I strongly disagree with the statement that MoF Oppressor is no substitute for good DPS. If that would be true, it shouldn't be possible hitting 30-40 mil Disintegrates and 40-55 mil Ice Knives, wouldn't it? After all we've been so nerfed recently, right?
I m lost. What does 30-40mil disintegrates and 40-55mil ice knives have to do with Mof oppressor?
Your story also happened to me. A HDPS class, mostly GWF is looking for a MOF for a t3 dungeon run, he invites me and get angry when my MOF build deals more damage than he does. 90% players think MOF is a pure support class, which purpose is thus to make DPS classes shine. My conception is that MOF is a single target dps oriented class, when SS is better for trash. Of course MOF has 2 extra debuff spells that SS doesn't have (swath of destruction and combustive action), but people forget that MOF is a CW, so fundamentally a dps class. Playing in a party as pure support CW is like playing pure DPS as DC... IMO the best MOF build for though boss fights is oppressor with chill persence and swath of destruction : you personnaly deal the best damage a CW can have against boss AND you increase target's incoming damages AND you buff party damage.
In my opinion, if u are to play as a support role, u have to make sure u dish out all ur debuff and buff before u consider dpsing. As long as u are doing ur main job, it does not matter if ur dps is higher than the main dps. Extra dps are just a bonus for the group. Ur buff and debuff are more important to them. If u are focusing on dps and not putting out all ur debuff and buff, then I can guess why the group is angry. Frankly I rather take a 12k mof that does his job than a 17k mof that don't.
Also, to figure out if a support is really doing their job, u cant judge by looking at the dps chart. Instead u should pay attention on what power they use and the buff and debuff they put out. U will need the knowledge on how their debuff and buff works to judge. If u don't have that knowledge, don't judge. Just leave it to others that does.
All in all, a good support shouldn't focus on dps but instead focus on maximizing their buff and debuff and people shouldn't be judging them by looking at dps chart.
In my opinion, if u are to play as a support role, u have to make sure u dish out all ur debuff and buff before u consider dpsing. As long as u are doing ur main job, it does not matter if ur dps is higher than the main dps. Extra dps are just a bonus for the group. Ur buff and debuff are more important to them. If u are focusing on dps and not putting out all ur debuff and buff, then I can guess why the group is angry. Frankly I rather take a 12k mof that does his job than a 17k mof that don't.
Also, to figure out if a support is really doing their job, u cant judge by looking at the dps chart. Instead u should pay attention on what power they use and the buff and debuff they put out. U will need the knowledge on how their debuff and buff works to judge. If u don't have that knowledge, don't judge. Just leave it to others that does.
All in all, a good support shouldn't focus on dps but instead focus on maximizing their buff and debuff and people shouldn't be judging them by looking at dps chart.
All of this depends on what the MoF CW is actually going for.
If the party explicitly invites the CW as a support to another DPS, they should generally be maximizing their support function, as you say.
Otherwise maximize personal damage as appropriate. There's little value in improving the damage of other party members at your own expense if their output is far less than your own. MoF on trash is whatever IMO since the trash should die quickly and easily regardless, but a MoF single target DPS build is sufficiently powerful to serve as HDPS for tong or cradle if not needed to play as pure support. Players should not simply assume that MoF CWs are there as primary support even if most of them do adopt this role.
In my opinion, if u are to play as a support role, u have to make sure u dish out all ur debuff and buff before u consider dpsing. As long as u are doing ur main job, it does not matter if ur dps is higher than the main dps. Extra dps are just a bonus for the group. Ur buff and debuff are more important to them. If u are focusing on dps and not putting out all ur debuff and buff, then I can guess why the group is angry. Frankly I rather take a 12k mof that does his job than a 17k mof that don't.
Also, to figure out if a support is really doing their job, u cant judge by looking at the dps chart. Instead u should pay attention on what power they use and the buff and debuff they put out. U will need the knowledge on how their debuff and buff works to judge. If u don't have that knowledge, don't judge. Just leave it to others that does.
All in all, a good support shouldn't focus on dps but instead focus on maximizing their buff and debuff and people shouldn't be judging them by looking at dps chart.
I disagree with this sentiment. I believe whatever class you are playing, you should play the spec that speeds up the run the fastest. Say you are using a full support spec, with a support weapon enchantment and no chilling presence. You will do less than half the damage you would do otherwise and realistically, only increase teammates damage by ~10% more in a 5 man group then you would otherwise. If there is only 1 dps in the party and you go from dealing half their dps to equal to their dps, you are increasing the groups damage by 33%. If there are 2 dps, you are increasing the groups dps by ~20% by going from a "support spec" to a dps spec. If you are in a 10 man group, the diminishing returns on debuffs are so high, that by playing a support spec, you are buffing ~2-3% more then a dps spec and, if your group has lots of supports and few dps (which is the trend) by switching to dps you could potentially increase the groups damage by 10x that.
No, your job as a CW is not to increase the epeen score of another class and furthermore, that is not the job of ANY support. Your job is, like every other class, to make the run as fast and as smooth as possible. Why do GFs spec conq and not tactician? Simply because doing extra dps far outweighs buffing 5-10% more.
MOF CW is a DPS class, especially for boss fights, deal with it. Buff/debuff skills are extras that make it very versatile. Asking an end-geared cw to play pure support in CoDG, it's like asking a gwf or a HR to grant Combat Advantage without dealing damage.
In my opinion, if u are to play as a support role, u have to make sure u dish out all ur debuff and buff before u consider dpsing. As long as u are doing ur main job, it does not matter if ur dps is higher than the main dps. Extra dps are just a bonus for the group. Ur buff and debuff are more important to them. If u are focusing on dps and not putting out all ur debuff and buff, then I can guess why the group is angry. Frankly I rather take a 12k mof that does his job than a 17k mof that don't.
Also, to figure out if a support is really doing their job, u cant judge by looking at the dps chart. Instead u should pay attention on what power they use and the buff and debuff they put out. U will need the knowledge on how their debuff and buff works to judge. If u don't have that knowledge, don't judge. Just leave it to others that does.
All in all, a good support shouldn't focus on dps but instead focus on maximizing their buff and debuff and people shouldn't be judging them by looking at dps chart.
I disagree with this sentiment. I believe whatever class you are playing, you should play the spec that speeds up the run the fastest. Say you are using a full support spec, with a support weapon enchantment and no chilling presence. You will do less than half the damage you would do otherwise and realistically, only increase teammates damage by ~10% more in a 5 man group then you would otherwise. If there is only 1 dps in the party and you go from dealing half their dps to equal to their dps, you are increasing the groups damage by 33%. If there are 2 dps, you are increasing the groups dps by ~20% by going from a "support spec" to a dps spec. If you are in a 10 man group, the diminishing returns on debuffs are so high, that by playing a support spec, you are buffing ~2-3% more then a dps spec and, if your group has lots of supports and few dps (which is the trend) by switching to dps you could potentially increase the groups damage by 10x that.
