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Being ignored for speccing as a MoF Oppressor
vordayn
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
Answered to the call for an MSP on a dungeon channel looking for a MoF.
After the first boss, the queue group leader says I am not a MoF, and said "it's my last time", I presume to run a dungeon with him. Confused I asked why, and he said because he doesn't see the renegade buffs.
I was playing as a MoF oppressor, and told him about the consistent damage buffs/debuffs that oppressor gives vs the random damage buff of renegade. I said I could change to renegade for the 2nd boss, but then he blocked me! While I was in the dungeon! And I was buffing, debuffing, freezing etc the best I could!
LOL.
There seems to be pre-set notions of what CWs are supposed to be now. Some prefer renegades, and others oppressors. It's frustrating when other classes don't know what CWs are able to bring to the table
, especially as an oppressor.
Needless to say, I'll ask next time whether they want a renegade or oppressor. But I won't run with that tank DPS-wanna-be again.
It's already difficult trying to fit a niche role in most parties as a CW MoF buffer/debuffer. How do you guys deal with it?
After the first boss, the queue group leader says I am not a MoF, and said "it's my last time", I presume to run a dungeon with him. Confused I asked why, and he said because he doesn't see the renegade buffs.
I was playing as a MoF oppressor, and told him about the consistent damage buffs/debuffs that oppressor gives vs the random damage buff of renegade. I said I could change to renegade for the 2nd boss, but then he blocked me! While I was in the dungeon! And I was buffing, debuffing, freezing etc the best I could!
LOL.
There seems to be pre-set notions of what CWs are supposed to be now. Some prefer renegades, and others oppressors. It's frustrating when other classes don't know what CWs are able to bring to the table
, especially as an oppressor.Needless to say, I'll ask next time whether they want a renegade or oppressor. But I won't run with that tank DPS-wanna-be again.
It's already difficult trying to fit a niche role in most parties as a CW MoF buffer/debuffer. How do you guys deal with it?
Vordon CW ‡ Vordayn DC ‡ Axel Wolfric GWF ‡ Logain SW ‡ Gawyn GF ‡ Galad OP ‡ Aspen Darkfire HR ‡ Min TR
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Comments
Anyway, anyone who blocks you for your (valid) build choice isn't really worth your time either hah. Don't let it get to you
Renegade is the better choice if there are no other players that are providing CA to the group. For instance if you are running with a TR DPS, Op Tank and 2 DCs the CW should run renegade for CA.
If the group has a class that provides CA the Oppressor build is better as you can do all of the MoF paragon path clas feature debuff/buffs and provide a 10% damage buff from Control Momentum which is almost a 100% up time vs. randomness from Chaos Magic.
Having played with a variety of groups and testing out a variety of ways to play a CW in content, here is what I do based on playing my CW a lot since mod 13.
Adds: SS Oppressor AoE build up to a boss. Typically I am top DPS in runs up to the 1st boss. This build melts stuff fast and does really good damage. It also provides 10% damage buff to the group constantly.
Boss: MoF Oppressor if I am the lone CW. If there is another CW I run SS Oppressor if the other CW is running as a MoF Oppressor or Renegade. If the other CW is running as a MoF Oppressor and CA is needed I run SS Renegade.
Group make up should determine what you run as a CW. I have 6 loadouts and all are fun to play. My favorite one is SS Oppressor followed by MoF Oppressor. I removed my Thaum builds as they are not needed anymore and the SS Oppressor build does more than enough damage in most content.
So for classes like CW, nowadays they often pushed to not do the things that they should be regarding the group, (overall CW still a DPS class and full buffing for a 5 person group is almost always wrong) but what style of play the group leader has decided to run in. I've been in several tongs where the solo main DPS GWF was just jokingly underwhelming, but he insisted to do all alone, because he just did not wanted to acknowledge the fact that he cannot just go and carry. But we still got in like ~35 min, so while I know that with a more DPS-y DO and me as a DPS a solid ~7 min could've been cut... but still, it's not a bad result overall, just a ton of wasted potential.
