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Honest question to the Devs:
ltgamesttv
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
Honest question to the devs. From a player perspective it's hard to understand the decision to put in rings that negate class mechanics like revealing stealth, or gear that give the benefit of a classes abilities like dazing/stunning players.
From a player's perspective it's hard to understand why being able to drain a player's ability to perform dailies, or even to dodge in order to avoid attacks would be a thing.
I was hoping to get an answer as to the thought process behind taking away class mechanics or granting class mechanics through gear and boons were from the devs?
@mimicking#6533 @terramak
From a player's perspective it's hard to understand why being able to drain a player's ability to perform dailies, or even to dodge in order to avoid attacks would be a thing.
I was hoping to get an answer as to the thought process behind taking away class mechanics or granting class mechanics through gear and boons were from the devs?
@mimicking#6533 @terramak
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
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As far as broken damage or classes, that's another thing entirely and comes from trying to balance PVP and PVE simultaneously. However, broken gear is completely another category in my mind. So, I'd like to better understand the thought process behind it.
To be honest, there are players in my guild who've said "everything is broken, and PVP is Solo Q FFA, why should we nerf ourselves against people who could care less?". It becomes harder and harder to make a "higher ground" argument when the devs continue to create this type of gear and players use it like mad in Solo Q.
It's so comical because I could use that broken mechanic on a broken class to devastating effect. I have all those rings, the pants, access to drains. I have every nasty piece of broken gear ever released in this game. Rings of vision, rings of ambush.... I have them all. So does all my guild. We complain because we think, for the good of the game, these items only make imbalances worse.
It is literally the worst logic in the world to assume that a TR who doesn't use broken gear would not be *even more* broken if they did for example. People simply don't think through what they're saying about this type of gear and the suggestions I put forth.
If my entire guild used everything in their arsenal and went back into PVP nonstop.... the number of complaints on this forum would rise exponentially. However, some are too short sighted to be able to understand this, they always have been.
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Drains, Ring of Ambush, Ring of Vision, Manticore Mane, and probably a few others.
GWF doesn't remove class mechanics, it uses it's own to break free from certain abilities, I think you have it all wrong here friend. Unstoppable is an important mechanism for GWFs otherwise they would be at the mercy of all CC having classes with no recourse. I feel a lot of class mechanics operate as a check and balance system. The damage of certain classes or control of certain classes needs to be addressed, however gear is NOT how to deal with that.
Survivability of TRs is due to deflect severity in combination with ITC and bloodbath, both which grant a certain degree of damage immunity. ITC is buggy as heck as any TR will tell you and almost anything will bug it out. Jumping, moving, being hit with CC when you pop it, so many factors can cause you to use it and lose it without the helpful side effects. These need to be fixed as well. However, people will say "don't fix them till you nerf them first"... I think both should occur. Fix them and dial back their damage. However, this discussion was not about that, and there are multiple derailing type comments here that show that.
My primary post was to see what the devs input was, people keep putting words in their mouths, perhaps they are correct, but there's only one way to know. To actually let the Devs answer themselves for each of these pieces of gear and why they were implemented in the first place. I did NOT intend to start a discussion about a single class here, or to have someone air their vendetta against a certain player (me apparently
Many of the people who claim to be PVPers nowadays in the game at this point were the players who no proper PVP guild would have in prior mods due to massive abuse of these types of mechanics. When most guilds had ruled against using them, these guys would leave guilds or be kicked rather than stop using them.
They will never understand as, to them, it's available so why not use it and rake in even more kills in pug match solo Q FFA?
all those rings and "broken" overloads are not much diffrent than your deadly combo or other classes powers.
those items don't depend on stat and should give new players an option.
the drains are fail i agree (even that AP drain against TR might be the only option...)
the rest are not too bad
Posting like this about how does dev see it and just that taking a higher ground and trying to convince other pvp oriented guilds to do the same for the better of pvp is most likely a very good way.
Drains, invisibility for others then Tr(even if myself i think shadowclad is kinda cool) chain stunning items used in mass will contradict the very essence of pvp that is being able to fight with what the class gives you as you pointed out and not with what broken items/powers might for the time being give you....
There is NOTHING in game experienced players do not have. Therefore, if experienced players stop self policing, new players would suffer more. If i equip every type of stun gear on my TR and ring of vision, there is nothing that will threaten me. I will simply stun and get out of the problem or see the other TR who could've threatened me.
I wish people would follow this "fix broken with broken" logic out to the end. When I play TR, I have dailies up every 5-6 seconds, drains + dailies = you're hosed. I also have access to the ability to increase their effectiveness with boons. Guys this is not a solution, it makes a "broken class" even more broken.