No, your job as a CW is not to increase the epeen score of another class and furthermore, that is not the job of ANY support. Your job is, like every other class, to make the run as fast and as smooth as possible. Why do GFs spec conq and not tactician? Simply because doing extra dps far outweighs buffing 5-10% more.
Fast runs is not always the best way to beat content. I know for one where MSPC the last boss if you kill her to fast most quick run groups will wipe and you have to slow your burn down. Also, seen plenty of bosses throughout the game glitch when everyone is setup for the fast runs. But what you state is how players should setup their characters though as faster runs tend to be smoother.
Fast runs is not always the best way to beat content. I know for one where MSPC the last boss if you kill her to fast most quick run groups will wipe and you have to slow your burn down. Also, seen plenty of bosses throughout the game glitch when everyone is setup for the fast runs. But what you state is how players should setup their characters though as faster runs tend to be smoother.
As fast and as smooth as possible.
If your dps is pretty mindless then yes you can overburn a couple bosses. But that's not really an argument for building parties around less dps output, right?
Fast runs is not always the best way to beat content. I know for one where MSPC the last boss if you kill her to fast most quick run groups will wipe and you have to slow your burn down. Also, seen plenty of bosses throughout the game glitch when everyone is setup for the fast runs. But what you state is how players should setup their characters though as faster runs tend to be smoother.
As fast and as smooth as possible.
If your dps is pretty mindless then yes you can overburn a couple bosses. But that's not really an argument for building parties around less dps output, right?
I know that, that is why I stated, "But what you state is how players should setup their characters though as faster runs tend to be smoother."
Fast runs is not always the best way to beat content. I know for one where MSPC the last boss if you kill her to fast most quick run groups will wipe and you have to slow your burn down. Also, seen plenty of bosses throughout the game glitch when everyone is setup for the fast runs. But what you state is how players should setup their characters though as faster runs tend to be smoother.
As fast and as smooth as possible.
If your dps is pretty mindless then yes you can overburn a couple bosses. But that's not really an argument for building parties around less dps output, right?
I know that, that is why I stated, "But what you state is how players should setup their characters though as faster runs tend to be smoother."
Well you make no point here. The fastest run is always going to be the best way to go. If DPS burns boss and causes it to bug or group to wipe "Then that is not the fastest way to run" now is it?
Fast runs is not always the best way to beat content. I know for one where MSPC the last boss if you kill her to fast most quick run groups will wipe and you have to slow your burn down. Also, seen plenty of bosses throughout the game glitch when everyone is setup for the fast runs. But what you state is how players should setup their characters though as faster runs tend to be smoother.
As fast and as smooth as possible.
If your dps is pretty mindless then yes you can overburn a couple bosses. But that's not really an argument for building parties around less dps output, right?
I know that, that is why I stated, "But what you state is how players should setup their characters though as faster runs tend to be smoother."
Well you make no point here. The fastest run is always going to be the best way to go. If DPS burns boss and causes it to bug or group to wipe "Then that is not the fastest way to run" now is it?
Fast burn is fine as long as the group is aware when to stop the burn. Wait it out and than go about it again. Very common as the group get stronger in specific content.
I still prefer Renegade over Oppressor. Reason is because of Chaotic Nexus. In any battle with more than 5 players, the chances are high that someone is lacking armor pen and/or critical chance. Even in groups of 5 players, Chaotic Nexus can still help because "healers" and tanks often lack armor pen and/or critical chance, especially if setup for max power sharing.
DC's can actually do significant damage, with a 30% armor pen and 30% critical chance boost from Chaotic Nexus. Plus another 5% critical chance from Uncertain Allegiance.
I play both MOF-Renegade hybrid buff/debuff/dps and also a DC-Righteous buffer. My DC is more welcome in parties than my CW, but my runs with CW are almost always faster than my DC. Reason is because there are a lot of good DC's, even though there are a lack of DC's, but carefully and properly optimized MoF CW's (especially hybrid's) are rare.
Often, when I inspect a MoF CW, I first look at the weapon enchantment and I see a non-debuff weapon enchantment. And then I immeidately understand what kind of MoF that is.
I still prefer Renegade over Oppressor. Reason is because of Chaotic Nexus. In any battle with more than 5 players, the chances are high that someone is lacking armor pen and/or critical chance. Even in groups of 5 players, Chaotic Nexus can still help because "healers" and tanks often lack armor pen and/or critical chance, especially if setup for max power sharing.
DC's can actually do significant damage, with a 30% armor pen and 30% critical chance boost from Chaotic Nexus. Plus another 5% critical chance from Uncertain Allegiance.
I play both MOF-Renegade hybrid buff/debuff/dps and also a DC-Righteous buffer. My DC is more welcome in parties than my CW, but my runs with CW are almost always faster than my DC. Reason is because there are a lot of good DC's, even though there are a lack of DC's, but carefully and properly optimized MoF CW's (especially hybrid's) are rare.
Often, when I inspect a MoF CW, I first look at the weapon enchantment and I see a non-debuff weapon enchantment. And then I immeidately understand what kind of MoF that is.
I see your points but the issue is this post is around a player not being invited as a MoF Oppressor to later content, T9 and CoDG. The only player you are really helping out with your CW is the AC DC. All other players in the group typically have the defense ignore at 85%. Very rarely will the bonus help other character unless you are doing a carry and by that measure you should be using the base meta group to ensure a smooth run. Even if it is a carry, that player should have at least a 75% defense ignore and the AC DC chip damage will not equal the extra damage you can push out as a MoF Oppressor.
The other point I want to make is that control momentum is almost always up and that still provides a nice boost in everyone's damage and it can stack with another Oppressor CW. I grabbed another CW buffer and they were a Renegade. I ran as a full SS Oppressor both AoE and single target we beat T9 in around 30 minute. The CW buffer damage was less than 1/4 of my damage. I gave them the MoF Oppressor build and they respec and we ran T9 again the same group. I stayed SS Oppressor once again. We shaved off almost 10 full minutes just from his extra damage and getting two buffs from Control Momentum. His damage was around 80% of mine. We were similar IL, stats and gear.
We did this test with 2 DC and an OP tank. One of the DCs switched to his SW and we did further testing. The renegade was better without a 2nd DC but not by much. We are talking under 2 minutes when compared to a MoF Oppressor. The thing that I belive would have made the oppressor build better when running without a second DC is using Combustive Action, I forgot to have the CW switch to that for our 1 DC run. Seeing that without the ability slotted when he was a MoF Oppressor but had it as a MoF Renegade, I believe that the MoF Oppressor path is just the way to go ATM as a buff CW.
Don't get me wrong, the Renegade build has a place in the game; when you run with lower IL players who need a boost for thier damage; for instance pugging CN and you get a group of 11k player and you are 16K+ and want to make them feel good about their damage. Run a SS or MoF Renegade; the MoF will make them look better whereas the SS will still give them a slight buff but you can still burn through content rather quickly.
