all,get the new toys and with less time make the most AD.As simple as that.Why to lose that ,cause kangkeok or Wizzard or Pterias want things to be balanced?
They want their cookies easy time.
--------
What needs to be done?
Revert the Do changes,cap aura of courage,cap OP temp hp,balance the OP pets (razorwood etc) ,remove buff stacking from pets.
That would be a nice start and we would go back to one DC per party,or at least trhe difference would not be so great between the parties with two DCs vs parties with one DC.
OP buffing and survivability needs to be toned down ,or better,to avoid a nerf rage,introduce abilities in bosses that prevent OPs from endless temp HPs ( like demogorgon did)
-------------
These from me.I also encourage guys to not get intimidate to express their views in the forums.
Cheers.
I read the second and the third page.
The sides are not so clearly defined as you described,at least from what I read on.
I think some people strive for a change ,while others ,fortify themselves on the thesis that there will always be a meta and you must adopt it,or get good,or get geared etc.
It is not so generic.Be good,will not make you finish CR unless you have a circle of DC and OP friends,to draw them to form a party.Bea good TR at 17k but having only poor DPS ,or Gf s as friends will make you spend your gaming time in hunts...
The elephant in the room is the DC and the OP.other classes have their issues aswell,but these two affect a wide area of the game.
This is not a nerf request,if Do changes are undone ,DC will remain the n1 wanted class.
As for OP I have said it in the past ,there is no salavation for that class ,it was deemed broken from day one,by design.tanking through damage done.
To avoid the nerf rage ,devs should adapt the content around OPs abilities,and leave the class relatively untouched.
For the other parts we agree.
Cheers
As for altering design difficulty for easier versions, if it's even relevant at all, could take the form of novel conveniences like a campfire at the bottom of the elevator in Cradle for example. IMO, designed difficulty features shouldn't be taken away. Being able to focus on the mechanics in a more forgiving numbers (and party comp) environment is kinda the point, to me anyway. I can sympathize with your concern here. This would definitely need to be handled properly. However, if a "normal" version of, say, CR only gave T2 rewards (brave seals, no UES, etc.), while the T3 "master" CR gave its current rewards, isn't that already the relationship between CR and the other T2 dungeons? I don't see how it would really change the dynamic.
Also, if you de-couple dungeons from their difficulty and we can have a "normal" and a "master" version of the same dungeon, the silver lining there is that there's very little preventing a "legendary" version too! Up all the monsters to lvl 74, double the HP, double the drops, and good friggin' luck! Throwing that into the pot seems like it would truly make this a win for all parties involved.
So that's my revised proposal for variable dungeons: "Normal", "Master" (current level), and "Legendary". Something for everyone.
This is the point that you are missing. Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude, but you specifically said "elites sometime takes their times off challenging content". By the way, you can throw the word "elite" around all you want. I don't want to spend the time explaining the misunderstanding there, again.
This is an MMO. Progress is measured in years, not days or months. End-game is meant to be played at end-game. Unfortunately, yes. I am not saying you mean to do this. However, the hardest content in this game is already very trivial. Adjusting end-game content (to be any easier) would ruin the rare instances of fun that many players experience who seek a challenge.
There is much more content for a "casual player" than there is for a "hardcore player" in Neverwinter right now. There isn't a single argument that can stand a chance against that.
There is nothing wrong with being lazy. There is nothing wrong with refusing to learn mechanics in a video game. However, a "spoiled player" who complains about difficulty is just that, spoiled and complaining. You can't turn the blame around on others.
This may not be an educational quote, but this is spot on...
“There is no point in using the word 'impossible' to describe something that has clearly happened.” (Douglas Adams)
That is not what people are saying here. All the content in Neverwinter is easily manageable by all players. When you get to that point where you are falling asleep behind the wheel (auto walking into the corner, snoring into your mic), running the hardest content in the game, I promise you will understand what some people are talking about here.
^ Hi Kazcadski ^
<blockquote class="UserQuote">
I never encountered so much elitism as under this thread. I really feel sorry for you guys as you are figthing to keep your virtual muscles to be the biggest in the game and to keep everyone out of your backyard.