For me, I just stopped taking seriously. Buffing with the premise of "we don't need you to be effective, just be there as a buffer" is a real incentive to have fun without pressure or just go lazy, take the end reward as payout for supporting someone fake confidence and go. Because you just cannot group for tong in any channel or lfg with DPS CW, no one going to take you. And for me, it's kind of okay, being DPS is expensive and racey for paingiver chart top, which can be stressful with high competition. Certainly not missing it and as the new dungeon difficulty seems like, won't going to either.
Why would u play mof-rene in MSP? a well specced CW (ss-opp) will deal so much damage to the trash on the way up to each boss whilst party buffing as well!
Some of my quickest msp runs have been with a cw as main dps
Play what u want and play with people u like...we r here to have fun!
> Oppressor vs Renegade....
>
> Renegade is the better choice if there are no other players that are providing CA to the group. For instance if you are running with a TR DPS, Op Tank and 2 DCs the CW should run renegade for CA.
>
> If the group has a class that provides CA the Oppressor build is better as you can do all of the MoF paragon path clas feature debuff/buffs and provide a 10% damage buff from Control Momentum which is almost a 100% up time vs. randomness from Chaos Magic.
>
> Having played with a variety of groups and testing out a variety of ways to play a CW in content, here is what I do based on playing my CW a lot since mod 13.
>
> Adds: SS Oppressor AoE build up to a boss. Typically I am top DPS in runs up to the 1st boss. This build melts stuff fast and does really good damage. It also provides 10% damage buff to the group constantly.
>
> Boss: MoF Oppressor if I am the lone CW. If there is another CW I run SS Oppressor if the other CW is running as a MoF Oppressor or Renegade. If the other CW is running as a MoF Oppressor and CA is needed I run SS Renegade.
>
> Group make up should determine what you run as a CW. I have 6 loadouts and all are fun to play. My favorite one is SS Oppressor followed by MoF Oppressor. I removed my Thaum builds as they are not needed anymore and the SS Oppressor build does more than enough damage in most content.
>
> If a TR needs a CW to provide CA for them, they just need to hand their daggers and go do gardening, or pottery, maybe painting. Anything but not TRing.
>
> TR don't need it. That is clear as day as TR easily get CA. It is for the other members of the group as the TR does not provide CA to the group.
Dazing strike providesign CA to the group
The main disadvantage of Rene the chaotic fury is random and rare.
Te oppressor provides less buff then chaotic fury but its very important that you can time your burst dmg after buffs/debuffs and Rene cant control that.
Even if with the latest DC nerf chaotic fury became prolly the best party buff in the game its usage is limited.
CA can be provided by a GF with a mere mark.
Not to mention while Oppressors with better dps capstone has some dmg Renegades usually not.
That being said in raids the lag can be so great that its hard to time your buffs/burst dmg so Rene can shine again.
As a CW I prefer the Oppressor build for the 10% consistent damage buff of Controlled Momentum over randomness of the Chaos Magic.
There are many ways now to play a CW and with these options it really opens the door for CW to try out various builds and see which build work for the player and the groups they run with.
I know I typically run as SS Oppressor until the boss. On the boss I run MoF Oppressor Single Target build with Chilling Presence slotted instead of combustive reaction because the primary group I run with we all use Tigers, sword Trio or the dancing shield; this results in some good debuff from our companions plus our tanks use Plague Fire, I'm using a Vorpal which does further debuffing, etc....
If you are not having fun playing the class than I recommend taking a break. Getting into groups is a pain though as a CW and it is due to many players not knowing what a CW offers for buffing, debuffing, and damage in groups.
Most people love to play a DPS CW, and if you trawl through the history of posts here, you'll see "DPS" in most of them. Sorry guys, no "DPS" relevance for you. Running as support is your best bet for any kind of relevance to a meta group for new mod runs when the drop rate is best and the AH prices highest.