I see your points but the issue is this post is around a player not being invited as a MoF Oppressor to later content, T9 and CoDG. The only player you are really helping out with your CW is the AC DC.
Actually, the original post is about Master Spellplague, but let's not quibble. If you only play with your friends/guild-mates, then, I suppose you can assume your team-mates have excellent stats. But when playing with unknown people (as stated in the original post), I think it's wrong to assume that everyone has enough critical chance and armor penetration, except for the AC DC. Try playing MoF Oppressor with unknown players, and see how well that works and let us know.
> @sangrine said: > Try playing MoF Oppressor with unknown players, and see how well that works and let us know.
While I see the point you are trying to make, I’d like to mention that MoF Oppressor works very well for all kinds of groups and is not limited to groups with high-end characters.
If the group is struggling to the extent that they significantly benefit from one of the random outcomes of Chaos Magic, I’m better off sticking with my SS Oppressor and MoF Oppressor DPS loadouts, anyway.
If the group is struggling to the extent that they significantly benefit from one of the random outcomes of Chaos Magic, I’m better off sticking with my SS Oppressor and MoF Oppressor DPS loadouts, anyway.
But you don't know if the group is struggling, and you don't know if everyone has sufficient armor pen and critical chance, until after you play with them a while.
Which loadout will you use at the start? Or will you stand at the campfire and inspect other players to see their stats? or ??
After the Opp capstone changes, I swapped back and forth between running MoF Opp and MoF Rene in various pugs and private groups. In my opinion, Opp tends to outperform Rene in most 5-member groups, and I'm almost always starting off with it as my default loadout now.
The way that I would put it is: if the group is struggling with dps, the increased personal dps provided by Opp will likely be more helpful than the marginal increased debuffs and utility (CA, etc.) on Rene. And if it's not enough, then the group likely wouldn't be able to complete the content with Rene either.
In my opinion, Rene these days is most suited for running with novice/awkward composition groups that are still figuring things out, because then reliable CA proc and capstone HoT are pretty helpful.
I think the recent changes have been rough all around as a CW. The MOF build has made the SS obsolete almost completely!
By semi-normalising both their damage, the SS only starts to do slightly more damage at higher crit chances than before (at 85% or greater). However, the SS has less group utility compared to the MoF's debuffing. Since the CW has been relegated to largely a utility role in end-game parties, yes then you are correct, the SS is more or less obselete in these parties, except possibly for trash clearing, but the group would be able to clear them quickly anyhow.
There are a few CWs who I have seen who still do pretty good damage as primary DPS as a spellstorm mage. They are very few, and are usually BiS or near BiS. Of course, this is also when the party is fully buffing that CW. Interestingly, the SS also does better with a MoF in the party due to the addition of Rimefire to their output. However, it is arguable if a DPS of another class could have outperformed the CW in the same buffing party; this difference would probably be a matter of minutes or possibly seconds. While this difference seems marginal, people do take note. The CW also suffers from a lack of self-buffing compared to other classes, which make other classes look way better on paingiver, which people also notice. The CW also does not have any 'big shot attacks' which look impressive. Disintegrate or Ice Knife are probably our strongest 'one-shot' powers, but look comparatively lackluster compared to a well timed IBS, GW or SOD.
A large part of the view that SS mages are very weak now is probably a matter of perspective, but there is also some truth in it. Lesser geared wizards have suffered the most. Certain powers of ours also do not proc enchantments or artifact sets (Lostmauth and Orcus set funnily enough). See here for a complete list, and go to 'Bugs and Exceptions' and also view '3 Piece Set' (credit goes to Sharpedge @thefabricant for compiling this excellent resource). Right now, I think the CW is facing an image crisis as well, so to speak. They aren't viewed strong enough by a majority of the community compared to other classes, and the oppressor or renegade paths are not clearly understood by many. The Renegade was *the* path to take previously, when players were much weaker. However, now with people reaching maximum effective stat values (critical strike, armor penetration), and with healing needed to counter burst or constant damage, then the Chaotic magic procs have less value than before, with the exception of Chaotic Fury, which is random, compared the reliable proc of Controlled Momentum of the Oppressor. Other utilities which the Renegade may offer is Combat Advantage, but if another class in your party can do this, or you can achieve it with proper positioning, then there is little value to be had in it.
tldr; yes the SS is nearly obselete in most end-game parties, and the MoF build will almost always be seen as a support, as it improves all party members' output, rather than just its own.
Which loadout will you use at the start? Or will you stand at the campfire and inspect other players to see their stats? or ??
Why would I ever think to do this? Oppressor is effective for all group compositions. I would only consider making an exception if the group lacked a GF and had issues with CA uptime. I certainly would not plan around the three Chaos Magic options randomly granting uptime on a buff that may or may not be useful to anyone. The healing effect is garbage, so we're left with what seems to be a 1 out of 3 chance of getting an unquestionably useful buff, which may or may not line up well with buff windows, anyway.
Also, I don't believe that MoF-anything is necessary for dungeon trash. I have MoF loadouts for the sole purpose of boss DPS. The only accommodation I made as a Spellstorm main was to squeeze in enough Recovery so that I could dump Spell Twisting and take Elemental Reinforcement so as to maximize damage with Oppressor. It's great that support MoF is an option, but with the current state of Spellstorm, CWs who are primary (or even secondary, in most cases) DPS do better to utilize a MoF DPS loadout for boss fights unless they themselves are being supported by a MoF. These rare cases have given me my highest damage, but it really only happens when I main DPS for Cradle.
Hopefully Spellstorm will be tweaked to regain its role as the definitive DPS path, but in the meantime, solo CWs have MoF to fill the boss striker role.
Spellstorm is still the definitive DPS path, but only for trash, because Storm Spell is only (randomly) triggered by crit hits. The most hit targets, the more it is cast. So the efficacy of Storm Spell is fundamentally limited for single target fights. Here enters the MOF, whose smolder/rimefire feature ticks every 1.5 sec as, long as target is affected by chill. Curiously, the passive feature (swath of destruction) that buffs smolder damage also increases damage taken by foe for all allies... So, yes, MOF isn't pure DPS, but it doesn't mean it's a no-dps support class. Oppressor MOF has better support ability than renegade (except for granting Combat Advantage) and better DPS than thaumaturge (in any situation).
However, the pure DPS classes GWF, TR and HR will always beat CW in boss fights, regardless of its build.
It may be splitting hairs, but I don’t count trash-clearing ability in the current state of the game. Every class can clear trash, so SS gets no props there.
If the group is struggling to the extent that they significantly benefit from one of the random outcomes of Chaos Magic, I’m better off sticking with my SS Oppressor and MoF Oppressor DPS loadouts, anyway.
But you don't know if the group is struggling, and you don't know if everyone has sufficient armor pen and critical chance, until after you play with them a while.
