Overall I could agree that not all the content should be for everyone. But with so little content released every mod (1 dungeon/trial) I can't agree. Look at how fast people are bored with running dong, craddle or cr. And now put yourself in the shoes of people who are damned to run CN, etos other old dungeons every day, every mod.
This is the main reason I am here posting, to be honest. We hardly have ANY new content released (each mod) and for some of us this content is trivial, while for others, it is too difficult. The solution for that isn't adjusting classes again and again and again, especially when (currently) every single class in welcome in runs, and tons of compositions/builds are already viable. There will always be "some kind of" optimal group composition.
Given that the developers only have so much time to work on things:
Rather than trying to balance classes again (how many times have we done that?), release more content that isn't "grindy" campaign quests. Most people can't wait to be finished with that (grindy campaigns) after the first few days anyways. Offer a variety of dungeons so that there is something for everyone to run and enjoy.
As much as I personally feel that all new content should be focused around "end-game" players, so that the game can retain their most committed player-base and offer the most incentive for self-progression (and Zen purchases lol), I will entertain everyone with a "happy medium" solution to try and exemplify what is important here (see below at the end of this post).
Imagine if each mod came with 6 dungeons, 1 EToS level, 2 MSP level, and 3 CR level. Make all the rewards scale well, and exclusive to that content. The market will level those prices out, even the "EToS level grinders" can have something exclusive that will sell for at least a bit. We need to avoid lower-tier dungeons being more profitable to run though, as stated by other players here. The "CR level people", they will be happy too. That being said, the "hardest" content is already too easy for many players. Therefore, since a variety is offered, make one or two of those MUCH more difficult to run than CR (and greatly more rewarding). The problem is solved, everyone gets new content, and all players are offered appropriate challenges, and appropriate rewards. This way, you can offer a challenge/new content to the "try-hards" and "casuals" at the same time. More importantly, we would get more content! Requesting exactly that, has been a super common theme among players who have been around for awhile (the die-hard Neverwinter fans).
By the way, the reason I spread them out like 1, 2, 3 is because there already TONS of content at the lower levels of progression. Additionally, all of the "top-tier" stuff will eventually be played by everyone and will remain "playable" longer. That is just common sense for the developers, in fact, the best case scenario would be 6 new "top-tier" dungeons. Again though, I am trying to offer some "happy medium" at the very least.
THIS is very important, please consider this as a reality.
You simply cannot change the fact that some players will spend countless hours outside of the game optimizing every little detail of everything. Seriously, you can't stop players from doing that. You shouldn't either, in my opinion. What is the problem with that? You also can't stop the fact that some people want to lay down in bed, chatting with friends, casually running content together, all without ever spending a second (outside of the game) researching their options for optimal character/group development. There is no reason to hinder either one of those players. Currently, the only one of those players that is hindered is the FIRST ONE (the "try-hards"). People that play this game, loosely put, to the fullest, have ZERO content to run. You need to have content that matches both of those types of players' desires. You can't do that with one dungeon, or one skirmish, no matter how much you adjust classes. The second type of player (the casual one), already has 7 different epic dungeons/skirmishes available to them.
With this "happy medium", "end-gamers" will finally have some content to run, rather than waiting for something tough enough to come out and thinking "maybe next mod" over and over. Additionally, players that feel like they are so behind that the "new" stuff is impossible for 3 mods will have something new to run!
Now, this is where I am attempting to "exemplify what is important here (see below at the end of this post)".
I hope everyone can see that adjusting (this or that) won't change the fact that players will continue to play how they wish. You can only way to satisfy a varied video game population with...varied content. This will mean that not all content will be appropriate for all players, at the time of release. So what? Everyone will get something new, and have something to work towards. You can't have a game where all content is equally completed by all players, not a single person would have motivation for progression. The developers of this game only have a certain amount of time to put towards improving Neverwinter. At the moment, we need more end-game content, we do. Some players are feeling like they can't handle the end-game content. If that is the case, watch some YouTube videos, read some guides, test some stuff, and learn how to play better. It really isn't that hard. People who are making the "hardest" content in this game look trivial are not gods, they aren't all-knowing or something. It really isn't that difficult. You can do it too!!!
Please, understand that adjusting classes (even if there is some slight imbalance) is not going to get you into end-game groups. More content however, will help everyone enjoy them game exponentially.
Other content in the game literally does not exist to me.
*snip*
I guess MSVA doesn't exist to you, either. But it does to a few other players. They would like to run it. But they can't because not enuff of them are on at the same time. And then the devs get the idea to help players get into unpopular content... Random queues. And the MSVA players rejoice! For about 10 seconds. And then the player that helped their queue pop disconnects. Because they are too "elite" to run that lowly content. They might be better players. But, as human beings, as well as gamers, they are HAMSTER.
Other content in the game literally does not exist to me.
*snip*
I guess MSVA doesn't exist to you, either. But it does to a few other players. They would like to run it. But they can't because not enuff of them are on at the same time. And then the devs get the idea to help players get into unpopular content... Random queues. And the MSVA players rejoice! For about 10 seconds. And then the player that helped their queue pop disconnects. Because they are too "elite" to run that lowly content. They might be better players. But, as human beings, as well as gamers, they are HAMSTER.
Errmm may i ask you why should someone with an maxed out char (regarding of the class) with Masterwork Gear and/or with Hunt Gear from Omu/Barovia or Gear from Cr, simply said with the best Gear for his Class and not only the (stupid) ilvl, went back to smth like msva?
There is no need, for him/her to do it, unless he/she is doing just for fun, and lets say it is an dps char he/she would beat the HAMSTER out of the adds and the bosses, even played single handed and controlling the mouse/controller with the nose....
mSva is for me nowadays outdated, there is far better gear and far better weapons aviable ingame, why should i run it? I dunno exactly but with two chars you have maybe enough seals of the brave, and you could buy gear and weapons for it in smth like an week.
And may i ask you also, where would be the progress, the learning factor, for an "low" or "mid" geared player, if everytime a few high geared chars and build with the best aviable guide for their class would join?
I bet they would start:
a) An perfect cheerleading choreography, cheering these players, bc they carried them so easily through the content.
b) They start complaining how "elitist" they are, pay2win only players, cheater...and so on.
Jokes aside, i was always more an fan, that people should have problems at the beginning, beating content.
Yes it is an game, a game should be fun, bc it is not an job.
But i have noticed by myself, that alot of players are not wipe resistence anymore, maybe it was this "running cloak tower with 20+ Chars/day and make Quazillions of Ad and then i am buying all the stuff from the AH, without being in an higher Tier dungeon" attitude. And then all of an sudden they are in FBI & Co. and then they noticed, that the Adds are really fighting back, and they have really something to do.
Wow, all this complains about difficulty and mandatory party compositions.
Here is the deal. This game is not designed for your personal wishes. There are casual gamers, advanced gamers and minmaxers who try to get the best effect out of their class, gear, build and party compositions.
You have to give every group something to do, to keep them playing the game, otherwise the game dies. You want me to support my claim? Here it goes.
Before I started NW I played another MMORPG. It had tiered dungeons. To beat endontend there was ONE viable party composition for the 10 player raids. You had to run the dungeons for weeks or month, before you knew the mechanics, to beat them. EVERY player in this group had to have BIS gear, including multiple sets, builds etc. for various groups of mobs. You had to time your actions by seconds. Every one of the 10 players had to be at the highest level of his game. TS was mandatory. If you did screw up once, you might have wasted hours of game time. If one player stopped playing, you hade to 'train/ gear up' the replacement for weeks, before you could beat the dungeon again or hope for one of the other 5% players, to switch teams. Switch teams? You could complete every dungeon ONCE per character per week, so there was no 'helping out' another raid.
This game had maybe 5% of player, who played at this level. 80% of players, who were content with the way things were and 15% complaining about 'elitism' etc. The developers looked at the numbers and said ' these 5% take up 50% of our work, bc we have to create an extra tier for them, testing the limits of playability and they bring 10-20% of our revenue, so screw them, we will make everything easy, so all players can do everything.
Guess what happend. These 5% stopped playing, bc they got bored. Guess what was the result. 40-60% of the player base left the game. Now you might ask, 'how should 5% have an impact of this magnitude on the community?'.
Look at our forum. Look, who contributes guides, tips and how to do its. It is these 5%. They test everything and share their findings, based on tests. A casual player does not bother, to do this and a 'XY might be swell' does not help as much as hard facts provided by these player.
Look at guilds. You go online and you want to chat to a friend. Who is online? The 5%. Thes spent way more time in game, then most casual players. If no one is online, well you will either look for another guild or stop playing.
Look ad dungeon runs. Who is there, to tell you, how the mechanics work the 5%. They tested it and share their findings.
If you need tips for your character, you dont ask BOB, you will ask them.
If a dungeon is to hard for you and your pals, you will ask one of them to join your group, to help out.
If all of the above is missing, bc these 5% left the game many of the other players will follow. I have seen this happening and it is sad.
If you are one of the 5% or with their mindset, this game is really easy and forgiving. If you are one of the rest, you should be gratefull, that this game is so easy, that you can beat the endconted with a decent ammount of gear and knowledge and various party compositions.
I am not one of these 5% anymore, bc I dont have the time it needs to stay there and frankly, bc this game does not need you to be one of them, to beat endcontend, but I know and apriciate their effort and you should do too. Let them have something to do and dont complain, that this game is not designed jst for your personal needs.
@asterotg This was very interesting read, I always was in phase with that thought, even when I wasn't part of the 5%. I'd add to your great summary that the 5% also provide a lot of items on the Auction House, thus having a huge role in the economy. The high-dungeons-specific items like Key of Stars, and now Thirst and other artifact gear come essentially from the 5%, people that run this kind of content. All of the MW items come from the 5%. I can't think of a non-hardcore player that have MW5 unlocked and actively crafting and selling this gear, considering the amount of effort, ressources and time needed. The 5% have a huge contribution to the game economy, especially when it comes to high-end items like MW/Dungeon-specific stuff, and from lockboxes. Remove these, you remove a very big part of the high quality items on the AH.
Even assuming there were no dungeon requirements at all, (so no 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps) taking at least 1 or even 2 supports should still be optimal. If it is not optimal, people making meta groups for whatever the new meta is, will automatically ignore taking tanks and healers because it is no longer optimal and support roles players will be excluded entirely.
The requirements can be modified. You can switch the OP from prot to devo and allow either a Tank or Healer to come in. So there is no REAL dungeon requirement as the system is not really intuitive and if anything – it sucks. The support roles won’t be excluded if certain modifications are taken into the account. The Support roles should be there to make things EASIER, but not to make them mandatory in order to beat the content. I can survive just fine without DC buffing me to good heavens, but I can’t survive without a tank and it shouldn’t be like that. This needs to end as it serves no purpose to build anything DEFENSE on personal character, we can all play as Glass canons with a huge AoE defense and stick behind OP/GF taking all aggro. How is this “interesting”? You just stand in one place and run a rotation in order to do damage. No, not fun, not interesting, not nice, not pretty. No real danger as OP takes all that beating onto himself and heals everyone around, too.
And you say content is easy? No, content is being MADE EASY once you take OP and DC into your party. And for other people that is the only way to play since they aren’t playing this oh so meticulously. And they shouldn’t in my opinion due to the way Cryptic changes some very intricate things once they become useful.
It is both diversity and exclusivity. It is a diversity of content (having content for different player types) and by having a diverse range of content, it automatically means that some content will be exclusive.
There is no diversity there. People still look for support characters exclusively. And I do believe that Content weapon introduced in the new MOD should be accessible to everyone, as it was the case in all previous mods. The exclusivity should befall only and only people who took time and effort to build materials and resources. Weapons should be that hard to obtain, more so if they are ARTIFACT weapons to begin with and EVEN MORE SO if they are also weapons which need restoring.
Whose idea of FUN is that one? No, it doesn’t tell me that you’re an amazing playing or that you’re great if you obtain one. It just tells me that you have way too much time and friends who are completely okay with playing support characters.
No, I do not think that people should be locked out of the content. What you’re suggesting is downright crazy. Cryptic needs new playerbase with each new mod and telling them “play for 2 years in order to enter this one dungeon” is not the way to do it. I’ve seen many new players leaving rather easily due to this.
Mid tier content would be the older dungeons that gradually become accessible due to better gear becoming more readily available and end game content would be the new dungeon.
Basically what you’re suggesting is that things should be the way they are now, which is bollocks. No, I do not think that people should defeat dungeons after they obtain newer gear. I think that they should play dungeons once the dungeons become available and have the ability to obtain the new gear in order to beat the new dungeons easily. And in order to obtain this new gear once should go through the campaign itself, which would take a month or less to complete. Similarly to how it was done for MSP.
MSP is the most complete campaign I’ve seen to this day and it had so many things to do and work your way through in order to complete it. And it had a VARIETY of weapons to choose from.
Every campaign should be like that and also offer various ACHIEVEMENTS for people who complete every single thing from the campaign.
And if you can’t play it for an entire day and collect things, that’s okay, just get a quest, finish it in 10 minutes, and play once you can again.
Cloaked Ascendency, to this day, remains the best campaign in the game. The worst being Storm King. And the easiest being Barovia.
Campaigns are not a necessary function for this MMO at all, they could have a module without a campaign structure at all, where all development resources went into 4-5 dungeons and you gained your boons and gear through running them. Instead of this, they choose to have campaigns, so ask yourself, who are they designed for? It is a fact that everyone is different and has different likes and dislikes, so it makes sense to design different types of content to cater to different desires.
This is a flawed logic. The campaigns aren’t made to be “for different people”. You’re assuming too much and trying to impose your opinion as a fact, which doesn’t work like that unfortunately.
In order to understand the necessity for campaigns, their primary orientation is to progress through the storyline which tries to be following the WotC current promotional material. This is the primary goal of developers, too, and nearly all resources go into this. Campaigns are the first and most important content in the game where the most work is being done, including graphical, vocal and technical aspects that should be fitting to the theme of the current DnD module.
Just because they aren’t the hardest content in the game it shouldn’t mean that they aren’t important. You may enjoy certain aspects of the game yourself more than some other aspects, but in reality that doesn’t mean that one aspect is less good in comparison. There is nothing, absolutely nothing wrong in playing anything that the game offers.
No, I do not agree that people should be excluded from playing Epic Dungeon content.
This is the only content where a lot of heat is produced about and the only content in the game which needs constant tweaking CLASS-wise. And as such the Epic Content becomes pretty much the only content in the game that needs adjusting with both developers and community help.
This is why Epic Dungeon content should possess certain polls which ask people about their experience and enjoyment, so that developers can gather them and present them in a neat manner to their higher-ups. And it can explain the problematics better and actually help make content greater. It takes both developer and community to have more patience and ability to understand each other.
And I do not think that their resources should be used just to widen the difference between the players because that would inevitably destroy the economy.
