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Lack of testing went too far this mod.
miguelfdz
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 149 Arc User
Again we got a Mod with to many bugs and mistakes. Some are really simple, maybe some are really visible to players and not so obvious to devs.
At this moment you can't expect to players actually test the whole content of the new mod on preview before the launch. This can be solve easily by adding a reward system on live server with different categories:
At this moment you can't expect to players actually test the whole content of the new mod on preview before the launch. This can be solve easily by adding a reward system on live server with different categories:
- Campaign completion on preview should be rewarded by the equivalent of expedition leader pack (or part of it).
- Players who successfully complete the new dungeon/skirmish/epic trial get 5 legendary dragon keys on live server, any feedback/bug report that you think is relevant to the development of the game gets 5 extra keys.
- Players who unlock the new recipes of masterwork on preview get 10% of discount/materials on live server (Just 1 time per account).
- Player who provide a nice RNG test feedback will get the new item in question at the live server, this includes heavy farming/grinding on preview and the results of it.
- Players who provide a formal bug report or feedback about class changes get 10 preservation wards. This must be reasoned with evidence and numbers.
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Comments
- VIP doesn't exist on preview. This is the main reason I don't spend lots of time on preview, and trust me I would love to spend more time on it. VIP signpost, bank, mail, I pay for all that on live server because it just gives so much QoL, and I can't have that on preview. Try testing hunt system with unique items on preview without signpost and mailpost...
- There is no campaign speed-up. I like the fact that you can test the different parts and quests of the campaign, to explore the classic progression. However, at some point everything should be open for everyone, in order to be tested. I don't want to spend weeks on preview to finish the campaign and test Cradle of the Death God, only to start from scratch again on live after that. Instances should be open for everyone to get more feedback and testing.
- Lots of ressources are available on preview for testing, and that's awesome. Unparalleled enchantements, Ultimate Enchanting Stones, Stronghold ressources and such.
=> However, some new stuff, related to the new lockbox and the Zen Market are not available. New pets such as the Tiger can't be tested. And that causes issues, just have a look at the Mod 12 Chultan pet that leaded to some people unlocking progressions in a not intented way. This could have been tested.
=> I saw when I was on preview that a few people "had the chance" to get the new Triceratops. How in Earth is that possible? Just make it available for everyone so that we can test if there are any graphic bugs, if the mount power is WAI, and other stuff. This should not be for few people only, it's just not right, it's not how a test server work.
However, while I do find the preview needs some love, in order to be more attractive to get more feedback and test, I disagree that preview people should have live server compensation in item.
It would be nice to get a special title, like "Preview explorer" or something, or a special achievement, or even some special BtA transmutes. But "useful" items (for the progression I mean) like wards, or MasterWork discount should not exist. You do not go on preview to have a financial advantage over others. You go on preview to test stuff, discover campaign and new opportunities, offer some feedback to the devs because you like the game and don't want it to be bugged or exploited.
Then I would make check list for each content release. "We're releasing new item with power..what player might want to know? Is that bonus working for x class? Will that power be sharable?". If it's straight answers are the best. Each module the same type questions arise. If there are limited resources then allow us to test it. For example all hunt items should be available from vendor. I saw multiple people asking for X hunt item on preview because they wanted to test it. Same applies for new zen items - I believe than it was waste of developers time to log and give items to players (on several occasions) instead of putting it in vendor. Actually anything that appears in new collections should be available for testing straight away.
Same applies to acces to new content - so we're not forced to go through whole campaign and we can test it right away. It give more time to discover and fix bugs. You could just temporary increase idols (like from 5 to 25 from quests) so people will still do quests and test them too but they will not waste too much time.
And again..communication is the key. Like you don't want to put (like @cambo1682 mentioned) "we nerfed CW dps by X, have fun testing during weeked" and call it a day. I saw proper replies later in the reddit AMA (for what I don't agree but it's still better to see half page response explaining dev team angle on it). Then we could actually try to understant the change, test it with that info in mind and answer after reaching our conclusions.. . Right now anyone sane after seeing "we're nerfing you, that's it" would cry first because there isn't any explanation behind this and no room for discussion.
We do try to address as much as possible. Some times some things will slip and we try to recover quickly. For example, we were alerted of the Cordon of Arrow only hitting one target during preview. I brought it up to a Dev in person and we determined it did need looking into because something seemed off. But I didn't follow up with it in written form and therefore no further action was taken during the preview period. That was on me but thankfully once M13 went live and I saw it come up, we were able to fix it soon after the release. There is no ignoring feedback or intentional oversight.
I'm not saying anything new here and I know your posts come from a place of passion for the game. I just know how much our QA team works their butts off and I hate to see them blasted.