Which loadout will you use at the start? Or will you stand at the campfire and inspect other players to see their stats? or ??
If the player is running FBI or higher they should have the appropriate defense ignored and critical chance. It is not up to a CW to make up for their lack in stats. It is the buff CW job to buff the group damage up which you can do consistently as a CW Oppressor.
I'm not sure about this but I believe that RoE and Swath of Destruction lowers enemies defenses. Shouldn't a lower defense mean lower defense resistance and that means more damage? If that is the case, than you are already providing a similar buff and your extra damage will help the group out more than a random buff from Chaos Magic.
I do have renegade builds and use it when I get a pug group that does require buffing, typically if the players are under 12K IL. Otherwise I run one of my Oppressor builds.
Prior to the Oppressor updates, Renegade was the way to play as a CW buffer, but now the best way to play as a CW buffer is as an Oppressor build.
Question. Why is SS supposed to be the difinitive dps path. To me, spellstorm should be AE.. hard and fast. Everything around melts. Whereas with a MoF, the damage should start slow as the layers build, but soon become a tsunami ticking away. At the end of the day the MoF should do more damage...just in a lot of circumstances...not have the chance. Both builds should be strong. Just have different purposes.
..that said I’m 15.2k and still struggle to feel useful in groups..the solo plays pretty fun though. After returning from about a year off it’s nice to be able to earn Smops, upgrade the enhantments and all while we hope for a bit of a performance boost..
Question. Why is SS supposed to be the difinitive dps path. To me, spellstorm should be AE.. hard and fast. Everything around melts.
Whereas with a MoF, the damage should start slow as the layers build, but soon become a tsunami ticking away. At the end of the day the MoF should do more damage...just in a lot of circumstances...not have the chance. Both builds should be strong. Just have different purposes.
..that said I’m 15.2k and still struggle to feel useful in groups..the solo plays pretty fun though. After returning from about a year off it’s nice to be able to earn Smops, upgrade the enhantments and all while we hope for a bit of a performance boost..
AoE strength isn't very important across the board; performance on bosses is what truly matters. That's why I think SS has been thoroughly dethroned in the DPS department even compared to its peer paragon path, since it can beat DPS MoF on bosses only in specific scenarios that almost always require an MoF to play support or at least secondary DPS.
There really isn't that much of a ramp-up with MoF damage on a single target, it's just that SS enjoys greater speed and ease of execution with groups of comparatively low HP trash mobs. Icy Terrain alone sets off immediate volleys of Storm Spell strikes, and Sudden Storm performs extremely well in tightly packed mob swarms, etc.
As much as I've come to enjoy MoF DPS for bosses, I think they should tweak the two paths further at least to make SS a path that's inherently more competitive in the personal DPS department. Not only have the devs left CWs somewhat more challenged to perform compared to other DPS, they've allowed SS to be upstaged to a huge degree due to MoF being able to spec with the same +%damage feats and debuffing for itself with the Smolder mechanic and Swath feature while also running Chilling Presence.
TL;DR: You know SS needs love in the boss DPS department when not only are CWs a bit behind the curve in general, but the supposed debuff/support path typically beats it in any single-target-focused situation.
Small edit: Spellstorm does keep its unique Destructive Wizardry buff, which is nice, but would be better if it didn't require a fully charged Storm Pillar.
So after reading your comment I tried to split my play time 50-50 between MoF and Ss and at this point feel that the class as a whole needs a dps/usefulness buff before further tuning. As it stands both builds have strengths and weaknesses depending on the situation but it seems pretty even between them at the end of the day.
Personally, I would like to see a general increase in mobs hp’s and a return to more crowd controlled centric play. That is an across the board thing for me. Slows, snares, roots, and freezes should be useful mechanics, and the only way for that to happen is mobs can’t evaporate after a simple fz. Etc..
Nutshell: Boost mob hp Boost the cw’s dps on the whole. Then look at whether there are still relevant imbalances between Ss and MoF’s.
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lukejones77Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 282Arc User
So after reading your comment I tried to split my play time 50-50 between MoF and Ss and at this point feel that the class as a whole needs a dps/usefulness buff before further tuning. As it stands both builds have strengths and weaknesses depending on the situation but it seems pretty even between them at the end of the day.
Personally, I would like to see a general increase in mobs hp’s and a return to more crowd controlled centric play. That is an across the board thing for me. Slows, snares, roots, and freezes should be useful mechanics, and the only way for that to happen is mobs can’t evaporate after a simple fz. Etc..
Nutshell:
Boost mob hp
Boost the cw’s dps on the whole.
Then look at whether there are still relevant imbalances between Ss and MoF’s.
No, that's not the nutshell. Here's the nutshell (a count of class representation in TONG from right now): DC - 14 Pala - 8 GWF - 7 GF - 5 SW - 3 CW - 2 (both MoF, with buff equip, not DPS, even using a terror enchant) HR -1
Those numbers are actually flattering compared to normal, probably because of the small sample size.
The fact is that the CW is a 3rd rate DPS class, and a 2nd rate buffer, which few want for their party. Sure, a great buff team can make you their DPS, and you can show a PainGiver screen shot with 1.5 billion damage - but they can do that to any class, and they prefer a DPS class that gets them a quicker finish.
Go run T2 with other end-game DPS classes. Even the GF tank will embarrass you at the same gear score. The difference between you and equally geared end-game HRs, GFs and especially GWFs is enormous. The gap is really wide. Sharpedge pretty much spent module 12 on his DC, and I've seen very little of him lately. Voodoo did awesome work with maximizing MoF debuffer and heads up a well attended CW facebook group, but has pretty much given up and left the game.
Cryptic have shown you very clearly that they're not going to increase your CW DPS. It's been over 3 years since our big nerf. When they did class balance a year ago, they saved CW and GWF for last - but never actually did us. When they decided to end the entity procs that had lightning working well for us, they made 2 quick adjustments (SpellStorm got crit, then the crit got a nerf), to ensure that we stayed exactly where we were. That's what you need to know about how complex it is, and how long it takes to make careful balancing adjustments: It doesn't take long, it's easy to do, but they very deliberately choose to not do it.
You really need to understand that: - The class is in an absolute rubbish position, with regard to end-game relevancy and being competitive - The devs very deliberately have it there, and have no intention of fixing it - Since mod 12, when they introduced tough content, and people cared about party composition, we're not wanted. Look to your guild and friends for charity, but don't be surprised if they insist you play a non-DPS buffer. - When new content comes, new drops come, new seals for the best equipment comes, the drop rates are at their best, and the AH prices are at their best. Charity aside, you get to miss to out. At the very least, you get to take a lot longer to get enough runs.