They know this and with each new mod the previous content becomes more accessible. The game is devised around CASUAL players first and foremost, as they are the greater majority. The game isn’t made for the elitists and speedrunners. That’s just a component that’s not important to anyone except to the elitists and speedruners themselves. The game and community should not suffer due to such people’s agenda to have better and harder content.
It if happens, it happens. If it doesn’t happen, make a viable and CATIOUS explanation as to what/how you’d like to see content going on whilst constantly remembering that this ISN’T YOUR GAME, you are JUST A PLAYER. You are JUST ONE player. Exploiters and speedrunners have been banned before, too.
If you find the game to be TOO EASY, that is too vague and isn’t an explanation nor it tries to find/narrow down what makes the content itself easy.
Since I’ve already done it, it’s rather simple – content is requiring OP/DC combo.
Three points
- Power sharing / (De)buffs. - Content itself being too hard (hard hitting mobs, CC immune mobs, making things rather one-sided – either get a tank or die) - Too many classes. The content should be made in order to require only one support for the hardest content, and no more than two at most for those who really want to make things super-smooth. The content should be giving more to the SKILLFULL players by allowing them to FACE danger and use the dodge mechanics to their great benefit. The game shouldn’t be revolving around
- Tank healing you - Tank taking ALL the damage - You hiding behind a tank at all times - Tank being an absolute necessity (what are potions, life steal, defense, dodge, deflect used for then? Vanity points? Placeholder for laughs?) - Mobs oneshotting you - CC immune mobs when entire class is CC infused, making CC obsolete and never used because God knows why - Healer buffing you - Healer increasing your damage by 2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10X more - Healer not really playing a healer but more of a buffer. - Buffer + Healer i.e. 2 x DC - Healer + Tank giving you 200.000 Power which you’d otherwise never be able to attain, not even for 20+ mods nor gear. - Healer + Tank making you A GOD - Healer + Tank switching their roles, respectfully. - Healer + Tank being a necessity to beat content - Healer + Tank having all the monopoly on the Epic Dungeon content, despite being minority. - Healer + Tank ordering, demanding or giving ultimatums that they will leave or not play unless you do what they want.
So, yeah, I do think that the game would be FAR better without Healer + Tank combo (let’s call them healer + Tank, they aren’t really doing that, they’re buff placements providing safety and damage with people disliking playing as them, but being forced to in order to see the pretty dungeon). Pardon my mistakes in typing, the autocorrect took more liberty than allowed.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
And I have already mentioned, not all pieces of content should be designed to be done by all players, because we are not all the same. That goes beyond just the difficulty of the content, but also the mechanics at play, what the content is, etc. By arguing that it should be, you are, by your own definition, being elitist because in your perspective the content should be available to all groups of players despite the fact that it will marginalize certain groups, implying the one group is superior to the other. You are unwilling to see how exclusivity of the content is part of what makes it special to those groups.
This is a void point as well as anything in the given margin can be taken as "elitism". What's true elitism in the regards to what we talked here is the conclusion that only few people have the right or deserve to play something due to their meticulousness.
Although this would be okay in my book if the classes were so-so appropriate and this required SKILL to do, this isn't the case as the case is that Dungeons are made with the current support meta at hand. The very support meta that was nerfed not once but twice. And the same support meta which doesn't allow more party composition to happen.
So asking that things only become harder without addressing the problems at the root of the problem is basically being inconsiderate of other people playing or having equal chances to get to the content in order to prove themselves.
The content shouldn't be excluded from people because they can't find a specific class to play with or if that specific class starts demanding unreasonable things or else it goes out of the dungeon.
What happened recently? People ask only to play ReQ with only, and only TonG. If they don't get it, they start over, avoid playing it until they get it.
This is not SKILL or ELITISM, this is downright EXPLOIT.
And people are forced to do it because it is easier to play it than wait other folk to gather and play either CR, which they usually can't get past sisters, or CODG which is not played because "oh no, time!".
This is the problem of
a ) Design (on several levels and clustering options)
b ) Player behavior in LFG.
And it becomes exploit galore UNTIL it becomes meta. And then people try to defend it without bringing anything to the table explaining why it's a good thing.
Other content in the game literally does not exist to me. By taking that away from me, you are taking all the content out of the game, it will be as if the game ceases to exist. In Path of Exile, in hardcore, if your character dies in a league it is migrated to the standard league. Whilst this may not at first sound like "permanent death" to you, since you can still play the game in the standard league and the mechanics are the same, to the hardcore player it is the same as if their character is deleted. What the hardcore player does is because they are no longer in their league of choice, they delete the character and start over. The reason I mention this is because it illustrates this mindset to you, the idea that some people play the game a different way.
I am terribly sorry, but stating that you are only playing one small part of the game does mean that you are acting in a rather elitist manner and that other person is correct in stating that this is not the way to go about when you're trying to provide some BALANCING OUT solutions.
And this is blatantly obvious, so I do not see why you got that defensive when I told you that you're not really into balancing out things as those aren't your cup of tea. And as I stated it is completely okay if it isn't. If you want it to be of any value in this topic you HAVE to indulge yourself in playing (and helping) other people regarding all content in order to understand and SEE the disparity among the players. You can't just say "i'm going to play this content, use my knowledge, and nobody else but chosen few can play it successfully".
^^ That is childish and doesn't help anything. If you do not find the game offering you challenges, perhaps find a game that better suits your skills. This game is devised around people who want to enjoy it with families and friends without playing it meticulously and this form of elitism can only be damaging to the rest of the people.
It is a MMO and everyone and their grandma deserves the possibility to beat any content without having to pass through anything more.
Just look at how much time it takes to finish all campaigns, get all boons? It is already a year of playing. Who will stay for that long and keep their attention getting through everything only to find themselves not being able to play it unless they've got what it takes?
Only the content taking 10+ people should be hard, the EPIC Dungeons taking 5 people should be more manageable with each class having the ability to beat it by utilizing their BUILD.
So a bit of defense, a bit of health, a bit of deflect etc. Make yourself a better player by utilizing micromanagement and equipment.
Otherwise you're only going to get people chasing after POWER options disregarding everything that's not deflect/defense unless it's for PVP. Heck, even Paladins at the moment are only building POWER at all times. I do not want that my BUILD revolves around using another person's build. I do not want another person to give me an attribute that I need. I do not want to only play EPIC DUNGEON content. That's rather secluded, conservative and doesn't provide anything fun or equal in the longer run.
And you get NERF. Power nerf. Another bonding nerf. Nerf nerf nerf. Why is that a thing? Stop in in it's root.
And this is something that I know that you do not understand nor want to understand, but I hope that other people can also understand your views which are, unfortunately, rather secular and elitist. I hope you can acknowledge this as it's not really offering a handshake. You just want the things you want without considering what others think or want to do, which I find to be uncanny of anyone who's in any position to lead anyone else.
Compromises have to be made at all times, both in life and game. That's the only way to make actual progress.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Once again, to use another comparison from PoE, how endgame works there is there are 16 tiers of maps (their version of dungeons), then 6 or so mega bosses. Most players won't make it past tier 10, the point being, content is exclusive. Having exclusive, hard content is good because:
1) It caters to the players that want that kind of content. 2) It gives players a reason to give better, progress. By having a piece of content gated behind something difficult, it encourages you to learn and get better. By having an easy version of everything, it encourages mediocrity since there is nothing to get better and "look forward to." 3) It promotes spending on the game. If you don't need to get better to experience newer content, you are less likely to spend then if your character is unable to complete all the content without some improvement. 4) It is good for game longevity. Having somewhere to move "forward" to means you have somewhere to go. The only things that stagnate are dead.
This is not PoE. This is NWO. This is an important distinction to make. Treat NWO for what is NWO, not for what it can be in comparison to something else. And solve things pragmatically withing the NWO's style and actions based on NWO's experience in the past and onward.
MASS MULTIPLAYER, the very name defines that creating content for people to play together is valid and good. This is the primary option. You have the option to seclude yourself from entire game and play just Epic Dungeons, but from that standpoint I do think that you're losing a lot and this is just my personal opinion. I've found great enjoyment in helping other people on various maps and in various content. I do not play NWO to prove anything, I've already proven both to myself and people I care for the most that I'm a great player, so I do not suffer from such youngster necessity to explain just how "awesome I am" for beating some hard content. That defeats it purpose.
I'm playing the game to waste time and I like the way this game caters to the feeling of older cRPGs which used similar mechanics since this is rarely the case in modern RPGs of any kind. I like how this game feels and that's the only thing that matters to me. I've found myself playing only one class effectively and I stick with it.
Now
1) Although this might be true, the point is for everyone to be able to play the content as it is available for everyone once they reach particular Item Level score and campaign completion. As such it is made for everyone and not just for the most elite players. So, no, this content IS NOT made only for people who enjoy the hardest content.
2) I'm sorry, but all of this is gray area since you also have content which with it's RNG system would take months to complete. yesterday only I beat over 4.000 Batiri not to get one single Batiri hunt component. The content doesn't necessarily have to be hard and unbeatable in order to discourage someone from obtaining something. Furthermore there is always the RNG system included at the end, so there is no real prize once you beat the content as most items dropping are not really worth it. People salvage them.
3) This is the worst thing. I've seen people with all R14s asking to get into parties and they can because of their IL only to find them COMPLETELY ignorant on how to play class. I dislike this as it doesn't really teach people to play the game, it only teaches them to be even more ignorant, angry and doesn't really help them to solve anything in the meantime. In all truth, not being able to beat a campaign in a time-span is what usually makes people to purchase things, or simply getting things altogether. however, I do not know this and I doubt you also know on what people usually spend most money on, but reasonably I think it's VIPs and lockboses the most. I doubt that people spend a lot of money on Epic Dungeon content since most of the gear is BOA/BOE and you can't buy it. Unless they are buying a Stronghold weapon, which is rather rare since they wouldn't even know where or how to find one, I doubt that they'd be interested to spend anything.
4) This means nothing and it's too vague. How can we decide what "longevity" is? The game's economy player-wise thrives on exclusivity and most often than not it's catering to people already having their professions maxed out and being able to gather resources asap. And if you do it asap as the new MOD introduces itself, prices go skyhigh! AAnd as soon as you do it there are better chances for you to obtain something. So, playing "elitistically" usually takes one to two days to obtain everything in NWO. This I found to be true when I actually want to use my skills to the fullest.
When I do not want to do so I simply enjoy playing the game for what it is without thinking whether "something's dead" or not.
It makes no sense to demand this game to be something it is not. no. Instead what makes sense is to give constructive FEEDBACK so that the content isn't banalized to be "either this or that" with conditions. If it allows casual play, good.
Allow the elitist players to beat the content with support chars even 10 minutes faster than me, but also allow me to beat it in any party composition so that I do not have to wait entire day to find that one godsend DC/OP willing to play as I will
a) hold my wallet tight b) wait another 3-4 mods to beat content I'm interested in due to a fact that always happened in NWO - returning or new players have it easiest!
I took a long pause of 2 years only to build my char in a month or two to 16K IL.
If I want to build a character, take time and effort, what's the purpose of doing it if another 2 characters can give me 3-4 x the power I would actually build?
How does that make me a good player? How does that teach ANYONE to micromanage and play meticulously? How does that cater to the new playerbase? I do not like it as it doesn't prove anything for my skill. It's another person's power and buff which is a bit too much if you'd ask me, and it's not really skill. This is why I do not want to use it and this is why I do not like playing Epic Dungeons. Actually it's one of the reasons.
In the topic I've proven that I can beat dungeons, so it's not my build, but my stubborn. If you want to blame me for anything, blame me for being stubbornly against other people taking my hand through dungeons.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Other content in the game literally does not exist to me.
*snip*
I guess MSVA doesn't exist to you, either. But it does to a few other players. They would like to run it. But they can't because not enuff of them are on at the same time. And then the devs get the idea to help players get into unpopular content... Random queues. And the MSVA players rejoice! For about 10 seconds. And then the player that helped their queue pop disconnects. Because they are too "elite" to run that lowly content. They might be better players. But, as human beings, as well as gamers, they are HAMSTER.
Errmm may i ask you why should someone with an maxed out char (regarding of the class) with Masterwork Gear and/or with Hunt Gear from Omu/Barovia or Gear from Cr, simply said with the best Gear for his Class and not only the (stupid) ilvl, went back to smth like msva?
There is no need, for him/her to do it, unless he/she is doing just for fun, and lets say it is an dps char he/she would beat the HAMSTER out of the adds and the bosses, even played single handed and controlling the mouse/controller with the nose....
mSva is for me nowadays outdated, there is far better gear and far better weapons aviable ingame, why should i run it? I dunno exactly but with two chars you have maybe enough seals of the brave, and you could buy gear and weapons for it in smth like an week.
And may i ask you also, where would be the progress, the learning factor, for an "low" or "mid" geared player, if everytime a few high geared chars and build with the best aviable guide for their class would join?
I bet they would start:
a) An perfect cheerleading choreography, cheering these players, bc they carried them so easily through the content.
b) They start complaining how "elitist" they are, pay2win only players, cheater...and so on.
Jokes aside, i was always more an fan, that people should have problems at the beginning, beating content.
Yes it is an game, a game should be fun, bc it is not an job.
But i have noticed by myself, that alot of players are not wipe resistence anymore, maybe it was this "running cloak tower with 20+ Chars/day and make Quazillions of Ad and then i am buying all the stuff from the AH, without being in an higher Tier dungeon" attitude. And then all of an sudden they are in FBI & Co. and then they noticed, that the Adds are really fighting back, and they have really something to do.
You don't have to run SVA N or M. You should run it, occasionally, specifically because it is outdated. Any content more than 2 mods old is essentially abandoned. "It does not exist to me." or "it is outdated." Outdated it might be, but it does exist. But there are payers that are running it. Some of them are trying to do what the end-game players tell them to do when they complain about the difficulty of new content.. "Go back and get all the campaign boons." Except there are not endless runs of experienced players doing this content any more. You completed the content when it was popular, but you didn't do it alone. You had other players that either knew what they were doing, or were willing to sit thru wipe after wipe until you got it. That simply isn't the case any more. It is one of the reasons the devs implemented the Random Queues. And if you happen to get MSVA while in the random queue... you should run it simply to avoid being a Hamster - nozzle.
The progress, firstly, is simply being able to complete the content. How many runs did it take you to get the timing on the mechanics down? How long will it take the lower geared/new players to learn how to run this content when they sit in queue for their entire play session & it never pops? Or if they lose one after another party member until the other members of the party abandon the instance? 0 runs = 0 experience.
Obviously if you take abuse, or someone doesn't listen to good advice, you are free to leave. But, kicking the abusive player would be a better option, so the rest of the party does learn something. & then you have 4 more players that can help the rest of those struggling with the content. Is that not worth 1/2 hour of your time?