/steps off soapbox.
Of course, there aren't enough hours in a decade to address EVERY issue of today, and some decision are just going to be unpopular, but in the vacuum of silence, the imagination runs wild. Things that would be helpful include a "Known Issues" list, a "Not Working As Intended" list, and/or a "Fixes still being worked on" list. I get if you might not prefer to advertise those things to the broader public, but stating those things in the Preview forums would be great.
Going a bit further, another strategic issue that keeps popping up is frequent nerfing or bug-fixing that is either done in sledge-hammer fashion, or done without any counter-balancing compensation.
- One example is fixing the re-log exploit people were using to get around the janky pull-push in the new trial. Of course is was an exploit. However, people were using it to get around real issues of lag, grasping hands, companion loss, etc. that make it really unfair and unfun for a LOT of people. Those issues should have been addressed first. At least putting a campfire at the bottom of the elevator would be a nice gesture to buy some time to address those other issues.
- Another example is the myriad nerfs to Controls Wizards (or that at least disproportionally effect CWs) without any compensation. More specifically, the Storm Spell nerf that was ultimately resolved (more or less). Pages of protest and proof went unanswered, leaving everyone to assume the overnerf was intended and permanent. It caused a major shift in the CW paradigms that were then silently changed a couple weeks later. On a deeper level, does Storm Spell represent way too large a share of the SS CWs damage? Of course it does, but that's about all we have! That's why everyone assumed it was intended, because there is a clear and abundant history of cutting the legs out from under a class or path with no compensation for YEARS. Just look at Warlocks.
In both of these cases (among MANY others), either waiting until the devs can give a little when they take, or at least saying "Hey guys, we know this is tough, but we are actively trying to address this further to smooth things out, and we hope to have some improvements in place sooner than later." would take out a LOT of the sting. As it is, it feels like there is just way too much stick and very little carrot. No one is able to assume any improvements to anything are forthcoming.
I mean Dungeons and dragons.. dungeons?
Most CoDG I end up 1. without companion , 2. dead because atropal bugs out and knocks me down or graps me during the pullphase, or I get killed by random aoe waiting endlessly for the "pull-phase" to start.. or i simply fail.
The more player are dead I feal, the more aoe appears? Sometimes there are redzones (the small ones) chained like a hailstorm three times in a row? Sometime all aoe is coupled at once. The one you have to run to your tank combined with the one you have to run out of group, combined with the inner or outer red circle combined with that fkn hailstorm... really I can´t even see what´s happening under my feet standin in Pillar of Power, Circle of Power on top (undetecabel death incomming)... no clue how to set graphics to handle this bombardement of visual effects
You overestimate your customers skills (and pings) definitely?
Without "superhuman dodging skills" my char has to die 100% to this.
Like this codg is a waist of scrolls, especially for those who mastered those mechanics and are punisehd by bugs during a fight again and again.
There are bearly capable player willing to join any party because they are the ones that pay the bill all time, not the ones that drop of at the start and sit in a wheelchair at campfire.
Those player burn up to 10 scrolls (61k AD) in a run, since their mates died, the team is up to 4 and Atropal, healed up to 50% after defeating Acererak, spending a huge part of the fight by "diving" and throwing aoe at you in an untargetable "stance"
A smart guy simply sells his scrolls in the AH to those players and jumps of the circle right at the start to prevent any costs and to increase the demand for scrolls on the other hand ... a weird kind of business idea, but doing codg sincerely the other way is a huge AD waist compared to other stuff ingame.
Call it hardcore- or horror-mod
Only to underline my pov, I don´t care that much about a ring or a gear not to drop, same as I don´t care that much about some crafting receipes not working 100%, same as I don´t care that much about a weekly not being rewarding enough (maybe I am a minority by that)... I care about the most central part of a game in my eyes: content that is fun to play and maybe rewarding too, but regarding what I am doing in NWO atm, the fun part drops, when core-issues are simply massivley bugged.
Anyway at least find a fast solution for that vanishing companions everywhere and anytime, this is one of the most annoying things by far, let us recall them in fight at least, since you are not going to solve this issue, it´s gonna pop up next mod or the mod after it again 100% like a zombie.
Test your stuff at least "once" and tell me about your experiences please !
I mean your core of the mod is so bugged.. I never experienced something compareable.
This should be your first goal/target to fix immidiately, the longer you wait the more player get really angry.
/pulled back into soapbox (and pushed a bit on top)
The feeling of a lack of testing before a build is put out is not just to do with new modules. I'll bring up a really old one to make the point. The lightning jars in the ToD area of Rothe. A fix was put in to reduce the number required (and I think to allow you to share them). The end result was that the counter never incremented at all and the quest couldn't be completed. How can something like that get past ANY internal testing at all.