Yes and no.
I do not think I lost objectiveness overall but toward those Tr:s that troll pvp non stop day out and day in with broken perma sod build I would go so far to say that am tired enough of it to be fully objective
It is not just that Tr as a class is broken atm we see 3-4 tr out of 10 players each game and if some leave we often see 4-5 Tr it is by far the most played class in pvp not only because it stand out as godlike at high IL but it also preforms very well at relative low IL.
I might be wrong my my guess is that the pvp system suffer when a certain class is so much better then the rest, having the best cc damage(yea Gf Gwf hurts but it is not piercing and you at least see them comming) and survivability clumped together in one class is not a good idea...
OK
1) so when you finish a fight with 32 kills 0 death you actually doing us a favor? if you will use umbush ring and shadow encahnt you will reach 82 kills 0 death??? guess i have to thank you
2) you are saying some broken powers are legit, for example SoD + blood bath. but if I try to counter it with AP drain it's wrong... how did you reach this conclusion? your guild leader decide it? or you all vote for it? do you have list of all the broken powers we shouldn't use and the one we are allowed?
3) you are saying those items will not help new players, yet you comlpain about it 10 times in this thread alone
*i can also write in captial letters, but its usually happen in PVP where i miss click caps lock and shift
** I do not expect the pitty of TR, GF or OP in PVP. if you still think you should do it, i advise you to go back and do a few colors tiamat, hope youll enjoy
2) I never said TR SoD was legit. I actually have posted on multiple occasions the opposite, and this isn't a post about TR, other posters have tried to de-rail the discussion and are succeeding apparently. You still don't get something as simple as, thinking about what happens if I use AP drains and stamina drains on my TR with dailies up every 5 seconds.
3) I'm saying these items won't help anyone if everyone uses them. I'm complaining they're broken for everyone. I'm also explaining in as simple terms as humanly possible that you are using very flawed logic and yet are refusing to see it.
4) I use caps to emphasize words for those who can't see it for themselves, it's not yelling per se as much as trying to point out the important bits slowly and more pronounced.
to supplement a weak class if its a new player or a vet player alike with such items ..also the warlock is counting on the fact that everyone is NOT using them to give him the advantage ..so would this help the "new player" or not
its not the theoretical" if all bis used broken stuff " part of your argument that if off it is the in practice part ...
so should the warlock re roll for flavour of the month or use items that are free and cheaper then rank 12s and 13s to supplement his build ..and is still getting wrecked but til feels better about himself getting the odd kill on a BIS person not using said items
bad matchmaking = using bad items free for all and who cares anymore at this point really have you seen a pro pvp ps4 match .. they just facetank each other...someone a (CW) sent me a video he was all proud he never lost in his 2 tr 2 pally comp never jumped once face tanked everything ..it was so sad and pathetic really it was and that was the best guild on ps4 facing the 2nd best one ..they love thier free broken items that are cheaper then rank 12 13s etc
I can't say it any simpler than... if everyone uses these items those who are BIS playing OP classes become more OP and broken, not less. The only reason anyone thinks they are useful is because they are not having them used against them to greater efficacy by an already imbalanced class and overpowered gear.
The entire point of this discussion was in hopes to get a dev to weigh in on the discussion. However what I get are players sharing painfully obvious *insights* that I've already had in a myriad of discussions on this topic. tbh, I don't care what other players think at this point.
There are essentially 2 issues that everyone keeps discussing as though they are one. Two categories of "broken". 1) Broken gear. 2) Broken classes. For example, in the video I died because a TR was using ring of vision. Not because the GF was. So broken + broken = more broken. Very simple maths people. Secondarily both need to be fixed, however fixing a "class" by using broken gear is the opposite of what should happen.
Imagine if I was playing a saboteur, which is nigh useless at this point, in PVP and someone wore these rings. Suddenly the "fix" for broken SoD from Executioner is punishing people who aren't even using it. Where's the balance there? Like seriously guys, think this stuff through. Fix TR SoD damage, Fix GF burst damage, Fix TR deflect Severity, fix GF shield, Fix dazes that ignore CC immunity. Do NOT make gear that ignores class mechanics as a cheap band aid or a work around. This is what I've said all along.
If an SW uses broken gear vs. a TR, GF, or OP (this mod) using this gear... the TR, GF, OP wins even more easily, not the other way around.