Even then, line up the support buffs you bring, compared to other classes, and we're easily 2nd rate at best.
As for taking a break, you have no reason to expect that anything will change if you come back.
Finally, 3 years after the Great Mod 6 Nerf Exodus, they started tweaking our class. They killed off entity procs (that awesome CW lightning thing), then buffed and nerfed to make sure we ended up back where we were - 3rd rate DPS. Yes, they finally touched our class, and made sure it stayed where it was.
No reason to come back later, thinking anything will be better.
Your best bet would be some indication from the DEVs that 3DPS-tank-healer will actually mean something again one day, but it just looks like the meta continues with 1/2 DPS+3/4 support from here on. If parties did have 3DPS, you'd statistically fill that 3rd spot.
BTW, Vordayn isn't quite correct about the random buffs of the Rene (the original post).
The uptime of Chaotic Fury is well beyond the stated tool tip chance, and sufficient reason for a party to demand that a 2nd rate support CW be a MoF Rene rather than a MoF Oppressor. The Rene combat advantage uptime is also very reliable. Check ACT logs to confirm.
From a support perspective you offer them nothing with Oppressor over Rene. Don't bother trying a "mob control" freeze spin on it. This was meant to be what CWs brought to the table, but the DEVs took your importance in that area away from you a long time ago.
That ain't fair, but it's reality. As long a Cryptic promote the GWF as the easy to play, OP DPS class that you can safely pour money into without fear of balance changes, buffed through the roof with a support party, this is the reality you have to deal with.
Now if you do run two buff CW in content one can run MoF Renegade or MoF Opressor and the other run SS Renegade or SS Oppressor, depending upon who has what builds. As for the Thaum build, I have ran with some 16-18K CW using Thaum vs. my Oppressor builds and I squeeze out just as much damage as they do and I'm giving a 10% damage buff constantly. After those runs I one of the CW wanted the Oppressor build to help groups out with the damage buff.
At first I kept two Thaum builds AoE and single target builds but after playing so much content I dropped the Thaum build for a Single Target SS Oppressor build and MoF AoE Oppressor build. I'm glad I dropped the DPS builds for additional DPS Suport builds. I dropped my DPS builds because 14K GWF and HR with R7 enchants can keep up with my CW it is clear that the CW needs some love to be competitive. Unfortunately the only love we really have right now is as support players. With six loadouts I can play of the CW support builds.
I hope the devs take another look at CWs and adjust something to make CW a bit more competitive as a DPS because CWs are no GWF, SW, TR or HR. Right now CWs against any other DPS when that both are played to its full potential, CW is the worst DPS class in the game.
For Oppressor, you have:
- Controlled Momentum: 10% damage buff for allies whenever you use a controlling power (testers have stated the tooltip is incorrect and applies 10% damage buff to the party, not 5%). Up time is 100% as long as you use a controlling power every 6 seconds.
- Bitter Cold: Targets take 5% more damage after being chilled
- Frigid Winds: Targets take 10% more damage after being frozen (mobs only)
- Capstone is much better than before. Shatterstrike does about 15-20% of total DPS as long as you are using the correct powers to proc it
- You can still do considerable damage if you slot Chilling Presence and take Icy Veins. It provides quicker and more consistent damage buffs for yourself.
Combat Advantage can be granted in other ways by other party members as discussed above. However, if there is no-one in the party that can provide consistent CA, then the Rene would be more useful than the Oppressor in a party.
Having said that, a MoF Oppressor is not a substitute for a good DPS. We are firmly 2nd or 3rd tier DPS still. Some DPS players may feel threatened by your damage, however, and think that you aren't buffing properly if you are contributing a lot of damage. That is what I think happened above as well - I was rivalling the 'DPS-GF' for damage, and he thought I wasn't properly buffing the party, which is sad, as he did not understand the buffs I was providing, and wanted me to be purely support instead (even though in MSP there are a lot of adds still, which is one of the few places CWs still do shine).