The sort of bug where if you wear this costume item with that weapon enchantment and use this power it crashes the game is what the players should find for you on PTS as you just can't test every combination.
The simple single factor bugs where something just flat out doesn't work should never make it on to live, and really should be caught (or at least recognised and noted as known issues if there isn't time to fix them) before they get to PTS.
I think you should update preview with new mods as soon as you implement features, because then people can test for bugs early on. I think your playerbase would be more than willing enough to help you develop a good, bug-free mod, and to be honest, if you intend to do any major changes, getting an opinion from the player-side testers such as Sharpedge would be invaluable to you, and pretty much a must-have for any form of overhauls to any system.
Giving us no spoilers for the new mod is great for more casual players, but considering how much stuff changes in a single mod... especially now that you acknowledged that SW and TR need some form of a rework. Someone who has more experience running with those classes will definitely be able to help you make adjustments. Don't be afraid to ask for people's opinions and assistance.
If there are successful before proven ways how about this ; USE THEM.
In this game I played in every preview test until they launched Pal where every tested written reported thing was totally ignored only to be proven time after time after time again.
This was the case with Tr in the dragon campain where they run around one shotted Dragons and that had been reported as a bugg weeks before it went live the devs answer to the outcry that came was OH we had no idea.
Then it was CW aoe Hr lifegain Gwf that was more or less scraped for a time etc etc.
What other games that do this successful doe´s is find a core of players put them together with devs and find out what works and what does not work and use the majority of the other playerbase to find out all the hard to find bugs.
Ask around and trust me there are SOOOOOO many good know it all players out there that would love to help you not only testing the new content they would help you LOGG every single power, spell, item damage aoe cc etc etc down to the very microcosmos.
Ofc they should have rewards but that can come in many forms like unique items (for some reason hardcore players just love those and will go out of their way to get them) to zen or ad or a headstart on next expansion.
Devs do not know this game as hard core player does simple as that.
This is not rocket science it is a well tested and proven way, why NW refuse to adopt it is a mystery I am certainly not the first person that mention this.......
If you have problems with the way you run your process now - and you obviously have problems, else there wouldn't be permanent player claims that you ignore the community - maybe you should change your deployment process. Have you ever thought about publishing new content and bigger changes in smaller pieces to the preview server? Why not publishing already now pieces of Mod 13b or 14 (not sure if you continue the a/b stuff) to the preview? Features that your developers and QA think is finished? Apparently players are willing to perform excessive tests on preview for you, if the published potions are smaller, it is more likely that fixes can be done faster.
Has this email been sent yet? "IF COMPANIONS KEEP RANDOMLY DISAPPEARING YOU ARE GOING TO START LOSING PLAYERS. Why should I fork over cash for a shiny new companion that's just going to disappear?"
How about we pass a petition that even the CMs/Devs/Mods can give 'feedback' with the same lack of restrictions as the rest of the forums. THEN we will see some real communication....
Unfortunately, customers can act as they wish in most cases, but employees need to take it or leave.
On the other side, radio silence on serious problems will always cause pessimism and cynicism amongst the playerbase. In time, it will cause tempers to flare. It's human nature. We intuitively feel that if something seems to be being hidden or kept secret from us, it must be bad or even malicious.
I think there are also a couple different categories that can be treated differently though. The first obvious category pertains to bugs, exploits, balancing, and design flaws. These need to be treated openly and honestly, admitting mistakes when necessary, and communicating that it's either being looked into, or better yet, that solutions are in the works. Even admitting that something isn't on the radar right now is helpful so people at least know what to expect.
The other category are things that are just gonna hurt no matter what, but are felt to be needed. The Bonding nerf falls into this category. It can be helpful to telegraph these things well ahead of time so people have time to get used to the idea. If 3-6 months before the Bonding nerf happened, the message was clearly getting out there that that gravy train wasn't gonna last for much longer, the announcement wouldn't have seen so much panic. Oh, and the "We're gonna TOTALLY DEMOLISH Bondings, oh wait, we'll just cut them in half instead" trick to try to soften the blow was cheap and not at all cool.
A possible future example could be if Feytouched Enchants are gonna be reeled back in Mod 14. That would need to be hinted at NOW to give people (and the market) time to get used the idea. In that hypothetical, if people don't find out until Mod 14 hits preview (or especially don't find out until launch day) there will be panic in the streets since that's now pretty much the BIS enchant for everyone.
Also, sometimes these "tough pills to swallow" just need to run their course, and if it's something that's really not negotiable, that needs to also be stated strongly.
Money is the only argument the heads above devs do recognize