The only players that end up in FBI with no clue that mobs fight back are wallet warriors running their first toon. Cloak Tower didn't do anyone any favors. Bu long before ant player got 5, let alone 20 toons, they would have gotten into ETOS, or EGWD. That is the real clue-by-four for those players sheltered by the "elitist", end-game players choosing to run leveling dungeons for endless AD, without even taking the time to explain what a skill node was. Or how to collect crystals & flowers for the 2 extra chests. Or where the 2 chest protected by orcs are. You would be surprised how many level 70 toons I have met that never even knew. Nobody is asking you to run the content for them. Run it with them, & try not to leave them as ignorant of how the game works as you found them. Otherwise... all the other gripes... are your own fault.
Guys, just quit the game if u find it tedious. There are better game out there that are more balanced and content friendly. Let the people that wanna feel exclusive play with themselves. Problem has been brought up, ideas has been given. There is no point to further discuss when there are people that doesnt want to share the content with us. I already felt stupid for buying zen to support this game when I 1st played this game. Cant join a game because I wanna play archer? I wonder how many people is gonna fell victim to the meta in the future, Like gwf, archer used to be fotm. Just saying.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Guys, just quit the game if u find it tedious. There are better game out there that are more balanced and content friendly. Let the people that wanna feel exclusive play with themselves. Problem has been brought up, ideas has been given. There is no point to further discuss when there are people that doesnt want to share the content with us. I already felt stupid for buying zen to support this game when I 1st played this game. Cant join a game because I wanna play archer? I wonder how many people is gonna fell victim to the meta in the future, Like gwf, archer used to be fotm. Just saying.
Cheap rhetoric, everyone have the same access to all content, no one prohibit anyone to create a group however they want and do whatever they want. Want to play archery healer tank with healer companions, go for it.
Want to ask for buffs for archery, that too will be a valid request, as it was requested several times, open a thread. Want to ask for change to the buffs and stats, which will affect the viability of archery spec directly, even more valid request, go for it, because we did it already, there are even links in this thread, buried somewhere among the nonsense.
Where have you been when we requested those things, and specifically to level the play field, and help specs like Archery which under-performs ? I've been asking for diminishing returns for stats and buffs for what, over 2 years now, so where were you?
Want to address the issues that were brought up to your proposals more than useless "Don't worry" which is as useful to supporting an argument as a buffer TR, please do. Saying "Don't worry, they will progress, even though there is no actual need" is just false, when already 'many' do not progress beyond what is necessary and the game half dead because the lack of progress path.
So I wonder why the attitude of "I deserve everything the same as the people who put ten times the time/money than me" meets with resistance.
BTW the guild I'm in has 2 Archery HRs, and they are not excluded from anything, whatever they want to join, they are always more than welcome. Does the path, or fundamental of game mechanics should be changed so they wont feel like fifth wheel, ofc, and sooner the better, but it has nothing to do with making content easier, they put the time in their chars, they shouldn't get a 'baby' version of the content. They should feel useful in the same content as the rest. Yet again, this is class balance and mechanics issue.
Understanding class synergy, and 'meta' is what allows to compensate for difference of gear, difference of skill (and it will always be varied), difference of specs and builds. Each compensate for the others.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
You don't have to run SVA N or M. You should run it, occasionally, specifically because it is outdated. Any content more than 2 mods old is essentially abandoned. "It does not exist to me." or "it is outdated." Outdated it might be, but it does exist. But there are payers that are running it. Some of them are trying to do what the end-game players tell them to do when they complain about the difficulty of new content.. "Go back and get all the campaign boons."
Boons do not require queued content (except the broken now PvP campaign).
You completed the content when it was popular, but you didn't do it alone. You had other players that either knew what they were doing, or were willing to sit thru wipe after wipe until you got it. That simply isn't the case any more. It is one of the reasons the devs implemented the Random Queues.
And the wiping and learning wasn't in public queue or random queue that only servers to farm AD.
And if you happen to get MSVA while in the random queue... you should run it simply to avoid being a Hamster - nozzle.
And you should stop generalizing, because everyone I know in-game will run whatever random thing they get, to the best of their ability without disconnecting, swapping or whatever.
The progress, firstly, is simply being able to complete the content. How many runs did it take you to get the timing on the mechanics down? How long will it take the lower geared/new players to learn how to run this content
When it was new the 'low' geared was much lower, there were no boons from other campaigns like chult / borovia, lower weapons base damage, lower enchant ranks, and no catch-up gear or hunts gear.
when they sit in queue for their entire play session & it never pops? Or if they lose one after another party member until the other members of the party abandon the instance? 0 runs = 0 experience.
Most people avoid the queue system like the plague it is, you will mostly get worse results with CR now, and it has nothing to do with meta or not meta. I would rather fail it with friends / guildies, at least then we tried, had fun, perhaps learned something and will try another time, than random and fall on some moron that will blame everyone and everything, create miserable atmosphere, and ruin the expiriance, even if the run will be successful.
Obviously if you take abuse, or someone doesn't listen to good advice, you are free to leave. But, kicking the abusive player would be a better option, so the rest of the party does learn something. & then you have 4 more players that can help the rest of those struggling with the content. Is that not worth 1/2 hour of your time?
1. I do it all the time in the context of the guild, this is what it's for, and most of my CR runs had someone who is first time there, and most took much longer that those in the videos. But in a guild there is communication, and I will not waste half hour per run voting and suffering, out of my play time when now I play less than 10 hours per week, when even if I spend half hour making a group of guildies / friends, I know for sure, it will not be a bad expiriance even if it fails. More so, if I see a specific problem, I can leave so a guildy with a more complimenting class can swap with me (or some who plays several classes can swap) and I'm more than happy to see 4 friends finish a thought run (Yes, yes, that evil group synergy understanding can be useful, how dare it).
2. How one judges a good advice? Or abuse? When even simple things like pleading & begging for people to stop the most mistimed RAs in history gives only more RAs and probably few words about hamsters and parental lineage and occupation. No thanks.
The only players that end up in FBI with no clue that mobs fight back are wallet warriors running their first toon. Cloak Tower didn't do anyone any favors. Bu long before ant player got 5, let alone 20 toons, they would have gotten into ETOS, or EGWD. That is the real clue-by-four for those players sheltered by the "elitist", end-game players choosing to run leveling dungeons for endless AD, without even taking the time to explain what a skill node was. Or how to collect crystals & flowers for the 2 extra chests. Or where the 2 chest protected by orcs are. You would be surprised how many level 70 toons I have met that never even knew. Nobody is asking you to run the content for them. Run it with them, & try not to leave them as ignorant of how the game works as you found them. Otherwise... all the other gripes... are your own fault.
"Try to not leave them ignorant of how the game works". Funny that you mentioned that, you for example have a lot of time commuting to your place of learning, 2 hours per day you've mentioned? A lot of time spent on reading the forums (nothing against it), did you happen to read the links I've provided two posts ago?
Have you ever bothered with the countless videos and guides of MSVA mechanics, cradle, push pull, ras nisi, or every other thing out there?
When people spend days editing hour long video for new players that reach 70, (like strifes) or entire channels like Sumes, and many others or detailed dungeon guides, it is amazing how some people still come and still demand more of others time.
Ofc, not everyone, there are normal people, from the total random person in my last RQ FBI who probably thought I was going to kick him when I've asked if it's his completely first run or first on alt", but was honest and polite, and go the full explanation of what is going on on the fly.
But still, how about before you rear that ugly generalizing mentality of "It's all 'their' fault", first check who, and how much time people spend to help others, in first runs, or explaining things in general, or making guides, both for classes and content.
You don't have to run SVA N or M. You should run it, occasionally, specifically because it is outdated. Any content more than 2 mods old is essentially abandoned. "It does not exist to me." or "it is outdated." Outdated it might be, but it does exist. But there are payers that are running it. Some of them are trying to do what the end-game players tell them to do when they complain about the difficulty of new content.. "Go back and get all the campaign boons."
Boons do not require queued content (except the broken now PvP campaign).
You completed the content when it was popular, but you didn't do it alone. You had other players that either knew what they were doing, or were willing to sit thru wipe after wipe until you got it. That simply isn't the case any more. It is one of the reasons the devs implemented the Random Queues.
And the wiping and learning wasn't in public queue or random queue that only servers to farm AD.
And if you happen to get MSVA while in the random queue... you should run it simply to avoid being a Hamster - nozzle.
And you should stop generalizing, because everyone I know in-game will run whatever random thing they get, to the best of their ability without disconnecting, swapping or whatever.
The progress, firstly, is simply being able to complete the content. How many runs did it take you to get the timing on the mechanics down? How long will it take the lower geared/new players to learn how to run this content
When it was new the 'low' geared was much lower, there were no boons from other campaigns like chult / borovia, lower weapons base damage, lower enchant ranks, and no catch-up gear or hunts gear.
when they sit in queue for their entire play session & it never pops? Or if they lose one after another party member until the other members of the party abandon the instance? 0 runs = 0 experience.
Most people avoid the queue system like the plague it is, you will mostly get worse results with CR now, and it has nothing to do with meta or not meta. I would rather fail it with friends / guildies, at least then we tried, had fun, perhaps learned something and will try another time, than random and fall on some moron that will blame everyone and everything, create miserable atmosphere, and ruin the expiriance, even if the run will be successful.
Obviously if you take abuse, or someone doesn't listen to good advice, you are free to leave. But, kicking the abusive player would be a better option, so the rest of the party does learn something. & then you have 4 more players that can help the rest of those struggling with the content. Is that not worth 1/2 hour of your time?
1. I do it all the time in the context of the guild, this is what it's for, and most of my CR runs had someone who is first time there, and most took much longer that those in the videos. But in a guild there is communication, and I will not waste half hour per run voting and suffering, out of my play time when now I play less than 10 hours per week, when even if I spend half hour making a group of guildies / friends, I know for sure, it will not be a bad expiriance even if it fails. More so, if I see a specific problem, I can leave so a guildy with a more complimenting class can swap with me (or some who plays several classes can swap) and I'm more than happy to see 4 friends finish a thought run (Yes, yes, that evil group synergy understanding can be useful, how dare it).
2. How one judges a good advice? Or abuse? When even simple things like pleading & begging for people to stop the most mistimed RAs in history gives only more RAs and probably few words about hamsters and parental lineage and occupation. No thanks.
The only players that end up in FBI with no clue that mobs fight back are wallet warriors running their first toon. Cloak Tower didn't do anyone any favors. Bu long before ant player got 5, let alone 20 toons, they would have gotten into ETOS, or EGWD. That is the real clue-by-four for those players sheltered by the "elitist", end-game players choosing to run leveling dungeons for endless AD, without even taking the time to explain what a skill node was. Or how to collect crystals & flowers for the 2 extra chests. Or where the 2 chest protected by orcs are. You would be surprised how many level 70 toons I have met that never even knew. Nobody is asking you to run the content for them. Run it with them, & try not to leave them as ignorant of how the game works as you found them. Otherwise... all the other gripes... are your own fault.
"Try to not leave them ignorant of how the game works". Funny that you mentioned that, you for example have a lot of time commuting to your place of learning, 2 hours per day you've mentioned? A lot of time spent on reading the forums (nothing against it), did you happen to read the links I've provided two posts ago?
Have you ever bothered with the countless videos and guides of MSVA mechanics, cradle, push pull, ras nisi, or every other thing out there?
When people spend days editing hour long video for new players that reach 70, (like strifes) or entire channels like Sumes, and many others or detailed dungeon guides, it is amazing how some people still come and still demand more of others time.
Ofc, not everyone, there are normal people, from the total random person in my last RQ FBI who probably thought I was going to kick him when I've asked if it's his completely first run or first on alt", but was honest and polite, and go the full explanation of what is going on on the fly.
But still, how about before you rear that ugly generalizing mentality of "It's all 'their' fault", first check who, and how much time people spend to help others, in first runs, or explaining things in general, or making guides, both for classes and content.
a: MSVA is the only skirmish in the game that does not drop campaign rewards? Weird. b: Preview. Server. c: Your. Experience. d: Which is why there are 13 topics on the first 3 pages of a forum search for "leavers." e: Gear was lower. Which is why the whole power-sharing is even a thing. Also why, end-gamers were always whining at the noobz to "finish your boons, dammit!" f: Now. PvP, Tiamat, & MSVA are some of the content that you could only get into *quickly* if you were in a private group. The rest of us... Had to beg for ppl to queue in zone chat. Tiamat was one that there were players doing that 6 months ago... just before Random Queues became a thing. What a coincidence! g: 1) How nice for your guild. How sad for everyone that is not in your guild. Charity does not end at home. I help my guildies too. I also help players in zone chat & players I will probably never run with again. Some of them do send me very nice e-mails tho g: 2) Like everyone else, you judge abuse (or good advice) from your own perspective. If words like "elitist" hurt your feelings, that's okay. If someone tells you to climb the furniture in CN to avoid the shambling hordes, & you don't, that's on you. h: 2 posts ago before, or after they split the thread? Personally, I prefer not to have my first experience with a game be watching other ppl playing it. I do watch YouTube videos. Not on the bus, mind you. We don't have public Wi-Fi here. I do appreciate the time that goes into them. I subscribe if they are not complete idiots, like the one telling ppl to farm platinum bowls fro AD I also don't skip the ads. Nobody is demanding anything of anyone. At least I'm not. I am pointing out that you catch more flies with honey, than vinegar. And if players that know that there are 4 HAMSTER chests at the end of the cloak tower that can actually help level 15 - 25ish players & don't share that information, you are not making the game better. You are making it worse. But you are, as always, free to play as you see fit. Doesn't mean you won't be judged for it.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I wasn't aware that on the preview server there is this magical guide with infinite expiriance, who will show all newcomers how to do things and guide them one by one to all new content.
And human nature didn't change in a mod, 2, or ten, pugs will always be faster to leave while premades will be more inclined to try again and learn. Nothing is different in new content, if it was CR for the well geared, or FBI/Tomb for the less geared. Except that doing tomb / FBI now is much easier than it was when it was new, when now the starting gear is mostly at the same level as was BiS long ago.
d: Which is why there are 13 topics on the first 3 pages of a forum search for "leavers."
You implied that it's those geared elitists with their meta, from what I see, it's those who desperately need the AD from RQ, those who value their time more than basic human curtsy, those who mainly solo/pug and who can't handle challenge and ask for everything to be easier, hmm, reminds me of...
e: Gear was lower. Which is why the whole power-sharing is even a thing. Also why, end-gamers were always whining at the noobz to "finish your boons, dammit!"
Power sharing has nothing to do with this, and boons are the most straight forward progress path, allowing to get into higher tier content and gear. Here is the mentality, someone/everyone give valid advice, that every new players should actually listen to, and it's called "Whine" and 'noobz', this is the mentality for which I avoid the PuGs..
f: Now. PvP, Tiamat, & MSVA are some of the content that you could only get into *quickly* if you were in a private group. The rest of us... Had to beg for ppl to queue in zone chat. Tiamat was one that there were players doing that 6 months ago... just before Random Queues became a thing. What a coincidence!