You really think that small differences between the SS and MoF matter? You really think that paying almost 10 mill AD to switch to a Prominence weapon enchant matters? You really think that somehow getting in on enough Castle Ravenloft runs to get the latest gear will matter? You excited about the difference the Orcus set could make to you, now that they've fixed it? Sure, all those things will make you better than you are, and some of them will feel significant. Fact is, though, you're still going to be a 3rd rate DPS class. Not only that, but the DPS classes that the devs actually look after will get more benefit from those things than you will. TRs, for example, are enjoying Orcus set fixes much more than you will, effectively making them more desirable than you for those valuable end-game runs.
Maximizing the DPS of an end-game CW, relative to other DPS (and even non-DPS) classes, is kinda like been the janitor at the work place. You can brag about how awesome your janitor's broom is, get a better model than the CWs around you, clean and preen it to great shininess - but nobody else cares. Really.
Best I can tell, the DEVs have sent players a clear message that if they want to play GWF for DPS or DC for support, they can safely spend large amounts of money and be assured a great playing experience without fear of any serious competition from other classes. They'll get an easy run, un-competitive access to parties for all the latest content (best gear, at the highest drop rates and highest prices). They'll get to feel like gods on the PainGiver chart, or the ACT buffer efficiency column.
... but you never know, they just might balance out the SS against the MoF for you...
whoa, whoa, whoa... I was referring to the posts made by the guy above me who seemed more concerned with SS // MoF imbalance, than the class as a whole. Let me just get it out there that i completely agree with you. I'd taken a year off and have been back about 3-4 months. In that time I've solo'd everything possible to build my toon. Largely because it feels, compared to others, I can't fight my way out of a wet paper bag...and no matter how hard I try..which enchantment I roll with..nothing really helps. Heck, now that I'm about 15.3k IL with my crit hovering in the 92-97% range I still get pwn'd by 13k gwf's barely paying attention. Not that I'd want to play a GWF..what a snooze fest that must be..no clue what they are thinking with that class relative to the others..but whatever...
Anyway, for the record and all that, it should be pointed out that, I don't think Spell Storm, should be the definitive DPS paragon. The whole running around with a cone, spray and pray, is great for farming, and dealing with adds, among other situations.. but there also needs to be a place for DoTing, Kiting and laying down some serious damage. Looking forward it would also be good to see crowd control make it back into the game. Crowd control being more than freezing mobs until they evaporate would go a long way to making that happen. That was the crux of my whole mobs need more HP point above. Despite our grotesque shortcomings as a class, the game as a whole seems to encourage people to run around like idiots without much anything in the realm of penalties.
An example: Your in a group situation and you've just engaged 5 mobs, their hp is too high to handle all 5 simultaneously so its the job of cc to handle 2 or 3 (fz, root, snare/kite, etc class depending) while the rest of the group burns down the primary. Ya know, like actual teamwork and stuff! Of course we will need way on the consoles to /assist cause omg...just omg.. it will be necessary
Bringing back CC, as a feature of support, in addition to returning us to competitive DPS, should be a part of the tuning which is hopefully going on, as we speak, at Cryptic. I know...stupid baseless optimism...never the less, its been a long time, and they really need to get it together with regard to us soon.
1
lukejones77Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 282Arc User
whoa, whoa, whoa... I was referring to the posts made by the guy above me who seemed more concerned with SS // MoF imbalance, than the class as a whole. Let me just get it out there that i completely agree with you. I'd taken a year off and have been back about 3-4 months. .... Anyway, for the record and all that, it should be pointed out that, I don't think Spell Storm, should be the definitive DPS paragon. The whole running around with a cone, spray and pray, is great for farming, and dealing with adds, among other situations.. but there also needs to be a place for DoTing, Kiting and laying down some serious damage. Looking forward it would also be good to see crowd control make it back into the game. Crowd control being more than freezing mobs until they evaporate would go a long way to making that happen. Bringing back CC, as a feature of support, in addition to returning us to competitive DPS, should be a part of the tuning which is hopefully going on, as we speak, at Cryptic. I know...stupid baseless optimism...never the less, its been a long time, and they really need to get it together with regard to us soon.
I wouldn't bother trying to make sense of the class "design" in any way: - The closest to accepted CW DPS variant is single targeting the boss. This is about shatter strike and the group appreciating the controlled momentum buff. This is via the Oppressor path, and DPS is the opposite of what the Oppressor path is meant to be. - You have the Renegade path. Until the last mod or so, there was at least some desirability, for the MoF Renegade, as pure support. Now, the party crit bonuses are practically irrelevant since the gear these days gets people to 100% crit anyway (end-game), the Combat Advantage isn't a big deal as you can now get it positionally as well as via other classes, the Chaotic Growth healing isn't needed, the chaotic nexus is covered as the party takes care of it's Arpen (again, gear so good now), and chaotic fury is an unreliable 30%. - The Thaumaturge path is pretty simply the intended DPS CW, which is 3rd rate compared to other classes. - Aside from Disintegrate, all the powers given us in expanding the class from level 60 to 70 are a joke that nobody uses - Arcane Power Field, Frost Wave and Imprisonment.
Bring back CC? Even if they did it, why would it make CWs any more desirable? The old story was that classes used to argue with each other, basically justifying why some other class shouldn't get any kind of DPS increase, and why they shouldn't get a nerf. The most common thing told to CWs was that they were meant to control, or at least destroy mobs, and not be able to take on the more serious business of boss killing. People don't even bother with "CWs are Control" or worry about balancing nerfs, as it's become very clear to them over time, that the DEVs aren't bothered. Well, you seen any other DPS class that can't take out mobs? Even the TR, meant to the paragon of massive boss single target damage, readily wipes out entire mobs with ease, as do virtually all the other classes.
Yeah, the CW class is a broken heap of rubbish design, out of the meta, and getting further away with each passing module.
We're now down to "they really need to get it together with regard to us soon". That's what I'm trying to tell you. It's the most important bit of all: - They can easily make us more relevant. They have no intention of doing it. - They've had plenty of time. Time is not their issue. - Think of all the time they've spent making new gears with new powers etc. What have they done for the CW? - For the last 3 modules they've seen a few classes, CW in particular, and DPS CW most of all - unwanted by parties for new content. What have they done about it? Nothing? - Is the problem a minor one? No! The statistical bias from class counts for end-game content, is massive - absolutely compelling.
You know that when they bring out new year, that attribute increases are the big deal. What did the big DPS Orcus set give? Str + Con. What did the previous big DPS Lostmauth set bring? Str + Dex. What did the awesome Tenser Disk (a mage spell) bring as the ultimate DPS mount back in the day? Str + Dex.
The class has been a mess for many modules now, spanning years, totally neglected and ignored. You really have absolutely no reason to think that anything is going to change.
At some point you've got to ask yourself, if the DEVs don't like the CW class, and don't care about CWs, could they have made it any more clear than they have been doing, without saying it directly?
After the Opp capstone changes, I swapped back and forth between running MoF Opp and MoF Rene in various pugs and private groups. In my opinion, Opp tends to outperform Rene in most 5-member groups, and I'm almost always starting off with it as my default loadout now.