Nobody has virtual muscles. We are talking about a video game here, it isn't rocket science. Playing well, or bad, isn't anything to be proud of, or ashamed of respectively. Clearly, as you acknowledged earlier, some of the people posting here have already done very significant work for the Neverwinter community. If you take a look at that stuff, it is exactly the opposite of what you are describing. All that work (from some of these "elitist" players) helps people become included that infamous "backyard" you speak of, not excluded from it.
Maybe, I am mistaken about who you are speaking to. If not however, then you are just misinterpreting the point here. I don't mean you disrespect with that, but clearly this is [at the very least] what is going on here:
"Casual" Player: One piece of the content is so hard that a won't be able to play it for a long time.
"Hardcore" Player: I have basically zero content.
Who is actually the one getting ripped off there? ^
Honestly, I can't speak for @thefabricant (who you are talking to here), but I am personally here trying to avoid making a problem worse. People who have invested the most time, effort, and/or money in the game should have something available for them. Please seriously read that point just above your quote here. Think about what is going on here. You might feel excluded from some content, others feel like they have none.
Please, explain yourself here. Specifically, which class is unable to finish CR? Again, please read the quote I posted above from Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency's, Douglas Adams. I wouldn't try to argue that something is impossible after it has clearly happened. No, this discussion is about dungeon difficulty not all that composition talk from the other thread. As I said over there, I am fine with buffs to durability and damage being nerfed. That wouldn't be a problem. The content would be more difficult if those things received significant nerfs. However, I am guessing that you will come back here [the forums], after those nerfs, and complain that the content is now harder (or impossible). In that case, you will just be shooting yourself in the foot, and I will be watching. 0_0
Remember there is only a given amount of time that will go into developing Neverwinter moving forward...
Do we need more content?
OR
Do we need class balancing again?
I do not understand what you are saying here. TRs have excellent DPS. They are very viable for CR and any content, even at ILs well under 16/17K.
Just to be clear @kangkeok , pterias , @wizardlvl80#5963 , and @hypervoreian , I don't want to disrespect any of you. I just hope that you can see the difference between "I can't do some content yet" and "I have zero content". The latter is much more troubling in my opinion.
I truly believe that you don't see how your points are further hindering our chances of having any enjoyable content in the future. I don't blame you for that, but please understand that we have nothing challenging. We are simply asking for maybe 1 or 2 pieces of content to run (each mod) that is enjoyable for our play-style (or whatever you want to call it). We aren't asking for all content to be enjoyable, as you are.
How is it that my point there hinder your chances of having enjoyable content in the future? I m merely suggesting that people that like hard content should have hard content while the people that prefer easier content should have them too. With that, i dont see my suggestion are hindering people that like hard content from getting hard content.
What I read from your comment suggest that u did not fully follow our conversation here. If not u would have known that. Although, I do against people that are trying to have content exclusively for themselves which are the problem here. If you are not that type of people so why bother? I m merely speaking to those people that do.
U need to be clear with everyone stand point here before u post or you are making things complicated with a wall of pointless text. I hope you are not trying to argue just because u wanna argue or trying to create further drama because u are bored. Anyway, I have agreed with jase suggestion there so I really don't see any point to argue things that already been address.
Maybe you guys should travel back one page in this discussion and read my post about having 6 different [tiered] dungeons available each module release. It seems you clearly missed that.
The problem here is...
There is nothing wrong with some players not being ready for content. That is the very thing that motivates players to further develop their characters, knowledge of the game, and play-style. It seems that some players here feel that all people should have access to all content, at all times. If that were the case, Neverwinter wouldn't have a single piece of content that would motivate players to progress towards. Cryptic wouldn't make as much money. As much as you might hate that idea, that is what allows you (if you are) to play the game totally for free.
All players should not be playing all content. Players should need to progress to a point before entering a content that demands a level of progress. Obviously, as it is now, all types of players have access to all content. You don't need to be a hardcore player to run Castle Ravenloft. It can be done casually, quite easily. All you need is to do is progress to a certain point, and you will be laughing at that dungeon.