Or you could have join some of the public channels, who on double currency only ran tiamat. Or you could have formed a group and do it. There is no 'rest of us', everyone started the same, when need a group to go somewhere, you choose to beg and complain, I choose to form a group and go there.
g: 1) How nice for your guild. How sad for everyone that is not in your guild. Charity does not end at home. I help my guildies too. I also help players in zone chat & players I will probably never run with again. Some of them do send me very nice e-mails tho
1. How good for you, how sad for everyone else, shame though that you see helping others as charity.
g: 2) Like everyone else, you judge abuse (or good advice) from your own perspective. If words like "elitist" hurt your feelings, that's okay. If someone tells you to climb the furniture in CN to avoid the shambling hordes, & you don't, that's on you.
Wait, I'm not sure I understand, calling someone elitist or anything while knowing it hurts their feelings is ok, but waking up some zombies in CN is not?
Personally, I prefer not to have my first experience with a game be watching other ppl playing it.
Completely valid, but life is compromise, you can't expect to have the same chance as someone who prepared in advance, or expect that for everyone new there will be always someone experienced to guide. Meaning that there is more chance of failure, and it's up to everyone to look what they want to do with their time, and the trade-offs.
I do watch YouTube videos. Not on the bus, mind you. We don't have public Wi-Fi here. I do appreciate the time that goes into them. I subscribe if they are not complete idiots, like the one telling ppl to farm platinum bowls fro AD I also don't skip the ads. Nobody is demanding anything of anyone. At least I'm not. I am pointing out that you catch more flies with honey, than vinegar. And if players that know that there are 4 HAMSTER chests at the end of the cloak tower that can actually help level 15 - 25ish players & don't share that information, you are not making the game better. You are making it worse. But you are, as always, free to play as you see fit. Doesn't mean you won't be judged for it.
1. While it's great that people expiriance the dungeons with all their intricacies, similar like the old CN tours with bat caves and hidden chests, which add to the expiriance of the game, the chests there will not help a low level player, they will outlevel anything there in hours at most.
2. What will you say, if you are in FBI, last boss, and someone keeps destroying the Ice, and as a result the party wipes again and again, while you try again and again explain them how the ice must be kept standing and then hide behind it, then later the same person complains in zone that FBI is too hard and should be nerfed?
I never encountered so much elitism as under this thread. I really feel sorry for you guys as you are figthing to keep your virtual muscles to be the biggest in the game and to keep everyone out of your backyard.
Glad I had my eyes opened. I thought endgame players in this game are the ones who should help others, I thought this community is cool. Well, now I see it's not. I guess making some game materials doesn't mean you are a better human being, but there are people here who consider themselves superior.
Happy life to all of you. I'll just stick with "plebe" in my guild, who are not worthy of the content which should be exclusive for few people in this game. I'll try to drag their <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> through dungeons, even though we will propably fail. But hey - they are a decent human beings and not total jerks.
Have fun and keep your dungeons to yourself. Us, the unworthy players, we will shut up and go do some campaigns as you commanded to us.
No more response from me. Peace out.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I never encountered so much elitism as under this thread. I really feel sorry for you guys as you are figthing to keep your virtual muscles to be the biggest in the game and to keep everyone out of your backyard.
Glad I had my eyes opened. I thought endgame players in this game are the ones who should help others, I thought this community is cool. Well, now I see it's not. I guess making some game materials doesn't mean you are a better human being, but there are people here who consider themselves superior.
Happy life to all of you. I'll just stick with "plebe" in my guild, who are not worthy of the content which should be exclusive for few people in this game. I'll try to drag their HAMSTER through dungeons, even though we will propably fail. But hey - they are a decent human beings and not total jerks.
Have fun and keep your dungeons to yourself. Us, the unworthy players, we will shut up and go do some campaigns as you commanded to us.
No more response from me. Peace out.
But you are the elitist one. The superior, the moral high ground. How dare anyone ask for content not to be trivialized so they have something to play too. Lets make all the content interesting only to you, and HAMSTER the rest, because why would you give a HAMSTER about others, Ironically, others who put more hours into helping others than you did. But it's easier to demonize others and victimize yourself just to look good, while doing worse.
"I thought endgame players in this game are the ones who should help others" Everyone can help others, so lets see what behind that statement, lets compare, lets look what you did, and what others. Lets see who just throws HAMSTER, claiming they are decent humans, who the jerks are.
I've run a lot of dungeons, failed a lot too, solve the issues brought up for tiered content, and I'm all for it, but could it be that a better solution was offered? Can't be, why read? reading will bring to a solution, and then how can people blame the others.. I care less about content and more about a community, and nothing triggers me more than entitled jerks who generalize, throw HAMSTER on others without knowing anything, and think they are better morally just because they can't run part of the content, those who rather generalize posters and people, than issues (yes like I'm doing now, unfortunately), those who will blame everyone for their issues but will never look at themselves.
I never encountered so much elitism as under this thread. I really feel sorry for you guys as you are figthing to keep your virtual muscles to be the biggest in the game and to keep everyone out of your backyard.
Glad I had my eyes opened. I thought endgame players in this game are the ones who should help others, I thought this community is cool. Well, now I see it's not. I guess making some game materials doesn't mean you are a better human being, but there are people here who consider themselves superior.
Happy life to all of you. I'll just stick with "plebe" in my guild, who are not worthy of the content which should be exclusive for few people in this game. I'll try to drag their HAMSTER through dungeons, even though we will propably fail. But hey - they are a decent human beings and not total jerks.
Have fun and keep your dungeons to yourself. Us, the unworthy players, we will shut up and go do some campaigns as you commanded to us.
No more response from me. Peace out.
Sad that you are thinking this way about an person like @micky1p00 , bc she is spending so much time in theorycrafting for all classes, and uploading her knowledge on her page, for everyone (including you) instead farming totally "elitism" more AD so she could buy finally an legendary snail...
Once more how about these "elitist" players should help the "low" chars or "Casuals" or "newbies"...the funny truth is...you are arguing (or better said you are not, bc for me it is more an insult) against players that are helping these people now for an long time, with guides, knowledgesharing, and how to improve chars/playstyle....
What more should they do?
Taking every new, casual player by the hand, like in the Kindergarden from the beginning of an dungeon up to the Lootchest after beating the final boss, and apologize then if there is not the sweet loot in it?
So let me (once more) tell you an true story from me:
A couple of days ago i was bored, so i decided to try out an random q with my dps char bc i made an race change and maximising the ability scores for my class and i wanted to to test it. So i came in an group in Dwarven Throne skirmish..and all i did was only helping out so that it was safe an tripple gold run, nothing more... After the run one of them pm'ed me with. "Oh for such an high gs you had an louzy dps!!!"
I tried to explain him, that i wasn't playing serious and i am not here to carry new players (he told me he was new to the game and fresh lvl 70, giuldless, no high enchants no weapon, no armor enchant), through any content, bc if i had played serious he had gone afk during the skirm...
Long story short, i invited him then to an guildrun in CN, i was sending him an few R8 enchants and an cheap armor enchant, bc he had not the minimal gs for CN. We went in and this time i was playing serious, and even if i am now near 50 years old...i am still able to hold the speed with younger guildmates..
After the run i asked himif he had fun, bc he had nothing more to do to pick up some gold (and green stuff....obviously). And (i was not surprised) he answered with: "No bc it was too fast and i couldn't beat an single opponent."
So may i ask you once more @Wintersmoke or @wizardlvl80#5963 should every New Player, every Casual being constantly carried through the content from the "Elitist", evil "HighGeared pay2win" Players up to an point that they will never learn something, or start being a little more wipe resistant if something going wrong?
or
Let them "them" play together, grow together, by making the same mistakes everyone made in the past and learning from these mistakes.
think abot that.
6
checkmatein3Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 525Arc User
To all those who make guides and spend hours theory crafting for different scenarios, thank you.
To the Youtube video uploaders, even the ones who I do not like in the game on a personal level, thank you.
To that particular breed of gamer who finds enjoyment in squeezing out every last bit of synergy for any scenario so that others, who will never have the options in AD, gear, mount...choices, so that we have the freedom to be useful in the style and choice of our own play in our own time, thank you.
To the casual player, who comes into Neverwinter, amazed by its combat system, its rich intertwined lore, its fast progression, thanks for choosing this game as your limited entertainment.
To my guild leader and my guild mates, thanks for being cool. Yes, I am part of Micky1poo's guild, and I can say, without any blushing or attempt to kiss HAMSTER, that it is the best guild I have been apart of in the game.
To my fellow GF theory crafters, even the PvP ones, from whom I glean knowledge: Mini, Anri, LILITH, Tombs, and...especially Morks, thanks. Even if I don't follow (all of) what you do, I appreciate you sharing it.
To the foundry authors who want to breathe life back into a part of the game which is so neglected, thanks! Almost no rewards for me, and I just love seeing what you guys come up with.
My choice of gaming and the time I put into it as a means of voluntary entertainment is enriched because of all your efforts.
I wasn't aware that on the preview server there is this magical guide with infinite expiriance, who will show all newcomers how to do things and guide them one by one to all new content.
And human nature didn't change in a mod, 2, or ten, pugs will always be faster to leave while premades will be more inclined to try again and learn. Nothing is different in new content, if it was CR for the well geared, or FBI/Tomb for the less geared. Except that doing tomb / FBI now is much easier than it was when it was new, when now the starting gear is mostly at the same level as was BiS long ago.
d: Which is why there are 13 topics on the first 3 pages of a forum search for "leavers."
You implied that it's those geared elitists with their meta, from what I see, it's those who desperately need the AD from RQ, those who value their time more than basic human curtsy, those who mainly solo/pug and who can't handle challenge and ask for everything to be easier, hmm, reminds me of...
e: Gear was lower. Which is why the whole power-sharing is even a thing. Also why, end-gamers were always whining at the noobz to "finish your boons, dammit!"
Power sharing has nothing to do with this, and boons are the most straight forward progress path, allowing to get into higher tier content and gear. Here is the mentality, someone/everyone give valid advice, that every new players should actually listen to, and it's called "Whine" and 'noobz', this is the mentality for which I avoid the PuGs..
f: Now. PvP, Tiamat, & MSVA are some of the content that you could only get into *quickly* if you were in a private group. The rest of us... Had to beg for ppl to queue in zone chat. Tiamat was one that there were players doing that 6 months ago... just before Random Queues became a thing. What a coincidence!
Or you could have join some of the public channels, who on double currency only ran tiamat. Or you could have formed a group and do it. There is no 'rest of us', everyone started the same, when need a group to go somewhere, you choose to beg and complain, I choose to form a group and go there.
g: 1) How nice for your guild. How sad for everyone that is not in your guild. Charity does not end at home. I help my guildies too. I also help players in zone chat & players I will probably never run with again. Some of them do send me very nice e-mails tho
1. How good for you, how sad for everyone else, shame though that you see helping others as charity.
g: 2) Like everyone else, you judge abuse (or good advice) from your own perspective. If words like "elitist" hurt your feelings, that's okay. If someone tells you to climb the furniture in CN to avoid the shambling hordes, & you don't, that's on you.
Wait, I'm not sure I understand, calling someone elitist or anything while knowing it hurts their feelings is ok, but waking up some zombies in CN is not?
Personally, I prefer not to have my first experience with a game be watching other ppl playing it.
Completely valid, but life is compromise, you can't expect to have the same chance as someone who prepared in advance, or expect that for everyone new there will be always someone experienced to guide. Meaning that there is more chance of failure, and it's up to everyone to look what they want to do with their time, and the trade-offs.
I do watch YouTube videos. Not on the bus, mind you. We don't have public Wi-Fi here. I do appreciate the time that goes into them. I subscribe if they are not complete idiots, like the one telling ppl to farm platinum bowls fro AD I also don't skip the ads. Nobody is demanding anything of anyone. At least I'm not. I am pointing out that you catch more flies with honey, than vinegar. And if players that know that there are 4 HAMSTER chests at the end of the cloak tower that can actually help level 15 - 25ish players & don't share that information, you are not making the game better. You are making it worse. But you are, as always, free to play as you see fit. Doesn't mean you won't be judged for it.
1. While it's great that people expiriance the dungeons with all their intricacies, similar like the old CN tours with bat caves and hidden chests, which add to the expiriance of the game, the chests there will not help a low level player, they will outlevel anything there in hours at most.
2. What will you say, if you are in FBI, last boss, and someone keeps destroying the Ice, and as a result the party wipes again and again, while you try again and again explain them how the ice must be kept standing and then hide behind it, then later the same person complains in zone that FBI is too hard and should be nerfed?
i: Didn't miss it. Just like you ignored the fact that skirmishes provide rewards that progress the campaign faster. ii: Available, yes. Own a computer that has enuff HAMSTER to run both preview & live game, no. Have enuff time to re-download the game every week, alas also no. There is a magical source of learning available to help new players... experienced players. I thought you liked helping... iii: Human nature has not changed in 20k years. Some ppl are willing to sacrifice their needs for the best interests of the group, and some are not. iv: You implied that because you are "good" & because all of your friends are "good" (you assume), that there are no "bad" people out there. I offered evidence that that is not the experience that every player has. Indeed, there a LOT of players that have the exact opposite experience. v: Power sharing was devised by players looking to maximize their toons, and minimize their run times. It has been adopted by the rest of the game as a way to beat content without actually taking 3, or 6, or 9 months to gather all the boons. Currently it is being used to keep players that don't build a certain way out of content. Seems relevant to me. Not everyone gives good advice. "Farm platinum bowls for AD! Whoop-de-hoop!!!" Not everyone helps without being asked. See: Level 70's that don't know how the flowers & crystals in Cloak Tower work. Not every player will help, even if asked. Some will kick you for not knowing better (NOOBZ!!!) I'm not the tone police, but when "advice" is offered including words like noobz, gitgud, or the like, whining is the nicest term that can be applied. The more accurate terms will get HAMSTERD. vi: Oh, I see. Content is made to be run only on 3 - 4 weekends per year. Thanks for letting me know. There is a rest of us... several as a matter of fact. there are players that started with Beta... and the rest of us. There are players that can play for hours at a time... and the rest of us. There are those that took advantage of certain, ahem, AD generating schemes early in the game, and the rest of us. There are those players willing to abandon a dungeon run because it will be too hard (or slow) with the group they got matched wit... and the rest of us. You would have seen them in zone chat begging for runs (like Tiamat or MSVA) 6 months ago. I don't do that anymore. I got tired of it after about a week. I queue for content I want to do, & run something else while I'm waiting. Or did until the Random Queues. Now I have enuff diversity that I'm never bored & I only rarely have to go farm something for rewards that I need. vii: What do you think charities do? viii: Nobody knows what is going to hurt your feelings, but whatever it is, it is a perfectly acceptable reaction. Is that clearer? And I have had more than one toon wrecked by the shambling hordes In CN. The stinky lil' fakers. It wasn't until I got the rank 14 Move-'em-up enchant that I actually saw how they were avoiding the buggers. ix: Nope. Must have missed it in the walls-o-text. I''l have to see if I can find the other thread. x: I do have the same chance as everyone else. I have the chance that I will get grouped with someone that has already done the content, and instead of staying to help, they leave. xi: 1)again... your experience. Not all players finish the Tower District in a single go. Those chests are full of all kinds of things. Not only gear. All of them can be sold for gold. If gold is such a burden, you can mail all of yours to me xi: 2)I will say, "Awesome. I got into FBI. And didn't get kicked after 30 seconds. And nobody quit... yet!