The way that I would put it is: if the group is struggling with dps, the increased personal dps provided by Opp will likely be more helpful than the marginal increased debuffs and utility (CA, etc.) on Rene. And if it's not enough, then the group likely wouldn't be able to complete the content with Rene either.
In my opinion, Rene these days is most suited for running with novice/awkward composition groups that are still figuring things out, because then reliable CA proc and capstone HoT are pretty helpful.
Here is what I do...I run SS Opp AoE setup up to the boss. Than I swap to MoF Opp Single target. This combo I find produce good damage and gets the fastest times in content. The only content ATM that I run MoF Opp the full run is CoDG.
Comments
My conception is that MOF is a single target dps oriented class, when SS is better for trash. Of course MOF has 2 extra debuff spells that SS doesn't have (swath of destruction and combustive action), but people forget that MOF is a CW, so fundamentally a dps class. Playing in a party as pure support CW is like playing pure DPS as DC...
IMO the best MOF build for though boss fights is oppressor with chill persence and swath of destruction : you personnaly deal the best damage a CW can have against boss AND you increase target's incoming damages AND you buff party damage.
My Wizard Guide:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JezPmehRjvkrHQKwEJ9tGGesDuekj2mcfKiWxlx56ns/edit?usp=sharing
My Arbiter Cleric guide:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UZGOcQIMLCh5I4lrH63REK5YVsa3Kpk1hOyfic21z8k/edit?usp=sharing
Also, to figure out if a support is really doing their job, u cant judge by looking at the dps chart. Instead u should pay attention on what power they use and the buff and debuff they put out. U will need the knowledge on how their debuff and buff works to judge. If u don't have that knowledge, don't judge. Just leave it to others that does.
All in all, a good support shouldn't focus on dps but instead focus on maximizing their buff and debuff and people shouldn't be judging them by looking at dps chart.
If the party explicitly invites the CW as a support to another DPS, they should generally be maximizing their support function, as you say.
Otherwise maximize personal damage as appropriate. There's little value in improving the damage of other party members at your own expense if their output is far less than your own. MoF on trash is whatever IMO since the trash should die quickly and easily regardless, but a MoF single target DPS build is sufficiently powerful to serve as HDPS for tong or cradle if not needed to play as pure support. Players should not simply assume that MoF CWs are there as primary support even if most of them do adopt this role.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
No, your job as a CW is not to increase the epeen score of another class and furthermore, that is not the job of ANY support. Your job is, like every other class, to make the run as fast and as smooth as possible. Why do GFs spec conq and not tactician? Simply because doing extra dps far outweighs buffing 5-10% more.
Asking an end-geared cw to play pure support in CoDG, it's like asking a gwf or a HR to grant Combat Advantage without dealing damage.
My Wizard Guide:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JezPmehRjvkrHQKwEJ9tGGesDuekj2mcfKiWxlx56ns/edit?usp=sharing
My Arbiter Cleric guide:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UZGOcQIMLCh5I4lrH63REK5YVsa3Kpk1hOyfic21z8k/edit?usp=sharing
If your dps is pretty mindless then yes you can overburn a couple bosses. But that's not really an argument for building parties around less dps output, right?
Reason is because of Chaotic Nexus.
In any battle with more than 5 players, the chances are high that someone is lacking armor pen and/or critical chance.
Even in groups of 5 players, Chaotic Nexus can still help because "healers" and tanks often lack armor pen
and/or critical chance, especially if setup for max power sharing.
DC's can actually do significant damage, with a 30% armor pen and 30% critical chance boost from Chaotic Nexus.
Plus another 5% critical chance from Uncertain Allegiance.
I play both MOF-Renegade hybrid buff/debuff/dps and also a DC-Righteous buffer.
My DC is more welcome in parties than my CW, but my runs with CW are almost always faster than my DC.
Reason is because there are a lot of good DC's, even though there are a lack of DC's,
but carefully and properly optimized MoF CW's (especially hybrid's) are rare.
Often, when I inspect a MoF CW, I first look at the weapon enchantment and I see a non-debuff weapon enchantment.
And then I immeidately understand what kind of MoF that is.
The other point I want to make is that control momentum is almost always up and that still provides a nice boost in everyone's damage and it can stack with another Oppressor CW. I grabbed another CW buffer and they were a Renegade. I ran as a full SS Oppressor both AoE and single target we beat T9 in around 30 minute. The CW buffer damage was less than 1/4 of my damage. I gave them the MoF Oppressor build and they respec and we ran T9 again the same group. I stayed SS Oppressor once again. We shaved off almost 10 full minutes just from his extra damage and getting two buffs from Control Momentum. His damage was around 80% of mine. We were similar IL, stats and gear.
We did this test with 2 DC and an OP tank. One of the DCs switched to his SW and we did further testing. The renegade was better without a 2nd DC but not by much. We are talking under 2 minutes when compared to a MoF Oppressor. The thing that I belive would have made the oppressor build better when running without a second DC is using Combustive Action, I forgot to have the CW switch to that for our 1 DC run. Seeing that without the ability slotted when he was a MoF Oppressor but had it as a MoF Renegade, I believe that the MoF Oppressor path is just the way to go ATM as a buff CW.
Don't get me wrong, the Renegade build has a place in the game; when you run with lower IL players who need a boost for thier damage; for instance pugging CN and you get a group of 11k player and you are 16K+ and want to make them feel good about their damage. Run a SS or MoF Renegade; the MoF will make them look better whereas the SS will still give them a slight buff but you can still burn through content rather quickly.
If you only play with your friends/guild-mates, then, I suppose you can assume your team-mates have excellent stats.
But when playing with unknown people (as stated in the original post), I think it's wrong to assume
that everyone has enough critical chance and armor penetration, except for the AC DC.
Try playing MoF Oppressor with unknown players, and see how well that works and let us know.
> Try playing MoF Oppressor with unknown players, and see how well that works and let us know.
While I see the point you are trying to make, I’d like to mention that MoF Oppressor works very well for all kinds of groups and is not limited to groups with high-end characters.
If the group is struggling to the extent that they significantly benefit from one of the random outcomes of Chaos Magic, I’m better off sticking with my SS Oppressor and MoF Oppressor DPS loadouts, anyway.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
and you don't know if everyone has sufficient armor pen and critical chance,
until after you play with them a while.
Which loadout will you use at the start?
Or will you stand at the campfire and inspect other players to see their stats? or ??
The way that I would put it is: if the group is struggling with dps, the increased personal dps provided by Opp will likely be more helpful than the marginal increased debuffs and utility (CA, etc.) on Rene. And if it's not enough, then the group likely wouldn't be able to complete the content with Rene either.
In my opinion, Rene these days is most suited for running with novice/awkward composition groups that are still figuring things out, because then reliable CA proc and capstone HoT are pretty helpful.