Hence, I have a number of loadouts now, depending on the party:
1. MoF Oppressor (Single Target)
2. MoF Rene
3. SS Oppressor
4. SS Thaum AoE
5. SS Thaum (Single Target)
I have hardly used loadouts 3-5 since Mod 13. I run loadouts 1 or 2 depending on the party and what we are facing. MoF Rene still seems more fluid to me, as I only have to look out for Smoulder/Rimefire buffs. MoF Oppressor seems to hit harder, but is less fluid - maybe it is because I am continually looking to apply maximum chill stacks, alongside Smoulder/Rimefire (although watching Shatterstrike and Rimefire finish off mobs while I am walking away is satisfying).
I would love to be a 'DPS' character again - that is what I signed up for when I made my first CW. But those days are long gone, and I feel that the devs have no interest at all in making any improvements for this class in the near future.
What I said was "From a support perspective you offer them nothing with Oppressor over Rene."
However good you feel your personal DPS is, they don't care. They care about how well you buff their chosen DPS.
You are 3rd rate DPS, and they're far more interested in your Chaotic Fury boosting their primary DPS by a multiplicative 30%, than whatever you can do with Oppressor personal DPS. It's down to the *party* usefulness of Oppressor's Controlled Momentum against Rene's (very good uptime of) Chaotic Fury, plus Uncertain Allegiance and Nightmare Wizardry, if the main DPS hasn't topped out crit or combat advantage isn't coming from somewhere else. A pure support CW will also choose weapon enchants and artifacts and maybe pets differently to a CW trying to be DPS.
Mathematically, they're right. This is what the meta is. They pick one DPS, and boost the wazoo out of them with multiplicative buffs. Nobody needs the CW to handle mobs anymore, and any choice you make to boost your personal DPS over party DPS (like pick Oppressor over Rene), makes you less useful as a member of their meta. You are 3rd rate DPS and your buffs to the primary DPS are more valuable to them than your personal DPS.
Sorry, harsh reality. I tried to warn in these forums before the release of mod 12, where content was going to get tough, that if they didn't finally balance DPS, we would be out in the cold. I had basically all the known theorycrafters here telling me that CWs were in a good place, and I needed to go work on my build. I suspect that these theorycrafters were impressed with what they were doing in their private parties with their maxed builds, buffed by friend support.
Then mod 12 rose, giving birth to the meta. The truth is that the support can make *any* DPS viable, but they get through the run faster if they're not inviting a 3rd rate DPS option, like a CW. Sharpedge spent virtually the whole module on his DC, and the others have all gone quiet. Youtubers that looked for clicks making CW DPS build videos have all gone and found something else to do. For the longest time, there were very few CWs in TONG, and the few that were in successful parties got there by being convincing as support.
Appreciate that the support can choose to make your Oppressor an incredible DPS, and many of you may have support friends that convince you you're awesome - but you're actually a 3rd rate choice for that role, and that is the CW landscape today.
Personally, I came to Neverwinter to play a DPS mage, and my last 3 years were disappointing, with my last 2 modules a joke. To be a wanted MMO DPS mage, I'll need a massive teleport that gets me all the way to Habicht Empire, at the end of the month.
Many meta parties don't properly consider uptime of buffs, and by getting it correct, you move the perception of us being 3rd rate DPS and 2nd rate support to being 3rd rate DPS and 3rd rate support.
By convincing them that you may as well be an Oppressor, you're most likely to convince them that they don't want you for either DPS or support. Spellstorm is now completely dead, and you've got to hope that your MoF passive buffs are convincing enough to break something like the 2 x DC.
--- Edit ---
Well, turns out I agree with you more than you'd expect.