I never encountered so much elitism as under this thread. I really feel sorry for you guys as you are figthing to keep your virtual muscles to be the biggest in the game and to keep everyone out of your backyard.
Glad I had my eyes opened. I thought endgame players in this game are the ones who should help others, I thought this community is cool. Well, now I see it's not. I guess making some game materials doesn't mean you are a better human being, but there are people here who consider themselves superior.
Happy life to all of you. I'll just stick with "plebe" in my guild, who are not worthy of the content which should be exclusive for few people in this game. I'll try to drag their HAMSTER through dungeons, even though we will propably fail. But hey - they are a decent human beings and not total jerks.
Have fun and keep your dungeons to yourself. Us, the unworthy players, we will shut up and go do some campaigns as you commanded to us.
No more response from me. Peace out.
Sad that you are thinking this way about an person like @micky1p00 , bc she is spending so much time in theorycrafting for all classes, and uploading her knowledge on her page, for everyone (including you) instead farming totally "elitism" more AD so she could buy finally an legendary snail...
Once more how about these "elitist" players should help the "low" chars or "Casuals" or "newbies"...the funny truth is...you are arguing (or better said you are not, bc for me it is more an insult) against players that are helping these people now for an long time, with guides, knowledgesharing, and how to improve chars/playstyle....
What more should they do?
Taking every new, casual player by the hand, like in the Kindergarden from the beginning of an dungeon up to the Lootchest after beating the final boss, and apologize then if there is not the sweet loot in it?
So let me (once more) tell you an true story from me:
A couple of days ago i was bored, so i decided to try out an random q with my dps char bc i made an race change and maximising the ability scores for my class and i wanted to to test it. So i came in an group in Dwarven Throne skirmish..and all i did was only helping out so that it was safe an tripple gold run, nothing more... After the run one of them pm'ed me with. "Oh for such an high gs you had an louzy dps!!!"
I tried to explain him, that i wasn't playing serious and i am not here to carry new players (he told me he was new to the game and fresh lvl 70, giuldless, no high enchants no weapon, no armor enchant), through any content, bc if i had played serious he had gone afk during the skirm...
Long story short, i invited him then to an guildrun in CN, i was sending him an few R8 enchants and an cheap armor enchant, bc he had not the minimal gs for CN. We went in and this time i was playing serious, and even if i am now near 50 years old...i am still able to hold the speed with younger guildmates..
After the run i asked himif he had fun, bc he had nothing more to do to pick up some gold (and green stuff....obviously). And (i was not surprised) he answered with: "No bc it was too fast and i couldn't beat an single opponent."
So may i ask you once more @Wintersmoke or @wizardlvl80#5963 should every New Player, every Casual being constantly carried through the content from the "Elitist", evil "HighGeared pay2win" Players up to an point that they will never learn something, or start being a little more wipe resistant if something going wrong?
or
Let them "them" play together, grow together, by making the same mistakes everyone made in the past and learning from these mistakes.
think abot that.
Elitist =/= evil. Selfish, maybe. Hypocritical, probably. Very few players got to the point where they can be elitist without a few carries. Oghma knows I've been carried, & I am nowhere near endgame. Nobody is required to play in any way they don't want to. But nobody is free from judgements based on their actions, either.
HighGeared & Pay2Win =/= evil. Altho they are more likely than the average player to be a HAMSTER Baggins. I would say this is what you ran into in your random queue experiment. They were also the ones that were in PE Zone chat "LFG 4 more 16K+ for CN", before the Random Queues. BTW, I only ran CN 1 time before the random queues. Totally got carried.
Constantly carried is not good. That is how we got where we are, because a 'generation' of players were carried thru leveling dungeons by high levels chasing quick easy AD. I would say that these players were more of the pay 2 win, than the end game players. More, not only. I have seen some @ handles in Cloak TOwer & Cragmire Crypts that shocked me. Again (sigh) nobody is asking you to play any way you don't want to. But choices have consequences. I chose to not have alts. I have 5 toons (six soon!) that I play. That means my progression is gimped. I am fine with this. If you choose to carry a player, rather than running with them & explaining things as you go, that is a choice. And there are consequences. Consequences for you. Consequences for the carried. And consequences for the game. But the choice is yours.
This was my original point. Letting players of same level is the optimal environment. But as recent changes to the game have shown, it is not always possible. There are some areas where there are not enuff players to form a 5 man party. Or at least there are not 5 players that are interested in forming a party, since it would prevent them from running XYZ to farm AD. (Again. sigh... their choice) This is why we have a Random Queue in the first place.
Also, saying everyone had the same option to make mistakes & learn. That's not entirely true. 30+ instances when Well of dragons dropped. 60+ when River District dropped. 100+ when Ravenloft dropped. With the exception of 00:45 of the hour, when was the last time you saw WoD in double digits? Outdated content is mostly used as demon run, RP, & salvage farms. Not exactly an equivalent experience.
Let me see if i got this right.. from what i read so far minus the class balances/META and etc (which i dont wanna touch)
Low-Mid player PoV low-mid tier players which not complete / unlock previous campaign boons/inexperience with dungeon mechanics wanted to experience the latest trend "hot" dungeon at the same time with everyone else . therefore some suggested to have easier version .. so everyone can have a feel on what is latest
- not every player has hours to spend in game or chase end game thrill , some just wanted to try/feel/play the content
Geared player PoV players who worked the way up to latest content who has spent countless hours to complete on previous campaign thinks the dungeon should remain difficult so there will be challenge/reason to improve
- Low-Mid tier always has challenging content (at least up to 13 mods of contents) before playing latest content therefore keeping the content hard and for players who deserved it ..at some point low-mid players will get there...
- having simple tier such as demogorgon/msva dont work as people will normally go for easier version for low-chance of getting loot as it will ends faster. without chance of dropping good rewards people will not go for it at all..
My Suggestion.. Why not has model like Barovia hunts where players can have item to push up difficulties and increases reward, the dungeon can remain as it difficulties level but option to increase difficulties by adding more item/cards
- just like Barovia hunts geared players will include low-mid tier players for their card/poster contribution. Geared players will get more thrill and rewards ..while low-mid players get 1st hand experience on the full dungeon and chances to learn and maybe one day can run it with friends.
Content has never been so difficult, nor is it going to be ever.. castle ravenloft has a few quirks going on which I consider unfair (ppl falling off from the nightmare room on a prone state right onto an ardor explosion is so stupid and these things during transition phases have been a problem from svardborg) and the bats which I have considered a bug unnecessarily calling for a scroll usage. If you have 5 competent players who know the in and outs of their class nothing is going to stop them from ever completing anything.
0
therealprotexMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 526Arc User
edited August 2018
Cryptic apparently has created a not so small problem for some time now, the new content is too hard for a lot of players as it seems. They did so (I think) because highly geared players were bored when new content was not so hard.
But I also think Cryptic already has provided the blueprint for a solution: the barovian hunting system.
For new mods, create new content in a way that the average casual player is not left out. For completing the content like this, provide the rewards to progress in the campaign, provide new weapon sets and all the stuff that you can get from the new mod. Then add challenges, where a player can choose from as he likes. Increase their difficulty gradually from "Piece of Cake" up to "Ultra Nightmare". Provide rewards accordingly, but provide rewards that does not leave anyone out who could not play "Ultra Nightmare". Provide astral diamons (yes, maybe even refined ADs), refinement stones, even some Zen is thinkable. Be creative about the rewards, make them worthwhile and don't leave anyone out of the new content.
Just my 2 cc.
Edit: Took me only two days to notice that @jase2cool already made the same suggestion. ;-)
Let me see if i got this right.. from what i read so far minus the class balances/META and etc (which i dont wanna touch)
Low-Mid player PoV low-mid tier players which not complete / unlock previous campaign boons/inexperience with dungeon mechanics wanted to experience the latest trend "hot" dungeon at the same time with everyone else . therefore some suggested to have easier version .. so everyone can have a feel on what is latest
- not every player has hours to spend in game or chase end game thrill , some just wanted to try/feel/play the content
Actually, a lot of this PoV isn't so much noobs wanting super-easy mode, it's that even if you have decent gear, done all campaigns, and can play decently, etc., you can still be rather out of luck if you're not playing one of the favored classes (support) and don't have a large network of charitable people around you who are happy(-ish) running with "whatever".
--
Having dungeons with scalable difficulty has been brought up repeatedly. I'm not sure what the hang-up is, but it sounds like some people only feel like content is worth doing if other people are excluded, even if those other people just get a peridot out of it. They say it's about difficulty on one hand, but then it turns into content exclusivity once difficulty scaling is brought up.
It is a MMO and everyone and their grandma deserves the possibility to beat any content without having to pass through anything more.
Is this some kind of political rally? Ok. Mr. T*p I will vote for you! And the answer is no. The grandma don't have the right to beat the content if she's not prepared and don't spent hours and hours preparing, farming her gear, testing her class and learning the dungeons. As the grandma don't have the right the play chess with Bobby Fischer on the first table without playing decades of chess.
If you think the content is too hard go back play WoW mythic raids in a hardcore guild or Eve Online and then come back.
Or wait don't go anywhere because the content was indeed challenging here in old times(beta-mod3). Old CN was still more challenging then recent content because we did't finish it on preview on the day of the release.
I think we do the right way and we have much better content then in mod6-mod9. We have much more Tier3 dungeons now. I would love to see them in legendary versions. We still have lots of power creep and too strong buffs in the game. As mentioned we should have 2 dungeons per mod not only 1. The casuals should use landscape thing to gear up. Its possible. We have lots of hunts, heroics and salvage farm options. And they can use random Queues to farm dungeons.
Let me see if i got this right.. from what i read so far minus the class balances/META and etc (which i dont wanna touch)
Low-Mid player PoV low-mid tier players which not complete / unlock previous campaign boons/inexperience with dungeon mechanics wanted to experience the latest trend "hot" dungeon at the same time with everyone else . therefore some suggested to have easier version .. so everyone can have a feel on what is latest
- not every player has hours to spend in game or chase end game thrill , some just wanted to try/feel/play the content
Geared player PoV players who worked the way up to latest content who has spent countless hours to complete on previous campaign thinks the dungeon should remain difficult so there will be challenge/reason to improve
- Low-Mid tier always has challenging content (at least up to 13 mods of contents) before playing latest content therefore keeping the content hard and for players who deserved it ..at some point low-mid players will get there...
- having simple tier such as demogorgon/msva dont work as people will normally go for easier version for low-chance of getting loot as it will ends faster. without chance of dropping good rewards people will not go for it at all..
My Suggestion.. Why not has model like Barovia hunts where players can have item to push up difficulties and increases reward, the dungeon can remain as it difficulties level but option to increase difficulties by adding more item/cards
- just like Barovia hunts geared players will include low-mid tier players for their card/poster contribution. Geared players will get more thrill and rewards ..while low-mid players get 1st hand experience on the full dungeon and chances to learn and maybe one day can run it with friends.
That would work too. Great idea.
1
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I never encountered so much elitism as under this thread. I really feel sorry for you guys as you are figthing to keep your virtual muscles to be the biggest in the game and to keep everyone out of your backyard.
Glad I had my eyes opened. I thought endgame players in this game are the ones who should help others, I thought this community is cool. Well, now I see it's not. I guess making some game materials doesn't mean you are a better human being, but there are people here who consider themselves superior.
Happy life to all of you. I'll just stick with "plebe" in my guild, who are not worthy of the content which should be exclusive for few people in this game. I'll try to drag their HAMSTER through dungeons, even though we will propably fail. But hey - they are a decent human beings and not total jerks.
Have fun and keep your dungeons to yourself. Us, the unworthy players, we will shut up and go do some campaigns as you commanded to us.
No more response from me. Peace out.
I was avoiding responding to this but you know what, I will humor you:
I never encountered so much elitism as under this thread. I really feel sorry for you guys as you are fighting to ruin the game for others purely out of self interest with no consideration for players who like content other then what you want.
Glad I had my eyes opened. I thought midgame players in this game are the ones who should be the happiest with the state of the game right now as they still have content to run, I thought this community is cool. Well, now I see it's not. I personally feel like not being able to complete all the content doesn't mean you are a better human being, but there are people here who consider themselves superior for that reason.
Happy life to all of you. I'll just stick with my friends, who do not deserve to have any content designed that challenges and engages us since it all must be for you. I'll try to drag myself through boring content with them, even though we have no interest in running any of it and only play because we enjoy running stuff together. But hey, at least they are a decent human beings and not total jerks.
Have fun and keep your dungeons to yourself. Us, the unworthy players, we will shut up and go do dungeons which are as easy as campaigns as you commanded to us.
No more response from me. Peace out.
See, I can do that too. Now try making an argument that appeals to facts and reasoning instead of emotions, because trying to be emotionally manipulative in an argument is a poor argument to begin with, especially in this case where the same argument can be made from both sides.
I don't go around saying, "PVP should be removed from the game" despite the fact that I never play it. Nor do I go around saying, "The foundry should be removed from the game." If either of those areas receive some development time, good for them, it caters towards those parts of the community, even if it is not for me. So, stop trying to make all the content in the game casual, just because it suits your personal agenda.
If everyone had your mindset where they expected to be carried then nobody would ever complete anything because nobody would work to learn the content. Let that sink in for a moment.
Cryptic apparently has created a not so small problem for some time now, the new content is too hard for a lot of players as it seems. They did so (I think) because highly geared players were bored when new content was not so hard.
But I also think Cryptic already has provided the blueprint for a solution: the barovian hunting system.
For new mods, create new content in a way that the average casual player is not left out. For completing the content like this, provide the rewards to progress in the campaign, provide new weapon sets and all the stuff that you can get from the new mod. Then add challenges, where a player can choose from as he likes. Increase their difficulty gradually from "Piece of Cake" up to "Ultra Nightmare". Provide rewards accordingly, but provide rewards that does not leave anyone out who could not play "Ultra Nightmare". Provide astral diamons (yes, maybe even refined ADs), refinement stones, even some Zen is thinkable. Be creative about the rewards, make them worthwhile and don't leave anyone out of the new content.
Just my 2 cc.