There are a few CWs who I have seen who still do pretty good damage as primary DPS as a spellstorm mage. They are very few, and are usually BiS or near BiS. Of course, this is also when the party is fully buffing that CW. Interestingly, the SS also does better with a MoF in the party due to the addition of Rimefire to their output. However, it is arguable if a DPS of another class could have outperformed the CW in the same buffing party; this difference would probably be a matter of minutes or possibly seconds. While this difference seems marginal, people do take note. The CW also suffers from a lack of self-buffing compared to other classes, which make other classes look way better on paingiver, which people also notice. The CW also does not have any 'big shot attacks' which look impressive. Disintegrate or Ice Knife are probably our strongest 'one-shot' powers, but look comparatively lackluster compared to a well timed IBS, GW or SOD.
A large part of the view that SS mages are very weak now is probably a matter of perspective, but there is also some truth in it. Lesser geared wizards have suffered the most. Certain powers of ours also do not proc enchantments or artifact sets (Lostmauth and Orcus set funnily enough). See here for a complete list, and go to 'Bugs and Exceptions' and also view '3 Piece Set' (credit goes to Sharpedge @thefabricant for compiling this excellent resource). Right now, I think the CW is facing an image crisis as well, so to speak. They aren't viewed strong enough by a majority of the community compared to other classes, and the oppressor or renegade paths are not clearly understood by many. The Renegade was *the* path to take previously, when players were much weaker. However, now with people reaching maximum effective stat values (critical strike, armor penetration), and with healing needed to counter burst or constant damage, then the Chaotic magic procs have less value than before, with the exception of Chaotic Fury, which is random, compared the reliable proc of Controlled Momentum of the Oppressor. Other utilities which the Renegade may offer is Combat Advantage, but if another class in your party can do this, or you can achieve it with proper positioning, then there is little value to be had in it.
tldr; yes the SS is nearly obselete in most end-game parties, and the MoF build will almost always be seen as a support, as it improves all party members' output, rather than just its own.
Also, I don't believe that MoF-anything is necessary for dungeon trash. I have MoF loadouts for the sole purpose of boss DPS. The only accommodation I made as a Spellstorm main was to squeeze in enough Recovery so that I could dump Spell Twisting and take Elemental Reinforcement so as to maximize damage with Oppressor. It's great that support MoF is an option, but with the current state of Spellstorm, CWs who are primary (or even secondary, in most cases) DPS do better to utilize a MoF DPS loadout for boss fights unless they themselves are being supported by a MoF. These rare cases have given me my highest damage, but it really only happens when I main DPS for Cradle.
Hopefully Spellstorm will be tweaked to regain its role as the definitive DPS path, but in the meantime, solo CWs have MoF to fill the boss striker role.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Here enters the MOF, whose smolder/rimefire feature ticks every 1.5 sec as, long as target is affected by chill. Curiously, the passive feature (swath of destruction) that buffs smolder damage also increases damage taken by foe for all allies... So, yes, MOF isn't pure DPS, but it doesn't mean it's a no-dps support class.
Oppressor MOF has better support ability than renegade (except for granting Combat Advantage) and better DPS than thaumaturge (in any situation).
However, the pure DPS classes GWF, TR and HR will always beat CW in boss fights, regardless of its build.
My Wizard Guide:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JezPmehRjvkrHQKwEJ9tGGesDuekj2mcfKiWxlx56ns/edit?usp=sharing
My Arbiter Cleric guide:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UZGOcQIMLCh5I4lrH63REK5YVsa3Kpk1hOyfic21z8k/edit?usp=sharing
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
I'm not sure about this but I believe that RoE and Swath of Destruction lowers enemies defenses. Shouldn't a lower defense mean lower defense resistance and that means more damage? If that is the case, than you are already providing a similar buff and your extra damage will help the group out more than a random buff from Chaos Magic.
I do have renegade builds and use it when I get a pug group that does require buffing, typically if the players are under 12K IL. Otherwise I run one of my Oppressor builds.
Prior to the Oppressor updates, Renegade was the way to play as a CW buffer, but now the best way to play as a CW buffer is as an Oppressor build.
Whereas with a MoF, the damage should start slow as the layers build, but soon become a tsunami ticking away. At the end of the day the MoF should do more damage...just in a lot of circumstances...not have the chance. Both builds should be strong. Just have different purposes.
..that said I’m 15.2k and still struggle to feel useful in groups..the solo plays pretty fun though. After returning from about a year off it’s nice to be able to earn Smops, upgrade the enhantments and all while we hope for a bit of a performance boost..
There really isn't that much of a ramp-up with MoF damage on a single target, it's just that SS enjoys greater speed and ease of execution with groups of comparatively low HP trash mobs. Icy Terrain alone sets off immediate volleys of Storm Spell strikes, and Sudden Storm performs extremely well in tightly packed mob swarms, etc.
As much as I've come to enjoy MoF DPS for bosses, I think they should tweak the two paths further at least to make SS a path that's inherently more competitive in the personal DPS department. Not only have the devs left CWs somewhat more challenged to perform compared to other DPS, they've allowed SS to be upstaged to a huge degree due to MoF being able to spec with the same +%damage feats and debuffing for itself with the Smolder mechanic and Swath feature while also running Chilling Presence.
TL;DR: You know SS needs love in the boss DPS department when not only are CWs a bit behind the curve in general, but the supposed debuff/support path typically beats it in any single-target-focused situation.
Small edit: Spellstorm does keep its unique Destructive Wizardry buff, which is nice, but would be better if it didn't require a fully charged Storm Pillar.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Personally, I would like to see a general increase in mobs hp’s and a return to more crowd controlled centric play. That is an across the board thing for me. Slows, snares, roots, and freezes should be useful mechanics, and the only way for that to happen is mobs can’t evaporate after a simple fz. Etc..
Nutshell:
Boost mob hp
Boost the cw’s dps on the whole.
Then look at whether there are still relevant imbalances between Ss and MoF’s.
Here's the nutshell (a count of class representation in TONG from right now):
DC - 14
Pala - 8
GWF - 7
GF - 5
SW - 3
CW - 2 (both MoF, with buff equip, not DPS, even using a terror enchant)
HR -1
Those numbers are actually flattering compared to normal, probably because of the small sample size.
The fact is that the CW is a 3rd rate DPS class, and a 2nd rate buffer, which few want for their party.
Sure, a great buff team can make you their DPS, and you can show a PainGiver screen shot with 1.5 billion damage - but they can do that to any class, and they prefer a DPS class that gets them a quicker finish.
Go run T2 with other end-game DPS classes. Even the GF tank will embarrass you at the same gear score. The difference between you and equally geared end-game HRs, GFs and especially GWFs is enormous. The gap is really wide.
Sharpedge pretty much spent module 12 on his DC, and I've seen very little of him lately.
Voodoo did awesome work with maximizing MoF debuffer and heads up a well attended CW facebook group, but has pretty much given up and left the game.