I'd heard Chaotic Fury up-times of around 60%, but I've just done my own testing, and am pretty sure it's statistically 30% (a little delay between re-procs), exactly as the tool tip says. I think people had been just counting the procs in ACT/logs, but the Fury and Nexus procs create 2 log entries, while Growth makes a single log entry. You need to 1/2 the number of procs you see in logs.
So, statistically, Controlled Momentum and Chaotic Fury are the same, with CM being reliable (non-random). For staggered quick mob fights (10-25 seconds), you'll too often get no buff from chaotic fury.
I don't think high-end parties should be demanding the Crit or CA advantages of a Rene these days. Main DPS can easily get themselves to 100% crit, and CA is easy to come by, especially with bosses (where it really counts) and the positional fix done recently.
Good call.
Not good for our Support Viability Credentials, but it is what it is, and there's always the utility of Icy Veins on mobs to make things that much smoother.
Problem these days is more the fact that 50% of your team is set in stone with 2xOP and 3xDC, air is getting thin for 2. rate supporter.
Beside that I did not meat many dps CW´s these days. The ones I met (2-3) were even or better than my buglock concerning focus damage, wich proves a CW to be a viable dps class in my eyes, since that buglock is a pretty good dps on single targets. Whatever that dps setup looks like, there is one even being told to be dead.
You can´t see lot´s of warlocks going for dps these days either, but the class can fill that role in it´s bugged form, definitely.
Some player spamming the chat near every day obviously did not even recognize the option of playing a support-hunter these days, NWO-community is a pretty bad informed community in general I´d say.
Running codg or dungeons these days favour some classes (TR, Hunter, GWF) and exclude others (CW, SW) for some reason I can´t understand completely tbh. I would run with every class as main dps these days, from what I think hunter seems to be the strongest in codg these days.
From 10 replies towards player looking for a hdps in random queue, I get 10 times no answer or reponses like: "Sorry full
In my eyes this is more about misinformations and prejudices from a big chunk of the community against classes and setups.
I´d like to see more dps CW´s, same as dps warlocks
*Unless you are planning very specific cheese setups involving the extra DC. Well, it's not like that's an understatement in the slightest.
2 dps more or less: 3 DC and 2 OP, even though I think that devo is not needed and a buffhunter (even more cheesy) takes his place in some cases.
One DC drops of near every time in my observation and even runnig a 2 DC setup and one dps on top, the difference is not that high, since you allways find that devo and the two AC´s buffing 2 out of 3 dps, and dps N° 3 and 4 will miss DO and GF and PoP buffs in the buffer group, in theory missing an up to 3.18 multiplier in dps (if bane is calculated like 1.1x1.1x1.1?). Honestly I´d like to see more groups skipping devo and 2. AC, but there are none.
It´s your cheese setup wich is found in near 100% premade and random runs I entered in my timezone (most of those players are not bad honestly): dps group made of 2 dps, templock, GF, DO and buffer group made of 2AC, 2OP (or 1prot + cheesehunter), 1 mof. Cheese-safety-setup 100%, found in NWO since ages in every mod dominating the chat if you did follow chat´s ?
Sure you can run 1 prot, 2 DC, 1 mof, 1 temp, 1 GF, and 4dps but you do not find any groups build like that sadly. Last I entered was a simple waste of time tbh, bad performance by sure.
Even doing tong you find double DC cheese setup in many many cases. Farming dungeons in mmo´s like this, the player normally tend to run the easy cheesy and fast way, nothing changed in mod 13 in NWO. I recommend some redwine on top of that cheese
You talk about theory I talk about reality.
Cheesesetup N°1 mod 13: GF-2x dps-templock-DO // prot-OP, AC DC, buffhunter/devo, mof, and the "safety-AC/DC"
guess there are more and maybe cheesier ones, involving dps GF´s by sure.
Group 1:
- Conq GF with ITF
- Temp SW with Soul Bonding+duckonplate.