Edit: Took me only two days to notice that @jase2cool already made the same suggestion. ;-)
It does seem this would be an idea all could get behind because it does not go out of its way to exclude anyone . Top end player get the difficulty they desire while the up and commers get to test them self going forward. As for myself being an older player back to D&D days I like to follow the Neverwinter story and dungeons are a big part of that for me would be nice to set it at a level that I could be able to go and adjust to push my own skill sets going forward. As it stand for now I will just keep doing things a Mod. or two back. But think this idea would benefit all if people would see its merits.
I never encountered so much elitism as under this thread. I really feel sorry for you guys as you are figthing to keep your virtual muscles to be the biggest in the game and to keep everyone out of your backyard.
Glad I had my eyes opened. I thought endgame players in this game are the ones who should help others, I thought this community is cool. Well, now I see it's not. I guess making some game materials doesn't mean you are a better human being, but there are people here who consider themselves superior.
Happy life to all of you. I'll just stick with "plebe" in my guild, who are not worthy of the content which should be exclusive for few people in this game. I'll try to drag their HAMSTER through dungeons, even though we will propably fail. But hey - they are a decent human beings and not total jerks.
Have fun and keep your dungeons to yourself. Us, the unworthy players, we will shut up and go do some campaigns as you commanded to us.
No more response from me. Peace out.
I was avoiding responding to this but you know what, I will humor you:
I never encountered so much elitism as under this thread. I really feel sorry for you guys as you are fighting to ruin the game for others purely out of self interest with no consideration for players who like content other then what you want.
Glad I had my eyes opened. I thought midgame players in this game are the ones who should be the happiest with the state of the game right now as they still have content to run, I thought this community is cool. Well, now I see it's not. I personally feel like not being able to complete all the content doesn't mean you are a better human being, but there are people here who consider themselves superior for that reason.
Happy life to all of you. I'll just stick with my friends, who do not deserve to have any content designed that challenges and engages us since it all must be for you. I'll try to drag myself through boring content with them, even though we have no interest in running any of it and only play because we enjoy running stuff together. But hey, at least they are a decent human beings and not total jerks.
Have fun and keep your dungeons to yourself. Us, the unworthy players, we will shut up and go do dungeons which are as easy as campaigns as you commanded to us.
No more response from me. Peace out.
See, I can do that too. Now try making an argument that appeals to facts and reasoning instead of emotions, because trying to be emotionally manipulative in an argument is a poor argument to begin with, especially in this case where the same argument can be made from both sides.
I don't go around saying, "PVP should be removed from the game" despite the fact that I never play it. Nor do I go around saying, "The foundry should be removed from the game." If either of those areas receive some development time, good for them, it caters towards those parts of the community, even if it is not for me. So, stop trying to make all the content in the game casual, just because it suits your personal agenda.
If everyone had your mindset where they expected to be carried then nobody would ever complete anything because nobody would work to learn the content. Let that sink in for a moment.
Sometimes Fab, its not about argument. Its about solving the problem. People post this kind of topic up here to find answer to their problem and not to argue with anyone. U might be good at theorycrafting and math but when it comes to socializing and problem solving, u have much to learn from @jase2cool. A problem can be a real pain to solve when people aren't here to solve it but to argue. Just saying.
Comments
Given that the developers only have so much time to work on things:
Rather than trying to balance classes again (how many times have we done that?), release more content that isn't "grindy" campaign quests. Most people can't wait to be finished with that (grindy campaigns) after the first few days anyways. Offer a variety of dungeons so that there is something for everyone to run and enjoy.
As much as I personally feel that all new content should be focused around "end-game" players, so that the game can retain their most committed player-base and offer the most incentive for self-progression (and Zen purchases lol), I will entertain everyone with a "happy medium" solution to try and exemplify what is important here (see below at the end of this post).
Imagine if each mod came with 6 dungeons, 1 EToS level, 2 MSP level, and 3 CR level. Make all the rewards scale well, and exclusive to that content. The market will level those prices out, even the "EToS level grinders" can have something exclusive that will sell for at least a bit. We need to avoid lower-tier dungeons being more profitable to run though, as stated by other players here. The "CR level people", they will be happy too. That being said, the "hardest" content is already too easy for many players. Therefore, since a variety is offered, make one or two of those MUCH more difficult to run than CR (and greatly more rewarding). The problem is solved, everyone gets new content, and all players are offered appropriate challenges, and appropriate rewards. This way, you can offer a challenge/new content to the "try-hards" and "casuals" at the same time. More importantly, we would get more content! Requesting exactly that, has been a super common theme among players who have been around for awhile (the die-hard Neverwinter fans).
By the way, the reason I spread them out like 1, 2, 3 is because there already TONS of content at the lower levels of progression. Additionally, all of the "top-tier" stuff will eventually be played by everyone and will remain "playable" longer. That is just common sense for the developers, in fact, the best case scenario would be 6 new "top-tier" dungeons. Again though, I am trying to offer some "happy medium" at the very least.
THIS is very important, please consider this as a reality.
You simply cannot change the fact that some players will spend countless hours outside of the game optimizing every little detail of everything. Seriously, you can't stop players from doing that. You shouldn't either, in my opinion. What is the problem with that? You also can't stop the fact that some people want to lay down in bed, chatting with friends, casually running content together, all without ever spending a second (outside of the game) researching their options for optimal character/group development. There is no reason to hinder either one of those players. Currently, the only one of those players that is hindered is the FIRST ONE (the "try-hards"). People that play this game, loosely put, to the fullest, have ZERO content to run. You need to have content that matches both of those types of players' desires. You can't do that with one dungeon, or one skirmish, no matter how much you adjust classes. The second type of player (the casual one), already has 7 different epic dungeons/skirmishes available to them.
With this "happy medium", "end-gamers" will finally have some content to run, rather than waiting for something tough enough to come out and thinking "maybe next mod" over and over. Additionally, players that feel like they are so behind that the "new" stuff is impossible for 3 mods will have something new to run!
Now, this is where I am attempting to "exemplify what is important here (see below at the end of this post)".
I hope everyone can see that adjusting (this or that) won't change the fact that players will continue to play how they wish. You can only way to satisfy a varied video game population with...varied content. This will mean that not all content will be appropriate for all players, at the time of release. So what? Everyone will get something new, and have something to work towards. You can't have a game where all content is equally completed by all players, not a single person would have motivation for progression. The developers of this game only have a certain amount of time to put towards improving Neverwinter. At the moment, we need more end-game content, we do. Some players are feeling like they can't handle the end-game content. If that is the case, watch some YouTube videos, read some guides, test some stuff, and learn how to play better. It really isn't that hard. People who are making the "hardest" content in this game look trivial are not gods, they aren't all-knowing or something. It really isn't that difficult. You can do it too!!!
Please, understand that adjusting classes (even if there is some slight imbalance) is not going to get you into end-game groups. More content however, will help everyone enjoy them game exponentially.
There is no need, for him/her to do it, unless he/she is doing just for fun, and lets say it is an dps char he/she would beat the HAMSTER out of the adds and the bosses, even played single handed and controlling the mouse/controller with the nose....
mSva is for me nowadays outdated, there is far better gear and far better weapons aviable ingame, why should i run it?
I dunno exactly but with two chars you have maybe enough seals of the brave, and you could buy gear and weapons for it in smth like an week.
And may i ask you also, where would be the progress, the learning factor, for an "low" or "mid" geared player, if everytime a few high geared chars and build with the best aviable guide for their class would join?
I bet they would start:
a) An perfect cheerleading choreography, cheering these players, bc they carried them so easily through the content.
b) They start complaining how "elitist" they are, pay2win only players, cheater...and so on.
Jokes aside, i was always more an fan, that people should have problems at the beginning, beating content.
Yes it is an game, a game should be fun, bc it is not an job.
But i have noticed by myself, that alot of players are not wipe resistence anymore, maybe it was this "running cloak tower with 20+ Chars/day and make Quazillions of Ad and then i am buying all the stuff from the AH, without being in an higher Tier dungeon" attitude.
And then all of an sudden they are in FBI & Co. and then they noticed, that the Adds are really fighting back, and they have really something to do.
Here is the deal. This game is not designed for your personal wishes. There are casual gamers, advanced gamers and minmaxers who try to get the best effect out of their class, gear, build and party compositions.
You have to give every group something to do, to keep them playing the game, otherwise the game dies. You want me to support my claim? Here it goes.
Before I started NW I played another MMORPG. It had tiered dungeons. To beat endontend there was ONE viable party composition for the 10 player raids. You had to run the dungeons for weeks or month, before you knew the mechanics, to beat them. EVERY player in this group had to have BIS gear, including multiple sets, builds etc. for various groups of mobs. You had to time your actions by seconds. Every one of the 10 players had to be at the highest level of his game. TS was mandatory. If you did screw up once, you might have wasted hours of game time. If one player stopped playing, you hade to 'train/ gear up' the replacement for weeks, before you could beat the dungeon again or hope for one of the other 5% players, to switch teams. Switch teams? You could complete every dungeon ONCE per character per week, so there was no 'helping out' another raid.
This game had maybe 5% of player, who played at this level. 80% of players, who were content with the way things were and 15% complaining about 'elitism' etc. The developers looked at the numbers and said ' these 5% take up 50% of our work, bc we have to create an extra tier for them, testing the limits of playability and they bring 10-20% of our revenue, so screw them, we will make everything easy, so all players can do everything.
Guess what happend. These 5% stopped playing, bc they got bored. Guess what was the result. 40-60% of the player base left the game. Now you might ask, 'how should 5% have an impact of this magnitude on the community?'.
Look at our forum. Look, who contributes guides, tips and how to do its. It is these 5%. They test everything and share their findings, based on tests. A casual player does not bother, to do this and a 'XY might be swell' does not help as much as hard facts provided by these player.
Look at guilds. You go online and you want to chat to a friend. Who is online? The 5%. Thes spent way more time in game, then most casual players. If no one is online, well you will either look for another guild or stop playing.
Look ad dungeon runs. Who is there, to tell you, how the mechanics work the 5%. They tested it and share their findings.
If you need tips for your character, you dont ask BOB, you will ask them.
If a dungeon is to hard for you and your pals, you will ask one of them to join your group, to help out.
If all of the above is missing, bc these 5% left the game many of the other players will follow. I have seen this happening and it is sad.
If you are one of the 5% or with their mindset, this game is really easy and forgiving. If you are one of the rest, you should be gratefull, that this game is so easy, that you can beat the endconted with a decent ammount of gear and knowledge and various party compositions.
I am not one of these 5% anymore, bc I dont have the time it needs to stay there and frankly, bc this game does not need you to be one of them, to beat endcontend, but I know and apriciate their effort and you should do too. Let them have something to do and dont complain, that this game is not designed jst for your personal needs.
This was very interesting read, I always was in phase with that thought, even when I wasn't part of the 5%.
I'd add to your great summary that the 5% also provide a lot of items on the Auction House, thus having a huge role in the economy. The high-dungeons-specific items like Key of Stars, and now Thirst and other artifact gear come essentially from the 5%, people that run this kind of content.
All of the MW items come from the 5%. I can't think of a non-hardcore player that have MW5 unlocked and actively crafting and selling this gear, considering the amount of effort, ressources and time needed.
The 5% have a huge contribution to the game economy, especially when it comes to high-end items like MW/Dungeon-specific stuff, and from lockboxes.
Remove these, you remove a very big part of the high quality items on the AH.
And you say content is easy? No, content is being MADE EASY once you take OP and DC into your party. And for other people that is the only way to play since they aren’t playing this oh so meticulously. And they shouldn’t in my opinion due to the way Cryptic changes some very intricate things once they become useful. There is no diversity there. People still look for support characters exclusively. And I do believe that Content weapon introduced in the new MOD should be accessible to everyone, as it was the case in all previous mods. The exclusivity should befall only and only people who took time and effort to build materials and resources. Weapons should be that hard to obtain, more so if they are ARTIFACT weapons to begin with and EVEN MORE SO if they are also weapons which need restoring.
Whose idea of FUN is that one? No, it doesn’t tell me that you’re an amazing playing or that you’re great if you obtain one. It just tells me that you have way too much time and friends who are completely okay with playing support characters.
No, I do not think that people should be locked out of the content. What you’re suggesting is downright crazy. Cryptic needs new playerbase with each new mod and telling them “play for 2 years in order to enter this one dungeon” is not the way to do it. I’ve seen many new players leaving rather easily due to this.
Basically what you’re suggesting is that things should be the way they are now, which is bollocks. No, I do not think that people should defeat dungeons after they obtain newer gear. I think that they should play dungeons once the dungeons become available and have the ability to obtain the new gear in order to beat the new dungeons easily. And in order to obtain this new gear once should go through the campaign itself, which would take a month or less to complete. Similarly to how it was done for MSP.
MSP is the most complete campaign I’ve seen to this day and it had so many things to do and work your way through in order to complete it. And it had a VARIETY of weapons to choose from.
Every campaign should be like that and also offer various ACHIEVEMENTS for people who complete every single thing from the campaign.
And if you can’t play it for an entire day and collect things, that’s okay, just get a quest, finish it in 10 minutes, and play once you can again.
Cloaked Ascendency, to this day, remains the best campaign in the game. The worst being Storm King. And the easiest being Barovia. This is a flawed logic.
The campaigns aren’t made to be “for different people”. You’re assuming too much and trying to impose your opinion as a fact, which doesn’t work like that unfortunately.
In order to understand the necessity for campaigns, their primary orientation is to progress through the storyline which tries to be following the WotC current promotional material. This is the primary goal of developers, too, and nearly all resources go into this. Campaigns are the first and most important content in the game where the most work is being done, including graphical, vocal and technical aspects that should be fitting to the theme of the current DnD module.
Just because they aren’t the hardest content in the game it shouldn’t mean that they aren’t important.
You may enjoy certain aspects of the game yourself more than some other aspects, but in reality that doesn’t mean that one aspect is less good in comparison. There is nothing, absolutely nothing wrong in playing anything that the game offers.
No, I do not agree that people should be excluded from playing Epic Dungeon content.
This is the only content where a lot of heat is produced about and the only content in the game which needs constant tweaking CLASS-wise. And as such the Epic Content becomes pretty much the only content in the game that needs adjusting with both developers and community help.
This is why Epic Dungeon content should possess certain polls which ask people about their experience and enjoyment, so that developers can gather them and present them in a neat manner to their higher-ups. And it can explain the problematics better and actually help make content greater. It takes both developer and community to have more patience and ability to understand each other.
And I do not think that their resources should be used just to widen the difference between the players because that would inevitably destroy the economy.
They know this and with each new mod the previous content becomes more accessible. The game is devised around CASUAL players first and foremost, as they are the greater majority. The game isn’t made for the elitists and speedrunners. That’s just a component that’s not important to anyone except to the elitists and speedruners themselves. The game and community should not suffer due to such people’s agenda to have better and harder content.