There should be content for everyone. Currently, there isn't. If you have taken the time to learn all of the classes in Neverwinter and fine-tuned your character, you have absolutely zero content. The hardest stuff in this game is an absolute joke for a good group. How is that a bad thing? There are plenty of pieces of content for players that are not at end-game. Additionally, at the moment, there is no end-game content. I just saw a friend of mine kill Strahd from full HP to dead in about 3 seconds. He was 14K IL. Sure, the sunsword is OP. Seriously though? In Neverwinter's current state, 14K IL player can steam roll the final boss in the "hardest" content of the game?
That is a complete joke. ^
The main problem is that players are locked out of content not because they did not progress their character enough, but because they play a certain class with a certain build. The best (in terms of most progressed) Spellstorm-Thauma-CW will have a hatd time to find a group for Ravenloft outside his guild and friend list. Yes, I know, everyone has seen Spellstorm-Thauma-CWs running CR, but single instances do not make a trend.
The suggestions in this thread would be possible solutions for this problem. They would benefit all kind of players and hence, the game itself. And unless you want to promote elite thinking ("Lo and behold, I am one of the best meta-matching chars, I have the sun-weapon set and can run CR in under 5 minutes! And YOU CAN NOT! Muahahaha!"), there is actually no reason to insist on your "All players should not be playing all content".
it's also good to have a training ground for new super hard dungeons.
some people will never have the means to be end game. My attempt to move over to pc taught that to me very clearly. as a reasonably well off xbox player it just never occurred to me how hard starting over would really be. I did it on ps4 and was ok but it was a new system with a new economy. where everyone was at the same place. a newer player coming into an already established economy is at an extreme disadvantage. oh i'm sure if I stuck with it eventually I'd be end game. but the controls were also unwieldy. so these new end game dungeons are pretty much fugetaboutit. I don't think there is anyway in hell I'd have been able to ever stick to the platform in codg in pc EVER..
yet I'm sure I'm not the only one. lots of handicapped people play. lots of people who aren't terribly dexterous with their hands, like me. N versions make it possible for most everyone to having something new to do. something new to strive for.
you need those new people to stay in the game and not get discouraged or the game will die. the bar is incredibly high at the moment.
it may not seem like it to many who aren't newer to the game because they've gotten used to the boiling water.. but other people stick their toes in and go OMGDATSFUGGINGHOT.
everyone wants the new and shiny. if there is no new and shiny carrot to aim for they will pack up and head to a new game that will give them something shiny.
the bar is just so high right now that it's not even a realistic thing to aim for. For a lot of people its like an impossibility to them and kind of rightly so. but if you give them a bone.. something they can aim for they then have the thing to work to get better for and thus salvage the desire to remain in this game. the n version should still be hard for them but maybe a cake walk for an elite.
There really are two tiers of players in neverwinter. I've known both sides. there is a huge contingent of people who are happy where they're at. hanging with friends not worrying about best gear and they do get bored with what they have. and there are people who want to be bis and the best and never the twain shall meet. I guess there is a third tier of people who are between those two continents.
but anyway, the point is you can please both of them. N and M dungeons..
it's a good thing
We have a combat system which has always been a lot of fun but unfortunately the design is and has been profoundly lacking. Difficulty isn’t making mobs have insane dps, or some other variation of being one rounded..nor is it some silly platform~y log roll gimmick(cradle).. and it’s absolutely not timing a buff window to create extreme dps. Sure that last parts an ingredient to good play but presently that the whole enchilada.
Personally, I long for the teamwork Eq instilled in players and the community it created. While I know that kind of fun is unrealistic in this paradigm it would be great to at least see a sliver of it in Nw
They dont want to exclude anyone. It is not like some rich ppl asking for higher property values, so they dont have to share their view with the rabble.
This is more like, some ppl play ticktacktoe and some ppl like playing chess. You can dumb down chess to a ticktacktoe level and still call it chess, but it will be ticktacktoe. A chess player would not want to play this version of 'chess', it would be boring. Chess players are not excluding the ticktacktoe players out of some kind of elitism. Everyone can learn to play chess.