- DO DC with BtS, TI, HG.
- 2 more dps (GFs are counted as dps as well).
Group 2:- MoF Oppressor with Controlled momentum+swath, they don't need to use combustive since the debuffs will be so high the diminishing returns simply makes it not worth it, so a dps spec.
- HR with Longstrider's Shot.
- AC DC with exaltation/AA/FF.
- Devotion OP, baning the Conq GF and the 2 DPS.
- MoF Oppressor with Combustive+controlled momentum+CP, or SS Oppressor. Controlled momentum stacks across wizards, which makes it an extra 10% instance wide buff. Alternatively, an AC DC whose only goal is to empowered exalt the other 2 dps.
This group composition should reach the potential "maximum" dps, given that all the people in the group know how to play and do not fall off.Group 1:
- DPS DO
- DPS GF
- SW (Templock/HB Fury)
- me running MoF Oppressor with Swath
- 1 more DPS - GF, GWF, TR, HR or even DPS AC can work lol (I ran myself DPS AC and was put in DPS group for party buffs and it was nuts topping paingiver)
Group 2:
- OP (sometimes Prot, sometimes Devo, but without keybinds more often it's Prot)
- AC
- DO
- 2 more buff/DPS classes - HR, GF, MoF Renegade with Combustive, Templock
But I've also been in couple good fast runs that had only 2-3 actual DPS classes and the rest was support.
What I hate the most is when people form group with Prot, Devo and 2 AC DCs in one group and put me in there arguing "you're MoF" assuming I do no damage but keep 2 HRs in DPS group, automatically stating that HR by default is good enough DPS to be in group with all party buffs, but MoF isn't.
And I can't stand that there's still going on around the opinion that CW, and especially MoF CW, can't DPS. After all MoF Oppressor is still primarily DPS spec that also provides 60% prediminished DR debuff (Bitter Cold, Swath, RoE on tab) and 10% buff from Controlled Momentum with 100% up time. How is that any different than e.g. Conq GF who also is DPS spec and provides 30% buff with ITF, CA with mark and few DR debuffs with mark, crushing pin and probably something else I forgot at the moment? People still treat MoF CW like its only purpose is support with buff and debuff. But I blame for that the fact that most of the people running CW without even understanding the class and mechanics switched to so called "full buff debuff MoF" just so they could find groups easier, and all they do is give bad reputation the rest showing others they can place below or barely beat AC on paingiver in T9G, while running 18k CW.
I strongly disagree with the statement that MoF Oppressor is no substitute for good DPS. If that would be true, it shouldn't be possible hitting 30-40 mil Disintegrates and 40-55 mil Ice Knives, wouldn't it? After all we've been so nerfed recently, right?
> I strongly disagree with the statement that MoF Oppressor is no substitute for good DPS. If that would be true, it shouldn't be possible hitting 30-40 mil Disintegrates and 40-55 mil Ice Knives, wouldn't it? After all we've been so nerfed recently, right?
>
> That is nothing compared to 120+ mil GW and the most recent Mod 14 preview 750mil SOD.
CW is not burst damage class like GF, you can't really compare it that way. Even DC has better burst. But it doesn't mean its damage is not good.
> > @vordayn said:
> > I strongly disagree with the statement that MoF Oppressor is no substitute for good DPS. If that would be true, it shouldn't be possible hitting 30-40 mil Disintegrates and 40-55 mil Ice Knives, wouldn't it? After all we've been so nerfed recently, right?
> >
> > That is nothing compared to 120+ mil GW and the most recent Mod 14 preview 750mil SOD.
>
> CW is not burst damage class like GF, you can't really compare it that way. Even DC has better burst. But it doesn't mean its damage is not good.
To be fair, is 40 mill disintegrates and 40 mill ice knives that impressive? Im a bit out of the loop on CW's but even my Prot OP can hit 18 mill smites and 20 mill dj's in cradle.