It if happens, it happens. If it doesn’t happen, make a viable and CATIOUS explanation as to what/how you’d like to see content going on whilst constantly remembering that this ISN’T YOUR GAME, you are JUST A PLAYER. You are JUST ONE player. Exploiters and speedrunners have been banned before, too.
If you find the game to be TOO EASY, that is too vague and isn’t an explanation nor it tries to find/narrow down what makes the content itself easy.
Since I’ve already done it, it’s rather simple – content is requiring OP/DC combo.
Three points
- Power sharing / (De)buffs.
- Content itself being too hard (hard hitting mobs, CC immune mobs, making things rather one-sided – either get a tank or die)
- Too many classes.
The content should be made in order to require only one support for the hardest content, and no more than two at most for those who really want to make things super-smooth. The content should be giving more to the SKILLFULL players by allowing them to FACE danger and use the dodge mechanics to their great benefit. The game shouldn’t be revolving around
- Tank healing you
- Tank taking ALL the damage
- You hiding behind a tank at all times
- Tank being an absolute necessity (what are potions, life steal, defense, dodge, deflect used for then? Vanity points? Placeholder for laughs?)
- Mobs oneshotting you
- CC immune mobs when entire class is CC infused, making CC obsolete and never used because God knows why
- Healer buffing you
- Healer increasing your damage by 2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10X more
- Healer not really playing a healer but more of a buffer.
- Buffer + Healer i.e. 2 x DC
- Healer + Tank giving you 200.000 Power which you’d otherwise never be able to attain, not even for 20+ mods nor gear.
- Healer + Tank making you A GOD
- Healer + Tank switching their roles, respectfully.
- Healer + Tank being a necessity to beat content
- Healer + Tank having all the monopoly on the Epic Dungeon content, despite being minority.
- Healer + Tank ordering, demanding or giving ultimatums that they will leave or not play unless you do what they want.
So, yeah, I do think that the game would be FAR better without Healer + Tank combo (let’s call them healer + Tank, they aren’t really doing that, they’re buff placements providing safety and damage with people disliking playing as them, but being forced to in order to see the pretty dungeon).
Pardon my mistakes in typing, the autocorrect took more liberty than allowed.
Although this would be okay in my book if the classes were so-so appropriate and this required SKILL to do, this isn't the case as the case is that Dungeons are made with the current support meta at hand. The very support meta that was nerfed not once but twice. And the same support meta which doesn't allow more party composition to happen.
So asking that things only become harder without addressing the problems at the root of the problem is basically being inconsiderate of other people playing or having equal chances to get to the content in order to prove themselves.
The content shouldn't be excluded from people because they can't find a specific class to play with or if that specific class starts demanding unreasonable things or else it goes out of the dungeon.
What happened recently? People ask only to play ReQ with only, and only TonG. If they don't get it, they start over, avoid playing it until they get it.
This is not SKILL or ELITISM, this is downright EXPLOIT.
And people are forced to do it because it is easier to play it than wait other folk to gather and play either CR, which they usually can't get past sisters, or CODG which is not played because "oh no, time!".
This is the problem of
a ) Design (on several levels and clustering options)
b ) Player behavior in LFG.
And it becomes exploit galore UNTIL it becomes meta. And then people try to defend it without bringing anything to the table explaining why it's a good thing. I am terribly sorry, but stating that you are only playing one small part of the game does mean that you are acting in a rather elitist manner and that other person is correct in stating that this is not the way to go about when you're trying to provide some BALANCING OUT solutions.
And this is blatantly obvious, so I do not see why you got that defensive when I told you that you're not really into balancing out things as those aren't your cup of tea. And as I stated it is completely okay if it isn't. If you want it to be of any value in this topic you HAVE to indulge yourself in playing (and helping) other people regarding all content in order to understand and SEE the disparity among the players. You can't just say "i'm going to play this content, use my knowledge, and nobody else but chosen few can play it successfully".
^^ That is childish and doesn't help anything. If you do not find the game offering you challenges, perhaps find a game that better suits your skills. This game is devised around people who want to enjoy it with families and friends without playing it meticulously and this form of elitism can only be damaging to the rest of the people.
It is a MMO and everyone and their grandma deserves the possibility to beat any content without having to pass through anything more.
Just look at how much time it takes to finish all campaigns, get all boons? It is already a year of playing. Who will stay for that long and keep their attention getting through everything only to find themselves not being able to play it unless they've got what it takes?
Only the content taking 10+ people should be hard, the EPIC Dungeons taking 5 people should be more manageable with each class having the ability to beat it by utilizing their BUILD.
So a bit of defense, a bit of health, a bit of deflect etc. Make yourself a better player by utilizing micromanagement and equipment.
Otherwise you're only going to get people chasing after POWER options disregarding everything that's not deflect/defense unless it's for PVP. Heck, even Paladins at the moment are only building POWER at all times. I do not want that my BUILD revolves around using another person's build. I do not want another person to give me an attribute that I need. I do not want to only play EPIC DUNGEON content. That's rather secluded, conservative and doesn't provide anything fun or equal in the longer run.
And you get NERF. Power nerf. Another bonding nerf. Nerf nerf nerf. Why is that a thing? Stop in in it's root.
And this is something that I know that you do not understand nor want to understand, but I hope that other people can also understand your views which are, unfortunately, rather secular and elitist. I hope you can acknowledge this as it's not really offering a handshake. You just want the things you want without considering what others think or want to do, which I find to be uncanny of anyone who's in any position to lead anyone else.
Compromises have to be made at all times, both in life and game. That's the only way to make actual progress.
MASS MULTIPLAYER, the very name defines that creating content for people to play together is valid and good. This is the primary option. You have the option to seclude yourself from entire game and play just Epic Dungeons, but from that standpoint I do think that you're losing a lot and this is just my personal opinion. I've found great enjoyment in helping other people on various maps and in various content. I do not play NWO to prove anything, I've already proven both to myself and people I care for the most that I'm a great player, so I do not suffer from such youngster necessity to explain just how "awesome I am" for beating some hard content. That defeats it purpose.
I'm playing the game to waste time and I like the way this game caters to the feeling of older cRPGs which used similar mechanics since this is rarely the case in modern RPGs of any kind. I like how this game feels and that's the only thing that matters to me. I've found myself playing only one class effectively and I stick with it.
Now
1) Although this might be true, the point is for everyone to be able to play the content as it is available for everyone once they reach particular Item Level score and campaign completion. As such it is made for everyone and not just for the most elite players. So, no, this content IS NOT made only for people who enjoy the hardest content.
2) I'm sorry, but all of this is gray area since you also have content which with it's RNG system would take months to complete. yesterday only I beat over 4.000 Batiri not to get one single Batiri hunt component. The content doesn't necessarily have to be hard and unbeatable in order to discourage someone from obtaining something. Furthermore there is always the RNG system included at the end, so there is no real prize once you beat the content as most items dropping are not really worth it. People salvage them.
3) This is the worst thing. I've seen people with all R14s asking to get into parties and they can because of their IL only to find them COMPLETELY ignorant on how to play class. I dislike this as it doesn't really teach people to play the game, it only teaches them to be even more ignorant, angry and doesn't really help them to solve anything in the meantime. In all truth, not being able to beat a campaign in a time-span is what usually makes people to purchase things, or simply getting things altogether. however, I do not know this and I doubt you also know on what people usually spend most money on, but reasonably I think it's VIPs and lockboses the most. I doubt that people spend a lot of money on Epic Dungeon content since most of the gear is BOA/BOE and you can't buy it. Unless they are buying a Stronghold weapon, which is rather rare since they wouldn't even know where or how to find one, I doubt that they'd be interested to spend anything.
4) This means nothing and it's too vague. How can we decide what "longevity" is? The game's economy player-wise thrives on exclusivity and most often than not it's catering to people already having their professions maxed out and being able to gather resources asap. And if you do it asap as the new MOD introduces itself, prices go skyhigh! AAnd as soon as you do it there are better chances for you to obtain something. So, playing "elitistically" usually takes one to two days to obtain everything in NWO. This I found to be true when I actually want to use my skills to the fullest.
When I do not want to do so I simply enjoy playing the game for what it is without thinking whether "something's dead" or not.
It makes no sense to demand this game to be something it is not. no. Instead what makes sense is to give constructive FEEDBACK so that the content isn't banalized to be "either this or that" with conditions. If it allows casual play, good.
Allow the elitist players to beat the content with support chars even 10 minutes faster than me, but also allow me to beat it in any party composition so that I do not have to wait entire day to find that one godsend DC/OP willing to play as I will
a) hold my wallet tight
b) wait another 3-4 mods to beat content I'm interested in due to a fact that always happened in NWO - returning or new players have it easiest!
I took a long pause of 2 years only to build my char in a month or two to 16K IL.
If I want to build a character, take time and effort, what's the purpose of doing it if another 2 characters can give me 3-4 x the power I would actually build?
How does that make me a good player? How does that teach ANYONE to micromanage and play meticulously? How does that cater to the new playerbase? I do not like it as it doesn't prove anything for my skill. It's another person's power and buff which is a bit too much if you'd ask me, and it's not really skill. This is why I do not want to use it and this is why I do not like playing Epic Dungeons. Actually it's one of the reasons.
In the topic I've proven that I can beat dungeons, so it's not my build, but my stubborn. If you want to blame me for anything, blame me for being stubbornly against other people taking my hand through dungeons.
The progress, firstly, is simply being able to complete the content. How many runs did it take you to get the timing on the mechanics down? How long will it take the lower geared/new players to learn how to run this content when they sit in queue for their entire play session & it never pops? Or if they lose one after another party member until the other members of the party abandon the instance? 0 runs = 0 experience.
Obviously if you take abuse, or someone doesn't listen to good advice, you are free to leave. But, kicking the abusive player would be a better option, so the rest of the party does learn something. & then you have 4 more players that can help the rest of those struggling with the content. Is that not worth 1/2 hour of your time?
The only players that end up in FBI with no clue that mobs fight back are wallet warriors running their first toon. Cloak Tower didn't do anyone any favors. Bu long before ant player got 5, let alone 20 toons, they would have gotten into ETOS, or EGWD. That is the real clue-by-four for those players sheltered by the "elitist", end-game players choosing to run leveling dungeons for endless AD, without even taking the time to explain what a skill node was. Or how to collect crystals & flowers for the 2 extra chests. Or where the 2 chest protected by orcs are. You would be surprised how many level 70 toons I have met that never even knew. Nobody is asking you to run the content for them. Run it with them, & try not to leave them as ignorant of how the game works as you found them. Otherwise... all the other gripes... are your own fault.
Want to ask for buffs for archery, that too will be a valid request, as it was requested several times, open a thread.
Want to ask for change to the buffs and stats, which will affect the viability of archery spec directly, even more valid request, go for it, because we did it already, there are even links in this thread, buried somewhere among the nonsense.
Where have you been when we requested those things, and specifically to level the play field, and help specs like Archery which under-performs ? I've been asking for diminishing returns for stats and buffs for what, over 2 years now, so where were you?
Want to address the issues that were brought up to your proposals more than useless "Don't worry" which is as useful to supporting an argument as a buffer TR, please do. Saying "Don't worry, they will progress, even though there is no actual need" is just false, when already 'many' do not progress beyond what is necessary and the game half dead because the lack of progress path.
So I wonder why the attitude of "I deserve everything the same as the people who put ten times the time/money than me" meets with resistance.
BTW the guild I'm in has 2 Archery HRs, and they are not excluded from anything, whatever they want to join, they are always more than welcome. Does the path, or fundamental of game mechanics should be changed so they wont feel like fifth wheel, ofc, and sooner the better, but it has nothing to do with making content easier, they put the time in their chars, they shouldn't get a 'baby' version of the content. They should feel useful in the same content as the rest. Yet again, this is class balance and mechanics issue.
Understanding class synergy, and 'meta' is what allows to compensate for difference of gear, difference of skill (and it will always be varied), difference of specs and builds. Each compensate for the others.
I would rather fail it with friends / guildies, at least then we tried, had fun, perhaps learned something and will try another time, than random and fall on some moron that will blame everyone and everything, create miserable atmosphere, and ruin the expiriance, even if the run will be successful.
1. I do it all the time in the context of the guild, this is what it's for, and most of my CR runs had someone who is first time there, and most took much longer that those in the videos. But in a guild there is communication, and I will not waste half hour per run voting and suffering, out of my play time when now I play less than 10 hours per week, when even if I spend half hour making a group of guildies / friends, I know for sure, it will not be a bad expiriance even if it fails. More so, if I see a specific problem, I can leave so a guildy with a more complimenting class can swap with me (or some who plays several classes can swap) and I'm more than happy to see 4 friends finish a thought run (Yes, yes, that evil group synergy understanding can be useful, how dare it).
2. How one judges a good advice? Or abuse? When even simple things like pleading & begging for people to stop the most mistimed RAs in history gives only more RAs and probably few words about hamsters and parental lineage and occupation. No thanks. "Try to not leave them ignorant of how the game works". Funny that you mentioned that, you for example have a lot of time commuting to your place of learning, 2 hours per day you've mentioned? A lot of time spent on reading the forums (nothing against it), did you happen to read the links I've provided two posts ago?
Have you ever bothered with the countless videos and guides of MSVA mechanics, cradle, push pull, ras nisi, or every other thing out there?
When people spend days editing hour long video for new players that reach 70, (like strifes) or entire channels like Sumes, and many others or detailed dungeon guides, it is amazing how some people still come and still demand more of others time.
Ofc, not everyone, there are normal people, from the total random person in my last RQ FBI who probably thought I was going to kick him when I've asked if it's his completely first run or first on alt", but was honest and polite, and go the full explanation of what is going on on the fly.
But still, how about before you rear that ugly generalizing mentality of "It's all 'their' fault", first check who, and how much time people spend to help others, in first runs, or explaining things in general, or making guides, both for classes and content.
b: Preview. Server.
c: Your. Experience.
d: Which is why there are 13 topics on the first 3 pages of a forum search for "leavers."
e: Gear was lower. Which is why the whole power-sharing is even a thing. Also why, end-gamers were always whining at the noobz to "finish your boons, dammit!"
f: Now. PvP, Tiamat, & MSVA are some of the content that you could only get into *quickly* if you were in a private group. The rest of us... Had to beg for ppl to queue in zone chat. Tiamat was one that there were players doing that 6 months ago... just before Random Queues became a thing. What a coincidence!
g: 1) How nice for your guild. How sad for everyone that is not in your guild. Charity does not end at home. I help my guildies too. I also help players in zone chat & players I will probably never run with again. Some of them do send me very nice e-mails tho
g: 2) Like everyone else, you judge abuse (or good advice) from your own perspective. If words like "elitist" hurt your feelings, that's okay. If someone tells you to climb the furniture in CN to avoid the shambling hordes, & you don't, that's on you.
h: 2 posts ago before, or after they split the thread? Personally, I prefer not to have my first experience with a game be watching other ppl playing it. I do watch YouTube videos. Not on the bus, mind you. We don't have public Wi-Fi here. I do appreciate the time that goes into them. I subscribe if they are not complete idiots, like the one telling ppl to farm platinum bowls fro AD
I wasn't aware that on the preview server there is this magical guide with infinite expiriance, who will show all newcomers how to do things and guide them one by one to all new content. And human nature didn't change in a mod, 2, or ten, pugs will always be faster to leave while premades will be more inclined to try again and learn.