The argument against tiered dungeon is, as far as I see it, that there is no way, to make chess ticktacktoe player friendly, so the Devs would have to create a third game, that looks like chess, but is as simple as ticktacktoe. While possible, it would leech at the resources of the company, just to make some players feel included, while in fact, they are still not able to play chess.
This might be an oversimplification of the problem, but might help some ppl understand the problem here.
2nd, Simple as it may be but if u did not get your facts in, u are still bringing in pointless argument. You see, i dont know why u people keep saying that i ask to dumb down chess. If u read closely to my suggestion, I merely ask that the game provide the option for both tic tac toe and chess so both parties gets to play their own game. If the Dev creates a third game that looks like chess but simple as tictactoe, then bring that up to them. Thats not my idea?
3rd, Its not for us to decide how the resources are spend. Although, from my point of view, the point of MMO is to gather as many player as they could to keep the game going. For if its worthwhile or not, its up to the company to decides not us. We do not have the information on the resources or the power to manage to say otherwise.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Then what is your argument? The people that are failing at Castle Ravenloft are not failing because of their gear. I have done runs with plenty of people under 15K IL. They have no problems. Most of them have already completed it (on a main) so they understand the mechanics. That is the important thing to understand here...
People are not failing to complete content due to the developers' actions. They are failing to complete content because they are failing to learn enough about what they are doing, and what they should do better. The end-game material in this game is not mechanically difficult, but some players refuse to learn the mechanics of their class, other classes, synergies, and the content which they are playing.
This quote makes it entirely clear that you are not in a position to talk about this game's end-game content. Anyone that has followed and adapted to the changes of the game will understand what I mean here. What is so important about playing Thaumaturge? Why not play something better like SS Oppressor? Do you get some extra personal enjoyment out of Elemental Empowerment or Assailing Force happening?
SS CWs have absolutely no problem clearing a CR in a decent time. They are completely welcome in groups. As I said somewhere else, a SS CW cleared CR in a decent time before the dungeon even hit the live server.
You could play a Scoundrel WK TR too, and complain that you can't find groups for PvE. What does that say? It says that you need to learn more about the game. It doesn't say that some content needs to have an easier option.
No, making an "easy" version of every piece of content in a F2P (micro-transaction model) game would not benefit everyone. If you really think it would, I suggest you do some research about that. Also, you should maybe edit out that comment about the "sun-weapons" that is just another example of you not understanding what you are talking about. There is no hatred or flaming in that last statement, but I think you should have at least a basic understanding of "end-game" Neverwinter before commenting about it.
@kangkeok
Casuals and "hardcore" players can co-exist in this game. However, at the moment, there is nothing that "hardcore" players get rewarded with. None of the content in this game (including CR) requires "hardcore" play-style, as you suggest. I know that you believe it does, because you are struggling with it, but it doesn't. There is ZERO content which requires you to play this way. Most people that run CR regularly are not sitting in Discord making call-outs. They are falling asleep grinding the dungeon over and over. That is boring, and completely counterproductive towards the further endorsement of this game from it's most dedicated player-base.
An easy-mode option is not a viable method of promoting motivation towards progression in this game. Motivation (to overcome exclusion, for example) is key component Neverwinter's success or failure. If you don't understand that, based on their business model, I suggest you read into that. I really don't want to spend the time explaining that here.
@kriptical1
I fully agree with most of this, actually. The problem is (and I truly wish this wasn't the case) is that this type of team work (I think) that you are calling for is impossible for most Neverwinter players. I honestly would enjoy dungeons that demanded more coordination, but if players are already struggling with this what we have, there is no hope for that being possible.
We would have players coming here (to the forums) saying, I don't have a mic. I am feeling excluded, for example...
At the end of the day, at least we have buff-window coordination, but I agree, that shouldn't be the "whole enchilada".
@asterotg
I could not have made a better analogy. That was awesome. Well said, and I fully agree with you.
I am trying my best to interpret that quote, but I am unable to translate that. This ^ is exactly why Castle Ravenloft is soooo "difficult" for some players...