There is NO benefit to newer players except that *some* veteran players hold back the reigns on using broken stuffs. That's it. It's that simple. OP classes benefit the most from broken stuff, BIS player benefit the most from broken stuff, stupid stacked comps benefit the most from broken stuff.
The point, as it were, was... what were the DEVS thoughts on these things.
i fully support any players whos pissed about broken classes since a long time now and use this broken gear.
i dont understand why U still play a broken class like TR when u have choices.
To shed some light on the jumping because this has been mentioned before. Unless we invest in a keyboard and mouse (I wouldn't hence why I have a console and not a PC,) it is very difficult to pull off. In order to jump and cast RoF you need to press 3 buttons simultaneously on the controller plus use your two thumbs to direct it. That's 5 touch points at once.
Now I'm not sure if you can jump and cast encounters on PC but if you can we cant do that either because once you press the button that allows you to jump the encounter bar disappears.
Just thought I'd highlight that as we CW's need to save face haha.
How can balance occur when gear and comps disguise the underlying issue in a class? This is one of the problems with these methods. They cover over true balance with skill-less procs or a team that is otherwise insurmountable. How is fighting this fun for anyone on the other side?
I am a CW on the top of the leaderboard (there are 4 there in total as of now) so we have it pretty good on PS4. For comparison there are also 3 TR's 4 GF's 2 GWF's 2 Pally's and an SW.
On the PS4 at least, skill is still the main factor above broken classes and items. I am sure that will change however we have some pretty toxic PVP guilds that fuel each others ego's so much so that there skill/knowledge of their classes is pretty poor. Fortunately there is little to learn from copy and pasting builds.
For the record, I have not and will not use any broken items. I also don't really care if others do because me knowing I am good and am following my on morale rules, is enough for me (I do however call them out in matches because I love reading their justifications).
IMO I think balance needs to start at the point of defining our class roles again, right now we are asking for for the antibiotics and not the cure.
> i agree 100% u shouldnt balance broken classes with broken gear.
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> i fully support any players whos pissed about broken classes since a long time now and use this broken gear.
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> i dont understand why U still play a broken class like TR when u have choices.
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> I play all the classes, including TR and GF and Pally, as well as DC,SW, CW, GWF, HR. You simply chose to focus on one class as do others who are angered by the class that is most broken atm. I don't understand why you would chose to make this conversation only about me as others have attempted, essentially derailing the most important bit.
well u are right, didnt want to derail it.
so @ Devs, could u stand up and answer OP questions plz?
Normally I like to disagree with you just to hear how eloquently you can express your arguments, or to see that dude sip from his goblet one more time. However, I agree with you 100% on this subject. How about the devs give me a ring of fireball, ring of healing, and a clock of barriers bane to block all incoming damage, just so I can have class abilities that others have as well. While they are at it give me a soul puppet amulet that summons a soulful puppet every 10 seconds.
TR broken?
GF broken?
OP broken?
DC DPS broken?
stamina drain broken?
AP drain broken?
umbush rin broken?
vanish ring broken?
shadowclad broken?
sandys pants broken?
chult last boon broken?
reflect rings broken?
...
as far as i see everything broken, i cant remember a fight without GF and TR.
this is PVP, like it or not
There was a time when the PVP community guild leaders decided to ban these broken items as a guild. We all stopped using them. My guild decides what is "broken" by discussing and voting on gear as it becomes available or widely used.
There are two forms of broken as we've discussed at length. Both categories need to be addressed by the Dev team. Bringing attention to it here is the best way I know how to attempt to reach those who have the power to try and balance classes, and remove gear that creates more imbalance.
As for what you mentioned, All of those things excluding DPS DC, that I've seen, I would call broken excepting perhaps Shadowclad as it is a trade off, if it proccs and you get stealth when you come out of stealth you have zero stacks and are at your squishiest thus you gain a moment of highly defensive capabilities then you become your most vulnerable. I have several shadowclad enchantments, however I've stopped using them as some players might think the invisibility associated the same as the rings.
The problem with gear is... it's simply skill-less and can't be accounted for with skill. A deflect here causing a stun, a procc there causing invisibility, a daily here taking your AP, an at will removing your stamina, a boon there causing you to be rooted. They are utterly without skill and cannot be accounted for with skill. What is the point of that?
I would happily be rid of ALL the gear you mentioned. However classes must be balanced separately from the gear. The logic you continue to use is: Broken classes and gear are the same. It's silly how you lump them in together. They are two separate categories and two separate discussions. If you try to blend them into one discussion you get what you see here... divisive opinions based off the incorrect assumption that broken gear somehow gives better footing against broken classes.