Nothing is different in new content, if it was CR for the well geared, or FBI/Tomb for the less geared. Except that doing tomb / FBI now is much easier than it was when it was new, when now the starting gear is mostly at the same level as was BiS long ago. You implied that it's those geared elitists with their meta, from what I see, it's those who desperately need the AD from RQ, those who value their time more than basic human curtsy, those who mainly solo/pug and who can't handle challenge and ask for everything to be easier, hmm, reminds me of... Power sharing has nothing to do with this, and boons are the most straight forward progress path, allowing to get into higher tier content and gear.
Here is the mentality, someone/everyone give valid advice, that every new players should actually listen to, and it's called "Whine" and 'noobz', this is the mentality for which I avoid the PuGs.. Or you could have join some of the public channels, who on double currency only ran tiamat. Or you could have formed a group and do it. There is no 'rest of us', everyone started the same, when need a group to go somewhere, you choose to beg and complain, I choose to form a group and go there. 1. How good for you, how sad for everyone else, shame though that you see helping others as charity. Wait, I'm not sure I understand, calling someone elitist or anything while knowing it hurts their feelings is ok, but waking up some zombies in CN is not? Before. Completely valid, but life is compromise, you can't expect to have the same chance as someone who prepared in advance, or expect that for everyone new there will be always someone experienced to guide. Meaning that there is more chance of failure, and it's up to everyone to look what they want to do with their time, and the trade-offs. 1. While it's great that people expiriance the dungeons with all their intricacies, similar like the old CN tours with bat caves and hidden chests, which add to the expiriance of the game, the chests there will not help a low level player, they will outlevel anything there in hours at most.
2. What will you say, if you are in FBI, last boss, and someone keeps destroying the Ice, and as a result the party wipes again and again, while you try again and again explain them how the ice must be kept standing and then hide behind it, then later the same person complains in zone that FBI is too hard and should be nerfed?
Glad I had my eyes opened. I thought endgame players in this game are the ones who should help others, I thought this community is cool. Well, now I see it's not. I guess making some game materials doesn't mean you are a better human being, but there are people here who consider themselves superior.
Happy life to all of you. I'll just stick with "plebe" in my guild, who are not worthy of the content which should be exclusive for few people in this game. I'll try to drag their <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> through dungeons, even though we will propably fail. But hey - they are a decent human beings and not total jerks.
Have fun and keep your dungeons to yourself. Us, the unworthy players, we will shut up and go do some campaigns as you commanded to us.
No more response from me. Peace out.
"I thought endgame players in this game are the ones who should help others"
Everyone can help others, so lets see what behind that statement, lets compare, lets look what you did, and what others. Lets see who just throws HAMSTER, claiming they are decent humans, who the jerks are.
I've run a lot of dungeons, failed a lot too, solve the issues brought up for tiered content, and I'm all for it, but could it be that a better solution was offered? Can't be, why read? reading will bring to a solution, and then how can people blame the others.. I care less about content and more about a community, and nothing triggers me more than entitled jerks who generalize, throw HAMSTER on others without knowing anything, and think they are better morally just because they can't run part of the content, those who rather generalize posters and people, than issues (yes like I'm doing now, unfortunately), those who will blame everyone for their issues but will never look at themselves.
Peace out, Good riddance.
Once more how about these "elitist" players should help the "low" chars or "Casuals" or "newbies"...the funny truth is...you are arguing (or better said you are not, bc for me it is more an insult) against players that are helping these people now for an long time, with guides, knowledgesharing, and how to improve chars/playstyle....
What more should they do?
Taking every new, casual player by the hand, like in the Kindergarden from the beginning of an dungeon up to the Lootchest after beating the final boss, and apologize then if there is not the sweet loot in it?
So let me (once more) tell you an true story from me:
A couple of days ago i was bored, so i decided to try out an random q with my dps char bc i made an race change and maximising the ability scores for my class and i wanted to to test it.
So i came in an group in Dwarven Throne skirmish..and all i did was only helping out so that it was safe an tripple gold run, nothing more...
After the run one of them pm'ed me with. "Oh for such an high gs you had an louzy dps!!!"
I tried to explain him, that i wasn't playing serious and i am not here to carry new players (he told me he was new to the game and fresh lvl 70, giuldless, no high enchants no weapon, no armor enchant), through any content, bc if i had played serious he had gone afk during the skirm...
Long story short, i invited him then to an guildrun in CN, i was sending him an few R8 enchants and an cheap armor enchant, bc he had not the minimal gs for CN.
We went in and this time i was playing serious, and even if i am now near 50 years old...i am still able to hold the speed with younger guildmates..
After the run i asked himif he had fun, bc he had nothing more to do to pick up some gold (and green stuff....obviously).
And (i was not surprised) he answered with:
"No bc it was too fast and i couldn't beat an single opponent."
So may i ask you once more @Wintersmoke or @wizardlvl80#5963 should every New Player, every Casual being constantly carried through the content from the "Elitist", evil "HighGeared pay2win" Players up to an point that they will never learn something, or start being a little more wipe resistant if something going wrong?
or
Let them "them" play together, grow together, by making the same mistakes everyone made in the past and learning from these mistakes.
think abot that.
To the Youtube video uploaders, even the ones who I do not like in the game on a personal level, thank you.
To that particular breed of gamer who finds enjoyment in squeezing out every last bit of synergy for any scenario so that others, who will never have the options in AD, gear, mount...choices, so that we have the freedom to be useful in the style and choice of our own play in our own time, thank you.
To the casual player, who comes into Neverwinter, amazed by its combat system, its rich intertwined lore, its fast progression, thanks for choosing this game as your limited entertainment.
To my guild leader and my guild mates, thanks for being cool. Yes, I am part of Micky1poo's guild, and I can say, without any blushing or attempt to kiss HAMSTER, that it is the best guild I have been apart of in the game.
To my fellow GF theory crafters, even the PvP ones, from whom I glean knowledge: Mini, Anri, LILITH, Tombs, and...especially Morks, thanks. Even if I don't follow (all of) what you do, I appreciate you sharing it.
To the foundry authors who want to breathe life back into a part of the game which is so neglected, thanks! Almost no rewards for me, and I just love seeing what you guys come up with.
My choice of gaming and the time I put into it as a means of voluntary entertainment is enriched because of all your efforts.
Peace!
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
ii: Available, yes. Own a computer that has enuff HAMSTER to run both preview & live game, no. Have enuff time to re-download the game every week, alas also no.
There is a magical source of learning available to help new players... experienced players. I thought you liked helping...
iii: Human nature has not changed in 20k years. Some ppl are willing to sacrifice their needs for the best interests of the group, and some are not.
iv: You implied that because you are "good" & because all of your friends are "good" (you assume), that there are no "bad" people out there. I offered evidence that that is not the experience that every player has. Indeed, there a LOT of players that have the exact opposite experience.
v: Power sharing was devised by players looking to maximize their toons, and minimize their run times. It has been adopted by the rest of the game as a way to beat content without actually taking 3, or 6, or 9 months to gather all the boons. Currently it is being used to keep players that don't build a certain way out of content. Seems relevant to me.
Not everyone gives good advice. "Farm platinum bowls for AD! Whoop-de-hoop!!!" Not everyone helps without being asked. See: Level 70's that don't know how the flowers & crystals in Cloak Tower work. Not every player will help, even if asked. Some will kick you for not knowing better (NOOBZ!!!) I'm not the tone police, but when "advice" is offered including words like noobz, gitgud, or the like, whining is the nicest term that can be applied. The more accurate terms will get HAMSTERD.
vi: Oh, I see. Content is made to be run only on 3 - 4 weekends per year. Thanks for letting me know. There is a rest of us... several as a matter of fact. there are players that started with Beta... and the rest of us. There are players that can play for hours at a time... and the rest of us. There are those that took advantage of certain, ahem, AD generating schemes early in the game, and the rest of us. There are those players willing to abandon a dungeon run because it will be too hard (or slow) with the group they got matched wit... and the rest of us. You would have seen them in zone chat begging for runs (like Tiamat or MSVA) 6 months ago.
I don't do that anymore. I got tired of it after about a week. I queue for content I want to do, & run something else while I'm waiting. Or did until the Random Queues. Now I have enuff diversity that I'm never bored & I only rarely have to go farm something for rewards that I need.
vii: What do you think charities do?
viii: Nobody knows what is going to hurt your feelings, but whatever it is, it is a perfectly acceptable reaction. Is that clearer? And I have had more than one toon wrecked by the shambling hordes In CN. The stinky lil' fakers. It wasn't until I got the rank 14 Move-'em-up enchant that I actually saw how they were avoiding the buggers.
ix: Nope. Must have missed it in the walls-o-text. I''l have to see if I can find the other thread.
x: I do have the same chance as everyone else. I have the chance that I will get grouped with someone that has already done the content, and instead of staying to help, they leave.
xi: 1)again... your experience. Not all players finish the Tower District in a single go. Those chests are full of all kinds of things. Not only gear. All of them can be sold for gold. If gold is such a burden, you can mail all of yours to me
xi: 2)I will say, "Awesome. I got into FBI. And didn't get kicked after 30 seconds. And nobody quit... yet!
HighGeared & Pay2Win =/= evil. Altho they are more likely than the average player to be a HAMSTER Baggins. I would say this is what you ran into in your random queue experiment. They were also the ones that were in PE Zone chat "LFG 4 more 16K+ for CN", before the Random Queues. BTW, I only ran CN 1 time before the random queues. Totally got carried.
Constantly carried is not good. That is how we got where we are, because a 'generation' of players were carried thru leveling dungeons by high levels chasing quick easy AD. I would say that these players were more of the pay 2 win, than the end game players. More, not only. I have seen some @ handles in Cloak TOwer & Cragmire Crypts that shocked me. Again (sigh) nobody is asking you to play any way you don't want to. But choices have consequences. I chose to not have alts. I have 5 toons (six soon!) that I play. That means my progression is gimped. I am fine with this. If you choose to carry a player, rather than running with them & explaining things as you go, that is a choice. And there are consequences. Consequences for you. Consequences for the carried. And consequences for the game. But the choice is yours.
This was my original point. Letting players of same level is the optimal environment. But as recent changes to the game have shown, it is not always possible. There are some areas where there are not enuff players to form a 5 man party. Or at least there are not 5 players that are interested in forming a party, since it would prevent them from running XYZ to farm AD. (Again. sigh... their choice) This is why we have a Random Queue in the first place.
Also, saying everyone had the same option to make mistakes & learn. That's not entirely true. 30+ instances when Well of dragons dropped. 60+ when River District dropped. 100+ when Ravenloft dropped. With the exception of 00:45 of the hour, when was the last time you saw WoD in double digits? Outdated content is mostly used as demon run, RP, & salvage farms. Not exactly an equivalent experience.
Low-Mid player PoV
low-mid tier players which not complete / unlock previous campaign boons/inexperience with dungeon mechanics wanted to experience the latest trend "hot" dungeon at the same time with everyone else . therefore some suggested to have easier version .. so everyone can have a feel on what is latest
- not every player has hours to spend in game or chase end game thrill , some just wanted to try/feel/play the content
Geared player PoV
players who worked the way up to latest content who has spent countless hours to complete on previous campaign thinks the dungeon should remain difficult so there will be challenge/reason to improve
- Low-Mid tier always has challenging content (at least up to 13 mods of contents) before playing latest content therefore keeping the content hard and for players who deserved it ..at some point low-mid players will get there...
- having simple tier such as demogorgon/msva dont work as people will normally go for easier version for low-chance of getting loot as it will ends faster. without chance of dropping good rewards people will not go for it at all..
My Suggestion..
Why not has model like Barovia hunts where players can have item to push up difficulties and increases reward, the dungeon can remain as it difficulties level but option to increase difficulties by adding more item/cards
- just like Barovia hunts geared players will include low-mid tier players for their card/poster contribution. Geared players will get more thrill and rewards ..while low-mid players get 1st hand experience on the full dungeon and chances to learn and maybe one day can run it with friends.
But I also think Cryptic already has provided the blueprint for a solution: the barovian hunting system.
For new mods, create new content in a way that the average casual player is not left out. For completing the content like this, provide the rewards to progress in the campaign, provide new weapon sets and all the stuff that you can get from the new mod. Then add challenges, where a player can choose from as he likes. Increase their difficulty gradually from "Piece of Cake" up to "Ultra Nightmare". Provide rewards accordingly, but provide rewards that does not leave anyone out who could not play "Ultra Nightmare". Provide astral diamons (yes, maybe even refined ADs), refinement stones, even some Zen is thinkable. Be creative about the rewards, make them worthwhile and don't leave anyone out of the new content.
Just my 2 cc.
Edit: Took me only two days to notice that @jase2cool already made the same suggestion. ;-)
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Having dungeons with scalable difficulty has been brought up repeatedly. I'm not sure what the hang-up is, but it sounds like some people only feel like content is worth doing if other people are excluded, even if those other people just get a peridot out of it. They say it's about difficulty on one hand, but then it turns into content exclusivity once difficulty scaling is brought up.
And the answer is no. The grandma don't have the right to beat the content if she's not prepared and don't spent hours and hours preparing, farming her gear, testing her class and learning the dungeons.
As the grandma don't have the right the play chess with Bobby Fischer on the first table without playing decades of chess.
If you think the content is too hard go back play WoW mythic raids in a hardcore guild or Eve Online and then come back.
Or wait don't go anywhere because the content was indeed challenging here in old times(beta-mod3). Old CN was still more challenging then recent content because we did't finish it on preview on the day of the release.
I think we do the right way and we have much better content then in mod6-mod9. We have much more Tier3 dungeons now.
I would love to see them in legendary versions.
We still have lots of power creep and too strong buffs in the game.
As mentioned we should have 2 dungeons per mod not only 1.
The casuals should use landscape thing to gear up. Its possible. We have lots of hunts, heroics and salvage farm options.
And they can use random Queues to farm dungeons.
I don't go around saying, "PVP should be removed from the game" despite the fact that I never play it. Nor do I go around saying, "The foundry should be removed from the game." If either of those areas receive some development time, good for them, it caters towards those parts of the community, even if it is not for me. So, stop trying to make all the content in the game casual, just because it suits your personal agenda. If everyone had your mindset where they expected to be carried then nobody would ever complete anything because nobody would work to learn the content. Let that sink in for a moment.