At the end of the day, you need to realize that ZERO content in Neverwinter is actually exclusive. Players might exclude some people who don't know what they are doing, but that is not the developers' fault. The game does not demand that much from it's players. I wish that it did demand more from it's players.
You shouldn't feel excluded from content. I promise you, with a little bit of effort, you can really shine in Neverwinter. It is one of the easiest things that I have ever focused on, in my entire life. This is just a video game, and it is already one of the easier ones.
I was wrong, your attitude does not disqualify you to talk about end-game content, actually it disqualifies you to discuss any game-related stuff here, because you take your opinion as a hard fact that must not be discussed.
Captain Arrogance around the corner again. *sigh* Your opinion is just that, an opinion. It is nether the only one and surely not the only relevant. And as long as you back it up with pseudo arguments only ("do some research"), it is even the least relevant. Logic dictates that the game benefits the most from a state where the majority of players is content. With the barovian hunting system applied to future dungeons this state can easily be reached. Period.
Holding on to a state as it is now only proves that your point is not the difficulty for hardcore players, your point is to have something that other can not have. Your point is to brag that you can do something that others can not do. Your point is to maintain the elitism that is so harmful for this game.
Answer me something, so that your comment starts to make sense.
What makes SS Thaumaturge more fun to play than SS Oppressor?
The only real difference is Spell Twisting, and you can take that as a SS Oppressor without completely breaking your build. You just won't be as effective.
If you are saying that your build is doing awesome damage, and no other CWs can step up to you, I am happy to accept a challenge. I love challenges.
You said "my CW is shunned solely for the reason that he is not a build that elitists as you want him to be", and that isn't true. If you were playing well people would notice and they wouldn't exclude you from their groups. That is just how things are (not only in this video game), you can't form an argument against that. If you play well, people will invite you back.
Responding to that last part, we are here [along with the other discussion] posting examples (evidence) of our claims. More importantly, go watch a couple decent videos (yourself) on YouTube and you will clearly see how much this game has been trivialized. You are simply coming here complaining that some content is too tough for you. You are offering nothing more than "I'm struggling, I want an easy button".
Which one of us is expressing only our opinion? No, that isn't the point. I am not going to sit here and discuss the various models of monetization that various games utilize, and how they have to structure their players experience respectively in that model. That is for you to learn yourself. That also is not a huge topic in this discussion.
The huge topic is this...
Players are coming to these forums actually trying to make an argument that Neverwinter is somehow too difficult. There is even a discussion that FBI is somehow too difficult. That is absurd.
How are there so many people successfully doing these dungeons then? Why is it so easy for some, and seemingly impossible for others. I think there is a very easy answer to that. Some players are unprepared. That isn't a bad thing. That is something that should motivate them to do better.
You can do it too, trust me.
Players that are farming CR over and over are not some elitist superstars like you think. This game is not something that demands superstar play-styles.
Instead of coming here asking for an easy button, why not just ask for help? Many players, including myself, would be happy to help you.
I want to answer this clearly because you just aren't getting it.
You say that I am trying to "brag and keep content to myself".
No, I just don't want you (and others) to waste the developers' time (again) making content even more trivialized (and balancing classes again and again and again and again), when we would be way better off if they just focused on releasing more dungeons each module.
By the way, there is absolutely no content in this game that is worth bragging rights, not even CR. Also, (this part is my opinion) there is no use in bragging about a video game, you are just using your brain (a little bit) and moving your fingers.
You can play a great D&D MMO without having to play this one. Much more balanced, and much more friendly.
One of the best things I liked about Neverwinter when I started playing in 2013 was the manner in which the dungeons linked in progression. Each dungeon dropped a full piece of gear, that you would need in order to 'advance' to the next stage. T1 dungeons dropped T1 gear, T2 dropped T2 and so on (dread vault excepted, but I still loved that dungeon). The campaign progression up to the point of the dungeon would get that person able to play the lowest dungeons, and then, after running with guild mates or friends through an agreed upon drop (I remember the problems with this...I am not suggesting a return to this), you could start to progress. Items were completely unbound, so you could sell the dropped gear (this changed in Malabog and Dread Ring) for real AD, and perhaps bypass the advancement with AD (pay to go faster). Generally speaking, advancement through the campaign prepared you to run the lowest dungeons, followed by the higher dungeons later. Then, end game content was linear, or a matter of going back and targetting that one area that you still wanted for improvement.