Cryptic have shown you very clearly that they're not going to increase your CW DPS. It's been over 3 years since our big nerf. When they did class balance a year ago, they saved CW and GWF for last - but never actually did us.
When they decided to end the entity procs that had lightning working well for us, they made 2 quick adjustments (SpellStorm got crit, then the crit got a nerf), to ensure that we stayed exactly where we were.
That's what you need to know about how complex it is, and how long it takes to make careful balancing adjustments: It doesn't take long, it's easy to do, but they very deliberately choose to not do it.
You really need to understand that:
- The class is in an absolute rubbish position, with regard to end-game relevancy and being competitive
- The devs very deliberately have it there, and have no intention of fixing it
- Since mod 12, when they introduced tough content, and people cared about party composition, we're not wanted. Look to your guild and friends for charity, but don't be surprised if they insist you play a non-DPS buffer.
- When new content comes, new drops come, new seals for the best equipment comes, the drop rates are at their best, and the AH prices are at their best. Charity aside, you get to miss to out. At the very least, you get to take a lot longer to get enough runs.
You really think that small differences between the SS and MoF matter? You really think that paying almost 10 mill AD to switch to a Prominence weapon enchant matters? You really think that somehow getting in on enough Castle Ravenloft runs to get the latest gear will matter? You excited about the difference the Orcus set could make to you, now that they've fixed it?
Sure, all those things will make you better than you are, and some of them will feel significant. Fact is, though, you're still going to be a 3rd rate DPS class. Not only that, but the DPS classes that the devs actually look after will get more benefit from those things than you will. TRs, for example, are enjoying Orcus set fixes much more than you will, effectively making them more desirable than you for those valuable end-game runs.
Maximizing the DPS of an end-game CW, relative to other DPS (and even non-DPS) classes, is kinda like been the janitor at the work place. You can brag about how awesome your janitor's broom is, get a better model than the CWs around you, clean and preen it to great shininess - but nobody else cares.
Really.
Best I can tell, the DEVs have sent players a clear message that if they want to play GWF for DPS or DC for support, they can safely spend large amounts of money and be assured a great playing experience without fear of any serious competition from other classes. They'll get an easy run, un-competitive access to parties for all the latest content (best gear, at the highest drop rates and highest prices). They'll get to feel like gods on the PainGiver chart, or the ACT buffer efficiency column.
... but you never know, they just might balance out the SS against the MoF for you...
I was referring to the posts made by the guy above me who seemed more concerned with SS // MoF imbalance, than the class as a whole. Let me just get it out there that i completely agree with you. I'd taken a year off and have been back about 3-4 months. In that time I've solo'd everything possible to build my toon. Largely because it feels, compared to others, I can't fight my way out of a wet paper bag...and no matter how hard I try..which enchantment I roll with..nothing really helps. Heck, now that I'm about 15.3k IL with my crit hovering in the 92-97% range I still get pwn'd by 13k gwf's barely paying attention. Not that I'd want to play a GWF..what a snooze fest that must be..no clue what they are thinking with that class relative to the others..but whatever...
Anyway, for the record and all that, it should be pointed out that, I don't think Spell Storm, should be the definitive DPS paragon. The whole running around with a cone, spray and pray, is great for farming, and dealing with adds, among other situations.. but there also needs to be a place for DoTing, Kiting and laying down some serious damage. Looking forward it would also be good to see crowd control make it back into the game. Crowd control being more than freezing mobs until they evaporate would go a long way to making that happen. That was the crux of my whole mobs need more HP point above. Despite our grotesque shortcomings as a class, the game as a whole seems to encourage people to run around like idiots without much anything in the realm of penalties.
An example: Your in a group situation and you've just engaged 5 mobs, their hp is too high to handle all 5 simultaneously so its the job of cc to handle 2 or 3 (fz, root, snare/kite, etc class depending) while the rest of the group burns down the primary. Ya know, like actual teamwork and stuff! Of course we will need way on the consoles to /assist cause omg...just omg.. it will be necessary
Bringing back CC, as a feature of support, in addition to returning us to competitive DPS, should be a part of the tuning which is hopefully going on, as we speak, at Cryptic. I know...stupid baseless optimism...never the less, its been a long time, and they really need to get it together with regard to us soon.
- The closest to accepted CW DPS variant is single targeting the boss. This is about shatter strike and the group appreciating the controlled momentum buff. This is via the Oppressor path, and DPS is the opposite of what the Oppressor path is meant to be.
- You have the Renegade path. Until the last mod or so, there was at least some desirability, for the MoF Renegade, as pure support. Now, the party crit bonuses are practically irrelevant since the gear these days gets people to 100% crit anyway (end-game), the Combat Advantage isn't a big deal as you can now get it positionally as well as via other classes, the Chaotic Growth healing isn't needed, the chaotic nexus is covered as the party takes care of it's Arpen (again, gear so good now), and chaotic fury is an unreliable 30%.
- The Thaumaturge path is pretty simply the intended DPS CW, which is 3rd rate compared to other classes.
- Aside from Disintegrate, all the powers given us in expanding the class from level 60 to 70 are a joke that nobody uses - Arcane Power Field, Frost Wave and Imprisonment.
Bring back CC? Even if they did it, why would it make CWs any more desirable? The old story was that classes used to argue with each other, basically justifying why some other class shouldn't get any kind of DPS increase, and why they shouldn't get a nerf. The most common thing told to CWs was that they were meant to control, or at least destroy mobs, and not be able to take on the more serious business of boss killing.
People don't even bother with "CWs are Control" or worry about balancing nerfs, as it's become very clear to them over time, that the DEVs aren't bothered.
Well, you seen any other DPS class that can't take out mobs? Even the TR, meant to the paragon of massive boss single target damage, readily wipes out entire mobs with ease, as do virtually all the other classes.
Yeah, the CW class is a broken heap of rubbish design, out of the meta, and getting further away with each passing module.
We're now down to "they really need to get it together with regard to us soon".
That's what I'm trying to tell you. It's the most important bit of all:
- They can easily make us more relevant. They have no intention of doing it.
- They've had plenty of time. Time is not their issue.
- Think of all the time they've spent making new gears with new powers etc. What have they done for the CW?
- For the last 3 modules they've seen a few classes, CW in particular, and DPS CW most of all - unwanted by parties for new content. What have they done about it? Nothing?
- Is the problem a minor one? No! The statistical bias from class counts for end-game content, is massive - absolutely compelling.
You know that when they bring out new year, that attribute increases are the big deal. What did the big DPS Orcus set give? Str + Con. What did the previous big DPS Lostmauth set bring? Str + Dex. What did the awesome Tenser Disk (a mage spell) bring as the ultimate DPS mount back in the day? Str + Dex.
The class has been a mess for many modules now, spanning years, totally neglected and ignored.
You really have absolutely no reason to think that anything is going to change.
At some point you've got to ask yourself, if the DEVs don't like the CW class, and don't care about CWs, could they have made it any more clear than they have been doing, without saying it directly?