The problem I see with Neverwinter now is an inconsistent and variable reward system in relation to dungeon progression. The matter is incredibly complex and confusing. On the one hand, if you get into a Barovia hunt (getting even good gear from the 250 barovia coin box), you can immediately farm 540 IL gear and have a decent Artifact MH and OH with Vistani from the campaign. Also, if you farm River District Heroics OR Dread Ring OR any demonic (never done alone), you can farm decent rings for your character. So, opening certain campaigns speeds up the process. You can gear up on SOME things that readily available. You can proceed through all the campaigns linearly, going from the easiest to the hardest to get the boons and increase your abilities in a party. But the issue is that the dungeons are no longer part of the progression. Some dungeons over-reward based on the cost IN TIME to run. Get a more BIS group, go faster, get more drops. Hit the 100k AD limit faster, and then...twiddle your thumbs. Sometimes you get drops that you can sell. Sometimes you get blue insignia that you can use to get mount bonuses. Events provide epic mounts. Dungeons sometimes drop companions and artifacts. But the thing is, none of it is linear. For some things, you need 5 mounts with 5 bonuses and good bonding stones on a companion that is adequately geared and levelled up. The thing is, the fast way to get these is through zen and/or Lockbox opening. The long route is via RNG or the 100k max. But still, there is no logical progression.
And because there is no linear progression in campaigns, you can skip around to the part that gives you the most bang for you buck (or time). And then, because you are in those areas, like Barovia doing hunts with 540 gear, if you are newer player, you might think its time to try out...that new dungeon. Because the whole game is not linear, the expectation is NOT linear. The only thing that seems to be linear is: the newest dungeon will be the HARDEST. So, non linear game progression with LINEAR dungeon difficult equals a mess. Its like jumping a line that is moving faster, only to find at the end a big black hole that sucks in the line. But the alternative is to wait and do it the long way OR, as I think the whole stategy is, pay to get those little amenities that will complete the build faster.
So, even though my suggestion is NOT perfect, I would like to see a return to LINEAR PROGRESSION in the entirety of the campaigns and dungeons. If one creates the expectation of improvement by non linear game instances in campaigns, and then has LINEAR dungeon difficulty, the results are exactly what one sees in this thread.
I have little hope that this would happen, and I very much expect disagreement on this point. But the fun of the original design was that you actually were prepared for the next dungeon up because you had completed the previous ones. It made sense.
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
I will just add that progression is still a thing, or it should be. I am finally able to complete FBI and Spellplague which was near impossible for me some months back - I feel elated that I have progressed. Now I am focussing on TO9G and Cradle and have left Castle Ravenloft as a long term goal. Surely this is what gaming is about? Getting better and better?
Anyway - I will concur though that OP is by far the easiest class to level up - I took my lvl 10k to lvl14 in no time as I always get a run and am near immortal for most of it, this profits me tons of loot, way quicker than my SW or CW
Let me ask you, why do you want to play ultra hard and challenging content? For the challenge itself? For the better rewards? Seriously, I am interested in a good reason why the suggested system (like barovian hunts, basic content, increasing difficulty by adding additional and optional challenges) does not fit your demands. I am not arguing for changing existing dungeons, I agree to you (maybe for other reasons, maybe not) that this would be absurd. All I say is that now there is a good chance to change the way new dungeons work. You can say what you want but the complains about the barovian hunting system are few to not existent. Everyone and their mother likes this system. and its real potential is barely tapped. If I had any saying in Neverwinter's development, I'd move the resources away from creating the classic dungeons and towards this new mechanic that is largely liked by the playerbase. And I still can not see a single sense-making argument that would speak against this idea.
Btw, my apologies for imputing this attitude to you. Your answers clearly show that you are not that kind of person and I am sorry that I made these false assumptions.